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Questioning The IT Labor Shortage 538

Posted by Hemos from the emigration-immigration-exgrigation dept.
spiel writes "There's a piece in today's NYT which points out the flaws in the arguments for increasing the number of H-1B visas. As one of those "older workers", this puts facts and figures behind what I have long believed." It's an interesing dicussion, although I suspect like most of things, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
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Questioning The IT Labor Shortage More

Questioning The IT Labor Shortage

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  • Do you actually know someone in this situation or are you hypothesizing? I know many people on H-1B working in the Bay Area. One of them is myself. And I certainly don't agree with your observation or hypothesis. Sure, I whine about being a "slave" sometimes, but who doesn't? What you said about that visa is true -- they are tied to your employer and you have to get a new one when you switch jobs. It is an inconvenience, but isn't that big of a deal because if you're any good, you'd find a job in the Bay Area in a second. I've switched jobs once so far and I'm considering moving on again. When I put my resume up on hotjobs.com a couple weeks back, I got 8 calls on the first day. Try treating me "like crap" and I'll be gone in a blink, I don't have to "take it" as you put it. Most countries in the world try hard to attract talents and work hard to prevent brain-drains. America is blessed with reverse brain-drains and people here are complaining. That is very odd, don't you think? Up until high school, I attended public schools in my home country. The taxpayers in my homeland paid for my education while the US economy benifits from it, and you're complaning?
  • There is a shortage of managers that know how to get technical people to come work for them. However, it is not an extreme shortage because there are many instances in which good people are hired away to another company. Obviously the management of that person's new company is a little more clueful.

    When managers of the companies that have good people hired away from them for better pay and better work wonder why it is that these people are leaving them, my response to them is: DUH!

    These are the same companies want H1B visa people which they can shackle to the job.
  • That's true, and I apologize for a hasty response.

    But you're right, there are more issues attached to getting the money for college, even if it isn't exactly $30k/year, which is the point I was trying to make.
  • Sorry, this is a subject I'm sore about... mostly because most people in CS that I know are DEFINITELY arrogant about what it takes to know as much as they do (which is, a combination of brains, effort/dedication, and fortunate living)...

    I do agree, mostly. My nitpicks (and they are minor) are:

    Between Pell grants and working through college, neither of these ways are easy, guaranteed ways to get the money to make it through a good CS program. I can't speak for Pell grants other than I know a lot of PRISONERS get them here, but I do know that pulling off a full-time job before/during college requires a lot of stamina. Again, easier said than done.

    Also, internship/co-op programs are getting very competitive... to the point where it's like trying to get into an Ivy League school. Especially for internships, since companies are not interested in employing a programmer for just 3 summer months. It's much easier to score a f/t job outside of school or training, yet much harder to keep up with both school and a f/t job at the same time.

    -UNNECESSARY RANT-
    I suppose, in the end, I'm speaking out of jealousy. Right now I'm taking a full load senior year at my university, looking to graduate in May, and I'll be happy to be out of CS forever once I get my degree. I've seen none of the riches, fame, or opportunities that they speak of in the news a lot (see the other NYT article on /. that got posted after this). I already did an internship (for free) for a major media company for a whole summer, and since then the only decent job I've gotten was delivering chicken. I'm too focused on school (as I do struggle a lot with keeping focused and organized, as opposed to understanding or learning anything) to become distracted with a professional job DURING school, I have inconvenient circumstances that have prevented me from finding a decent internship in my home area for the past few years (quitting school nor permanently choosing to live near school are acceptable choices to me), and AFAIK this school has no co-op opportunities. Furthermore, from what I know of the tech industry and tech jobs, it's all unappealing enough to turn me off entirely, no matter how skilled or interested I am in the material. 70 hour workweeks, cubicles, and flourescent lights are all horrifying to me. The point? It'll be a sorely missed $80k I spent on college, even though that sheepskin will probably help me out wherever I go.
    -END RANT-

    Anyway, yes it is possible for a lot of people to afford college in the US, but there are no guarantees... and hard work does not equal success all the time. And remember the main topic of this discussion... that if these companies need tech workers so badly, why aren't they training them and hiring them from THIS country?

    To your credit, they do hire lots of people without college degrees, and it is possible to just take it the long way around (although that's admittedly very difficult to pull off, wouldn't you agree) to get the college degree... but my personal bias is that it's bad enough to spend 4 years and $80k schooling for a field I won't want to work for... but even worse to have a job you don't want AND a degree you don't need, and to spend 8 years and $80k doing both at the same time.

    I dunno. Perhaps CS programs just suck lately.
  • This is such a crock! I'm sure companies will go through the whole process of H-1B AND pay them the same rate as a US programmer instead of hiring a US programmer. Because we all know that companies don't care about labor costs. (bzzzz, wrong answer)

    Hmmmm.... (checks salary)... (checks visa stamp in passport)... (checks bonuses)... (checks 1040 form)... I would appear to get paid more than most US programmers.

    Guess they don't care.

    Simon
  • Oh, shut up, mr. troll expert. Why do you assume I'm trying to troll? Now go away.
  • I assure you, when I move to the United States, it will be with the goal (and responsibility) of Citizenship in mind; not
    coming in, taking advantage of and culturally diluting the American way of life.

    We just imported a bunch of Canadians where I work (company closed their office) - and we're all pronouncing "about" like "aboot" now! Damn Canadians! At least they're learning to surf now.

    Jedi Vacquero: We don't need to show you any steenkin' boches!
  • And why is there a shortage of people with experience--it's the old saw of not being able to get a job without a experience and not being able to get experience without a job.

    If you had read my post you would have realized I said competence and not experience. I've interned at two companies the past two years and made a decent amount of money and I am still in college (i.e. I have less than 6 months of work experience), this didn't stop me from being able to turn down internship offers from Intel.

    Most of my friends who have guaranteed offers from the companies they interned with also have little or no work experience besides the classes they've taken and stuff they've done in their free time.

    The problem is that a lot of people believe that once they've learned one technology that they've earned a right to stop learning. Frankly this is B.S.. I learned Java a year ago and mostly from the Internet and was working a well paid job this summer writing Java code. While at this job I picked up Perl and now have reasonable experience with it. The job market is currently tight enough for self-motivated people to gain jobs without needing years of experience as long as ythe have ability.



  • Unfortunately, here in the UK, we've gone from treating education as a necessity to a healthy economy to a commercial product to be sold to as many as possible for as much as possible. Now, you expect that from the tories but we've even been betrayed by so called "socialist" labour. (So sucks to you "communist Europe" man).

    Not strictly accurate. The government (at the time) wanted to decrease unemployment amongst the young, and to be seen to be "doing something", so they made the decision to convert the polytechnics into universities. I'm not sure how to map this directly onto US education concepts, but the basic difference is that a university is an academic institution that can award its own degrees, whereas a polytechnic was more vocational, and franchised degree programmes from external authorities.

    So what we ended up with is a system in which degrees from traditional universities (Oxford, Cambridge, London, a few others) have retained their elite status (as they have the resources and reputation to be very selective in admission and rigourous in examinations) and the ex-polys offering courses in "media studies" or "art history" or other vaguely-defined subjects.

    Because it was so easy to get into a "university", and because education is (quite rightly) preceived as valuable, there was a huge influx of people, but the quality of the average graduate plummeted. Despite their reputation, people of ability from *all* backgrounds have always been able to get into some of the elite UK colleges, which are meritocratic in the extreme (for example, UCL [ucl.ac.uk]) with others such as Durham [dur.ac.uk] admitting people based on their social background.

    As the student population increased, the cost of supporting them while studying went up, also more people weren't working or paying taxes, and of those people, a smaller overall percentage of graduates were able to enter the workforce in graduate-level roles, because rather than studying engineering or whatever (UK Bachelors degrees are typically more difficult than US ones, but fewer UK grads take a Masters, so I guess it balances out) they had studied things that weren't relevant to industry.

    Given this, it makes a good deal of sense to adopt the US system, where people can study whatever they please, so long as they pay for it themselves. The only economically viable alternative would be to shut all the ex-polys, and return a university education to only the most academically able. A third possibility is of course an additional tax on graduates, but the Labour government (currently in power, and responsible for dismantling the grant system and introducing tuition fees) remember the last time the UK suffered a "brain drain" under their rule.

    (I completed a Mechanical Engineering degree in the UK, and worked part time during it).

  • Well, this is a crock.

    First, its 'USA', not 'USia'--or are you saying that the phrase "of America" should be abbreviated "ia", and perhaps not 'oA'? (Note the abbreviation "USofA" or "USoA" have been used in the past in liew of "USA" by people trying to make the same assertion you are making.) And by abbreviating "America" with a lower-case 'a', are you suggesting that "America" the landmass is somehow "inferior?"

    Second, given the history of the name "United States of America", using the term "American" to refer to a citizen of the United States is not unreasonable. Prior to the US Civil War, the US was known as "these united States of America". (Note capitalization--or lack thereof, with the "united".) The federal government governing the various united States located in America really didn't have a name--it was refered to as a matter of course either as the Federal Government, or by an apropos description: "these various united states of America."

    The term "American", thus, is derived from the fact that citizens of the various states (who are refered to first and foremost as members of their local state--so, for example, I'm a Californian) also happen to live in North America.

    Of course things changed after the Civil War. Canadians and Mexicans refer to themselves as such in the same way that Oregonians and Californians do. But the term "American", used commonly to refer to a citizen of the United States (note the "the" preceeding "United") stuck, in part because we still don't really have a name for our Federal Government--just a working description which we capitalize differently.

    Just as soon as we come up with a real name for our country, I'm sure the term "American" will be dropped in liew of the new name...
  • So let's see. He pays taxes, so he is helping to build France. Of course unemployment in France is not 0% so there are a number of French citizens who are contributing less to building up France than this immigrant is.

    So by this logic, as "the people who have built up their country have the right to decide", that means that France should disenfranchise the unemployed and give voting rights to working immigrants who pay taxes. Right?

    I'm not saying that immigrants should automatically be granted voting rights and citizens who don't work should be disenfranchised. What I am saying is that this notion that "taxpayers built France", and thus immigrants who pay taxes shouldn't have any say is illogical as hell.
  • I'd hire you. The reason is that the word Banyan means something to me. Most HR flunkies can't say the same thing. That is why companies need to get a clue and start having technically informed people contribute to the hiring process. It is not a fun job but programmers, particularly tech leads, should sift through resumes an hour a week or month as well as interview prospects. (Or better yet get a decent CTO to help hire.) If not that, HR reps should be instructed to speak with a seasoned techie before they discard resumes with acronyms and names they don't recognize as well as go into interviews with a list of questions prepared by techies. If you left hiring up to HR, Zimmerman couldn't get a job in internet security.
  • $2200 a semester? Do they have transfer papers on the web? :)

    See my other two replies to the replies for this message and see me being idiotically apolegetic. (the original act, not the apologies, are the idiotic part) Although what you did for college requires a lot of dedication, it makes a CS degree look very possible with zero funding.

