Can the BSA Investigate Your office for Piracy? 314
Kool Moe was the first of several to note that the BSA is sending letters to companies saying they're offering a 'software truce' until December 1st... From the letter: "If your company takes steps to be sure they're fully compliant with all software licenses, the BSA will not fine you should they find you were not compliant previous to this date. If not, all bets are off and if the BSA finds you in violation, you could "face penalities totaling hundreds of thousands of dollars." The question is of course, can the BSA just come into your office and look? Is this a scare tactic? I'm definitely no expert since almost all of my stuff is free.
Re:Technically No, but.... (Score:2)
Re:Radio Commercial (Score:2)
Kill any disgruntled or soon-to-be disgruntled employee.
Employees who resign will find themselves on an island where giant white baloons scurry around the place.
Oh no! (Score:1)
Billg: I don't know much about what you do or what you're worth, but I wanted to buy you out just to be safe.
Homer: Woohoo! We're rich!
Billg: Okay boys...BUY HIM OUT!
Re:No (Score:1)
Re:software stormtroopers (Score:1)
Wow! if they fought back using the manual that came with Windows, it would be a short battle.
Got em (Score:1)
Why can't they? Because that's a different matter. (Score:1)
Searching bags/licenses/etc is an action that ultimately protects the other companies profits and doesn't concern me in the least. So I'm not so willing to have my rights violated in their interest.
No children were hurt or lives lost in the pirating of this software.
Making Windows 2000 all the more painful... (Score:1)
Our goal here is to retire our NTPDC, so we purchased a new server with Windows 2000 preinstalled. To upgrade the domain to NTDS, I (in direct violation of our license agreement!) installed WindowsNT4 as a BDC on a workstation, promoted that workstation to a PDC, and upgraded the workstation to Windows 2000.
In the end, it worked as well as could be expected and its time I uninstalled Windows 2000 from that workstation.
In the end, I'm thanful MS isn't as anal with their licensing as say, Citrix. At least with a MS system you can bump the number of CALs without actually having them, and the OS doesn't really check its cd-key agnist other windows 2000 servers on the network. (This is good because I have only one copy of Windows 2000, but 3 server licenses under an eOpen license.) MS licensing is complicated and annoying, but at least it's not in the way to the point that you can't get the job done.
Re:BSA Radio Ads are a bit beyond the pale (Score:1)
Re:I've got ya beat there... (kinda OT) (Score:1)
I've got one better: the security system at the bank I worked for used electronic keycards. Not the magstripe kind, the kind you wave in the general direction of the sensor.
Well, the keycard set those things off. Apparently I profile as An Honest Person, though, because the security person would usually wake up from their doze, I'd shrug at them, maybe wave my keychain-with-the-card-on-it, they'd wave me through. Never got stopped. Go figure.
What a plug for Linux (Score:2)
There's a great TV commercial in this. Do any of the Linux startups have any money left?
It's a shame that I'm not a business owner. (Score:3)
Re:Why can't they? (Score:5)
The only stores that CAN search you are ones that make membership contingent on you being searched -- I believe they make you sign forms to get the membership. (I am specifically thinking of Costco.) I am thinking that this may be something you could fight, but it would probably be a big scene.
But in any non-membership retailer, just say no and walk out. You're doing everyone a favor.
Don't give up your rights voluntarily to 'be nice' -- if everyone does that they disappear!
Re:No (Score:1)
Re:Not in America (Score:1)
Of course they can come in without a search warrant. This isn't criminal law we are talking about, it is tort law - which is a completely different animal. Want an example? How about MS shutting down the local government of Virginia Beach VA in order to look for license violations (link: http://www.theregister.co.uk/c ont ent/7/14496.html [theregister.co.uk] ).
Why do people work for jerks? (Score:2)
Re:the BSA (Score:2)
This is ridiculous. Although I do not even agree with that policy, it didn't even fall under it. The guy was not openly professing homosexuality on campus. He was being perfectly "normal". What happened was that his picture was taken at a gay rights parade, and published in a newspaper. The BSA saw this photo, and fired him.
Today, I hear a lot of people complaining about gay pride parades and such, saying something along the lines of this: "I don't care what you do or like, just keep it to yourself!" This is wrong. Twenty or thirty years ago, this is exactly what was happening. People were just keeping it to themselves. No problem, right? No problem until someone finds out about it, cans your ass, and gets you blacklisted.
This is why the whole gay rights movement started. To get it into national attention and to get people to recognize that it is "normal" and that people shouldn't get fired or blacklisted over their sexual orientation.
