Dune Scores Huge Ratings 354
aldheorte writes "CNN is reporting "out-of-this-world" ratings for the now-complete Dune mini-series. Apparently, 3.06 million homes tuned in, making for the biggest orginal series in Sci-Fi Channel's history. I think it is a fair to good adaptation of a very difficult work, though I would appreciate a doubling of the episodes including more scenes from the book as well as more background on all, especially supporting, characters."
I've also decided that the ultimate goal for any living human being is
to get to be in one of those "I am Sci-Fi" commercials. I immensely enjoyed the series, and look forward to them continuing the saga.
Bastardization of a great work (Score:1)
Paul had his sons in the next book and not one of them was killed in the first.
The emporer's daughter was created solely for this television adaption.
There were no weirding modules in the television mini as there should have been, nor did Paul use the weirding voice to crash the ship that was taking he and his mother over the desert! Key to the development of the character's awareness of his abilities!
Duncan did not rescue Paul and his mother from the deep desert.
They never attacked the Harkonans until Paul was Moadib and they had the weirding modules.
He DID NOT marry the fabricated emporer's daughter in the book! Complete garbage!
Oh, and the guy playing Gernie sucked a dead donkey's balls dry. He was horrible!
I thoroughly hated this series. There was absolutely no need whatsoever to alter the story from the original in any way. They had a six hour canvas to treat it with respect and do it right. But, like all television projects based on books, they failed miserably.
Re:I can't see dune! (Score:1)
Democracy? Hello, they've got a fuckin' Queen... They have an entire house of Parliment that is populated with Nobility... democracy my ass.
Re:"Cheesy background effects" (Score:3)
I won't comment on the effects since its mostly a matter of taste, and while I liked them overall, I also realised that they were acting on a budget.
A friend of mine (female) who had never seen Dune (the movie) or read any of the books was really getting into the story and enjoyed watching it a lot. There were definately some things that she didn't understand (_some_ voice overs, or background info at the beginning of each segment probably would have added to most peoples overall enjoyment).
Gee... If you stopped watching after an hour then I guess you didn't notice a few things, like the storm that sweeps in when they blow the shield wall and pumelts their shields into uselessness, with the ornothoptors flying through in the middle of the storm to destroy some fleeing airships... of course since you saw that bit you must have watched it almost to the end.
I agree, they downplayed the Worms a bit too much (either from budgetary constraints, or from fear of comparison to the movie). The group that Paul sends into the desert, are you refering to the group he talks about when confronting the emperor and telling him that he has men ready to pour changed water of life into a large patch of pre-spice mass thereby beginning a chain reaction that would kill all the makers, and purge arakis of all spice production? (last twenty minutes of the movie or so, so you may have missed it in your haste to flee). I do admit they could have done more with the worms.
They also cut a few scenes I wouldn't have, but I also liked some of the liberties they took. The use of captured 'thoptors to maintain air superiority is not unreasonable, the introduction of the young empress earlier on in the story makes her less of a shallow character, and we are now well aware that she can be cunning and dangerous (since she obviously manipulated her own father at the end of the story to get him to Dune).
Overall this was much more faithfull to the book than the Lynch movie (at least these still suits covered your whole body... yeah... we're going to march through terrible desert wearing a suit to reclaim our moisture and protect us from the desert... oh, and it doesn't cover our heads).
Compressor / Limiter (Score:2)
The sound is not actually louder, but in a way it is. A common practice is to use a sound compressor to boost the level, and then a limiter to keep the level below the maximum allowable. This means that explosions and normal conversation will sound just as loud, and so what is really happening in the commercial is that the guy talking about the new car you should have is lifted to the level of the massive explosion you just heard in the TV movie.
This, when overdone, makes the sound crappy, but allows for all sound to be near the maximum level. In effect, the ads are louder overall, but everything is kept within the threshold of the actual programming.
I believe that this is used more on late night TV and specialty channels, and less in prime time on the major networks.
This post is all "as far as I know" so please correct me on technicalities, etc...
Re:You're right... (Score:2)
Re:loud ads (Score:1)
Re:May your blade chip and shatter (Score:1)
You're talking about David Lynch here. DAVID LYNCH. ( http://us.imdb.com/Name?Lynch,+David )
His adaptation was so far better that it's embarassing. He's a goddamn genius. (see eraserhead, wild at heart, blue velvet, or lost highway or reference)
And I think it's a testament to what a spectacular filmmaker David Lynch is that a movie he made 16 years ago is more believable and has beter special effects than a movie made today with all the digital tools available.
And worse than that, you're saying that this blonde kid's acting was better than Kyle MacLachlan? Please, please, please. The scene where he kills Jamis was so poorly built up, I didn't even care who won. It was extremely poor.
Let me repeat, D-a-v-i-d L-y-n-c-h. One of the greatest filmmakers to ever live. And you're trying to compare a tv mini series to his work?
</end rant>
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Re:"Cheesy background effects" (Score:2)
I watched the first hour or less of each night, and gave up in annoyance each time. Some of my gripes:
Cheap Effects- The title credits, where "Dune" breaks up into puzzle-piece chunks. Blowing away as individual sand particles would have looked much better. Or were they using hand-me-down Wintel desktops to do the renders?
- The opening shot of Arakeen (landscape view of a big fortress, Shield Wall in the background) was just a static matte. It was probably just an oil painting, and it showed. Definitely should have been a 3D panning shot instead.
- The worms somehow moved across the desert by magic. I only saw two scenes, each about a second long, that actually showed undulating segments to provide locomotion. The rest of the time they looked like fish lures being pulled forward by an invisible cord.
- Desert backgrounds behind characters in close-up invariably looked fake. Lighting angles were usually way off.
