H1 B's Get To Change Jobs More Freely 63
merigold77 writes "Business2.com reports in H1-Bs on the Move
that the bill allowing 80,000 new H1-B workers includes "significant new freedoms for the workers themselves. In the interests of reducing the role of the INS in these workers' careers, the bill includes a 'portability provision' that makes it easier for H-1B workers to switch companies without having to wait for INS approval.""
This doesn't help (Score:2)
What's really needed is to streamline the green card process. Put a stop to the indentured servitude, give the workers green cards, and let them actually participate in this "free market" that I keep hearing about...
Not too careful... (Score:1)
Unless there's something shady about the new job, I haven't heard that there are any problems getting the new H1B. As a person, the INS has already found that you qualify.
If you wait 3-6 months to accept the new job, it will not be there in many cases.
And there are never any guarantees for employment in the US anyway. Anyone can get fired tomorrow.
other changes--but how will they ever catch up? (Score:2)
But the bill fixes some other problems that perhaps were much more serious. For example, H1B holders used to lose their job and had to leave the country if the INS didn't manage to process their greencard applications in a timely manner (even just getting an already approved green card issued now can take nearly 3 years). It also allows many greencard applicants to change jobs while the INS is sitting on those applications.
The problem with it all is that the new bill creates even more paperwork for the INS to handle: new H1B visas, new forms, new applications. If they couldn't handle the old volume of paperwork, how are they going to deal with this?
We've been through this already, haven't we? (Score:3)
Linus Torvalds is stuck behind red tape. Many a talented worker is stuck behind red tape. This may or may not be a bonus, because the motivation of MANY on H-1s is to become Green Card holders, whereas many believe temporary means temporary.
If we're going to have a discussion about this, please put your own personal agendas as to whether these furners should be here or not aside and discuss what this actually means to some of the readership here.
Re:About time! (Score:1)
This will force H1B loving companies into competing fairly for their employees (including H1B's).
Re:I guess Larry Ellison won! (Score:1)
> a work permit in most countries.
An eye for an eye!
--- Speaking only for myself,
Yes Immigrant Jail"!! (Score:2)
Just like a company requiring reimbursement of the moving expenses that they paid out, if you leave before one or two years.
Green card applicants? (Score:2)
Re:We've been through this already, haven't we? (Score:1)
Especially when combined with a sensible abolishment of the minimum wage.
The state can simply not afford to maintain the lifestyles of the non-contributing members of society any longer.
I don't know why Browne has featured so insignificantly in the media. Ooops, politics is off topic now isnt it. :)
I am an H1B worker and... (Score:2)
Our workload outpaces our resources, and if my company could find more programmers like me locally they would hire them and these would join me at the top of the payroll heap. There are plenty of bright kids and what some like to call advanced hobbyists out there, but when you need 5-10 years experience, you pay for it when you can get it, even if it means importing.
I can tell you, moving from Canada to the U.S. has not been all it was cracked up to be. With stars in my eyes, I sold my home and moved my family to a U.S. city to work for better pay. Despite receiving better pay, the reward hasn't been necessarily financial. Among other things, I quickly found that to live in a good neighborhood with good schools, I would have to spend more real estate dollars than where I came from. I have had to re-establish credit. My wife can't work if she wanted to. I have been on a temporary visa for 4 years wondering if the holy grail (green card) will ever arrive. What a feeling - everything is temporary?! The list goes on and on, not to mention the xenophobic fear mongering in tv ads and on the internet
The positives about moving to the U.S. have been quite unexpected: we've met some of the best friends anyone could have, and have put down some pretty good roots here. I hope we do one day get our permanent residency here, and can feel like we truly belong. I hope I don't have to sell all my belongings, and pack up my family with my tail between my legs and go back to Canada. I've gambled a lot, and for the first time in my life know the fear and apprehension an immigrant feels.
The ironic part is that with the explosion of the internet, it matters much less where I live than when I first hired in 4 years ago. Today, I could take a somewhat reduced role with my employer and live anywhere that I could find good bandwith, including another country.
Good move - now fix green cards (Score:2)
The next thing they need to fix is the green card process. Having the employer sponsor the application is bad news. There's no incentive for the employer to fast-track the application, because they lose the person faster. There's no incentive for the employer's lawyer to fast-track the application, because they'll get paid more for delay.
The green card process should be solely between the INS and the H1-B holder. If a person can prove that someone will hire them on a H1-B, why do they need to prove again that they'll be employable with a green card?
I like the provision to limit INS stuff to six months, but you have to get it to the INS first. That's where the employer and their lawyer can slow things down. I went for 1.5 years before the damn lawyer submitted the green card paperwork, because of nit-picking on things he already had but lost.