    That said, when I was 18, I wouldn't have been able to handle that kind of responsibility. Then again, having the money for a high-priced college got me out of that problem. And one would argue greatly over which is preferrable - a college education, or a solid brain with the ability to maturely handle a lot of responsibility. (usually the second isn't necessarily included with the first)
  • Especially when Americans are laid off because, "If the foreigner gets laid off, he will have to leave the country!" I was actually told that when I was laid off! (even though I had more time with the company and an equivolent education)

    I doubt that's the case, though it might be what you're told.

    I'm in a hiring and firing position myself, and when I have to make the tough choices, it's based simply on who fits in best around the workplace.

    Literally, I once kept one guy because the other guy didn't go to company picnics. They were both equally qualified and had similar tenure; the difference was that the guy who went to company picnics had a better attitude about both the company and his co-workers. Going to company parties and stuff is very often symbolic of someone who both likes the company and the people that they spend 40+ hours a week with.

    I say that if there are national or emigrant citizens that can do the job (or are willing to learn), they should get hired first.

    As a Canadian citizen who yearns to emigrate to the United States, I agree fully with you. This is great problem with Canada, and it is symptomatic of one of the many problems that makes me fed up with sending 50%+ of my income to Ottawa with nothing to show in return for my tax monies invested.

    However, I think I may be accused of being a little bit more moderate than you are:

    If there are more jobs, fine hire foreigners. But don't put a citizen in the unemployment line so you can hire a foreigner, that costing the nation more in the end (unemployment, welfare, low moral, crime...) even if your company sees a short term gain.

    Not true. The population of the United States or Canada isn't growing fast enough on its own to maintain the same rate of economic growth as we're used to. Therefore, immigrants are necessary to be new employees and therefore new consumers.

    Immigrants start 18% of all new businesses in Canada; I'm sure the numbers are similar in the US. They're also more likely to attend post-secondary education.

    My problem with immigration is the quality of the immigrants that Canada is allowing in. First off, I know a husband and wife pair who are both British doctors, and they can't immigrate to Canada, because they're not from a "downtrodden" enough country. Canada currently has a shortage of medical professionals (mostly because they complete school, subsidized by the government, then immediately head off to the warmer, freer and greener pastures south of the border). The immigrants that Canada lets in - in fact, embraces with open arms and settlement bonuses ($$) are from all-nature of third-world lands with no employable skills or capability in either of Canada's official languages. Eventually, they get jobs as gas station attendants, hotel chambermaids or convenience store clerks. And yet a pair of British doctors can't get in.

    I'm all for immigration, but I want them to learn the official languages of Canada. I want them to integrate into Canadian society. And I want the preference to be given to those with useable skills prior to those allowed in because they're from third-world countries.

    I assure you, when I move to the United States, it will be with the goal (and responsibility) of Citizenship in mind; not coming in, taking advantage of and culturally diluting the American way of life.

    Hiring foreign help should be a stop gap measure until the nation's population can catch up to the demand, NOT general practice to lower the bottom line or to keep Uncle Joe in the country.

    Without immigration, the economy will not grow, and recession will be the result. Unless everybody starts having lots and lots of children.

    Just choose the immigrants wisely.

  • At least where I went to school, the CS program had a horrible attrition rate for the faculty. We all major'ed in computer engineering instead (more emphasis on broad engineering topics, less on real application). I had to learn everything practical on my own...
  • If domestic companies keep up with this eventually the problem will not just be the not enough US Trained people but what will happen is that the US people will start to leave. Americans in general tend to think that we are immune to the sort of "Brain Drain" that other countries go through, because we're America and who wouldn't want to live/work here. With that attitude in mind companies pay their workers less with not as good benefits all while convincing their employees that they are better off for it.
    "Freedom of speech has always been the abstract red-headed stepchild of the Constitution"
  • I've had a few simillar interviews. Only the current employer actually tested my ability and knowledge.

    I did have one recruitment company ask me around a dozen questions over the telephone to test my knowledge. The recruitment was for a huge company, but the questions were just plain stupid.

    Examples - "Whats the significance of memory address #F0000000". "Whats the difference between Windows and UNIX PCI cards". I failed the test, and therefore wasn't interviewed, because I had no idea what they were asking for, and clearly the person who had set the questions didn't know either. A pity, as I could have gone a long way at that place.

    I also had a long discussion at one interview that indicated that the interviewer knew a bit about RAID and asked me a question on that, as he'd obviously read somethig on it recently. Oh dear! Another failed interview where I failed technically, due to knowing more than the interviewer.

    Hey, this is turning into uk.jobs.d, where I join in the comunal moaning on a weekly basis. And I havn't yet mentioned the 100+ mile trip for an interview that lasted 10 seconds.

  • I was the 'answer guy' at a previous job. It was made worse by my department running telephone support for a certain product. If anything serious went wrong, I was usually the only one who could competently fix it. I used to dread having to leave the office for any reason, as if anything failed the customer would be in a mess.

    The rest of my team started to leave, so I had to also deal with all the other calls as well. Eventually I left as well. I've not fully recovered since.

    The same thing is happening at the new place. I test trading systems, and the people who write the software ask me why the thing isn't working. Arrgghhh! I don't have the time to do anything else!

    I just want a nice sysadmin role somewhere, where I'm in charge.

  • So regulate all that if you must regulate something. Put caps on specific countries if you must. Regulate contracting companies - they DO tend to abusive to EVERYONE, even americans. I have several co-workers that are contractors (they are americans). They cost a small fortune to the client, the contractor himself is not getting rich ($50,000) and they have no choice because they signed contracts that would force them to not work for a competing company for 2 years.

    It sound that the problem you're describing are isolated to a certain type of business. Regulate them, but leave everyone else alone. Must everyone suffer because of a few? There are a lot of legitimate company that need H1Bs, and treat their worker (foreign or otherwise) just fine.
  • I was burning out on college and was offered a job from a company that was desperate to have me come on board (and later when I left them, they were even trying to re-recruit me to come back, and later when my former boss from there took another job, he tried to get me to come join him at his new company). Since then I've gone on to 2 jobs actually at major universities (still no degree) and now I am on my 6th job since college and making more than the CEO here is.

    I learn on the job. I learn online. I learn on the ceramic throne. I would say that some college education is important and can be useful. Much of it was useful in working with people and understanding out other stuff works (for example I took a couple courses in EE and it helped me understand the scope of hardware problems I run into).

    If you are the creative person who doesn't need college to be able to develop cool stuff, you might be good hiring material (especially with some experience). If you are a mindless drone with a CS degree, you might as well move along (but most /. readers don't resemble that remark).

    I think you could get a job at one of those companies. The problem is that the HR mill tends to get in the way. What I would recommend is posting well thought out and intelligent comments on /. and include a link to your resume in your signature. Do similar elsewhere. Do that in addition to the traditional job search functions. Most companies either won't need your skills or won't know how to recognize them. But some do, and you want to match up with them. Don't worry about the others.

    Knowledge growth in a company is what you make of it. Managers generally want stuff done; they are not going to "offer" it to you; They don't pay you to learn stuff; they want it to already be known. Find out what the technological edge your company is exploring is, and go learn more about it, and volunteer to do some extra stuff related to it. One day they just might have you do that.
  • No it was not an as hominem...I never played a sport, neither did I ever state that I received any scholarships (just academic grants). I think you are falling for the big cases that you see on the news and TV.
    "99.9% of the rest of the metriculating students?....lowering of standards?" *Sigh*
    My school and thousands others have minimum high school GPA and SAT scores...anyone (including athletes) who wants to consider enrollment has to meet those standards.

    "Who said no sports in higher education?"
    You did, sir! And I quoteth. "The fact that it's actually a drain on our Education dollars removes any justification whatsoever."SOURCE [slashdot.org]

    Good Day now...no more to hear here.

  • It is just too damn difficult for a working person to decide they want to become an engineer or programmer.

    I just can't agree with this viewpoint. While it's true that there are some courses in the typical CS/IS curriculum that end up weeding out potential candidates from the program, it's not fair to blame the program for demanding excellence from it's students.

    If you're working your way through school, it's going to take longer; that's just the way it is. If you've got a hard course, you can take a lighter load that semester to compensate.

    A C++ class that has 20 hours per week of work does sound a bit excessive, but even so, it's going to produce students who are well versed in the use of the language.

    Dedicated students should be rewarded with better grades. In my own experience, I worked full time, and went to school for about 12 hours a week (4 courses). I spent every night during the week studying and half of my weekend (every weekend) doing schoolwork. You get out what you put into your education. It's unfortunate that those of us who have to pay for it ourselves are at a slight disadvantage, but the hard work does pay off.
  • You are a moron...!!!!

    (Further diatribe omitted to save bandwidth.)

    Perhaps I am a moron; however, your reply to my posting did absolutely nothing to convince me that you're right and I'm wrong.

    I'm not sure where Indian chip fab people come into things. Where, in my original posting, did it refer to them?

    Your complete and utter lack of any ability to divide your thoughts into separate and distinct paragraphs makes me question, in approximate order, your intelligence, the clarity of your thought processes and finally your capability with the English language.

    Perhaps you replied to the wrong message?

    Ignore my brilliance only at your own peril.

  • We just imported a bunch of Canadians where I work (company closed their office) - and we're all pronouncing "about" like "aboot" now! Damn Canadians! At least they're learning to surf now.

    Heheh... Well, my native accent is an Ottawa-area accent, so I sound just like Peter Jennings.

    I spend a lot of time in southeastern Michigan and Western New York since I have large numbers of friends in both those places. Since I hate looking (or sounding) like a tourist wherever I go, I've adopted the general "midwestern" accent to the point that people I meet from there are surprised to find out that I'm from the Toronto area.

    It makes things so much better in restaurants, especially:

    Q: What's the difference between a Canadian and a canoe?

    A: A canoe tips.

    Sounding Canadian can mean your soup is served cold.

  • Actually when you land in Canada you have to pay a landing fee of about $1000 per adult and (I guess here) $200 for children. Also you have to prove that you have enough money to support yourself and the family for six months - for a family of three this means a little over $10,000.

    As you'd indicated earlier in your posting, you were from an Eastern European country.

    For one thing, your command of the English language is excellent; you write better than most people for whom English is a first language.

    However, what you say is only partially true. In your case, yes, this was the routine. Obviously, you came from one of the more "civilized" of the Eastern European countries: Poland or the Czech/Slovak republics, etc., as opposed to having been from someplace like Albania.