Bad StorytellingRe:Power Word Kill -- HELLO!!! (Score:1)
Re:The Neilson Ratings (Score:1)
Re:Lynch is an artist. (Score:1)
The good, the bad, and the ugly (Score:2)
About Paul, you wrote, "he looks like a crazy religious psycho to me."
I thought he played the part to perfection. For some reason, the religious fanatacism that Herbert was trying to get across never really struck me, but when I saw the character transform himself from "annoyed kid stuck when his dad got a job transfer to some hick town" to "atheist exploiting a legend" into "messianic fanatic", wow, I think he did an excellent job making the part and character come to life! Just seeing that him play that part causes Children of Dune and Dune Messiah to suddenly make sense.
I also thought they brought the character of Irulan out very well. Smart, scheming, flirtatious, playing all sides (including her father) against each other -- all of that was never made so clear as in this version.
Chani also came out better here. In the Lynch version, you hear the voice-over of Irulan saying "Paul's love for Chani grew." Five thin words to describe a torrid romance? At least she gave Paul a character he could love.
Feyd was also played very well. Condescending, smug, arrogant, haughty, he had it all and balanced it well. And at least the Baron wasn't given to perversions we couldn't understand in this version.
But there was also some really bad acting. William Hurt (the only "name" in the SciFi version) couldn't have inspired a troop of Cub Scouts with his lack of enthusiasm, much less lead a Great House.
The navigators were just stupid. "Hey, lets wave our hands mystically and dramatically when we get upset." Why? And what was with the melange of bad accents? It was like being at the Rennaisance Festival trying to figure out if any of these people had actually ever been to Britain.
And ugly? How about Stilgar? Paul should have just called him out and taken his middle-aged, balding, paunchy water. He looked more like a pointy-haired boss than a knife-fighting, water-starved, sietch-inspiring leader. I couldn't get past his appearance far enough to notice his acting.
The SciFi version did bring some fresh new perspectives to some of the characters. I found it more engrossing than the Lynch version, by far.
John
Musings on word pronunciations (Score:3)
I don't understand why people would be so bugged by that, as there is no right answer.
Do the people of Dune speak the Queen's English or Webster's English?
Does it even matter?
Musings on a Messiah (Score:2)
Positives:
Negatives:
This was a great effort, and I'm glad that so many new people are being exposed to the series. Too bad I haven't heard plans to go the distance with the books - my personal favorite is Chapterhouse: DUNE, the final book in the series. Darwi Odrade is probably Herbert's best character in the series and the other characters (Teg, Murbella, Idaho, and Lucilla) are probably his best ensemble. *sigh*
Rock on.
Re:loud & horrid ads (Score:2)
loud ads (Score:2)
It was never going to be perfect - but is it good? (Score:2)
Adapting Dune is a nightmarish concept, a huge, sprawling, detailed mixture of metaphor, historical reference, psychology, and politics. The question is, do you feel its worth adapting and can you make the story transition to the adaption.
Well, as it is a classic, I felt it was worth trying to adapt it, if for nothing else but the challenge. If it went down in flames, then lesson learned, life goes on. The question is, how well did it transition to the screen? I'd say, pretty good. It was never going to be perfect (and we'll hear of this again when Lord of the Rings coms out). But I felt it suceeded on several levels.
- The basic story of a feudal culture in space, the making of a messiah, and the repercussions was told.
- The major elements of the story were kept in, and fortuntely (mostly) cabbagehead-level explanations were kept out.
- The actors, though not always perfect, did a good job, and I feel that the cast had fun making this.
- Liberties taken, in general, were done to help move things along and condense the book. (Some of the Irulian stuff bugged me, admittedly).
Success? Yes, I feel. Perfect? It was never going to be.In the end, I feel this success will open up media people to new ideas, to adaptions of classics, to more limitied but larger-scope series. It'll change the status quo, hopefully.
Dune itself did that when it came out. It's just doing it again in a different medium ;)
Re:Am I the only one... (Score:2)
As far as the "religious fanatic" statements, that's because the Fremen see Paul as a religious figure. He is the Mahdi, the Voice from the Outer World, the Savior, the One who will bring them Out of Darkness. If that ain't religious, I don't know what is.
Re:"Cheesy background effects" (Score:2)
Yeah, and while we're at it, lets make the still suits BLACK. In the desert, that'll work real well.
Lynch movie had some very nice artistic elements to it, but it fell down on quite a few 'reality oriented' points.
Re:Lynch looks more brilliant now than ever (Score:2)
Re:Is it just me or ... (Score:2)
Fremen looked like Aiel (Score:2)
Weirding way / Voice explanation (Score:2)
Re:Is it cool to condemn what is popular? (Score:2)
But that's not going to stop me from refusing to see the movie ET!
Re:Am I the only one... (Score:5)
Read the book, and pay attention in the early chapters that provide history and context.
The main personal handgun or long gun of the day is a sort of laser. These lasers interact explosively (on the order of a small fusion bomb) with personal force shields that are very common. Hence the shields preclude the use of the lasers except as a form of suicide bombing.
The shields completely stop fast moving projectiles like bullets and shrapnel but allow air and slow moving solid objects to penetrate. Hence the art of knife fighting is very important as hand-to-hand combat with a sharp, pointy object is about the only way to get past the shields without significant collateral damage. One main story point about Paul is that he is trained in this knife fighting technique by the best fighters of the time, and he ends up being very, very good at it. He teaches these skills to the Fremen, making them more deadly warriors than anyone else within the strictures mentioned above.