One thing's for sure - they won't fool me a second time. The whole process will need to be fixed first, including the green card, before I set foot in the US again.
Do all parts move at the same speed? (Score:1)
Theoretically - October 17, when Bill Clinton signed it. In practice - when the INS publishes the regulations for implementing the law. My estimate - mid 2002.
Is that true of all parts? It seems to me that the "portability provision" could be done with no involvement from the INS. You simply start working at the new company, and no one has any legal way of stopping you.
Or am I being naive?
Re:About time! (Score:1)
holders. Most (or at least a very large fraction of) H1B holders also apply for a greencard. If you switch jobs during the 4-5
years of the greencard process, your entire application is nullified.
No longer true - once the Labor Certification is complete, the rest of the green card process is transferable.
Re:A Beautiful Land And Some Bigots (Score:1)
You are so right. We are a global economy I can't wait for the day when we're all united as citizens of earth. When we all work for the betterment for ourselves and for the betterment of humanity. Watching star Trek has taught me a lot of great stuff and one of the best things it has taught me is that we can achieve so much if we all work together.:)
If they need training then they are not good.. (Score:1)
The truth is that most Americans have little ambitions of hard work.. they would rather be managers. People coming from countries with less IT opportunities trained themselves out of passion with more computers and less money/power in mind.
Re:There are other ways (Score:1)
File a complaint....? (Score:2)
Re:Yes Immigrant Jail"!! (Score:2)
Now, if the company pays your moving expenses, which can be quite significant if you're coming from overseas, you can be required to repay your moving expenses. But you certainly won't go to "Immigrant Jail".
Re:I'm very glad to hear this. (Score:1)
Re:Do all parts move at the same speed? (Score:1)
Boy, you're so naive!
Re:No More "Immigrant Jail"!! (Score:1)
Perhaps your basic assumption is wrong: the politicians and companies that I know did not and do not consider H1Bs slave labor.
In fact, until 1998, INS processing was quick enough that people usually could change jobs within a year, even if they just started their greencard application. The current problems are entirely due to INS processing delays, and Congress seems to have that addressed quickly and efficiently.
As for your company, I'd change jobs in your position. If your company engages in such practices, it doesn't seem like it values its workers. This is not common practice in the industry.
Thank the Republicans AGAIN! (Score:1)
How many programmers remember the Regan era when we all were getting laid off. If Bush ends up winning (again) we are all in toruble. The H1B's WILL put us ALL out of work! Companies will have basically a free ride to get what ever they want. I hope many voted for third parties at least.
This country(US) is being sold to the highest bidder and American workers are not part of the equation!
Write, call your congressman and voice your opinion on this stuff. Tell them you DO NOT want any more of this type of stuff. Remind them that H1B's cannot vote and you can!
Folk's I have been saying and saying it, we need to clean house in American politics. Vote for third parties and send a message to the Dems and the Reps that you are sick and tired of the same old crap!
A Beautiful Land And Some Bigots (Score:1)
Re:There are other ways (Score:1)
Re:If they need training then they are not good.. (Score:1)
I generally agree with this, but it tars Americans with far too broad a brush.
It's true that that most talented and productive people - wherever they come from - mostly train themselves. If someone has to take a training course in basic HTML, for example, they're unlikely to become a really good web designer. The principle I would put forth here is that we're each actively responsible for our own skills - for acquiring them, for keeping them competetive, and for recognizing reality if it turns out your not doing what you were born to do. If you listen to the politicians and pundits, you'd think that everyone should be a tech worker - piffle!
I also think most American firms in my experience don't do enough training, or enough of the right kind of training. A lot of us just have too little time to pick something up in a catch-as-catch-can manner. A structured training course can save time, but no one should expect training to convert halfwits into wizards.
Re:There are other ways (Score:2)
Bullshit. It's not an "urban legend", it is a documented fact [ucdavis.edu].
h1-b article (Score:1)
Re:h1-b article & DO YOUR RESEARCH (Score:1)
Completely Off-Topic (Score:1)
This stream is of AVS Winamp scripts he's wrote. He wants to see how his server handles being slashdotted. I warned him that he probably didn't want the masses looking at his site, but he asked for it. So, if you have Mediaplayer, and want to see it...
Here's the link: [24.130.149.205]
Uncle Sam and the Computer Factory (Score:1)
Of course he wins the last one and when he arrives in America, Uncle Sam greets him and sings...
Come with me and you'll see
A job with pure degradation
Take a look and you'll see
Your salary going to inflation
Here's your manager
His name's Bob
He knows much less than you do
You'll get his coffee.
If you want to view paradise
You're in the wrong place
And we'll send you back
In 6 years.
Well naturally Our Hero finds out that Slugworth the IMS representative is actually a good guy and will let him stay (Yeah, right!)