(To save you some time: No, I'm not gay.)
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Can you even play MP3s on that thing?
the BSA (Score:5)
Re:How do you search for pirated software? (Score:2)
Home Businesses (Score:3)
one more Boy Scouts funny (Score:2)
The troop of *Boy Scouts of America* is going to ride into my office on *British Small Arms* motorcycles equipped with *British Small fireArms* to validate my software on my *Beige Small Application* server?
Hm. how many more ways can I use BSA other than their original intention?
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
software stormtroopers (Score:4)
If they show up at my house/office/wherever, I'll beat them to death with an old UNIX manual in a laundry bag (sort of a geek's blackjack...).
Wow, the Boy Scouts are EVERYWHERE! (Score:3)
Just a few years ago, the Boy Scouts of America managed to prohibit homosexuals from being scoutmasters, and now they are into software piracy investigations! Will wonders never cease...
Matt Barnson
It's a Bluff (Score:4)
Does anyone have the URL for the case where Microsoft lost a piracy case because they were illegally investigating someone's computer files?
Re:Wrong. They can and do (Score:2)
Company executives need to be informed that they should seek the advice of an attorney immediately.
They should never allow an instant audit. But they should do an audit themselves as soon as the jackboots leave.
blessings,
Home users have nothing to fear. (Score:2)
When I was 16 or 17, I pirated Photoshop. Do you know how much Photoshop costs? Do you think I would've ever bought it had I not been able to pirate it?
Having pirated Photoshop, I began using it. I got familiar with it. Then, I got pretty good with it. A company offers me a job as a graphics designer. What software do you think I will ask for? How likely do you think it is that the company will not pay for the Photoshop license?
(By the way, this is only an example. I couldn't do graphics design if you put a gun to my head.)
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Can you even play MP3s on that thing?
Re:No they can't (Score:2)
Re:Home users have nothing to fear. (Score:2)
Makes sence to me...
Re:No they can't (Score:2)
Don't agree to such agreements! If you "click through" in order to use such software, then complain about it... You are just as bad as those people who buy a house next to an airport then complain about the noise.
99% of the legal problems in the software realm can be solved by getting rid of these bogus agreements. If a license is supposed to be a contract, then get an explicit agreement between the two parties. It doesn't matter if it's the GPL or the EULA, let's see a signature before you sue on the basis of an "agreement".
Good reason to use free software. (Score:3)
Re:It's a Bluff (Score:3)
About ten years ago, a former co-worker who was (then) working for a law office called me. One of their clients was being audited by the SPA. The SPA sent them a program on floppy that could be run on every PC: you entered an identifier for that PC, then it searched all local hard drives for EXE's and COM's and downloaded the info into a dBase III DBF. The program then cross-referenced known file names (of SPA members, I'm sure) to produce a report. (I'm sure their current software is somewhat more sophisticated, I'm curious what they'd do with a *nix shop.)
I ran a 'pre-SPA audit' audit for the client and produced a report showing all instances of the software they used (mainly AS/400 terminal emulator stuff) and turned it over to the lawyers. (at something like $50/hr, it was 10 years ago, after all)
I heard later that they were indeed in violation of their licensing, having installed it on more computers than they owned licenses. They coughed up a lot of money to come into license compliance. As far as I know and recall, there were no substantial amounts of illegal software, just the occasional person who brought in TurboTax or something.
A disgruntled former employee called the SPA and reported them, which is the normal source of investigations like this.
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Re:Yes--the BSA Can Raid Your Office (Sort of) (Score:4)
Actually, this is an excellent case for ensuring that all your employees ONLY use open source software, or worst case, if you have to use licensed software, that you not allow employees to install whatever they want on their systems. Otherwise, the company may end having to pay for 100 copies of Quake3 that the developers installed on their workstations, amongst other things. It sucks, but hey, this is what happens when you have organizations like the BSA around. Don't these guys realize this just further strengthens the case for only using free software?
Frankly, I would just ensure that my operation was only using free software, and not do business with companies that support these jack-booted thug like tactics of the BSA. I don't care what their argument is, you simply do not play cop with your customers. Its BAD for business. As a business owner and a customer, I simply would not, and will not, stand for this sort of nonsense and we would never shake our customers down like this - if we ever wanted to do business with them again.
From now on, we're going to ask our vendors if they are part of the BSA and insist that if they are, that they sign a contract with us that precludes them from disrupting our operations with this sort of nonsense. And if they won't sign it, then we're taking our business elsewhere. I suggest others do the same. I intimately understand what is behind the BSA's arguments, but their methods are unacceptable IMHO.