Finally, the whole story was set in a historical context which is hyper-influenced by the "Butlerian Jihad". This was a conflict which apparently affected the whole interstellar civilization. The basic premise of the Butlerian Jihad was to overthrow and exterminate mechanization of human talents and emphasize, glorify and enhance human abilities in the humans themselves. The Prime Directive of the Butlerian Jihad was something like, Make no machine which can usurp the authority or ability of humans. Associated with the hatred of machines was a passion for extending human abilities. Hence you get the human computer "mentats" (Thufir Hawat)), the political genius of the Bene Gesserit (Reverend Gaius Helene Mohiam), and the incredible fighters (Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halek). There was strong opposition to even exploring non-human methods of accomplishing just about anything, including fighting. The overwhelming emphasis on combat was for personal, hand-to-hand fighting of humans not seperated from each other by the hated machines. Major military forces generally had two classes of weapons: mass destruction with nuclear weapons and large, highly trained fighting forces. That was it, no subs or tanks or aircraft carriers. War was conducted either with great big bombs or hand-to-hand with almost no in-between.
These plot points are absolutely necessary to support the importance of Paul's training and the fighting abilities of the Fremen in relation to the similarly trained and constrained Sardaukar. Indeed, the main reason that the Emperor helped bring down Paul's father, Duke Leto, was that the Duke had come close to raising and training his own army that was as good as the Sardaukar. Paul succeeded in the Fremen where his father's efforts with his own army were cut short. All of that knife fighting was very, very important to the story. Don't just dismiss it as silly within our own military context of today.
Re:Fremen looked like Aiel (Score:2)
I have to agree with you. Rand obviously doesn't come from such an amazingly exalted background and thus doesn't have the sense of noblesse that Paul does, but otherwise Paul/Freemen/BG map closely to Rand/Aiel/Aes Sedai.
You're right... (Score:2)
The broadcasters do not turn up the volume during commercials. There are two things I can think of off hand that cause louder commercials.
The first thing is that the show is doing something different than the commercial. That is, the background music is subtle, and people may even be whispering, or having no sound at all. Then BAM! A guy is suddenly yelling at you to buy used cars.
The second thing is that commercials try to be as full as possible, and use any means they have. They use as much "bandwidth" on their recordings as possible - in other words, they take the loudest part of their commercials, and crank up the recording so that the peak level is the highest level they possibly can use. I do the same thing when I'm recording cassette tapes - I listen to the loudest part of the song first, and adjust the level to match the highest the tape is meant to hold.
So, in effect, they are turning up the volume - but the broadcaster isn't doing it, it's done by the ad agencies on the source tapes.
In other words, if you used a decibel meter, I'm sure commercials would be louder, overall, it's just not due to the guy at the TV/Radio station cranking up the output. Probably the peak level of the commercials would be equal to the peak level of the movie/show, but the commercials are giving it to you constantly while the movie only gets really loud at a certain few parts.
I also noticed, when I got my first stereo TV, that the only thing I got in stereo were commercials - so there's another factor. Old content recorded in mono, while advertisements, using all the features available to them, blasted in stereo. Advertisers use the whole box of tricks to make their ads go above and beyond everything else.
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Sci-Fi Channel got /.'ed [grin] (Score:2)
Re:"Cheesy background effects" (Score:2)
You realize the Fremen generally only go out at night (to conserve water and avoid being spotted), so the black stillsuit provides you a little extra warmth (from reflected energy off of moons and the like), and makes you harder to see (although with the lack of shadows on Arrakis, this is dubious). Also, Dune doesn't appear to be all that hot of planet, since nobody ever seems to break a sweat when out in the sun, not even those sweaty Harkonnens.
Comments on first 2 hours (Score:2)
I have to admit that I haven't read the book since before the '84 Lynch movie. I thought that the movie was awful. The atmosphere was all wrong, the internal dialogues were stupid and confusing, the story was too big for the time alotted.
OTOH, the mini-series (or at least the first 2 hours) was excellent. Paul was as Paul should have been. When the Bene Gesserit woman spoke to Paul, the voice effect was what was needed. All the things that I remembered imagining 20 years ago were *just* as I had remembered them.
I think too many people here were over influenced by the Lynch piece of crap. They wanted a rmake of that, not a filming of the book.
Re:Musings on a Messiah (Score:2)
I had similar problems. That pronounciation reminded me of Yiddish, which is kinda neat, but not really appropriate to the series. I always assumed it was pronounced "fay-dah-KEEN". Also: pronouncing Chani as "CHAY-nee" made me think of Dick, which is not really what I was going for. I preferred "CHAH-nee," as per the Lynch produciton.
The Jessica of Herbert's books was, to put it mildly, a stone cold killah. After Paul's fight with Jamis, she calculates exactly what she needs to say to make sure Paul doesn't grow to develop a taste for blood, and says it, even though it hurts him. That line got cut from the SciFi production, which is a shame, because combined with everything else it made Jessica out to be just a protective mother figure, rather than a force to be reckoned with in her own right.
By the way - while the new Feyd played the part admirably, I have to say that I missed Sting. Not because he's a good actor, but because he was immediately believeable as a psychotic, spoiled, royal man-child.
Re:Musings on word pronunciations (Score:2)
No. Herbert included a pronunciation guide just so there wouldn't be any confusion. I haven't seen the series (don't have cable) so I can't comment on the pronunciation in it, but I have read the books, and I don't really think pronunciation should be that big a deal. After all, as long as you can tell one word apart from another, all's well, right?
CNN has a good article on the series... (Score:4)
In the business section of all things, CNN has a good article on the making of Dune.
You will find a number of insights into their decisions, plus a good rundown from Alec Newman's point of view.
You can find it here [cnn.com]
Re:The was no Dune Mini-Series (Score:3)
I could care less about the matte paintings or CGI. I could care less about the costumes, sets, and silly hats. You probably spent too much time making fun of and paying attention to those things to actually grasp what was going on.
What Dune, and I'm convinced, all great literature, especially sci-fi is about, is people. The miniseries brought this to the fore far more than the Lynch movie. The evolution of Paul, the love affair with Chani, the conflict with his mother, the political intrigue, the religious mania, the ecological message, it was all there. In short, the things that really mattered to me.