    The majority of Canada's new immigrants last year were from China. Human rights issues in China really don't concern me beyond the fact that Canada shouldn't be trading with China if we find their government's behavior reprehensible. Instead, the Canada continues to trade with China, and rather than making the Chinese government bear the costs of their unacceptable human rights infractions, the Canadian government makes me bear them by allowing huge numbers of unqualified Chinese people in, and then giving most of them settlement bonuses. Now, I have no quarrels with the Chinese people: they're human beings, and they see opportunity that they wouldn't have in China. My problem is that more than 50% of my income goes to taxes to fund humanitarian projects that can better be operated in other ways.

    Essentially, the Canadian government makes me pay for the ineptitude and abuses of the governments of countries that I really don't care about.

    As a young Canadian taxpayer who sees my quality of life eroded by the day through stupid socialist policies that pander to everyone but the taxpayer, I'm enraged.

    I'm forced to invest more than 50% of my earnings every pay cycle into the government at all levels, and I have nothing to show for it. I have bad roads, bad schools, bad water, bad health care and the biggest farce of a military this side of Iraq. But, it's reassuring to know that my government spends money instead on schizophrenic foreign policies ("China, you're bad, but we'll still buy stuff from you."), the CRTC which ensures that 40% of everything broadcast by a Canadian radio station is a Tragically Hip song that they've already played three times that day, and giving two airlines permission to become a monopoly and then being surprised when quality of service suffers.

    My government couldn't find its own asshole with both hands and a flashlight. They don't represent me, they don't represent my views, they don't even provide the services that they claim to when they tax me. Now I know what it is to feel raped.

  • great points!

    Exactly; explain to the average Joe, why discovering the Higgs Boson is important, in a way that is more entertaining (=ad revenue generating) than a football game (to him), without being innacurate or blowing potential benefits out of proportion, or jumping the gun (to get the scoop) on the peer-review process.

    And you begin to see the problem, and the fact that there's not really much anyone can do about it. (other than state-controlled press, and a scientist-controlled state).

    Jedi Vacquero: We don't need to show you any steenkin' boches!
  • The other thing is, the "young kids" are MUCH more likely to stay until 9, or come in on Saturdays, to help a project stay on schedule (whose fault is the schedule, really?), while the balding guy has a family, other responsibilities, and NEEDS more money. Comes in at 9, leaves at 5. Never stays later. Never reads up on Java or C# on his own time in the evenings, he's working on his 69 Camaro in the garage, or reading to his kids.

    What's more attractive to an employer?

    Jedi Vacquero: We don't need to show you any steenkin' boches!
  • American and French citizens have a right to decide immigration policy.

    If that's what you were trying to say, you should have said that in the first place, instead of going off on this wierd-ass tangent about "taxpayers" and "building this country."
  • People WORKING in North America.... That mostly did not study there......

    The United States attracts the best talent, both in faculty and in it's graduate schools. Those Nodel Laureates also provide a powerful incentive for the best to come here to study.

  • There's got to be more to the story than what you say.

    No there doesn't. You just have to read what I said. The pertinent part was Associates in Electronic Engineering Technologies. That's a two year degree, versus your bachelor, a four year degree.

  • Oh my god, get over yourself.

  • you couldn't live in a shoebox eating shit in Silicon Valley for $50k/yr.

    Jedi Vacquero: We don't need to show you any steenkin' boches!
  • I don't disagree with you; I am opposed to unions, however...

    I've found that usenix/sage does not, in any way, tend to 'prefer' it's members. What do I get out of my usenix/sage membership? I get a common point of reference, and I get to know what other admins make, what issues they deal with, and it gives me some more solid ground to stand on when negotiating.
    I do *not* expect them to 'go to bat' for me in any way at all (like unions do). I don't expect them to DO things for me, other than to continue to bring together admins from all over. In this way, we all share our experiences and knoweldge, without actually dictating who does what.
  • I don't disagree with you; I am opposed to unions, however...

    I've found that usenix/sage does not, in any way, tend to 'prefer' it's members. What do I get out of my usenix/sage membership? I get a common point of reference, and I get to know what other admins make, what issues they deal with, and it gives me some more solid ground to stand on when negotiating.
    I do *not* expect them to 'go to bat' for me in any way at all (like unions do). I don't expect them to DO things for me, other than to continue to bring together admins from all over. In this way, we all share our experiences and knoweldge, without actually dictating who does what.
  • One major problem with IT workers is that they simply don' tknow what is reasonable and what is not. They do not communicate enough with each other. THIS is what is needed. Not a labor union.

    When I'm gray and balding, I would *expect* to be replaced if someone younger, who wants longer hours and will work for less can do my job!

    By the time I'm gray and balding (well, I'm balding already..) I plan to be working in a job such that nobody without the experience I have could DO my job. So the only replacement I would fear is from an equal.

    Replacement by younger workers is what happens when you become complacent and sit on your ass.

  • One thing you might ask yourself (and I may just get flamed here) is why are you older and not yet in a senior management role?

    Consider yourself completely flamed.

    I have never seen worse than what you have written here. The truth is that technical aptitude and interests determine who is suited for a senior management role, and who is not. A programmer may be one of the best in the world, yet be totally unsuited for a supervisory or management role. Look at Albert Einstein, for example - acknowledged as one of the greatest men of the century, but totally unsuited for any sort of management position. Forcing such people into management roles is one of the greatest sins that a company can commit. You, as an employer are serving your company poorly indeed if you really have these attitudes.

    Fortunately there are more mature companies that recognize the value of true technical excellence, and the fact that it doesn't come at age 22. The IBM's and Xeroxes of the world have dual ladders where individuals can advance their career either through gaining technical or management skills. I am sure that once the technical field of computing matures they will see the advantage of what REAL companies do to keep their best and brightest working in the way that benefits both the comapany and the indvidual most.

    Look at the recent interview with Brian Kernighan on /. - do you REALLY think he is a floater because he hasn't advanced to senior management? Or is the answer that he has continued to contribute because he has found a job where he can do what he wants.

    You (an I think a lot of the high-tech industry as well) have a LOT to learn when it comes to evaluating people.

  • I mean, face it, nothing in America compares to Grenoble or Cambridge in mathemathics, physics and such scientific stuff that has no potential revenue at all.

    Total baloney. Over the last 30 years 80% of Nobel Prizes have been awarded to people working in North America.

  • There you go, looking at California, and calling that the USA.

    First of all, if you have a problem with the food, it means you haven't tried. We consider ourselves a melting pot of all cultures, which means you can get food from just about any culture. You have to look though, the best restaruants are small mom and pop operations, and they don't have an advertising budget other then word of mouth. Often the store looks dirty, but the food is wonderful. There are many good Mexican restaruants around, even in Minnesota I can find a couple, but if you head to Taco Bell you won't find it, even though Taco bell is the dominate player in the Mexican resteraunt buisness.

    Don't forget too that you can cook your own. Supermarkets in the US are unrivialed with anything in the world. Some do better then others, but for most of your staples (rice, flour, etc) they can't be beat. Small specialtiy stores (meat markets, etc) make up the difference where they exist. Learn to cook your own food! American cooks tend to love tinkering with the old world recipies, and the ingreadiants to do so are avaiable, if you just try.

  • ok i was with you until the last point.. (Score:3)

    by ebbv ( 34786 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:17AM (#798976) Homepage

    unions are totally unnecessary. if you are working for a company that is abusing you then leave it and find a better job. that is your way of fighting back. it's not like there are 500 of us at most companies, and the closing of one office is going to ruin a whole town. i am from and still live in michigan, so i know all about the auto workers and blah blah blah..

    anyway, no, unionizing is not necessary. if your job sucks, leave it and find one that doesn't.

    that's what i did, now my biggest gripe with my job is i get bored a lot.
    ...dave
  • 1. Theorem. For any given number of computers, placed in any organisation, there is always at least one rational reason for buying more. The same thing happens with IT workers. They are providing job for each other.
    2. Nobody knows and there are no means to determine, how many IT workers (or any kind of other people or things) counry actually needs.
    3. Many US companies attracting foreign workers suffers from overqualification. When they needs regular coder, they find out that they can hire analyst for the same money. But good analyst can be bad coder.
    4. It is impossible to grow programmers in few months, but it is possible to print more dollars, and then force others to use it with help of army, navy and politics.
    5. We in USSR had similar experience. We has had one of the best intelligence services in the world. So some stupid guys in government decided that it is easier to steal designs of electronic chips than to spend money on inventing them. They stole thousands of designs. But the whole industry could not evolve beyond 80286.
  • The most common thing I see is those people who have families or want to work fewer hours move into management (for better or worse for those managed by them) positions where they're still somewhat technical, just not on "the front line."

    Just because someone has the requisite technical skills for IT does not mean that they have the people skills needed to manage others. In fact, my experience is that the majority do not. There are exceptions of course.

  • NTLug's one of the largest LUGs in the world. In Dallas, you probably can throw a rock in any direction and hit a Linux user of some sort. Many don't think their home tinkering is applicable in the workforce- traditionally, it isn't. So, they usually don't mention it on their resume (I always do so. I know it- why can't I mention it? Just because I didn't have formal training in college or at a training firm? HMPH! I learned more outside of my classes than in them!) Combine that with the fact that Bynari probably didn't do an advertising blitz or go with any major placement agencies that would have gave the positions they were trying to fill exposure. Not that I blame them for that- it's ferociously expensive to do just that. I only find a problem when they complain that there's a lack of skilled Linux developers. If they were using this as an excuse for getting H1-B visa employees; I'd be livid about it.

  • IT Shortages, they are everywhere! (Score:3)

    by F'Nok ( 226987 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:26AM (#798989)
    One of the reasons America has so many shortages of professionals is the high cost of education!
    Lets compare...
    A year in American University: 30,000+ US Dollars
    A year in Australian University: 4,000 Australian Dollars (2,500 - 3000 US dollars)

    Not only that, but here the government has a loan scheme, where they pay for you to goto University, and you pay them back later, NO INTEREST!

    Factor in how fast the IT industory is expanding and ofcourse there are shortages!
    BIG SHORTAGES!

    Another factor is that accreditation.
    I am very capable with most aspects of IT, yet because I have not yet finished my degree, I can't get a good job, yet, with these shortages, I should have no prob! Employers are also too stubborn!

    Next take in the 'resistance' factor, where many businesses refuse to grow with the rest of the IT world, how many businesses do you know running Linux?? That atleast have a Linux computer in a dark corner so they can atleast SEE the tech before they reject it?? Not many!

    There are so many factors contributing, and no-one will take any responsibility and no-one is trying to fix the problem.

    Only this year have they finally started integrating the courses here with the industory, to help knockout the transition period (from student to employee) because the change is big!