In all my years with many software and hardware companies, we never had to resort to these scare tactics, or worse yet calling in the feds on our customers. We simply did business with companies that were willing to pay for our software, and we didn't worry about the ones that didn't. What company in their right mind would want to use software from Vendor X in the future if they had been treated like this?
Python
Can they? Yes. (Score:2)
But only a court can force the issue.
Re:software stormtroopers (Score:2)
The BSA can't... (Score:2)
Re:BSA Radio Ads are a bit beyond the pale (Score:2)
Things have gotten out of hand and the BSAs behavior is a symptom, IMHO, of how out of wack copyright and other IP laws are.
Python
I doubt it (Score:4)
a) They are a government agency with some sort of enforcement powers
or
b) They are mentioned explicitly in a company's site license, as an inspector to ensure software legitimacy
Otherwise they have no grounds to actually turn up and demand entrance.
Unless, of course, they claim that they are in "hot pursuit", attempting to make a citizen's arrest
IANAL(BMDI)
I Am Not A Lawyer (But My Dad Is)
--Remove SPAM from my address to mail me
I hope they don't catch me (Score:3)
Cutting off nose despite face. (Score:2)
They can litigate, and cost you more in legal fees than the price of the software. Then the State/FBI gets a warrant and searches your systems, and if you are guilty, you're made to pay.
Just like the MPAA and the RIAA, the members of the BSA are cutting the branch whereupon they sit. They are alienating their consumers, and trying to make a buck quick, since they KNOW that they are on their way out. The simple solution to this problem is to switch to Free Software.
Yeah, yeah.. Free Software is only Free if your time is worthless.. Well, what is the TCO of Commercial Software: purchase, upkeep and license management included? How about we add the potential of litigation to that cost? Still cheaper than Free software?
Can you imagine what an Iron Fist they would have if there were NO free alternatives? I can see it now: Terminator 95 - the new Microsoft Pictures movie in which Bill Gates goes back in time to kill RMS and Linus comming to a DVD near you!
The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196
Re:It's a Bluff (Score:2)
It runs on "every PC", but looks for files exclusive to a specific operating system? There is an obvious contradiction here.
Legally, Yes, but its shady (Score:5)
-mark
Suitable Punishment (Score:2)
Slashdot: not quite a DDoS, but the next best thing.
Re:No Well yes! (Score:2)
Isaac
Re: (Score:2)
Yes--the BSA Can Raid Your Office (Sort of) (Score:5)
Yes--the BSA can raid your office. Here's how it works.
The BSA actively advertises for disgruntled employees or former employees to turn in companies that cheat on their license agreements. When they get a complaint they typically attempt to substantiate the allegation (that is, is the source of the complaint credible as a witness?). The process is quite similar to ascertaining the credibility of an informant by the police. We'll get to the reason why below.
If the BSA thinks there is something to the case, they will send a scary letter from the lawyers--we have reason to believe you are in violation of license agreements, etc. The letter will ask the company to "voluntarily" permit the BSA to come and audit the company's network to determine whether or not the company is in violation of license agreements.
If the company agrees to a "voluntary" inspection, the BSA shows up, installs a network app that scans the network for software from the BSA membership, and totals up the number of copies. They then ask the company to document purchases of all of the copies on the network--and they bill the company for the retail price of any copies that cannot be documented. Full retail can be a pretty stiff price to pay--but most companies figure that full retail is cheap compared to the cost of fighting the BSA in court. If the company pays up, the case ends.
If the company ignores the first scary letter, they get a second scary letter from the BSA lawyers. That is much more direct, and to the point. If the company agrees, the same "volutary" inspection happens.
But let's suppose that the company ignores the scary letters. If you've watched a videotape recently you will note that videotapes sold in the U.S. include a warning that copyright infringement is punishable under federal law, and is investigated by the FBI. Federal law permits private individuals (including corporations and associations) to gather evidence of a crime and present it to the feds for them to pursue. The BSA's initial complaint, buttressed by a "good faith" effort to enlist the company cooperation (that is, the first and second scary letters), is regarded by the FBI as justification for a warrant. (That's why the BSA evaluates the credibility of the complaint--that's a key part of the request for a federal warrant.) The FBI and/or the U.S. Marshals, with the BSA, arrive--unannounced--at the company site, with a federal warrant.