I know people who loved it, people who hated it, and people who could care less. Dune fans on all sides.
Re:May your blade chip and shatter (Score:2)
As far as the special effects go... well, there were somethings which were better in the movie, but I wouldn't attribute this at all to David Lynch. That's the special effects department (and what I know of David Lynch suggests he had little involvement with that), and it's proof positive that low-budget digital effects (as are required for TV mini-series) are not always a replacement for traditional high-budget special effects that are done in movies. Having a bigger budget (remember to adjust for 16 years of inflation
As for Kyle MacLachlan's work in the movie... I don't know. I thought Kyle just plain didn't GET the role. It could be he was limited by the script. Either way, I think this was not one of his better performances, and I think it is arguable that the guy in the mini-series did a better job.
Re:Worst FX (Score:5)
FREMEN: What name do you want? Your real name isn't good enough.
PAUL: What do you call that little creature?
FREMEN: Pikachu ?!?
The was no Dune Mini-Series (Score:3)
I am a big Dune fan, and have read all the Dune books, so before anyone lays in on me to try and defend the mini-series, understand this: I know it could not be perfect, I did not expect perfection or even an absolute adherence to the book. I'm simply not that kind of fan. I really enjoyed the Directors cut of the original Dune movie (didn't think the theatrical release told the story well enough).
So, with that in mind, what I expected was a good telling of a great story, at the very least. Afterall, they had plenty of time to build the story up. Instead, I got a bad telling, by poorly cast actors, directed by someone who barely seemed to understand how to tell a story in an even midly interesting way. Frankly, unless you've read the book, I don't see how the mini-series could be even remotely interesting. Its almost as if the director worked long and hard to suck the life out of every scene in the series.
To say I was seriously disappointed with the series is an understatement. If I did not know what Dune was I would have changed the channel. And before anyone starts trying to defend it, I was not expecting perfection. I was expecting something dramatic - in the artistic sense. This adaption of Dune was almost lifeless!
I mean the final battle scene was so anti-climatic I half jokingly asked, "what just happened"? And the final climax with Paul killing Faed was also a yawner. Talk about sucking the life out of a fantastic story with poor casting, a lack of creative cinematography to capture the grandure of the Dune universe (although the space scenes were fairly impressive), weak CGI effects that caused my friends and I to heckle the scenes with an MST3Kish "fakey!" (you know, there is such a thing as filming someone besides a sound stage), lame costumes that looked totally out of place and so on.
I could go on and on, but at least the Directors cut of the original Dune movie, while imperfect and incomplete, was far truer to the heart and soul of the Dune story than this miniseries was. It had something the mini-series totally lacked: suspense. I'm not sure how the director of the mini-series pulled it off, but he managed to turn every suspensful or climactic part of the story into a boring overacted use of bad actors in totally inappropriate costumes (come on, what was with all the Japanese costumes!).
Frankly, as bad things go, the Mini-series ranks up there in the top ten. If MST were still being made, I could look forward to it being heckled and given a proper burial. Perhaps the SouthPark guys will give this stinker the ribbing it richly deserves.
Python
To do it right... (Score:2)
First up, money. Lots of money. I know that SciFi was on a budget, but you need to shoot as much as you can "on location". Much of the movie and the mini were shot on sets with backdrops and matte paintings and folks, it shows. Either you spend the money to take the entire production crew to someplace with a lot of water and plant life for Caladan or you pay computer whizzes to create a moving, three-dimensional world in the background. You have no choice but to go on location for Arrakis; there are just too many scenes that take place in the desert to do on a stage or in front of a greenscreen. You also need Giedi Prime, Kaitain, good space shots, and so on.
You also need time. Lots of time. There's very little in the book which can be left out and still end up with a coherent story. What people do is no more important than why they do it. You have to take the time to explain the events of humanity's past that led to the Empire in 10,191 and its blend of CHOAM, the Great Houses, the Imperium itself, the Bene Gesserit, the Bene Tleilax, the Mentats, the Suk doctors, the Spacing Guild, and so forth. It's all an elaborate, intricate world and even the small parts contribute to the whole.
You need computer whizzes. Think of the dinosaurs of "Jurassic Park" and consider that a sandworm can really only be done in that way. Models, even fancy controlled-by-ten-puppeteers models, don't look alive. Think of the Guild Navigators in both the movie and the mini -- that's what a puppet gets you. Now think again of the T. Rex chasing the Jeep in "Jurassic Park" -- that's what computers get you.
You have to be able to show it without commercial interruption. You take for granted that people will "set it aside" for meal and bathroom breaks, just like they do with the book, but the magic of "Dune" is the mood, the spell it casts over those who are willing to sink into a world where giant worms reign over the deserts where a mind-altering spice is gathered by randomly-stepping warriors in search of a Messiah to lead them to...whatever. You don't capture that mood by breaking to sell high-availability servers or home fitness machines.
Finally, you have to love "Dune." Not just as a rich source of a Messianic story that will let you play with some FX people, but as Frank Herbert saw it: the world central to the universe at a time when humanity itself stood poised either to sink back into its animal origins or make a Great Leap Forward and become something so different that only a special few could even comprehend what might be. You have to be willing to discount the fact that people will say "Lynch did this better" or "Harrison did that better" and just find out how to get on screen what Herbert put on paper.
Where's our eccentric billionaire and "Dune"-lover to fund such a thing?
Both movie AND series ignored my favorite scene... (Score:2)
This scene was by far my favorite in the entire book and served to identify Paul's magnified perception... even above Jessica's. It also was instrumental in hilighting the "plans within plans within plans" the book emphasized and the series (more so than the movie, even) failed to convey.