    - There is no work, there is no work...
    - Damn, it worked for Neo!
    -

  • Re:Call me a commie if you must (Score:4)

    by boing boing ( 182014 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:58AM (#798992) Journal
    I don't think you know exactly what an H1-B Visa means: -The "employee" can only work at the company sponsoring their visa -There is little to no chance that they can get citizenship any quicker than just applying themselves -A company can decide at any point that if they don't want the H1-B that they can send them back This has the effect that these people are not given any real opportunity and are scared to ask for raises etc, because they can be sent back to their country at any time with no job. That is why some people call it slave labor. I don't think anyone would complain if these people were granted citizenship and did not live in a state of fear. The new citizen would feel empowered enough to be paid his/her fair worth and would not be undercutting others out of fear.
  • What a f'kng idiot.

    For one thing, dope, it may have escaped your notice, but it is, in fact, possible to get a job and get rich without having gone to Oxford. Indeed, some people have achieved it without a university degree at all!

    And on the other hand, you might want to do a web search on the subject of "alumni preferences" before you assume that having generations of forebears at the same school doesn't matter in the American meritocracy. Three words: George Dubya Bush.

  • I will name a school (Score:3)

    by tilly ( 7530 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:28AM (#799000)
    Dartmouth College.

    I went to grad school there.

    As you say, whenever their football team beats Harvard, donations go up. (They make more in donations than tuition, and that is saying something.) The education provided is quite good, but behind the scenes people are aware which side the bread is buttered on.

    Of course they are not very open about it. I understand that a lot of schools who are really known for their football teams are truly a lot worse. But coming from a Canadian school the contrast struck me.

    Cheers,
    Ben

  • Linus Torvalds' age (Score:3)

    by opus ( 543 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @05:01AM (#799003)
    > take Linus Torvalds, for example; he's well under 30

    Actually, Linus Torvalds is 30. His birthday is December 28, 1969.

    --

  • Technology workers are... a group of working class people who are foolishly squandering their powerful position in the labor market by not unionizing.

    Bullshit. If there is a labor shortage, then that means I can get up and leave if I'm being mistreated and have antoher job like *that*. <snaps fingers> Unions were necessary in the past; today they are nothing more than an old boy's club which drives up the prices on automobiles, aggravates our school systems and generally causes havoc wherever it goes. Unions (in their current form) should be illegal.

  • <sarcasm>We need more imported CEO's, too! You should see what the cost of labor is to get one. It is ridiculous, and an obvious sign that the specialized training required to be a CEO is just not being taught in schools. My own company has only 5 executive VP's out of its 15 employees. Our product just won't ship until we get more 'players' with leadership, moxie and backseat driving.</sarcasm>

    Sarcasm aside, there are a few other things that the NYT didn't mention. First, the surplus they talk about was early on a product of the crash in biotech, who they lump as 'science guys'; later, it includes the recession, too (which hit middle management harder than any of us). Second, there is a big problem getting good coders.

    They are treated terribly by their school peers and the media. In a previous job I occasionally dealt with reporters, and they are universally either Old Media snobs who see computer people as the dork stereotype, or New Media snobs who actively look down on 'mere techies' as mere servants (ignorant of the true nature of lit crit) who maintain the Internet they built.

    And high schools do suck. They insist on mandating 4 years of gym and English. They move everyone in lock step through the grades, grading you more on attendence than performance. If you do try to learn, you are ridiculed by your fellow students. And if you learn past the all-important Lesson Plan, you are ridiculed by the teacher, too. Teachers are more worried with telling you what heroes they are and complaining about their pay than they are with actually teaching you something. I know this isn't true everywhere, but ask yourself what percentage of classes fit this stereotype. Mine is about 75-80%-- but your mileage may vary. Anything over 25% should be an emergency-- but the big argument right now is if anything needs to be done at all.

    </rant>

  • so report the "gross misuse" to the INS and stop bitching. If the employer lied on the application he broke the law and will be punished accordingly.

    I am sure there is misuse, just like there are people marrying americans just for the green card. So, if there is a problem with the H1B situation at all, it might be with the enforcement.

    I for one, refuse to judge an entire program based on the few that abuse it...

  • Re:1996 data? -?? (Score:5)

    by tytso ( 63275 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @05:02AM (#799013) Homepage
    The key is that they WILL NOT pay a US tech what they need to survive.. $50K to start? Hell yes, that is the low end... you try and raise a family on $50K.

    I've got news for you. $50k is the median salary for a family in the U.S. That's right, if you have two children and earning $50k/year (sometimes that's with two earners together bring in that much, with latchkey kids who come home with no one to greet them or supervise them after school), you are very squarely in the middle class in the United States. Statistically, 50% of the families will be earning more than you, and 50% of the families will be earning less.

    Comments about how $50,000 as a starting salary is "not enough for a US tech to survive" is the sort of things which cause the rest of the country to regard us as spoiled brats. And you know, perhaps they're right.

    The New York Times did a case study of 4 "middle-class" families and how they worked to make ends meet, and what their dreams and aspirations were. It was entitled "The American Middle, Just Getting By", and it was published on August 1, 1999 (front page of section 3). I strongly recommend that techies either download it from the NY Times web page [nytimes.com] (for $2.50), or go to the library and look at it in the archives (which is better 'cause it's free and the NY Times archives doesn't have the color pictures that went with the story). It's guaranteed to give you a better perspective about how the rest of the country lives. Non U.S. techies I suspect will; also find it revealing.

  • OK, you might want to hire people with huge degrees but for what I saw, even as a Prof, I learnt most of my job on the fly, where it was the most challenging and valuable.
    I had an interview with an American company, last year, andthe guys kept asking me theoretical questions which I *do* hate.
    When working with another american company I got classified amongst the "experts" so, it just depends on who leads the interview as it works when you get interviewed by somebody who has the same culture as you but not in another case.
    We are quite different, not especially better or worse than one another, you know ?
    --

  • Re:Oh yeah there's a shortage -Bwah Ha (Score:5)

    by avdp ( 22065 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:31AM (#799017)
    As an H1-B worker (and no, I am not indian, not that there is anything wrong with that...), I have to tell you - you have no idea what you are talking about.

    INS requires that the employer pays at least 90% of prevailing wages for the position. So there definetely is NO sweatshop conditions here. You are in no way required to live in employer-provided housing (in fact, I don't know any employer that even offers housing!) and as far as being kicked out of the country when the visa expire, that is the whole point of being a temporary non-immigrant worker isn't it? So I really don't know what your point is.

    Are there contracting companies abusing the H1B laws? Probably. But they are breaking the law (feel free to report them) and in now way represent the majority of the H1B workers. I understand it is tempting to look at some abuse and say H1B is bad, but you should know better.

    As far as shortage of IT workers, well, you can argue that there is no such thing. But I would reply to you that there is a shortage of qualified IT workers. That's right. This field is fast changing. You have to keep your skills up to date.

    Lastly, I'll just say this: slashdot is not a US-only website. People from all around the world read this stuff. And the biggoted comments you and others have been writing on here are disgusting. Should I judge all americans based on your one comment (like you seem to judge all H1Bs based on a few)?

  • Little Green Men (Score:3)

    by Alioth ( 221270 ) <no@spam> on Thursday September 07, 2000 @05:03AM (#799019) Journal
    I find this debate sad and amusing at the same time.

    Here you have Slashdotters who get all outraged about the DMCA et al. yet are quite happy to trample on us poor filthy stinkin' rotten furrriners (as they say around here). What an incredible double-standard.

    Firstly, I'm in the gunsights of most of this group. Not only am I just a young puke, but I'm a foreign one at that, in the USA, on a visa (L-1 not H1-B, but that's not the point).

    In the company I work for, I do not see any of the problems that everyone alludes to. Firstly, my company MUST, by law, pay me the going rate. They cannot pay me less than an equivalent US worker. (In fact, with my International Service Allowance, I am paid more that my immediate co-workers with the same experience). Where I work, I have seen no evidence that foreigners are treated any different to their US-born (not US-indigenous - we only have ONE so-called "native Indian" working here, and she's only half-native) counterparts.

    Some complaints about foreign workers are somewhat valid - I wish some of my fellow foreigners spoke better English - but I'm willing to give and take, work with them, and understand them. For someone who can understand C++, Perl, Java, Linux, and the Windoze NT GINA module, it really *isn't* that hard to do. I don't complain about it. After all: how many Americans speak foreign languages that well? I have met very few US citizens who can speak any foreign language (and Spanish would be useful down here). It's like the old joke:

    What do you call someone who speaks many languages? Multilingual.
    What do you call someone who speaks only one language? American!

    What I see here is mainly thinly veiled prejudice. I dare any one of you people whineing about foreigners/young people (and even worse!) young foreigners to actually say all this to my face. In the anonymity of a Slashdot comment, it's easy to slag off your fellow HUMANS.

    That's right -- the immigration process *is* dehumanizing. Here I am, being called an "alien". I don't in fact come from somewhere in the vicinity of Alioth, I come from planet Earth. Strip off the skin - whether it's white, yellow, black or brown - and we are all exactly the same underneath.

    Can't people understand that the United States is *built* on immigration? The cultural mix is what made America what she is today. Friends back home - in fact, I used to say this myself - say that the US has no culture. In the time I've been here I have learned that the US has an incredibly rich culture. Most of the world is represented here!

    I don't intend to stay in the US forever but it's certainly given me a new (and much more positive) opinion of people who immigrated to MY home country.

  • What companies value (Score:3)

    by Minupla ( 62455 ) <`moc.liamg' `ta' `alpunim'> on Thursday September 07, 2000 @05:03AM (#799023) Homepage Journal
    OK, I'm a Canadian IT worker. I'm currently looking at job offers from the states. I've got 5 yrs of experience. The offers I'm getting start at about 80K, for companies with names like Electronic Arts, among others.

    My observations:
    1) The US is a great place to look for work *after* you have some cool experience to your name. You need to have done something if you want the good offers, because there's so many people that if you don't have the experience getting the interesting projects that intice other employers to give you the cash is hard.

    2) They like to see someone who has been tinkering before they started getting paid for it. Geeks who were in it since they were 10 are more interesting then people who became geeks after reading about how much money there is in computers.

    3) There are jobs out there for >30s, they're just different ones. I didn't get one of them and someone came to me afterwards and said "frankly we liked you, we thought you were great technically but we really want someone over 30". They're just different. More planning and leadership, less "what's the second byte in this TCP packet mean?".

    4) It really helps to have a cool project under your belt. Something every second interviewee hasn't done.

    I did this 2 yrs ago as well, best offer was 45k. What a difference a couple of years of experience makes.

    Also it should be noted that it is much more of a pain in the butt for a US company to hire a forien (even Canadian) worker. I know I compete at a disadvantage vs US workers for this reason.