When they enter the premises they will serve the warrant, and they will announce, loudly, that everyone in the premises must stand up and step away from their keyboards immediately. These people are feds--they carry guns. They mean business. And they are serious. If this happens where you work, by all means, stand up, and step away from your keyboard. Do not try to be a hero for your employer and attempt to delete the 3000 bootleg copies of Leisure Suit Larry that you know are distributed across the enterprise. They can 'cuff you and arrest you.
Once the feds have "secured" the scene, the BSA people step up and install their network spy application to identify all the software on the network that doesn't have a license. If they find any (and they almost certainly will) they and the feds will propose a settlement: pay full retail, plus a whopping fine (like $1500 per copy) for each bootleg copy found. Or, face criminal prosecution by the FBI for copyright infringement--followed by a civil court action for damages after the criminal case is finished. Any company with half a brain (or anything resembling a competent lawyer) is going to cave and pay the "settlement". The cost (and the adverse publicity) of a criminal court proceeding is sufficiently onerous that its just smarter to pay up.
I have seen this happen at a former client, and recently declined an engagement with a prospective client because they just been raided by the feds and the BSA. There are too many good clients out there to bother getting associated with known bootleggers. (And if they cheat on their licenses, there's a good chance that they'll try to jerk us around too. Or at least that's the way we view it.)
This is, on the one hand, a compelling argument for paying for licenses and using license monitoring software to ensure compliance. On the other hand, this can also be a compelling argument for free (open source, home-brewed, or abandonware) software.
Re:I doubt it (Score:2)
Something which may not have any legal standing in the first place. Part of the point of the likes of UCITA is to actually give such things standing.
Re:I doubt it (Score:2)
Not a problem if they have a list of tame/paid off judges who will rubber stamp anything...
Re:BSA experience (Score:2)
Except that this is treated as a criminal case. If it wasn't do you think US federal law enforcement would have anything to do with this? The standard answer of police (of all kinds) in a civil matter is "get a lawyer".
Re:BSA Hedging their bets (Score:2)
Re:The BSA can't... (Score:2)
Assuming all judges are honest men and women who are intelligent and cannot be bought, bribed or intimidated. Unfortunatly not all judges meet these criteria. At one extreme you have those who are very skepical about any requests to issue a warrent at the other extreme you have those who will rubber stamp.
excellent MS manuals (Score:2)
Why this sounds like you're criticizing Microsoft's manuals. How unfair! Microsoft's OS manuals are excellent and thorough. For example the OEM copy of Windows 98 that came with my laptop included, at no additional charge, four thick books, including the 1300 page User's Guide, the 900 page Complete Guide to the Registry, and the 650 page Programmer's Addendum; the best part of that last was the plenitude of source code examples, to help users who might be inclined to use DEBUG to whip out a quick utility... Of course that can't compare with the comprehensive boxed set of hardbound manuals, and the ten-disc set of source code CDs, which came free with my copy of NT...
What? You mean you didn't get these manual sets with your copies of MS's fine OSes? Something must be wrong! Perhaps. in violation of their licensing agreement with MS, your OEM short changed you? I think you should call the BSA and complain.
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
Re:Interesting question (Score:2)
If they are smart they put a clause in to the effect that "If any of this isn't legal then the rest still stands".
They count on a lack of legal knowledge among their customers.
This behaviour is hardly unique to software companies. It wouldn't surprise me if the companies know full well some of their conditions have no legal standing what so ever.
German courts for instance ruled that any agreement or license that was not shown on the outside of a box when buying software (ie. couldn't be read before purchasing) was not legal. Likewise, most limited warranties are not applicable in Holland simply because they interfere with Dutch consumer laws.
No doubt such things continue to exist, written in German and Dutch. And will probably continue to exist even after the vast majority of people know full well they are nonsense.
Except some kind of FUD to prevent all software used in the EU being purchased in Germany
Re:No (Score:2)
Nothing to fear? NTF my ass!
I'm Number 2 on the I/S totem pole at a 40-employee company. We provide claims and H/R management expertise to a number of regional clients. We're not Fortune 1000.
However, that didn't stop an ex-tech from installing a bunch of unlicensed software, getting fired and then ratting us out to the BSA! Didn't matter that HE was the one responsible for the violations in the first place!
We're still working on compliancy and have, since the initial BSA notification, installed a Software Licensing person.
I remember when the CEO asked me to do an inventory for "this BSA group" that I thought it was some minor deal. One website visit later I was having flashbacks of SPA raids...that I heard about...from somebody...at another company...
GTRacer
- GT3 is delayed? Great! Get it right this time!