This was one area I think the movie was superior to the series, in that it showed more of the political schemings (the voice-overs worked, IMO) while the series ignored so much of it.
But anyways, I read the dinner scene over numerous times I enjoyed it so much... the series got my hopes up with the intro dinner scene but dashed them to pieces with Paul and the princess' botched scene.
Ah well.
I can't see dune! (Score:3)
Re:"Cheesy background effects" (Score:2)
Jeez, do I sound enough like a Dune geek now? :-)
John
The Sci-Fi channel isn't (Score:3)
What is it with geeks and Dune? (Score:4)
Re:The Ending annoyed me. (Score:2)
All these things were dealt with in the book, and admittedly could have be clarified better in the movie.
On some other points: in the book as I recall the Fremen were able to use the worms for a more significant tactical advantage. However, the worms could not actually invade the place grounds, as they were built on rock. The emporer's men were indeed shooting at the incomming Fremen, but their weapons DO have limited range (because projectiles have to be slow enough to enter a shield). Additionally, the worms provide pretty good protection against ranged attacks. Even if air strikes WERE available to the defending troops, it's VERY hard to call an air strike on a quickly advancing set of troops.
I agree all of this could have been made more clear in the series, but it's tough to fit in all kinds of military strategizing into a fast action sequence on TV. If you want a clearer picture, read the book.
The Ending annoyed me. (Score:3)
Lynch looks more brilliant now than ever (Score:2)
While the depcitions of the Corrino household were ludicrous, the depictions of Geidi Prime were far cheaper looking than what Lynch put together.
The acting in this series was horrible, hopefully if they do further films, they'll get more competent talent, or at least in William Hurt's case, at least keep them interested enough to stay off of sedatives.
Re:Lynch looks more brilliant now than ever (Score:2)
Do you usually give replacement siblings version numbers?
Re:Power Word Kill -- HELLO!!! (Score:2)
Similarly, when the bomb blew up the section of mountains, I had no idea where it came from and could only assume that it had something to do with the changed water of life and the pre-spice mass. I was confused about that until the end...
- StaticLimit
I knew storm. You sir, are no storm. (Score:2)
That was not a storm. One puny wave of sand, then it was over. Look up, and it was still sunny. It was supposed to be a monstrous level-5-hurricane of a storm.
since you saw that bit you must have watched it almost to the end.For the record, the attack started right before the 10pm commercials, and it's when I turned off the TV.
use of captured 'thoptors to maintain air superiority is not unreasonable,Except that the freaking storm was supposed to take care of that. Can't fly if the skies are full of sand and lightning. They replaced a smart element from the book with bad CGI airships. Why?
Advertisers noticed. (Score:2)
My wife didn't like it that much, because she hadn't read Dune. I think there could have been more background for those unfamiliar with what was going on. Overall I thought it rocked, with only minor annoyance at some of the cheesy background effects (some looked REALLY fake)
Costs... (Score:3)
was approx 20M. I timed the commericals and the
program segments (9min show + 4min commercial) and
it seems that there where only approx 4.15 hours
of show. If the commercials cost 10K per second I
think it was a very good return on investment.
Does anybody know with more accuracy the return
numbers?
Re:The Ending annoyed me. (Score:2)
I agree with you that the Sardukar seemed to be lacking any tactics whatsoever. "Look a guy with a kinfe is running towards me (with a gun), maybe I'll try running right up to him instead of firing!"
Also, by the end, the Fremen started to use some Sardukar weapons left on the ground. My question is, why didn't they have any weapons from the 100s of patrols they ambushed? Or even from the spice miners (who CERTAINLY wouldn't be unarmed with all of the bandits/fremen/thieves running around trying to get their hands on the incredibly valuble spice they're mining).
Re:The was no Dune Mini-Series (Score:3)
I agree that the movie came out pretty lifeless. On the other hand, the Lynch movie added some things that were not in the book solely for shock value. Those are the things that annoy me most about Lynch's movie. Also, there is no "Director's Cut" besides the short version of the movie. The long version was made for TV, but not by Lynch, and is directed by a pseudonymous "Smithee" (meaning the director didn't want his name on it) not Lynch. I appreciated the miniseries' adherence to the consistency of the book, where it failed was when it diverged from the book, or just failed to convey the true scale of things. I haven't seen the long version of Dune, and I'm sure it is better than the short version, but it's not the "Director's cut."
Re:loud ads (Score:2)
Re:It was TERRIBLE. (Score:2)
http://www.fremen.org/museum/docs/cinefan.html
have you ever been a neilson family? (Score:2)
they don't do it with a box hooked to your set anymore. for a month, i was asked to record what shows i watched (including channel flipping, if i watched any particular channel for more than 5 minutes). being uberbusy with classes and keeping an odd schedule, my responses were, at best, anomolous.
let's see. MASH reruns on cable from midnight to 1am. the news for 7 minutes the next morning. Cartoons all day saturday followed my godzilla movies that night. hmm.. how should i record scrambled playboy channel?
Re:Am I the only one... (Score:2)
"'Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man's mind,'" quoted Paul.
"Right out of the Butlerian Jihad and the Orange Catholic Bible," she said. "But what the O.C. Bible should've said is: 'Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a
Re:I knew storm. You sir, are no storm. (Score:2)
Ah.. thank you for explaining it. The only thing I can think of is that they couldn't think of how to properly film the city (and an attack on it) while it is under a severe sand storm, or else perhaps the scene would have taken too long to render using CGI, or would have blown the budget too much(just guessing though).
Re:May your blade chip and shatter (Score:2)
In the TV miniseries they killed Leto the child, So where is the God emperor supposed to come from? I'm not sure if this happened in the book, it's been a while. Leto II was "II" because of Paul's father Leto.