    Just thoughts for what they're worth.
    ----
    Remove the rocks from my head to send email
  • you need to go back to school because it is you who doesn't understand what you are talking about (nice to see you learned that charming way union members communicate, though :)

    Yes, unions do get higher wages and better working conditions for their members, that is absolutely true, and that's why you loved the union. But unions accomplish this feat by

    • creating unemployment for other workers who are not in the union. If the highway budget is spent on union workers, it doesn't stretch as far in terms of employing more people. Furthermore, since prices are higher, it doesn't make sense to take on as many projects. Therefore, not only are fewer people employed, but less money is spent, i.e. less money gets distributed to workers. Unions are bad for workers.
    • By increasing the prices of labor, unions increase the prices of the products. This also harms workers, other workers whose paychecks don't stretch as far with the higher prices. Unions are bad for consumers.

    Anticipating your response: no, the higher prices charged by union workers do not get made up in higher productivity. If that were true, we wouldn't need strikes and laws to protect unions because every employer would want to employ them, or the employers that did would win in a competitive market.

    In an economy with unions, yes, try to get in one: it's legalized robbery, and you get to keep the loot. But in the voting booth, vote against them.

  • It always amazes me that people act as though the interests of the foreign workers is irrelevant. It's all about me, me, me. We have it pretty damn good here. So what if foreign workers will drive down our wages a bit? It's drive up their wages a *lot.* That's why they're willing to come over here. More to the point, it'll benefit the rest of society because prices for IT services will be cheaper.

    I have to dissagree.

    First, draining India's best brains does not do much for India or the wages of those who stay there. Money sent back home can help, but nothing helps India more than people who work to improve things there first hand.

    Second, everyone should look after their best interests without infringing on the rights of others. Companies are importing these people as SLAVE LABOR. They noticed that they can press them into situations that violate US labor laws out of fear of deportation. This should not be tollerated.

    Third, people notice when they are steped on. Garbage in Garbage out. You don't think these folks really give a damn about their oppressors, do you?

    That said, unions do suck. Enforcement of current laws should be adequate.

  • H1B Visa "need" is huge fraud (Score:3)

    by swb ( 14022 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @05:06AM (#799029)
    The H1-B need is one of the biggest frauds perpetuated by corporate America.

    I'm not questioning a shortage of IT workers with specific skills, what I question is the desire of Corporate America to supply itself with guest workers.

    One of the PRIMARY principals of the capitalist economic model is supply and demand. When demand is high and supplies shrink, COST is supposed to increase. In other words, if business decides that computer skills are important and the pool of skilled workers shrinks, the COST of those workers is supposed to increase until the wages paid for those workers is high enough to attract more workers into the field.

    Unfortunately our friends on Wall Street only want to play the capitalism game with their customers, and not with their suppliers. Instead of pushing wages higher, offering paid training to non-IT workers interested in a high-wage job or other things that involve dollar costs they've decided to skip capitalism and instead import guest workers.

    Meanwhile, they're extremely eager to get Congress to enact all kinds of trade restrictions the MINUTE foreign businesses want to export products or services to the US or they start to hurt local profit margins.

    If US businesses want more computer workers and they're so important to their business processes, THEN TREAT THEM THAT WAY. Pay huge salaries. Bonuses. Stock Options. Cars. Window Offices. Secretaries. Free training programs to get "obsolete" IT workers or even other intelligent people into the IT field and up to speed on the tech that their business needs.

    In other words, throw money and prestige at IT people the SAME WAY YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR MARKETING DROIDS FOR YEARS! Part of the problem is that many businesses are controlled by marketing dorks who think that marketing is the most important thing in the whole world and that they need to protect their own. Unfortunately the business world has decided that technology is also critical, and they need to start sharing the wealth/power/privilege with the IT class.

    The social problems with immigration I think are also great. If you move US workers into high-paid IT jobs you move US workers out of less-well-paid jobs, which creates demand and opporunity for people working further down on the food chain. In other words, you end up creating opportunity for the underemployed and underprivileged.

    By allowing immigrants to take skilled jobs you prevent that opportunity movement, AND you create opportunities for the new workers to become permanent residents, who then bring in family members who compete for low-skilled jobs with the same people who would have otherwise move up.

  • Are you serious? "Hard Working Americans", with the exception of the Native Americans that my rather dishonorable and shameful ancestors here hunted down, are all descended from IMMIGRANTS. Yep, every last one of us. (again, except the N.A.s) Do you remember hearing about America "The Melting Pot" in grade school? Or how about the statue of Liberty-- "Bring us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses" (please forgive me if I misquote!). That is how this country is built. As an american, I say let 'em all in, dammit! Anybody who wants in! Make this country really FREE again! And let it work the other way, too-- because with all the stupid laws here, I'm thinking about leaving.

    I may be a descendant of a lot of conquering buttheads, but I am most certainly descended from immigrant stock. And so are you. (Assuming you're not a native american)
  • I know for a fact that many companies do not use the H1-B correctly. Just because the INS "requires" proper compensation, doesn't mean it happens. Several jobs back, I had an employer that was trading stock options for decent salaries- and it looked like a good deal, up until they blew their IPO all to hell. This company also had several H1-B visa employees. I don't think all of them had stock options (though they were appropriately entitled to them...). One of my good friends left as soon as he had his green card to work in a better work environment for dramatically more pay. Don't believe everything that the people are telling you about it. There's no real shortage of workers- just that the companies whining about a shortage have unrealistic expectations (Such as number of years of experience that imply a lack of understanding of how long something has been in existance, etc.) and can't fill the positions because of the same.

    I'm not against H1-B, only it's gross misuse- which, is what is going on here!
  • Recently I realised that at 30, I was quickly turning into an "older worker". sometimes in the bid to save money, the older workers are looked upon as a drag on the budget. they take more vacation, more insurance, more pay, and generaly don't take as much crap as younger workers looking to make a good impression. Anyone who works in a large corporation knows that skill set is not a top priority for upper management. Not having those skills themselves makes them un-qualified to recognise ability in someone else. why not fire the 10yr vet, before he can retire, and hire some fresh faced MCSE out of school, at half the pay, then find out 6 months later that he is full of shit. It happens. Believe it. Keeping your skills curent is not that hard, but the level of ass kissing required to maintain your position, not to mention climb, is unbearable.

  • The West Coast median salary for experienced software engineers was $71,100 in 1999, up only 10 percent (in constant dollars) from 1990. This pay growth of about 1 percent a year suggests no labor shortage.

    I don't think that suggest that there are not much "imported" workers. I mean, lets face it, I live in Canada and I am making MUCH less money than that. And that's withouth counting that I actually make Canadian $$ as opposed to US$$.

    That's how the US based company can bring outsiders working for them. So I don't think that this argument stands.
  • Speaking as someone who was on a H1-B for about a month (until my green card came through):

    Yes, the minimum salary specified by the INS for a particular position is quite low, and companies are happy to pay that. But the company that sponsored my H1B paid everyone like shit, and that didn't change until I quit.

    However, my current employer has more H1B workers than my previous employer (I was the only one) and salaries here are much higher for everyone. Remember that we foreigners (at least the H1B candidates) aren't idiots, and we can tell the difference between an H1B sponsor offering 40k and an H1B sponsor offering 70k as well as any red-blooded American. Result: companies that pay better get first pick of the H1B candidates, just like they do for US residents.

    --
  • Oh I agree completely. However it was made clear that this is in fact TRUE for ALL institutions, a point that I disagreed with.
    I'm not sure about your "real focus" point on education. You have to ask the question of the type of press involved. If an institution develops a new process of engineering and publishes a paper on it, why would the national press be interested in it? Only scientific circles give a damn abou it. If it is trully revolutionary, you can be sure that the college's PR dept will DEFINETLY tout its own horn. My college for instance had a huge sports program, that brought millions into the school. Its the entertainment. Many students complained about the budget but failed to read of the press releases put out by the school and on their website. What students/the community did not see where the numerous talk shows/books/papers/documentaries that their professors wrote/starred on. Its true, that maybe sports should not have all the limelight, however it is what brings the dough in.

  • Amen! You described my situation perfectly. It must be just a case of bad timing.

    God knows I am getting REALLY tired of hearing some of the younger folks on /. drone away about "you over 30 guys should quit bitching and keep up with the technology". <crotchety grandpa mode> I have Forgotten more languages and technologies than you will ever learn, Sonny </crotchety grandpa mode>

    The ugly truth for many in the over 30 tech crowd is that the things that should make us very valuable to employers are driving them away: experience with learning new technologies, many successful and failed projects under our belt (never underestimate the educational value of a failure), a history with the technology, a love of technology apart from (or in spite of) the payoff, and a keen sense of what will and will not work.

    Why they don't like us:
    - we tell them their half-assed ideas really ARE half-assed and cite specific historical examples to back it up
    - we do value our families and "off" time. Why the heck else are we working? To line a CEO's pocket and to get that ever so infrequent "attaboy"?
    - we love the technology and have been into it since before it was "cool" to be a techie. We were the weirdos they couldn't understand and couldn't get along with in high school, and still can't.
    - we do complain when we find out that some kid fresh out of a tech school, with no real problem solving skills, no real people skills, no real understanding of the foundations of the technology, and no knowledge of the problem domain come in and make MORE than we do!

    I could go on and on, but just read the other "hey we are over 30" posts and you will get the idea. The above poster got it right: for most of us older tech worker the biggest problem is our timing; we were born on the wrong side of the boom... the boom we helped create.

    Sigh!

    IV
  • Nope. H1-B's are not about immigration - they are about supplying corps with lots of young, underpaid workers, and keeping programming salaries down, too. I'm all for immigration, but H1-B's don't keep the "talent" (I put talent in quotes because I've worked with a few H1-B's in my day, and I was underwhelmed), they supply training for other countries such as India, and then send 'em back to their country in a few years. I'm all for PERMANENT immigration, but that temp shit has got to go. Those folks are holding down your salary and my salary, and then, when the corps have used them up, they get sent back, and then they will be begging for more H1-B's. If the corps weren't such pieces of shit, they'd be asking for EXTENSIONS to the H1-Bs that are here, or giving out green cards to those that are here...but no, see, the H1-B's that are nearing their end of term are wising up, and asking for more pay, etc...the corps want new, fresh, naive, H1-B's! The USA was built on immigration, not temp workers...if you bring people here to work, they ought to be given the opportunity to stay here, I say. The current system is about screwing both the U.S. citizen and the foreign national and the corps reaping all the benefit.

  • Where did you get your numbers? (Score:3)

    by brokeninside ( 34168 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @05:15AM (#799062)
    A year in American University: 30,000+ US Dollars
    A year in Australian University: 4,000 Australian Dollars (2,500 - 3000 US dollars)

    Most US schools are quite a bit cheaper than 30K per year. Especially, if one starts at a junior college and transfers to a four year university. When I was at Wright State University (back in 1990), the cost was US $90 per credit hour, which makes 3 quarters of 18 credit hours something like 5k (books and dorm not included). However cheap that might be, I dropped out and only finished a two year degree from Sinclair Community College where the tuition for in county residents was $30 per credit hour.