Re:It's a shame that I'm not a business owner. (Score:2)
Probably the exact reason why other people have indicated that the BSA don't come alone, but instead with some high powered "law enforcement" officers.
Re:No (Score:2)
They can't search my home or office because they will never get a search warrant. Can I search your home?
They can't fine me because they're not the police. Can I fine you?
They can't judge me because they're not the DoD. Can I send you to prison?
The BSA is just a subsidiary of M$ and friends. They have no official law enforcement mission. All they can do is threaten you or ask the real cops to get you.
BTW, fp!
____________________
Why can't they? (Score:2)
It's all for our safety/protection/the children, so what are you complaining about? Remember the terrorist bombing/shooting/robbery or Flight 880/Denny's/Flight 007?
BSA Radio Ads are a bit beyond the pale (Score:4)
This ad was one of the most disgusting things I have heard in a long time. The gist of the ad was "Do you want revenge on your employer? Phone us and report them as software pirates."
I promise that I'm not kidding or exaggerating here. The commercial actually states several times how much trouble you, the disgruntled employee, can get your boss in if they don't have good records of their software licenses.
Now, I believe that businesses should legitimately purchase software and track their licenses, but it's often difficult to know where ALL such things are at any given point in time. This clearly is intended as a scare tactic aimed at executives, since we all know that if you look hard enough, you can probably find something that some employee brought in from home on a company computer.
Re:Result of Sagging Software Profits (Score:2)
As well as laws in Europe being less friendly to the sort of stuff that software companies like to put in their licences in the first place.
Re:Time to read those EULAs (Score:2)
You need someone who knows the law well enough to be able to strike out the bits which don't actually apply. Unless you are in Germany where a thick marker pen can do the job...
Re:BSA imposing fines? (Score:2)
Probably better for several "somebodies" to file separate suits. Class action suits can help the defendant, in that they only need one set of lawyers...
BSA could become way too powerful. (Score:4)
Estimated PCs Purchased = a
Office suites Purchased = b
% of pirated software = (a-b)/b
So, they count every PC, whether or not it's actually running an office suite. Hmmm. What about free (as in beer) software? Well, they apparently don't count it. So, they get these inflated figures, and scare everybody into giving them some sort of regulatory power.
Scary stuff.
Fallacy, Mispellings, and Italy (Score:2)
And shame on you for your bad grammer God of all that is Taco.
Here [bsa.org]is the official anti-piracy website in Italian.. couldn't find it in english
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Unlikely, but which BSA? (Score:4)
The Business Software Alliance might be able to investigate you for piracy, but only if you (a) have contracted with them to allow this, or (b) they can convince a judge that they have probable cause to believe you have comitted an offence.
This also applies to the Bavarian and the British Columbia Software Alliance, but may not be true of the Brest Software Alliance,, or anywhere else where the old French business codes apply. Perhaps Singapore [bsa.org]?
Re:The BSA can't... (Score:2)
Depending on what the BSA needs to start an investigation of your organization, that might not help you. Instead of providing proof that you've paid for all the commerical software you use, you'd have to provide proof that you don't use any at all, which may not be quite as burdensome, but would still suck.
The best thing to do would be to let them run their little scanner and find no proprietary software. Then tell them to get out and never darken your door again lest they be sued for harassment. No digging for documentation, no worries about simple accounting accidents, no need to do install accounting.
Politically, the BSA would lose face if it got out that they were making accounting demands on companies that don't even HAVE any software (legitimatly or otherwise) that could be pirated. Especially if said companies announced that one reason was because of the jack booted thug tactics of the BSA.
If the decision to use only Free software is philosophical as well as practical, the BSA's agenda starts to come into question. Considering the bad feelings a growing number of proprietary software users have towards the BSA (and given their latest tactics, the bad feelings WILL grow) the last thing they need is public accusations that they harass Free software supporters (true or not).
Re:Wow, the Boy Scouts are EVERYWHERE! (Score:3)
Technically No, but.... (Score:5)
If they have to whip out the lawyers and you lose they'll show absolutely no mercy in an effort to make an example out of you. Remember, copyright violations have criminal penalties associated with them, so they can try to put people in jail on top of taking far more money than you would have had to pay had you just let them walk in and audit you. So, no, they technically can't but if you have half a wit of business sense, you'll just let them for fear of the consequences.
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Re:Legally, Yes, but its shady (Score:2)
`ø,,ø`ø,,ø!
They can do it on the way in. (Score:2)
On the way out, they have absolutely no right to deny you the right to leave unless they're willing to place you under citizen's arrest with probable cause. As stated before -- refusal to be searchde is not probable cause.