In anycase there were substantial variations from the plot in the book. The Lynch film got a lot of scenes closer to the book than the miniseries but totally screwed up the big picture for example the travasty of rain at the end. But the miniseries was sailing close to the wind and almost lost the plot.
Re:May your blade chip and shatter (Score:2)
Got better as it went along (Score:5)
-Feyd was perfect. Foppish, cunning, and deadly all in the same breath. Bravo.
-Paul is a Bad Ass in the second and third installments. In the first episode he was a whiny Luke Sywalker character, but he is one of th main reasons the series got better as it went along.
-Chani (sp, it's been too long) is also a Bad Ass, and she is HOT. My kind of woman.
On another note:
-The Fremen "army" looks more like the rabble from the Life Of Brion than any kind of army. They are supposed to be deadly warriors, not kids with knives.
-The Sardaukar berets just serve to make them silly. It's an interesting style, but they have to look as potent and menacing as possible.
Overall, a great series. I can't wait until the next one comes out.
Re:The Ending annoyed me. (Score:2)
the poison blade in Feyd's costume was a little crackerjack trinket and rather by overcoming him with superior skills, Paul distracts him by blurting out stuff that noone is supposed to suspect until late in the 2nd book!
Am I the only one... (Score:2)
I just started the first chapter of the original book. I am still looking for a reasonable explanation instead of some weird supernatural power Paul(muad'ib) holds that make his men 10 times stronger and invicible.
Now down to acting:
Like some other posts have pointed out before me, Paul was a naturalborn leader. But instead in the mini-series, he looks like a crazy religious psycho to me. I can stand all other characters, but paul, man, I would go straight up and beat the crap out of the guy if i see him in real life. He is *That* annoying.
Re:The Ending annoyed me. (Score:2)
Re:Lies, lies, lies... (Score:2)
Lies, lies, lies... (Score:2)
Dune is too complicated and epic a story to give to a television budget and system of Producers. I personally feel that a director such as David Fincher would be best cut out to create an interesting, accurate version of Dune, or perhaps Dune: Messiah.
Re:Am I the only one... (sci-fi allusions abound) (Score:2)
the fremen are similar - born and raised in a harsh environment, taught to fight young, made tough by attrition.
it's the Kal-El syndrome: Krypton has higher gravity, thus, on earth, he is a Superman. Dune has a harsh environment, both physically and socially, thus those that survive are better suited to kicking ass.
what makes them tougher is that (a: they are on their home turf (b: they're not pampered (c: one word: Jihad.
Re:Am I the only one... (Score:2)
Yeah, that's an assumption needed to make the whole thing work. In a society with spaceships and antigrav, though, it has a Flash Gordon silliness to it. Even in the sword-and-shield era, organization carried the day. "The Legion is not composed of heroes. Heroes are what the Legion kills." In the post-Desert Storm era, the Dune model of war in the desert looks even more contrived.
Does this matter? Let's Look to the future. (Score:2)
(Note: I think Dune rocks, especially since it is sci-fi that doesn't have much computer technology. Almost zero! That is damn hard to pull off when you really start to think about it. Thinking of alternate technologies is a tough business... Rock on Dune!)
- John
John S. Rhodes
WebWord.com [webword.com] -- Industrial Strength Usability
C'mon, you guys are forgetting the biggest mistake (Score:2)
Good Effort/Interesting (Re)placement of Chracters (Score:3)
Although I did not like the way Fenring character was placed as the Emperor's side kick and not as the deadly eunuch that he was, Irulan made sence as a political tool of her father. She included the sexual draw of the Lady Fenring in the book, but also was the political chreature that the Count was.
All in all, a very enjoyable adaptation of a great novel. I enjoyed the whole of the mini-series, but might be using liberal fast-forward durning the first two hours.
Re:Casting was TERRIBLE!! (Score:2)
I emphatically agree about the portrayal of the Baron. This series compounded an error David Lynch made in his version of Dune: The Baron was a bad caricature, a villain out of a Jack Chick pamphlet. I expected him to shout "Haw haw!" as Leto's ghost rose from his body, that's how Jack Chick the Baron was.
In the book, the Baron is not stupid, oafish or even particularly loud. His menace is much quieter. That's a more impressive bad guy, IMO, than the series chose to show us.
--
heart plugs (Score:2)
rain was ok, excessive but it made the point (this IS the ending... ain't it climatic?)
wierding modules were pretty cheezy... but kind of cool...
Re:Dune Technology (Score:2)
And why would they? I mean, do you go around every day saying out loud: "It is a good thing that we worship technology and use it - all hail the stealer of privacy, and let none forsake the god of technology for their petty self interests!"
No, it's just how you live. If you were to expound on it, it would have to be a voiceover of an historian, since it is not something you're that conscious of.
Shields - we had the training lessons in both adaptations, although I noticed a much lesser use of shields in combat during the SciFi adaptation.
Chani is one sexy babe!
Yeah, how come no bio or screen credits on intro for her? She had major screen time, and more than upheld her role. I think it's a "just a local actress" phenomenon, where they dis her just because she's not a Yank or a Brit.
Note that in the SciFi adaptation that Chani starts of not being appealing and becomes moreso as the series progresses - also the fact that Paul found the local working girls attractive during the banner-hanging scene so that we knew it wasn't his first infatuation. I found her role quite well done, even if it was a larger one in the Dune movie.
That said, I want to see the European cut - more Chani!
Re:Lynch looks more brilliant now than ever (Score:2)
Remember who becomes the God Emperor? They kill him off in the mini-series or at least severely protract the timeline surrounding his "death".
The casting and directing was horrible. While the Harkonans were a bit clownish, their style was a good alternate interpretation from the industrial/gothic bunch Lynch put together.