Songs from the show:
The S and M man
The Boat Ride Over
Pure Degradation
Cheer Up Chan
The Cow-Orker Songs
I've got a Golden Shower
I've got the USA
Once I'm done writing it, I plan to make it an off broadway musical. Anyone want to act in it?
Re:After I Fuck your Mother, please (Score:1)
Re:Why not train more Americans? (Score:1)
Re:Give me your poor, your hungry, ... (Score:1)
Give me your poor, your hungry, ... (Score:2)
We are too greedy with our resources as it is (some statistic about how much the average american spends/uses vs avg Asian). I say let them switch jobs, make us americans work harder, its not a free world, isnt that the idea of capitalism??
Good for them, good for us. (Score:3)
On a different note, I'd rather shoot myself in the face than have to hear another unemployed 40-something engineer's sob story about being booted in favor of inexperienced kids (like me) or cheap intentured servants, er... H1's. Now the whiners will have one less excuse.
Seriously though- maybe this will help out the obvious age bias that older programmers (percieved as past their prime & too set in their ways) experience every day. Or not, but at least it's a step in the right direction.
Never trust the INS! (Score:1)
Whoever happens to pick up the phone at INS probably has no clue, and doesn't care.
Re:Wow! I thought that this wouldn't ever change (Score:1)
Anywho, it's a law now. Wonder if this will help me, a good old American citizen with two B.S.es get a job in a related field. (You'd think with a Mech. E and a Comp. Sci. degree, I'd be working somewhere other then Kinko's.)
Kierthos
Re:What does it mean exactly? (Score:2)
Another one answers your second question:
Does it affect at all that in order to get a green card you need to stay at the same company for the full (3-6 years) INS processing time?
The answer is "yes" - if you have to wait more than 6 months (180 days) for your green card after your initial I-140 approval, you can switch employers as long as the jobs are similar. With the current dates, this means that after no more than about two years after you first file paperwork for a green card, you could be able to change employers (this varies by geographical region a lot - in some places it can be year and a half). Another provision, that will help a lot of Indians and Chinese, is the "spill-over" of unused green cards at the end of each fiscal year to countries with backlogged priority dates.
Sounds good, doesn't it? Now, why did you have to ask this, then:
When does it go into effect?
Theoretically - October 17, when Bill Clinton signed it. In practice - when the INS publishes the regulations for implementing the law. My estimate - mid 2002. Sorry...
I'm very glad to hear this. (Score:1)
Re:About time! (Score:2)
This will force H1B loving companies into competing fairly for their employees (including H1B's).
While I think the new legislation is great (guess who just switched jobs), it isn't quite enough to make things fair for all H1B holders. Most (or at least a very large fraction of) H1B holders also apply for a greencard. If you switch jobs during the 4-5 years of the greencard process, your entire application is nullified.
That doesn't affect me, personally. I'm fairly certain I'll be staying with my new employer well beyond getting my greencard. There are many other who are essentially stuck with their current employer for at least a few years because of this. That can result in employers giving far less compensation to, or requiring far more work from, employees who are in the greencard application process. This harms not only foreign workers, but also American workers. It harms American workers because it gives some employers an incentive to choose foreign workers rather than Americans.
Re:I guess Larry Ellison won! (Score:1)
Re:Yes Immigrant Jail"!! (Score:1)
Come on!...the top excuses: (Score:1)
I somewhere read this "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and wastes your time". Not everyone is interested or have the skills to become a world class developer, just as I can learn to play de piano but I simply can't become a piano concertist because I simply don't have the whatever it takes to become one. Software engineering can't be taught in a classroom, it takes a great deal of energy on your side to become good at it. The best developers I have met learn without having to be pushed to it, they just love it and they pick up new skills quickly without needing to be trained. The best developers just pick a book and "eat it". If I had told my current employer that "I couldn't do Java because I have no training", I would be arguing with a crappy C++ developer on the advantages of using smartpointers so that I don't have to debug his/her memory leaks. It's all about YOU wanting to develop your skills and gettting out of zombie mode...please!
Companies get HI-B's because they are cheaper:
After six months of chaos, our team have finally got rid of every single line of code that a very unexperienced developer had created in the last two years. Practically the company paid a guy's two year's salary in vain. The codebase that we inherited was a real mess, we had to rewrite it ALL. The code was totally unstable and an endless source of bugs, of course the orignal author was a chep one (at least his code shows it), companies are beginning to realize that: CHEAP CODERS == CHEAP CODE and in the long run it costs more. Get good developers up-font and you will ship on time...because you don't have to rewrite the works of a mediocre developer.
There are PLENTY of American workers:
I have worked with some American developers that just kick ass, but most of the applicants are either:
- Highschool student that knows a littbe bit about Java and C++ (mostly syntax).