If they don't have probable cause (as mentioned in a previous post), then all that they can do in response to a refusal to be searched is to ask you to leave (job done). If they try to stop you from leaving (short of a formal arrest), then it's called 'illegal confinement'. If they touch you in the process, you can probably add assault, and any assortment of civil and criminal complaints (talk to your lawyer on this). There's a reason why the stores responded in the way they did in a previous post [slashdot.org] that addressed this issue head-on.
`ø,,ø`ø,,ø!
Re:Overstepping their bounds (Score:2)
If they found one at Microsoft, do you think they'd listen to him? Then again . . .
``Uh, Steve, it came to our attention that since you don't have a site license for your software, & we found three hundred copies of Windows 2000 without a license in your Redmond offices. You're gonna get sued for software piracy."
``What??? We own the &%$!! software!!! Are you stupid???"
``Steve, if we could have passed the IQ tests, we would have jobs as real police officers."
Geoff
Re:Overstepping their bounds (Score:2)
Yes, my bad. Clearly commercial != closed source, and it is closed source commercial vendors that are holding their customers hostage. I have got nothing against commercial vendors that release their source code. In fact, I encourage them (by purchasing distributions instead of downloading them).
Fun with Microsoft (Score:3)
2.) Scan your web server logs for a download from microsoft.com or bsa.org of your "application."
3.) Demand an audit of Microsoft and / or the BSA. Use a network scanner to scan for your "application."
4.) Make them open holes in their firewall so you can remotely scan for and disable your "application."
4.) If they don't comply, call the Feds. Hey, its their rules.
It would be interesting to see their reaction with the situation reversed. I'm sure its no fun to be audited. Would they fight against this action in court and risk setting a precident against themselves?
Re:software stormtroopers (Score:2)
and in related news, pirate detector vans (Score:5)
This can be found at The Register [theregister.co.uk] in this story [theregister.co.uk]
A partial quote
Visitors to Glasgow Central Station yesterday were surprised to be confronted by a Ford Transit van with a small radar and rusty Sky satellite dish mounted on top. What was this apparition? Why, the BSA's latest weapon in the war against software-stealing scum.
A wise reader asked one of the "consultants" what exactly the dishes were able to do and was informed they could detect PCs running illegal software. When pushed a little further, she admitted the van was "just a dummy" but the BSA still had a fleet of the real things rushing around Scotland detecting and nabbing unsuspecting criminals.
BSA Investigating Your Private Part (Score:2)
But I think we should all stand up and tell the BSA we don't want our private parts investigated!
Re:Why can't they? Because that's a different matt (Score:2)
Or, maybe metal detectors because of the Oklahoma bombing? Yes, a metal detector would have stopped them from driving a truck into the building.
Why not require everyone to travel nude, so they can't hide anything?
Re:Yes--the BSA Can Raid Your Office (Sort of) (Score:2)
Re:the BSA (Score:2)
- I remember when it was all about camping.
Camping? Camping indeed. Camping with night vision goggles, infrared spying equipment, and radio spy equipment!! Ever wonder why they always camp in the woods? That's right, Washington has a lot of trees, surrounding Redmond perhaps?It's a conspiracy I tell you. What's really suspect is that this came out on the same time this so-called "recount" did. I tell you man, Mulder is in trouble!!
Overstepping their bounds (Score:2)
Legally, in the US, the 4th amendment to the constitution grants everyone protection from unwarranted searches and seizures. They would need to be a law enforcement officer (which they are not) WITH a search warrant (which they won't have either) to be able to force a company to show them their software licenses. And that over-rides any click-wrap EULA crap on the software (no matter how evil and draconian it might be).
Theoretically, a law enforcement officer "in hot pursuit" would be able to perform search and seizure without a search warrant before hand. But I don't see that as a possibility with software licenses.
No, it's just another big-business and/or big-business crony trying to quietly slip you under their domination, they love trying to do that when you're not watching.
BSA experience (Score:4)
For reference, if you are ever audited by the BSA, you'll need proof of ownership. That means an invoice, credit card statement, or any other piece of paper that establishes who you bought it from, payment form, vendor order number, and the quantity purchased. Lawyers love paper trails....
Re:The BSA can't... (Score:2)
Or, just to throw an alternative out there, you could try paying for commercial software you use. Just a thought.
IANAL, but it's my suspicion that this the majority of these cases are going to turn out to be chest-thumping. Law enforcement can't (or at least, shouldn't) go around obtaining search warrants unless they're within the context of an investigation, and that would mean the BSA pointing the finger and saying "Je vous accuse" with whatever evidence they already had.