May your blade chip and shatter (Score:5)
Please allow me to add my thoughts to this most worthy subject. I'd like to start by pointing out that (and its so obvious I shouldn't have to write it but...) the different mediums everyone is comparing against is quite different and should be treated differently. A book is much different than a movie. A movie is much different than a miniseries for different reasons. (Where else can we see so many dang Sun commercials for starters!) In this respect one can only pay homage and/or differentiate where the need arises. Having said that I'd like to say to all the naysayers (And there are so many of you), learn what you are looking at and try not to impose your net of thought onto it. The first step in understanding is knowing that you do not know. My greatest joy in watching this series so far is not knowing what exactly to expect next. Lines which are changed from both the book and movie ("Tell me of the waters of your home world, Muad'Dib") to be more poingnant and lean are both necessary and elegent. Scenes which are changed for the medium such as the hunter-seeker scene, which was probably the most to-the-book scene from David Lynch's Dune, was changed to get rid of those blasted voice-over-thoughts. ( Side note: The voice overs was the NUMBER ONE COMPLAINT from the series so leaving it behind was more than necessary). Other scenes were added compared to the movie and then changed from the book to get the point across (Dinner scene for example). Yet others where so to the book, it was beautiful (Jamis' fight and funeral). And still, yet other scenes where omitted due to their lack of addition to the plot point due to such a short amount of time. Witness that the first movie drastically cut down the scenes where Thufir is being manipulated by the Baron Harkonen and that the mini-series doesn't include it whatsoever as if they did it on cue. With all these points in mind, all in all what we are witnessing is probably most of what we can expect from a visual adaptation of dune.
The watermark by which you can identify a visual book interpreatation is how much you have invested yourself into what you are seeing and how much you can understand. If it gets the point across and you're on the edge of your seat, even if you haven't read the book, then they've succeeded. So now the question is, what is the main point of the book? And since the Sci-Fi Channel is going to the next two books, what is the main point of the series?
Well there are two points really. First theres the bigee...The Fallacy of the Messiah... The archetype of so many stories of our religions/myths and of course the cause of so many deaths of our people in his name. Paul doesn't want this but has no choice and the universe pays the price. The Bene Gesserit prepares DUNE with this classic myth and everyone falls hook line and sinker, including Paul.
Secondly, on the science fiction aspect, the whole book series can't get off the fact that a Kwisatz Haderach can "see" into the future. Later on, everyone is so scared that another KH will come along and lock them into a present where nothing is new. In other words, seeing into the future makes the present into the past and locks them forever out of the unknowable present such as the one we enjoy today where anything can and does happen. His son, Leto II, was the only one who could bring them out of what Paul Muad'Dib did to them. And if the Sci-Fi Channel is going to do the next two books, they MUST at least do God Emperor Dune which in my opinion is the most interesting and rewarding of all the books. The last two books which deal with the BG almost exclusively, I'll admit, would also be a good adaptation since they're getting hunted and lots of action can ensue.
Having said all that, I have only one gripe... an inconsistent use of the pre/post commercial "DUNE" screen. Some people are trying to tape these as best they can you know!
Duke Leto
Re:loud & horrid ads (Score:2)
I'm normally a nitpicker, one of those awful people to watch TV/movies with, as I have ready criticism for any and everything wrong or awkward. In contrast to most of my friends, I go in assuming that the show/movie will insult my intelligence and be awful. I expected the same of this series, especially after absolutely loathing the David Lynch version, and having felt for some time now that Dune was really unfilmable. This version of Dune succeeded in creating such an ambience of Arrakis that my complaints seemed small by comparison. There were definitely glaring differences between the SciFi version and the actual text, but I think they captured the feel of the work.
This is good news for the SciFi channel, however, because they will have something with which to draw better advertising and won't have to rely on small channel mainstays like exercise machines and "revolutionary" bedding. Sequels may have better adverts.
Re:Canada? (Score:2)
Larry Niven (Score:2)
I want to see a Ringworld mini-series!
Screw this literature type crap, I want to see Puppeteers, flashlight lasers, and general products hulls!
TANJ!
cliffs notes (Score:2)
I mean, do we really need to see what the "place-that-we-cannot-look" looks like? Although there are many problems with the Lynch retelling, I think he managed to capture the tone, feeling, and drama of the book very well.
thought it was crap (Score:3)
As for the plot itself, it was closer to the book in a lot of areas than was the original movie, but there were two things that REALLY bugged me about it. First of all, the changes they made to the plot did NOTHING to contribute to the feeling one was supposed to get from the book. For instance, Leto was supposed to be the benevolent one, the ruler who would change things, which was one of the reasons for him stopping the dinner ritual in which the splashings would be given to the poor outside the mansion (or whatever you called their house... a palace, maybe?). In the movie, Jessica does this, but it doesn't do anything to help her character development. In the book, Jessica's loyalty is to her family--not the bene gesserit, not the Fremen, but her family. Most of her actions in the movie are consistent with that. but the drippings ritual bit does nothing to further that view; in fact, it conflicts with it. Another example is the elimination of Paul's clan name, Usul. There were a lot of these little instances that bugged the hell out of me.
The second thing was that the directors had an annoying habit of introducing some plot element--the explosive nature of a pre-spice mass, for instance--with an offhand comment that wasn't explained for half an hour or more. When Liet/Kynes died in the movie, all he said was "a pre-spice mass", like we're supposed to know what that means. (of course we all did, but that's beside the point--we read the book.) You can tell its explosive from the ensuing explosion, but theres no explanation of why its explosive, or even what a pre-spice mass is. A better example might be paul's order to put the water of life over a pre-spice mass--we're left wondering what the hell is going on. A good writer (Frank Herbert, for instance) would have explained it at the time or at some point beforehand.
enough. I won't watch it again. I'm certainly not looking forward to them butchering Children Of Dune.
