PythonLabs moves to Digital Creations

snottrue writes "This just in from comp.lang.python - the PythonLabs team is moving to Digital Creations (the Zope people)." Van Rossum's message is informative.

Pythons BDFL doesnt fall for weak jedi mind tricks

[jherber]

"""No -- DC is not interested in branding or monetizing Python, so there will be no pressure for marketing gimmicks like that. Python will remain Python, soon to be owned py the Python Software Foundation (more about that idea another time).""" - Guido van Rosssum

http://x71.deja.com/threadmsg_ct.xp?AN=686840642 .1&mhitnum=10&CONTEXT=972744081.2060845082

this is a very good move in my opinion. the designers and implementors of the langauge will be couped up with one of their biggest customers and users. only good things can come from all the cross pollination. the zope gurus will no doubt influence python's future in the area of backend server capability.

digicool's zope team also teamed up with mozilla (http://www.zope.org/Products/ZopeStudio) to develop a new managment front end that runs using mozilla's new widgets. this experience may come in handy as the python team decides the fate of the default GUI that ships with the core python release, given that the future of tcl is shady (http://www.ajubasolutions.com/company/whatsnew.ht ml) from a support standpoint, as well as that many are unhappy with inelegant solution of going through another tcl to get to tk.

Kudos to GvR for putting the protection of the python and the python community first.

jherber

Open Source

[pchown]

PHP recently ceased being open source (if in a rather technical way). The PHP licence says:

The software incorporates the Zend Engine, a product of Zend Technologies, Ltd. ("Zend"). The Zend Engine is licensed to the PHP Association pursuant to a grant from Zend that can be found at http://www.php.net/license/ZendGrant/) for distribution to you under this license agreement, only as a part of PHP. In the event that you separate the Zend Engine (or any portion thereof) from the rest of the software, or modify the Zend Engine, or any portion thereof, your use of the separated or modified Zend Engine software shall not be governed by this license, and instead shall be governed by the license set forth at http://www.zend.com/license/ZendLicense/.

The Open Source Definition [opensource.org] says:

The licence must allow modifications and derived works, and must allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license of the original software.

I hope this doesn't mean that Python is going to go the same way.

Python needs a CPAN

[costas]

When I first heard of Python, I thought it was a joke; I mean, whitespace-sensitive? what is this Fortran? However, it just so happened that my company was looking for a RAD language we could use on Unix and NT. So, I started using Python as a punchline as in "Be careful, or I am gonna write this in Python". After using that joke too many times, I actually started looking into the language. Python kicks ass. It's a RAD Java, a clean Perl, a consistent PHP. So, I am now this Python evangelist.

However, Python is severely lacking in the modules dept: Don't get me wrong the distro libraries are great, but occasionally you need a quick hack that you *know* someone else has already written. We need a CPAN for Python. Starship and the Vaults of Parnassus are OK, but they're nothing more than an index, without organization or consistency.

I hope Digital Creations actually tries something like that...

Aargh!

[awx]

I just had a heart attack when I read it:

PythonLabs is moving to Digital Convergence

d'oh.
awx

Re:Python needs a CPAN

[Anonymous Coward]

There's been a lot of discussion of that on comp.lang.python, especially since Starship has been down. I think the general feeling was that this was something for the Distutils SIG to tackle, but you might want to read archives on Deja.

Re:BeOpen was not the license problem

[Zagadka]

How does moving to Digital Creations fix this problem?

Digital Creations Rules!

[Arkham]

Digital Creations is a great company. I think this is a very good thing for Python and for Zope (which is a truly kick-ass product, even if the learning curve is a bit steep).

I've been a Python evangelist for 4 years, and a Zope evangelist ever since I started using it in May. Two great products that will only get better with this announcement.

Re:Python needs a CPAN

[Taran Wanderer]

I agree that CPAN is a great resource. but people tend to overlook that python includes a lot of functionality (more than any other language i've seen) in its base modules.