Although, the more I think about it, the likelier it seems that with the amount of funding the BSA receives, it could actually pursue one or three high-profile cases against companies using pirated software. That's all it takes to get the ball rolling - I don't see many organizations lining up to take the BSA on.
Interesting question (Score:2)
I am pretty sure though they will need a warrant for this and they will have to be able to show some proof that the warrant is justified beforehand. I've seen large newspaper ads here in Holland a while back, saying that they "would be coming to your business to check your licenses soon" without mentioning this fact. I think they might rely on ppl being intimidated into allowing them to enter the company's or persons premises to investigate thus circumventing the need for a warrant. I for one wouldn't let them near anything without a warrant, if only for the fact that this is the proper procedure. I might have some confidential material on my pc's when they come to "check my licenses" and i couldn't justify just letting them peep at this stuff without a legal obligation. Does anyone know how often they are able to get a warrant and on what grounds ?
I have found in the past that software companies don't usually bother checking local laws when putting together licenses and related material. They count on a lack of legal knowledge among their customers. German courts for instance ruled that any agreement or license that was not shown on the outside of a box when buying software (ie. couldn't be read before purchasing) was not legal. Likewise, most limited warranties are not applicable in Holland simply because they interfere with Dutch consumer laws.
Does anyone have any direct experience with this ?
innocent until proven guilty? (Score:2)
Re:Overstepping their bounds (Score:2)
IOW, law enforcement officers couldn't say "we don't know if you're using pirated software or not, or even what software you're using, but we still want to have a look". Or, more clearly, they can't shake you down because you haven't proven you don't use pirated software, they have to find evidence (such as a witness) that you are violating license agreements or running pirated software.
The law permits ex parte seizures . . . (Score:3)
That being said, nothing permits BSA to fine anybody, or to get anything from anyone until a judge or jury makes an award. As to searching and seizure, the Copyright Act DOES provide for ex parte searches in some cases of known infringement, when the searches are warranted.
However, in some recent 6th Circuit cases, a court held that an illegal search or seizure can constitute a civil rights violation and various torts, and that the lawyers representing a plaintiff can share in liability jointly and severally with their clients. So, they better get it right.
If a plaintiff does sue, however, they will ultimately be able to get complete discovery, which will likely include a tour of premesis and right to view computers on-site.
In short, BSA has a lot of clout, unless a defendant is prepared to defend himself. And this clout (threat of suit, threat of statutory damages, threat of attorney fees, threat of ex parte search and seizure and threat of being nasty) is what they use to justify their fine.
There are, however, counter-tactics that may be taken. Filing an action of your own, and making an appropriate offer of judgment can be used to create the possibility of an award of fees for a defendant, when the plaintiff wins but doesn't get their "fine" from the jury. If an ex parte search is unlawful, the defendants can seek remedies as well.
Whether any of these counter-tactics are available, or if available, advisable depends upon specific facts. You should always consult with counsel who has considered your specific case before making any decisions.
Re:No they can't: True in Mauritius (Score:2)
A friend of mine turned in a cybercafe owner because he refused to pay his wages and did some other evil things to him.
He went to a Microsoft office, and met a guy in charge of Piracy. He was advised to contact their lawyer, and he signed an official 'turning in' paper. Because the cybercafe owner was also selling computers will pirated versions of windows pre-installed, the lawyer sent someone to the shop who really BOUGHT a computer to check whether pirated software is really being delivered and to use this as evidence.
After a few days, the lawyer, a guy from the BSA, an independent technician, and members of the local police raided the place and confiscated nearly everything. The owner gave the lamest excuse of all: he was the victim of a theft and the robbers stole all his licenses!!!
In addition to running a cybercafe with pirated software and selling computers with pirated software, the owner was also detained for giving computer courses on pirated versions of Novell.
My friend was rewarded a few weeks after with a good sum of money.
Remember that its not straightforward, people dont just enter the BSA office and say "Hey, ABC company is using pirated software and the BSA people come rushing in with the police"
Remember, the BSA officials are NOT law enforcement agents. They do NOT have the right to come search your office, unaccompanied by the police and they won't and yes, a search warrant is required, at least where I live.
Dont put your employer in an embarassing situation. Dont use pirated software at office ok?
Maybe he sucks but you get your salary from him.
Re:The BSA can't... (Score:2)
Re:The BSA can't... (Score:2)
Or, just to throw an alternative out there, you could try paying for commercial software you use. Just a thought.