Re:Canada? (Score:2)
Re:What is it with geeks and Dune? (Score:2)
The ideas like the revolution against high technology and things like shields forcing armies back to hand to hand combat were interesting and made for some great feudal swashbuckling in a fairly consistent framework. It's a great if improbable alternate universe.
Finally when you read any of the Dune books you get to see the grand plots coming together from every angle, this is quite comon in books but none seem to weave the tapestry as well as Dune did. You see all the protagonists laying their plans which ultimately come to clash and resolve to a final outcome at the end of the story.
"Cheesy background effects" (Score:2)
I don't remember the ships being described by Mr. Herbert in the books, and can only wonder at the remarkable resemblence between the SciFi version ships and the David Lynch version ships.
I found just too many striking similarities between the two versions to make this version stand out. I was grateful for the lack of voice-over thoughts (a la Lynch), but was disappointed that many of those thoughts weren't then exposed through dialog or action.
Oh, well, all bitching aside, it was good enough to keep me up way too late finishing the series last night. :-)
John
Re:Lynch looks more brilliant now than ever (Score:3)
So RTFB....
WTF, "I am Sci-Fi"? (Score:2)
Re:Got better as it went along (Score:2)
I agree, more care needed to be taken to introduce the shields properly. The properties of the shields were the whole thing that allowed such a pleasing combination between sword-fighting and interstellar travel. Why else would Paul be trained better than a black belt in knife fighting? Perhaps, though, the director thought it would be too difficult to examine the whole dynamic between the las-guns (sp?), the shields, the worms, and hand fighting. I think perhaps it could have been plausible if just the hand fighting part was used (meaning why didn't they just use machine guns; of course that would lead to the question of why didn't they just use lasers... but here we go again).
Re:rerun? (Score:2)
Re:loud ads (Score:2)
A friend of mine (for/with whom I have worked in the past) was a radio station technician (or jockey--can't remember, it's an old story he told me a few years ago). One day, I was talking about the annoyance of radio commercials being louder.
What he explained to me was something I can't repeat word-for-word because it's been too long (I'm getting old fast), but boiled down to the amplitude of the signal being altered to mark separations of content and commercials and jockey interventions.
Of course, they can play with that to their advantage while selling TV or radio spots, but the signal was definitely not louder, I'm sure. If you had used a decibel meter, you would have realized that.
Karma karma karma karma karmeleon: it comes and goes, it comes and goes.
Re:What is it with geeks and Dune? (Score:2)
What would you rather be:
-Ixian
-Tleilax
-Guilder
-Bene Gesserit (with the option of being Kwisatz Haderach if you're male
-Sardaukar
-Cowboy Neal
Re:What is it with geeks and Dune? (Score:4)
Herbert does describe a great deal of very advanced technology, he just does it in an understated way. Consider the Guild Highliners, poison snoopers, hunter-seekers, shields, las-guns, cones of silence, and gholas. It all speaks to a high sophistication, but it's all (well, mostly) subtle technology. This is why Dune resonates so strongly with me--Herbert doesn't try to dazzle us with a "gee-whiz" techno-thriller; instead, he creates a world that is more interested in human concerns. Consider shields. Here is a technology so advanced that the only recourse mankind had was to "revert" back to knife fighting. Which makes combat more brutal, but also more personal, more "human." And, to my mind, more interesting. But the technology is integral to the believability of this particular example.
So I think this is why Dune has such an appeal to geeks. It does employ technology, but in subtle, thoughtful ways, rather than beating the audience over the head. This is in addition, of course, to the stunning variety of ideas Herbert packs into the book. Anthropology, sociology, genetics, ecology, mysticism, religion: these are all meaty (read: geeky) topics, and Herbert weaves them together beautifully. My $.02.
Re:B5. (Score:2)
Yes. The Nashville Network. Over the next five years they will rebrand themselves into The Nation's Network. Sci Fi tried to get the Star Trek series, but TNN outbid them.
Re:WTF, "I am Sci-Fi"? (Score:2)
Gurney the only dissapointment (Score:2)
Good miniseries and a great use of SciFi dollars. It does not make up for their making Lexx instead of picking up Crusade, but it's a damn good start.
Re:I can't see dune! (Score:4)
Loud... but they knew their audience. (Score:2)
By and large it's seemed that cable stations will throw any ad at any time during any show. But during Dune you saw primarilly ads for Sun Microsystems (hmmm... how'd they guess geeks would be watching?
*sigh* if only they'd had a few of the ones for Victoria's Secret.... Then I wouldn't have been leaving the room after hitting the "pause" button on the VCR, ya can be DAMN sure.
Worst FX (Score:2)
Shown once with Paul & Jessica during their escape, and once with Alia. That thing looked incredibly fake. How hard would it have been to get a real trained rat?
Upcoming Ringworld movie (Score:2)
About the movie [space.com]
I don't know about a miniseries, but a movie is supposedly planned. According to a story last month in the Hollywood Reporter (as interpreted by Space.com [space.com]), "Phil Tippett, Oscar-winning visual effects mastermind behind Star Wars, Starship Troopers and other FX-driven spectacles, will make his directorial debut with the project".
I'm not sure that I'd hold my breath, but it does sound intriguing.
Re:wow (Score:2)
Dune Technology (Score:4)
There are two technological paradigms that aren't explained adequately in the mini-series or the David Lynch movie, and the lack of adequate explanation may puzzle those who haven't read the book:
In the Dune mythos, "thinking machines", i.e. robots and computers, are either banned or regarded as an abomination. Neither screen adaptation mentioned this, as far as I can remember.
In the Dune mythos, much fighting is done with knives and low-tech weaponry due to... shields! The shields stop any object that is going beyond a certain speed. Lasers and shields didn't mix in the mythos, either. These shields are seen in both screen versions, but their functionality is never explained.
Overall, I like the mini-series, though. Chani is one sexy babe!