The Distutils have already made installing a python module as easy as falling of a log.

python setup.py build
python setup.py install

most of the official SIGS and several signifigant third party addons already use it.

once the Distutils are in wide use, creating a CPAN will be only slightly harder than falling off a log.

Digital Creations helped solve the license problem

[Bruce Perens]

BeOpen were not the only people working on resolving the licensing problem. In all I think I put in a few days on the Python licensing issue, speaking with the CNRI person via email, phone, and an in-person meeting. I did it at the request of Digital Creations. DC's investor had changed the Zope license OSD at my request, so he was calling in the favor by asking me to work on another license that concerned them.

Thanks

Bruce

Re:Open Source

[Bruce Perens]

Actually, it's not at all clear that even the first license requires you to execute it. And it's not clear that the first license in this case is requiring you to execute the second. You don't have to sign it or indicate your compliance in any way. That's what I was getting at when I wrote that rule into the OSD - you shouldn't have to mail in a signed document to use a piece of Open Source software.

However, I do see the language about the grant in the PHP license, and the second license for Zend, to be pretty messy. They didn't have to word it that way to get the job done, they could simply have built two compatible licenses for the two different pieces.

In your place, I'd have them clean up the license language.

Bruce

Re:Open Source

[Russ Nelson]

Not only that, but PHP requires execution of a separate license. We may change the OSD to allow one open source license to require you to execute another open source license. It's silly not to (but we haven't yet made that decision).
-russ

Zope development team

[ncon]

I think this is Good News. Digital Creations [slashdot.org] obviously has a good development strategy. They can make their community happy by aquiring the geniuses at python, so that the community does more to enhance Zope (like creating more Products and Documentation) and performing services for Zope (like R&D testing). It sure sounds okay from the stance of a businessman, companies don't want to build dynamic object publishing systems themselves, so DC has a win there- their consulting services will certainly flourish.

Zope is destined to progress by leaps and bounds with the entire Python team on the DC dole, and not just from resulting from the work done by the python crew either- with this news, the morale of the Zope community has got to be going through the roof.

The Open Source community has got to be psyched also, (I know I am) Digital Creations has just too much at stake to do any funny licensing or anything like that, Guido has made it obvious that he wants it Open Source. DC has been good for the community in the past, I am confident that they will have no choice but to keep it up.

uh-oh, here comes the .sig

Re:Python needs a CPAN

[HardLogic]

Um, Python can use Perl modules, some recent bit of code. I don't have a link, but I'm sure a quick search of the python sites will turn it up ...

Finally some good news!

[Enigma2175]

It is a very good thing that Python development is moving to another company. BeOpen wanted to take total control of the language and release it under a different license. Hopefully Digital Creations will be more open-minded on this matter (the article indicates they will be). Python is a valuable resource to the community and I would hate to see it drop by the wayside because of money-minded corporations.


Enigma

Re:Python 3.0 release imminent?

[g_mcbay]

nah, its going to be Python 7.0, so it can compete with Visual C++ 7.0, VB 7.0 and be ahead of Perl 6 !!!!

The magic is in the version numbers!!

Damn.

[pb]

Thanks for telling me, Michael! I was going to mark it as 'Insightful' by mistake...
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].

Re:Python 3.0 release imminent?

[Sheeple Police]

Dear Lord, does that mean we'll soon have Python.NET? Or will it be 'ahead a version number' and be like.. Python.WEB or Python.Fire. I wonder if the samples will now say "Hello, Dave, would you like to play some chess" instead of "Hello World" (rumor has it that Ada samples said "Good Morning Vietnam", but that's still up in debate)

moving around

[Sakke]

well, it's not nice to move around all the time, isnt'it. but hopefully these guys get lucky with the new place, and get those license - things the way the wanted.

seems like python is finally getting the publicity it deservers.

Mirror

[webmaven]

The announcement can also be found here:
http://www.python.org/digicool.html [python.org] ; ;
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Re:Python 3.0 release imminent?

[mwa]

Last I heard there were some trademark issues with the person who actually owns the python.net domain.