    Typically only private schools charge those figures over 10k. Also, most (not all) of the big name schools in the states are state universities which means that residents of that state will pay little for the education while folks from other states will pay through the nose, so in those instances you might have someone paying big bucks for a sheep-skin, but when you consider they could have moved to the state, worked for a year to get residence status and saved tens of thousands, I'm not very sympathetic.

  • The H-1B (and more recently abused J-1) were not
    meant to be immigration channels, although
    both employers and employees are
    using about 90% of them as such. This leads to
    abuses of immigrants, employers, and competing
    Americans all around. Recognize reality,
    and treat it appropiately.

  • Re:No shortage of IT workers.. (Score:3)

    by vr ( 9777 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:43AM (#799069)
    Try instead: ...but a shortage of inexpensive IT workers.

    You're right about that, but that's just because all the incompetent IT workers demand too much money, and are actually paid too much money thanks to incompetent management (which there is also a shortage of, as mentioned in another post).

    vr

  • Absolutely (Score:5)

    by tilly ( 7530 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:43AM (#799070)
    It sickens me to see people complaining about immigrants labour and unwilling to think about the factors that make it so economical.

    When I look at people like Linus Torvalds and Abigail (Perl programmer) I am reminded that what built the USA was the willingness to accept the best and brightest from everywhere else.

    Now here is my proposal:
    1. No or few limits on how many may work on immigrant visas.
    2. The original sponsor must be put up a bond up front for all immigration fees for the sponsoring period, regardless of whether the immigrant is still working for them.
    3. Immigrants once in this country should be free to seek any job they want.

    Before people say I am crazy, think about it. Under this plan hiring an immigrant costs more. You have to pay a salary that competes with other employers, and you have to pay immigration fees as well as a sunk cost.

    Your willingness to pay is sufficient proof that the person is good and you truly cannot be fill it with an American. As long as jobs go begging, the US is willing to skim the cream of the crop. Very little bureaucracy required. It just works...

    Cheers,
    Ben
  • $50K isn't that great if you have to live in an area with a high cost of living, which happens to be where many of the tech jobs are. I could make substantially more money in New York City or Silicon Valley, but my standard of living would decrease.
  • A labor shortage is... an inability to find workers who will work unlimited unpaid overtime for extremely low wages.

    H-1B visas are... a way to create a class of workers who don't have the same constitutional rights (or what's left of them) as the average American citizen and will be beholden to the companies that hire them not only for their job but for their continued residence in the US.

    Before I start I guess I should proclaim that I am a student on an F-1 visa and if I do end up wotking here it will be on an H-1B visa.

    Now here goes. There are several indicators that there is a labor shortage in IT for competent developers.
    1. In the past five years college graduation rates for computer science have been relatively flat (addmissions are up though). This means that in a time of the biggest boom in IT jobs in history there hasn't been an increase in supply only an increase in demand.
    1. Interns make real money. In other fields of endeavor people intern for free while Computer Science interns aren't only paid but sometimes get stock options (e.g. Cisco interns). From my experience $3000 ~ $4000 a month plus travel and housing expenses is fast becoming the norm. If this isn't an indication of shortage then what is?
    1. Even with all the generous packages many companies are having difficulty finding
    2. competent developers and are having to either relocate entire departments overseas or fill them with foreign born workers. The company I worked for this summer was having difficulty finding developers for their large scale, distributed applications and this has nothing to do with poor work conditions. Everybody there set their own hours (foreign or otherwise even interns), some telecommuted and showed up once a month to the office, the pay was generous (by indust ry standards [careerjournal.com]) and the work was fun. Yet HR is constantly struggling to fill jobs and people are given several thousand dollar bonus for recommending friends.
    1. There is a perception that the IT pool of workers has increased but this is primarily due to the fact that a ever since the 'net boom there has been an increasing pool of unskilled/semi-skilled workers (HTML jockeys, Javascript whizzes, SQL lords with no DBA knowledge, Visual Basic dukes) while the supply of
    2. real developers has remained stagnant or dropped. Skim the resumes on Monster.com or Geekfinder or any of those other sites and the amount of people with the aforementioned trivial skills is large but those with experience in writing C/C++/Java, DBAing Oracle/DB2/Sybase, creating distributed components in COM/CORBA/EJB, etc is relatively small.
    From my experience most of the foreigners being hired usually have M.Sc's,Ph.D's or years of experience doing serious development before being hired in the U.S. This means they usually make more money than the trivial skillset IT workers (HTML/Javascript kiddies) and this is beginning to create a xenophobic cult in the IT industry who feel they should unionize, save their precious jobs and get the foreigners out.



  • By establishing common standards, a guild system could be of benefit to foreign and domestic workers, as well as the public at large and employers who are willing to pay for the excellent service they receive.

    In principle this might be true. In practice this isn't how these things work. Unions and guilds tend to promote the self-interest of their current members. That self-interest lies in restricting the supply of workers.

    You can see this in the ferocious opposition of Unions to immigration, free trade, and the consistent preference for measures that would restrict the supply of workers in their field. This is a big reason they support restrictive liscencing laws, many times unrelated to the actual job at hand. It's why they support minimum wage laws, to keep unskilled workers from competing for jobs.

    An IT guild would probably work to restrict access to the IT field. If it were a strictly voluntary organization, I might support it, but the history of that sort of thing is clear. The AMA restricts the supply of doctors, for example. In the long run, it's bad for the industry, because it politicizes the workplace and makes things unnecessarily rigid. In principle a guild could be a good thing,but I don't think it would be in practice.
  • How can you take a nation seriously that provides college scholarships for people whose only talent is throwing a ball whilst wearing enough padding to keep them safe in the event of a car crash?

    Yep, no one has ever gotten an academic scholarship in America. Ever. Nope. Never happened. Only football players.


  • Re:Call me a commie if you must (Score:5)

    by bobalu ( 1921 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:45AM (#799079)
    I guess I'm confused as to what the issue is with older "balding" workers having it so tough. Why would an employer want to fire his most experienced employees for a kid?

    Why indeed! Yet they do, all the time. It's real simple - they can pay you less, so there's more in the kitty for the manager to take home. After all, if you can't do the job in the time allotted because it was optimistic by a factor of 3 you'll probably work all night. I'll say mangement didn't listen to our estimates and go home. Except in rare cases, you'll find that nice manager home in bed while you're still debugging his greatest project victory.

    They can also pump you up with promises about the groovy new stuff you'll learn, projects you'll do etc., and not knowing any better you'll believe them. That hype becomes part of your pay. When you're around a bit longer, you realize how many of those promises are empty and stop working 60 hr weeks. They don't like older workers for the same reason the Army doesn't want 30 yr old recruits - the older guy will question their orders instead of blindly obey.
  • I disagree with your claim that this is a non-sequitur. He might not be very detailed in his reasoning for his solution, but this is not a non sequitur. Non Sequiturs occur when writers fail to show clear connections between their premise (starting point) and conclusion. This has nothing to do with his solution to a given problem.

    As I'm sure your aware Non sequitur literally means "it does not follow." It refers to a conclusion that does not grow logically from the evidence.

    If he were to say that students in the US are not interested in becoming scientists and thus the us education system is the reason we have so few scientists, the I would agree that it is a Non sequitur. However I do not believe that is his premise.

  • If it wasn't a real shortge, you wouldn't feel it (Score:4)

    by Ars-Fartsica ( 166957 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:48AM (#799093)
    And yes, you are feeling it - high wages for programmers, unfilled job posts, cancelled projects, etc.

    This malarky about keeping wages low is the most laughable argument I've ever heard - where I work, most H1-B holders make more than the US programmers, and all are paid $70k at a minimum - no one is living on Ramen in this biz folks.

    Its pretty simple - if there is no shortage, why are Monster.com and Dice.com filled with unfilled posts? Either the older tech employees aren't interested in taking these jobs, or they aren't qualified. Either way, we need to go outside the US to fill these positions.

    Oh, and before you piss all over Indians and other immigrants, remember that these folks are running half the silicon valley comapnies now - they aren't just at the bottom rung. Jobs for Americans (or whoever else is qualified) are being created by these people you are naively pissing all over.

  • Weeding out students who have to work (Score:3)

    by Pinball Wizard ( 161942 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @06:07AM (#799112) Homepage Journal
    I've often wondered about the common practice of "weeding out" students at universities. I'm not talking about private schools either, its the publicly funded universities as well. The tactic is to make the assignments so hard that only the most dedicated students(with ample time to study) make it. It made it at excruciatingly difficult for me at times because I had to work full time to support myself. Most(but not all) of the students who succeeded in engineering or CS at my school were traditional students, working 10 hours a week or less, and they had ample time to finish the assignments. My 300 level C++ class took about 20 hours of time each week. I envied my classmates who didn't have to work. A lot.

    After about 90 hours(at a 3.2 GPA, I didn't exactly flunk out) I took my first sysadmin job and eventually got into programming. I haven't gone back to finish my CS degree. From my experiences, I can see how our universities are contributing to the labor shortage. It is just too damn difficult for a working person to decide they want to become an engineer or programmer. And that's a shame because I think there are lots of people who only find this out later in life.

  • That wouldn't be good for USia (Score:3)

    by Dan Hayes ( 212400 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:24AM (#799114)

    USia suffers from a strange dichotomy in that on one hand it has a lot of scientific research done there and a lot of Nobel prize winners, yet on the other hand it seems to produce fewer scientists per head than many other nations. If you look at Nobel prizes for USian scientists, how many of them were born and educated there, and how many were lured there by a higher wage?

    The USian education system is geared more towards sports than education in many cases. How can you take a nation seriously that provides college scholarships for people whose only talent is throwing a ball whilst wearing enough padding to keep them safe in the event of a car crash? But it seems that colleges think that their importance is measured by the success of their football team rather than by the success of their graduates.

    I think that USia needs a lot more H1-Bs to make up for this lack of homegrown talent. And indeed, as more and more people find that they don't want to work in an industry which demands they devote their life to their job, foreign labor will be the only way to get workers.

  • Norman Matloff's web site (Score:3)

    by SandHawk ( 15347 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:25AM (#799120) Homepage
    Dr. Norman Matloff's web site, giving a great deal of information and opinion on the matter, is here, at http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.rea l.html [ucdavis.edu].

  • That's an interesting point... (Score:3)

    by TopShelf ( 92521 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @06:11AM (#799126) Homepage Journal
    The public perception is that programmers and CE's can write their own ticket, but if that were the case, you wouldn't see older pro's pushed out of the job market or the absurd hours that employers come to expect, not appreciate.

    The visa issue has gotten way out of control, and only serves to undercut our nation's ability to train and improve upon its existing workforce.

    The problem? Too many hiring managers and headhunters focus on keywords instead of skills such as the ABILITY to learn new languages and techniques. I was an HP3000 programmer who was lucky enough to find a job in an AS/400 shop because the manager realized that the job functions were similar, the business relationships (working with app users) were similar, and that learning a new OS and developing language skills was something I had already done in the past, so learning their system wouldn't be difficult.