- Stranded mediocre developer with N years of "solid C/C++ development experience" who can't draw a class diagram on a whiteboard.
- Ex-C developer wanting to move into OOP (Kinda knows C++ syntax) but does functional decomposition when asked how to solve a simple problem in a OOP fashion.
- Wannabe manager with poor teamwork skills interested mostly in the "Engineering process" (step climber) while being unable to answer(in realistic terms) a simple question as "How do you manage your current team?".
- VB programmer who thinks focusing on a single technology makes them "more marketable".
This is just my view...before you troll about it...THINK!
I don't feel the need to append crap to what I write, please use the same courtesy.
Re:Uncle Sam and the Computer Factory (Score:1)
I liked this one; Why was it modded down?
Is one of the moderators actually a 'bot that mods down posts with LOTS OF WORDS IN ALL CAPS?Re:Come on!...the top excuses: (Score:1)
Dude! (Score:1)
unenforcable? (Score:2)
Do you have any cites on this?
Re:I'm very glad to hear this. (Score:1)
The suggestion that the H1-B status quo is akin to that of a slave (or even and indentured servant) is false and immoral. There are plenty of places in the world where people are exploited and made to work in slave conditions. The US IT marketplace is not one of those.
--
Interesting (misleading) figures (Score:1)
"According to a report by the General Accounting Office, the average H-1B worker makes a salary of just $45,000; a bargain in comparison with the average salary of $53,814 for a programmer in Silicon Valley, according to Salary.com. "
Isn't this interesting? They are comparing America-wide salaries to Silicon Valley salaries to make a point. They call this journalism? Not in my book, it's not.
Re:Lord Kano's Mom is a Gorilla (Score:1)
Current H1-B Holder (Score:1)
At times I feel like an indentured servant...
This will give me the flexiblity to "shop around" while waiting for my Green Card
this is excellent (Score:2)
Why not train more Americans? (Score:2)
Re:Wow! I thought that this wouldn't ever change (Score:1)
The article says that Bill Clinton signed the bill on Oct 17. Doesn't that mean that has turned into law already, or will do so as soon as the legal formalities are done?
Wow! I thought that this wouldn't ever change (Score:1)
About time! (Score:4)
It's a start - a small start, but an important one - towards reforming the INS bureaucracy that's put countless lives on hold for years.
And as for the H-1B bill being about "cheap labor", IMHO that's FUD. If you can't find the skills locally, you go abroad. Although there are companies that abuse the H-1B programme, the vast majority of companies that take advantage of it give their employees a fair shake -- and the reality is that if you're an employee who wants to join the US and get your Green Card, an H-1B is a damn good way to get your foot in the door.
The only thing I question is this: Why is this on /. today? The law (originally bill S.2045) passed both houses weeks ago. Its provisions are hardly news.
Re:Give me your poor, your hungry, ... (Score:1)
Is that a new advertisement on slashdot I see? (Score:1)
configuration file...
Re:About time! (Score:4)
What's particularly interesting is that Congress has now stated (in the "it is the sense of Congress that" sense of the word, not with actual dollars) that no transaction with INS ought to take more than six months.
You might think it's funny, but it's not! I'm an H1-B worker and I went home in August to visit my family (I'm Russian). Before I left, I called the INS and asked them which papers I needed to get a visa and re-enter the country. Well, he said that all I needed were just two pieces of paper which I already had. So, I left.
Unfortunately, I was misinformed by the INS -- I needed a whole bunch of other papers to get a visa to re-enter the country. (Just to clarify -- I was a student first and my H1-B status came through when I was in US on a student status, so I never had to get an H1-B visa per se prior to my August leave). One of the papers, a form I-129, which is original "Foreign worker" petition, was not on file with my employer, so they had to file a form with the INS to send them a copy of it. It's now November and we're still waiting for INS to send just a simple copy of a paper. No effort -- just find my file, and fax the document. We did get their receipt late in August, stating that we should be waiting for a reply within 80-120 days. 3 to 4 months to get a copy of a document! Absurd!
So, I'm stuck. Thankfully, my employer didn't terminate my job (which they could!) and I can still admin my servers via the Interet (which costs per minute here).
This ain't funny. I understand the waits when some decision-making is required, but heck -- just fax the friggin' paper!
they'll regret it .. larry et al will (Score:2)
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
What does it mean exactly? (Score:1)
I think the "portability provision" means that you can move to a new H1B job when the papers are submitted to INS, not when they finally have approved them. Correct?
Does it affect at all that in order to get a green card you need to stay at the same company for the full (3-6 years) INS processing time?
When does it go into effect?
Re:After I Fuck your Mother, please (Score:1)
There are other ways (Score:2)