And get harassed as a POTENTIAL pirate anyway. I prefer to use software where piracy is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid any of those issues.
No they can't (Score:3)
All they can do is file a lawsuit, like anyone else can. So when is industry going to file a suit against the BSA for harrasment?
Re:I doubt it (Score:2)
Citizen's arrest is probably the reason that they raid with real law enforcement people. Otherwise the BSA would spend all its time getting its people out of jail.
The BSA won't do the leg work... (Score:3)
It's like this: Bill goes to Al Bush, and explains how all these people are robbing him and that because of that, he may not have money to contribute to the next campaign or sponsor the conference in $PLUSH_VACATION_SPOT. Al Bush then appoints a couple BSA people as special agents and sends them out with a few of the regularly armed boys. They knock on your door with a warrant and proceed to confiscate everything you have to stay in business.
Remember the golden rule. The BSA will always act in a legal way, because it is so easy for them to change the definition of 'legal'.
Re:and in related news, pirate detector vans (Score:3)
(This is a geek site so I don't have to explain the Monty Python reference you you)
Answer: yes, but only thru legal channels (Score:2)
Re:Overstepping their bounds (Score:3)
The Business Software Alliance can almost certainly scrounge up one unhappy ex-employee in every large company on the planet. If they awarded "bounties" they could probably even get happy current employees. For example, let's say that they offered potential witnesses a reward of 33% of all monies recovered in a successful investigation. With the right employer that could be worth a big fat pile of cash.
Commercial software houses have their users by the short hairs, and things are just now starting to get interesting. With UCITA's remote termination, increased pressure from the BSA, and the push towards ASPs and pay-by-the-hour software the "freedom" offered by Free Software is looking more attractive all of the time.
Legally? (Score:4)
Can they forcibly audit your records or systems? Not without first filing a lawsuit, and then only as part of the discovery process-- which can be very invasive.
Can they levy a fine against you for alleged infractions? Sure. They can do this with or without evidence.
Are you obligated to pay the fine? No. Unless the fine is, in fact, a damages award resulting from a trial or settlement of a lawsuit.
Can they do something awful to you if you refuse to pay the fine or comply with the audit? That depends. I'd personally rather not go to court over this.
Why? Wouldn't this get thrown out in most jurisdictions unless there was strong evidence (i.e. someone has snitched) of wrongdoing? Yes. But the BSA and its members could very legitimately refuse to sell you any further software or licenses. They could also block your IPs from their download sites. You don't have a Constitutional right to buy their software. They can refuse your business.
But this is insane, isn't there something we can do? Yes. Don't buy software that is not Free.
BSA Hedging their bets (Score:3)
1) BSA is hedging their bets in case anyone wants to audit them... their web-site runs FreeBSD/Apache according to Netcraft [netcraft.com]
2) On their home page they mention Software Piracy costing the Global Economy over 10 billion dollars. Where do they get this number? Isn't this irrational, since usually, any money saved in one sector, is most likely going to be spent in another (new car, bigger house, nicer clothes). Okay, I *MIGHT* buy it if they said that it was costing the Global Software companies over 10B, although I'd still like to know where they are getting their numbers, but they don't say that. They say Piracy is hurting the Global Economy. Fine... prove it. Can they break thier numbers apart per country? Per Company? And how does the availability of software affect the "Global Economy" also? If for instance a Chinese shoe manufacturing plant is able to be productive and turn out more shoes (and thus in turn have more units that are sold) wouldn't this balance the 3 copies of MS Office 95 that they are using illegally? At least politicians try to lie believably. The BSA's "Global Economy" seems (to me at least) to reak of Marketspeak.
Re:Legally, Yes, but its shady (Score:2)
Excuse me.. does that mean that suspicion of non-compliance was enough to get a search warrant (which then led to an audit to determine compliance)? Or does that just mean that, if you granted the permission to audit, and then it uncovered non-compliance, then that was enough to get a search warrant (to then gather the same evidence again to use in court against you)?>[?
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cs_office a reality? (Score:2)
they do! (Score:2)
we all know tha the main backer of BSA is microsoft (in the panama branch at least). So far they haven't broken any laws by doing what they do, they're just bullies at it....
oh, and they usually do it on friday at 4:50PM...
Re:software stormtroopers (Score:3)
Based on the size of some of those old UNIX manuals, and on my current lack of physical shape, I don't think I'd do well at LIFTING the manual, much less using it as a weapon...
Re:Legally? (Score:2)