    Technical skills can be learned. The ability to work effectively within an organization, and the ability to learn new skills as they are needed, are just as important, if not more so, than x years of VB/C++/Java experience.

  • Call me a commie if you must (Score:3)

    by Hairy_Potter ( 219096 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:30AM (#799131) Homepage
    But you have to consider the advantages that a unionized IT labor force would have. Perhaps union is to loaded a word, how about a professional giuld of IT workers.

    They could impose hiring restrictions on who the companies could hire, no more hiring cheap foreign nationals to avoid paying for someone's experience.

    They could make IT companies hire and/or keep older workers, no more getting turned out to field when you don't know the lastest language (even though you could learn it in a month).

    They could give worker's a decent working day, nothing wrong with the occasional clock wrapper, but 70 hour weeks are insane and exploitive.

    They could use a guild structure to offer an employment path that doesn't go through college, but instead focuses on on the job training, which many geeks prefer to dry textbook learning.

    Something to think about, someday you may not want to work a 70 hour week, you may have a family, you may grey hair or be balding, do you want to be replaced by an undercutting youngster or foreigner?

  • Experience versus age (Score:3)

    by lythander ( 21981 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:56AM (#799140)
    Workers with experience (regardless of age) are more valuable (and thus worth more money) at any position, including an entry level one. Any competent manager knows that. With experience (and just to piss off the kiddies, I'll be very explicit and say WORK experience) comes (for most) a wealth of knowledge and wisdom that doesn't translate to a resume.

    The average 40 year old with 15 years of experience is worth more than the average 21 year old if their technical knowledge is equal. Problem is that the 40 yo probably knows his rights and can't be molded into a 70 hour week serf.

    The fact is that in the US discrimination in hiring policies based on factors such as age, race, etc. is ILLEGAL, as are mandatory 70 hour work weeks. The point isn't well you can go get another job. Sure, we all can, there's always an unfortunate few who don't know better who'll fill the gap. The rest of us need to take a stand because they cannot.

    My grandfather died at 59 from lung cancer, after working in coal mines for years. His union didn't take 30 minute smoke breaks. They worked long and hard for what wasn't much of a wage, even at the time. Most of us here spend what he earned at starbucks. That union fought to get the workers protection and health coverage because their jobs were killing workers. Strikes give the unions a bad image, but they are a necessary evil given the overwhelming evil embodied in large corporations.

    Are we for corporations or against them? I know the union's stereotypes, and some are deserved, but if it's them or the corps., I'll take the unions.

  • Re:No freaking kidding (Score:3)

    by FascDot Killed My Pr ( 24021 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:58AM (#799142)
    I didn't say the person knew everything, clearly knowledge is an asset. I said someone who can "figure it out".

    Let me give you an example: We had some new computers set up that needed to get out our (Microsoft) proxy server and check POP3 mail on the Internet. I heard a lot of talk over the wall about how they couldn't get it working--about 3 hours worth. When I went into the server room, I saw the tech rebooting the server and calling the consultant who set things up.

    I went to one of the client machines: DNS server wrong, default gateway wrong, browser proxy settings wrong. Fixed those and we are good to go.

    I'm just a programmer with only the most basic knowledge of networking, yet I fixed this problem in less than 10 minutes because I'm competent.

    Having someone around who can answer all questions is an asset. Having people around who depend on that asset long-term is a liability. Especially so if the Answer Man is supposed to be, say, programming, but can't find time to do it between all the tech support calls.
    --

  • Too True (Score:3)

    by Greyfox ( 87712 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @05:31AM (#799155) Homepage Journal
    It's been my experience pretty consistently that the number of programmers with true hacker nature hoovers around 3% to 5%. The rest of them are in it for the money.

    It has moreover been my experience that most hiring managers wouldn't know one of these people if they bit them on the ass. Not that that would particularly endear you to your interviewer mind you. And since they never invented a test for hacker nature, this situation will probably not improve.

    So if you have hacker nature (And you know who you are,) the chances of you working on a team with anyone else who has hacker nature are pretty slim. The chances of you taking over from anyone who actually knew anything about programming are even slimmer. The chances that you're taking over from someone who was bluffing and bailed out before the shit hit the fan are pretty good.

  • No shortage of IT workers.. (Score:4)

    by vr ( 9777 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:34AM (#799160)
    .. but a shortage of competent IT workers.

  • Oh yeah there's a shortage -Bwah Ha (Score:3)

    by gelfling ( 6534 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:36AM (#799164) Homepage Journal
    of 24 yr olds with 15 yrs experience in a technology 3 yrs old & willing to move 3,000 miles away to work 90hrs/week to earn 67K @ a company with a 50-50 chance of being in business in 6 months! The truth is, is that as soon as they understand you're over 30 they start to cough and mumble about "well this probably isn't a real good fit for you..."

    It's not about skills or availability. It's about power and control. It's about exporting your development risk and the hell with the people. It's about bringing a bunch of guys over from India, cramming them 10 to a house, paying them shit and kicking them out when the visa expires because at any payrate they're getting paid better here than there. So what if your code is shit. By then the "contractor" has moved on to another customer who's thrilled to get work done at apparently half the rate of anyone else's bid.

  • I feel your pain, but learn the language (Score:3)

    by brokeninside ( 34168 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @05:33AM (#799184)

    Quoth Alioth:

    Here I am, being called an "alien". I don't in fact come from somewhere in the vicinity of Alioth, I come from planet Earth. Strip off the skin - whether it's white, yellow, black or brown - and we are all exactly the same underneath.

    To quote the Giant, 'you keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.'

    alien adj. 1. foreign; strange 2. of aliens n. 1. a foreigner 2. a foreign-born resident who is not naturalized 3. a hypothetical being from outer space

    It appears we have yet another victim of the Hollywoodization of US culture.

    BTW, I agree with all of your other points. Diversity is strength and the US has been built on the strength of immigrants ever since the first Europeans gave smallpox to the natives.

    Oops, that's another discussion all together...

  • Re:Call me a commie if you must (Score:5)

    by binarybits ( 11068 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:42AM (#799216) Homepage
    The last thing the IT industry needs is a union.

    Unions are simply cartels. They drive up wages and benefits by restricting supply. This is great if you are one of the ones who get the jobs. It sucks, though, if you are one of those "cheap foreign" workers who is excluded.

    It always amazes me that people act as though the interests of the foreign workers is irrelevant. It's all about me, me, me. We have it pretty damn good here. So what if foreign workers will drive down our wages a bit? It's drive up their wages a *lot.* That's why they're willing to come over here. More to the point, it'll benefit the rest of society because prices for IT services will be cheaper.

    Something to think about, someday you may not want to work a 70 hour week, you may have a family, you may grey hair or be balding, do you want to be replaced by an undercutting youngster or foreigner?

    If you do useful work, your employer (unless he's stupid) will continue to keep you on. If you act as though what you learned in college is all you need to know, then you deserve to be fired. If you know your stuff, why would your employer want to fire you? You've got 10 years of experience, you're a proven worker, and they don't have to train you in like they would a new person.

    If the reason is that you are paid to much, well, maybe you're over-paid. It works both ways-- the fact that you're older than me doesn't mean that you should automatically get the best jobs at the best wages. If I can do the same job as you, and I'm willing to do it for less money, why shouldn't I get the job? And why shouldn't you accept the wage I'm willing to take to keep yours?

    I guess I'm confused as to what the issue is with older "balding" workers having it so tough. Why would an employer want to fire his most experienced employees for a kid? Salary? Skills? Those things are both in your control. If you're not willing to put in the time to keep your skills current, then perhaps you don't deserve a big raise every year. But to demand an advantage in the workplace simply on the basis of age is unfair to us and the industry as a whole.

  • 1996 data? (Score:5)

    by helarno ( 34086 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:42AM (#799220) Homepage
    One problem I have with this article is the fact that it is using 1996 data. People from that period know that even back in 1996, the economy wasn't that great and finding jobs was hard. Also, the idea back then was that the quick path to riches was through the old MBA route. The only people in CS back then were the people who really, really loved the field.

    Things are so very different today. The MBA is out, tech is in. Enrollments are up I'm sure, because my own college is operating beyond normal capacity (lots of part-time instructors). All the money seekers are in CS, so 2000 data is very different form 1996. Starting salaries for many college graduates I know are 60k+. This is in contrast to 1997 (when I last graduated) where the lucky ones were the ones who got ~40k salaries.

    From my own experience, finding good people here (Boston, USA) is tough, especially if you're a small company. I've worked with companies that had 50% vacancies because they couldn't find people. They aren't even trying to hire college graduates now ... they will grab anyone who can produce code. They have products they want to get to market but can't, because they don't have to people. Maybe Intel and Microsoft don't have as much of a problem but I can guarantee you that small companies here are hurting because of the shortage.

    Sadest part is that they are looking for people with the 'older' skills. C, C++, HTML and basic HTTP understanding would often go far in some of these places. They are willing to train. There just aren't enough good people to go around.

  • It the same mess over the pond. (Score:3)

    by shippo ( 166521 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @07:06AM (#799221)
    In the UK theres a simillar problem - a supposed skills shortage.

    I personally have had major employment difficulties over the past 2 years. I used to offer high end networking/troubleshooting for a Banyan reseller, and I was one of the best (if not the best) doing the job outside of Banyan in the UK. I had major UK companies renew significant support contracts with us just on my skills alone. Banyan's software was Unix based, so needed a lot of Unix skills.

    The Banyan market collapsed (like Banyan themselves) and the company I was working for changed their tack. I left the place (for a well needed rest) and decided to look elsewhere.

    In the following 2 years I've spent 9 months or more not working. No-one wants to know me, despite the fact I have the ability to learn. Is it just that I'm too old (over 30) or that my skills are not valid anymore?

    One factor is that many of those doing the recruitment and interviewing shouldn't be doing so. I attended one interview with an operations section of a major company. I was interviewed by an utter moron. His only technical question was on how to count words in a file under Unix (pah!). The other questions were 'Have you heard of , where was a little used propriatory tool. The rejection letter stated I no Unix skills, despite the fact I had been working with the system for 10 years.

    The recruitment agencies, who handle the majority of posts, are even worse. Most don't know their arse from their elbows.

  • H1B visa workers are SLAVES. (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07, 2000 @05:41AM (#799231)
    Anyone desiring an H1B visa must FIRST find an employer to sponsor them before they can apply for one. Once here they are a slave. Why? Because quitting causes their visa to become void within 30 days. Maybe thay can request an extension while scrambling to find a new job, but that's extremely risky. And if forced to leave, it is unlikely they'll get a new H1B because of "policy" dictating that "someone new gets a fair chance to get an H1B visa". So quitting becomes to great a risk. And the EMPLOYER knows this too. The result? H1B workers get treated like crap and have to take it. They'll work longer hours for less pay. Naturally, employers like this. Good for "the bottom line" unlike older American workers who have "become too expensive" as they age and gain experience. Since when is supporting a family and buying a home an unacceptable cost to a company?