I've been waiting for something like this since MS announced .NET. W2K subverts the enterprise to MS at the core, .NET subsumes trademark control over a major TLD.

20 more years, and birth certificates will be replaced by MS EULA's....

Re:Python 3.0 release imminent?

[Fizgig]

ActiveState is already developing a Python.NET. They claim to have it mostly working, and I think they've given out the source already (I haven't used it or looked at it; I don't run Windows). It'll be to the Microsoft.NET CLR as JPython (now Jython) is to the JVM. Last I heard there were some trademark issues with the person who actually owns the python.net domain...

Good

[Fizgig]

I was never quite sure what BeOpen actually planned on doing with Python. At least Digital Creations' entire livlihood depends on Python continuing to exist, and they're already a successful open source company. I thought those of us who love Python had it bad with all the moving around and the uncertainty behind licensing and the language's future (I imagine Guido et al have been having a rougher time at it than I have!), but I just saw on the front page of Linux Weekly News [lwn.net] the current TCL plight. So I guess we could have it worse.

A win all round Zope/Webware/Python

[geeklawyer]

This is great news. Zope is an excellent product and Python has to be the best scripting language for Web Servers. I hope this encourages Zope to get down to issues it has largely ignored like documentation (which cause me to ditch it for the nascent but excellent Webware).

Re:Open Source

[tpv]

I hope this doesn't mean that Python is going to go the same way.

I'm not sure why it would mean that.
Zope and Zend are not related. (Apart from being in similar product spaces)

Zend is the company behind the latest PHP offerings.
Zope is a product from Digital Creations, that provides similar features to PHP (similar in the sense that it's about dynamic web-page generation).

Zope is OpenSource, with quite a reasonable license [zope.org].

I certainly hope the Python doesn't go down the path of semi-open-source the way some products have, but I have faith that Guido wouldn't agree to that, and the new non-profit that will be taking on the Python copyright will probably have some safe guards in place to stop it.

--

Re:BeOpen was not the license problem

[guerby]

I must admit that this casts a new light on the FSF insistance on getting the copyright assigned before accepting projects under their umbrella. I see that getting this kind of copyright bomb in a major piece of free software or open source can become ugly real fast.

BeOpen was not the license problem

[Adam J. Richter]

The obstruction was not at BeOpen, it was at CNRI.

A particular person who remained at CNRI after the Python guys went to BeOpen claimed that all the work done during the CNRI days was not implicitly under the original CWI terms, but rather was copyright CNRI and CNRI had yet to give anyone permission to do anything. That party wrote new copying conditions and, after a great deal of work by BeOpen, backed down to something that is probably GPL compatible, but muddied. (The new CNRI copying conditions include the additional restriction beyond the GPL's that "This License Agreement shall be governed by and interpreted in all respects by thelaw of the State of Virginia, excluding conflict of law provisions." I think the issue is basically over which part of the total list of copying permissions is referred to by "This License Agreement", but I'm not a lawyer.)

Whether or not it was their plan, BeOpen made a huge sacrafice in human resources to focus on defusing the Python license bomb. We could very easily have reverted to situation where all the work done during the CNRI years was under a cloud of legal threats. BeOpen deserves our deep gratitude for this.

Also, CNRI could have been worse about this, so I would appreciate our not trashing them either.

Re:Python needs a CPAN

[costas]

Agreed; Python doesn't need as much standardization for modules as Perl :-)... And the distutils package is indeed a great idea, ...BUT: you still have to find that module/distro in order to install it.

I am thinking more of a site (even a Zope-powered one :-) where you can search not only the description of the code, or browse through an index but actually search through the doc-strings as well --the self-documenting functionality is there, why not use it?

And a final peeve: I am indeed a Python evangelist now, but when my colleagues ask me if there is stuff out there for Python and where to get them, I really don't want to send them to Starship or Parnassus: neither one looks well-organized or proffessionally made. I know that has very little to do with their usefulness (well, the organized part does :-) or the quality of their contents, but unfortunately that's how people judge...