    Hey Washington. Slavery ended 150 years ago. Let's not start it up again. End this program.

  • A labor shortage is... (Score:4)

    by ronfar ( 52216 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:47AM (#799252) Journal
    A labor shortage is... an inability to find workers who will work unlimited unpaid overtime for extremely low wages.

    H-1B visas are... a way to create a class of workers who don't have the same constitutional rights (or what's left of them) as the average American citizen and will be beholden to the companies that hire them not only for their job but for their continued residence in the US.

    Technology workers are... a group of working class people who are foolishly squandering their powerful position in the labor market by not unionizing.

  • In defense of immigrants (Score:5)

    by American AC in Paris ( 230456 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:47AM (#799254) Homepage
    As somebody who has just gone through the immigration process in "the other direction"--I've just moved from the U.S. to begin working for our branch office in France--I have a bit of a bone to pick with the entire concept the "problem" of high immigration.

    I work in an office that really needs my skills. However, because of a monumental array of "protective" immigration measures, it took me several months to secure the required papers, medical exams, and official approvals to even be able to work here; since she didn't already have a job with a French company, my wife isn't even allowed to do _any_ work by law (figure that Catch-22 out...) We are both well-educated and extremely capable individuals in our respective fields (I'm a computer scientist, she's a biochemist.) Yet, in the name of preserving jobs for French citizens, we're forced to either not work at all or constantly jump through administrative hoops until blue in the face. (My papers need to be renewed in one year, a process I do not look forward to.) Being an immigrant is a hard, often unrewarding process, and it takes some real guts to even think about it in the first place, much less do it.

    I understand perfectly the logic behind such strict requirements for employment as a foreigner, and realize that we (Americans) use the exact same way of thinking. If a spot can be filled by a full citizen of a nation, then that citizen should have precedence to said job, right? The problem lies in the fact that the citizen isn't always the most qualified for the position; indeed, truly skilled and driven workers rarely complain about immigrants in the workplace (if anything, they thrive on the diversity it introduces.) It's the mediocre, the uninspired, the clock-puncher who worries about losing his or her job to somebody who actually wants to _work_. On that note, if there's anything they can tag to that potential replacement to discourage their hire, they'll do it. Immigrant. Woman. Kid. Dinosaur. Hispanic. This is FUD at it's purest, most base form. When faced with somebody who the weak worker _knows_ will be a better employee than themselves, the immediate reaction of that person is to find some way of discrediting or disqualifying that person. This results in bad hiring practices, discrimination, reduced productivity, and a less dynamic and exciting workplace overall.

    Intelligent, capable individuals don't complain about immigrants and immigration. They understand that with immigrants come new ways of thinking, new talents and abilities, new cultural experiences, and the unique opportunity to learn a great deal about a place that they will very likely never visit in person. Weak, selfish people see immigrants as a threat to their cushy, do-nothing jobs, and as such, want nothing to do with them. It's as simple as that.

    I'm only experiencing the smallest sliver of the discrimination that most immigrants go through, but it's already increased my respect for other immigrants tenfold. People who are strong enough to leave their native country, whether voluntarily or even more so as refugees, deserve a far higher degree of respect than they receive.

    An American AC In Paris

  • Employers: Put up or shut up (Score:3)

    by 0xdeadbeef ( 28836 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:48AM (#799258) Homepage Journal
    You'd think if we really valued skilled immigrants, we wouldn't use the H1-B visa to subject them to the whims of their employer. Rather than all this smoke and mirrors about a labor shortage, lets remove the requirements that say an immigrant has to stay with their sponser or be deported. After all, the worker is still in the market and filling those badly need jobs, and a skilled worker should have no problem paying the fees of the immigration bureaucracy.

    Out gosh, then they'd have to pay them the market wage, which of course will naturally rise in a supply shortage. Corporations want it both ways: the free market to reduce costs (and get away with shit they wouldn't otherwise), but they want a tightly regulated market (in their favor) of immigrant workers.

  • Re:code word (Score:3)

    by helarno ( 34086 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @03:49AM (#799263) Homepage
    it has the phrase "Must be eligible to work in the US" that is pretty much a code phrase for "We're looking for someone born outside the US who will work for whatever scraps fall off the table.

    Are you kidding? That code phrase, if you talk to job hunters and recruiters, usually means green card holders or US citizens. That is the very opposite of H1Bs and other temporary workers. That phrase was rarely used until mid-99, when it started becoming more common. Today, up to half the jobs advertised have this. The growing demand for US permanent residents or citizens has boomed largely because INS has fallen so behind in issuing H1Bs that companies can no longer afford to hire and wait 6 months for H1B employees.

  • Re:That wouldn't be good for USia (Score:3)

    by JordanH ( 75307 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @07:24AM (#799323) Homepage Journal
    • What about kids who play sports? What are you going to do for them? "Oops, sorry. After High School, you have no hopes of continuing on your education...just join the footbal league".

    I dunno, maybe the kids who play sports can get through school just like the overwhelming majority of other students do. What about the kids who play chess?? How are they ever going to get to school without those Chess Scholarships?! (Oh, no Chess Scholarships? hmmm...)

    It's corrupting for the focus of an academic institution to be Athletics. It gives you people like Bobby Knight and "students" like you have at many big Football schools who can hardly read.

    You throw out a lot of smoke about how it keeps donors happy, blah, blah, blah. Show me one once of justification that it's a net positive to the school. And, don't give me the cooked books from the Sports Communication Deptartments who count that fancy fieldhouse as a benefit to the school.

    I wonder how the donors at Harvard are kept happy with their modest sports programs?


    -Jordan Henderson

  • A commonly proposed solution (Score:5)

    by helarno ( 34086 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:02AM (#799327) Homepage
    Instead of giving foreign workers H1Bs, which bind them to a company, why not give them green cards? That way, they don't have to worry about working for slave wages and companies will have to pay prevailing wage. Competition for jobs will be based on capability then, not nationality.

    There's actually a petition going around supporting this, signed by luminaries including non other than Linus Torvalds himself. You can find the link at:www.immigrationreform.com [immigrationreform.com].

    Then again, why would the US want to import the smartest and brightest of the world's talent?

  • Memories (Score:4)

    by Shotgun ( 30919 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:08AM (#799350)
    This reminds me of 'long ago', about '92 I think it was. I was getting ready to finish my first degree, an Associates in Electronic Engineering Technologies. All the professional industry magazines that I was reading kept proclaiming what a shortage of technical workers there was. I was so excited to be earning a degree in field with such a demand.

    I graduated with about 20 other guys. I got lucky and landed a job in a union shop where I got about $10/hr. The best the others could find were some jobs paying $7/hr. As a point of reference, the job I had to get through school was as a security guard. I sat at a desk and had people sign a paper when they came in. I made $6/hr.

    It's been said often, but never loudly enough. The shortage isn't of qualified workers. The shortage is of qualified workers who will give their services away for free.

    Why isn't there a shortage of qualified CEOs for technical oriented companies? If colleges aren't putting out enough people who know how to program, how are they putting out enough who know how to manage programmers? Someone should argue before Congress that the increase in H1-B for technical workers should be tied to an increase in H1-B for management positions.

    A popular mechanic was so busy that he couldn't handle all his paperwork, so he hired a secretary. She wasn't qualified to keep the books, so he had to hire an accountant. Before long, he needed an office manager. It wasn't long before the accountant noticed that the company was running in the red, so the office personel had a meeting to discuss ways to cut the budget. The first suggestion came from the office manager. "I know," he said, "let's get rid of that guy out back."

    A professional guild would go a long way toward establishing guidelines for what should be expected of a professional engineer and what are acceptable working conditions. I shy away from 'union', because the term has become to be synonomous with 'racket', and very few engineers want to deal with having a second boss (I've worked in a union shop, and that is exactly what a union boils down to). The guild would set guidelines for behaviour versus negotiating contracts. You could still work 70hr weeks, but it would be understood that you were working more than what is reasonable (which it is!!).

  • There are many different kinds of "I/T Workers" (Score:5)

    by tytso ( 63275 ) on Thursday September 07, 2000 @04:09AM (#799352) Homepage

    One of the things which this guy's analysis leaves out is there are many different types of "I/T Workers", and what might be true for one class of techies might not be true for others. There's a big difference between someone who is a systems programmer, an SAP R/3 or Oracle Financials Business Programmer, an Oracle DBA, or a Web HTML/Code Fusion/PHP jockey.

    So when we talk about there being plenty of "older programmers" in the U.S., do they have the right skill set? Are they willing to learn the latest stuff? It doesn't help if we have a lot of mainframe programmers, for example. I remember one fellow in particular who thought that $30,000 for a web server that ran on an IBM mainframe was cheap, and wasn't it cool that he could put his project web page on the mainframe? I didn't have the heart to tell him that that much money would have purchased several cheap Unix/Linux boxes for which Apache would be free.

    I also think that the issue of "ageism" is a red herring. (The "I can run a web server on a mainframe guy" wasn't over 30.) There are plenty of younger programmers who don't know what the heck they are doing; there are also plenty of really smart people who happy to be fairly light in their years (take Linus Torvalds, for example; he's well under 30). Similarly, there are plenty of older folks who stuck in the mud, not willing to learn anything new beyond the Cobol of their youth, and there are also those folks who might be chronologically young, but who are always willing to learn the latest stuff, and who have the benefit of learning certain lessons the hard way, and whose hard-earned experience is extremely valuable. It works both ways.

    Speaking as someone who has been on both sides of the management/technical fence, it's not so easy to find competent engineers. Sure you can pay more money, but that isn't necessarily going to do it. In the Silicon Valley, companies are paying huge amounts of money for engineers, and from what I can tell, they still have large numbers of positions going unfilled.

    As for me as a purely technical engineer, I'm not particularly worried about having foreigners compete with me for jobs. There will always be a need for really good, competent engineers. The real risk comes to those who just know how to do HTML, or just know how to futz with Microsoft Front Page, and who calls him or herself "an I/T worker". When the oversupply of I/T workers hits (and it will --- give it 5 or 10 years), those folks will be out of a job, because if you're still only doing HTML jockeying when you're 45, you have rocks for brains if you think that your seniority means that you deserve more money than the someone fresh out of college who can do the same thing. Companies pay people for what their jobs are worth, not just because they've warmed the same seat in a company for 15 years. (Or at least, they should. The reason why many engineers I know dislike unions is because they haven't figured out that this seniority pay thing is abhorrent to most engineers. That concept might work for the Teamsters, but not for engineers.)

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