More On 'Ender' Film From Orson Scott Card 154
Ender's Game Movie
The movie is, as OSC said, the same place it was five years ago: Looking for money. Well, maybe not exactly the same place -- they're still working and re-working the script. In short, OSC said that Ender's Game is a scary movie -- not for filmgoers, but for filmmakers. Because its stars are all children, and young children at that, it's a real challenge for anyone to make well enough to be financially successful, and that scares the heck out of the studios. So, OSC's challenge is to come up with a script that keeps the emotion and "truth" of the story intact, while also reducing the fear that studio execs feel while considering how to make a movie out of it.
Despite what you might think, OSC said Ender's Game is tough to make into a movie -- as most of the important stuff happens inside Ender's head. Hard to go there in a film. Card's brought in Richard LaGravense, who wrote The Fisher King, to help with some of the problems, and one of the first things he suggested was that Card should combine Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow. The idea there would be to help remove the need to have Peter and Valentine in the movie, eliminating some complications, and to help add some story elements surrounding the "bonds of brotherhood" between Ender and Bean, and also some more of the rivalry between them. Card loved the idea, and he's working with that in mind now. He also wanted us to remember that "I have absolute power over the film. Why? Because I've taken no money." So, any major change that you don't like, he said, is probably his idea. He's very aware of how important keeping the film as close as possible to the published stories is to his fans, but he's also very much more aware of how difficult it is to get a film made, and how much more difficult it is to make a great film. So he's willing to make some sacrifices in order to get the story told, and told well. But he's not going to hurt the story itself -- some changes will happen (for example, he's considering revealing halfway through the film that Gaff is really Mazar Rackham), but they won't hurt the story as a whole. And, since he's still in control, they'll be done "right."
Anyway, he's still looking for money, still looking for a director, still looking for an actor. The right actor for Ender is probably about 6 years old right now, so it won't be anyone we know -- not Jake Lloyd, not Haley Joel Osmond. Both would have been great if they could have made the film 3 or 4 years ago, but now they're both too old.
Other Film Projects
When I last saw OSC (for the Ender's Shadow book tour), he spoke of some other film projects. I asked him yesterday what was up with those. A TV pilot, Bordertown, that he'd been getting filmed in Mexico, just didn't work. Apparently, the crews they had simply weren't that good, and they didn't get enough usable film to make any good cut of the pilot. He hopes to go back to Mexico with a U.S. crew, rather than Mexican, and try again. He hopes to start this fall on Homebody, an adaptation of his 1998 novel. He's hoping to work soon on a script for Enchantment, which he described as his "favorite novel." The animated mini-series adaptation of Treason is still waiting for a good script, which Card hasn't been able to get to yet. And, finally, his "most anthologized short story," a cyberpunk attempt called "Dogwalker," is in the scripting stage, and he hopes to shoot that in New Orleans.
The Shadow Series
Originally, Card had hoped to have three books in the "Shadow" series (for which he still doesn't have a good overall name to reference it by). But somewhere while writing Shadow of the Hegemon, he realized that he needed to write another (like that's ever happened to a Card series before!) So, there will be an additional two novels in the series. In the afterward of SoH, Card talks about possible titles for the next one, centering on the 23rd Psalm ("The valley of the shadow of death") But his publisher told him that books with "death" in the title sell half what their predecessor sold, so he's changing the title. Currently, his favorite title is Shadow Puppets. After that will come Shadow of the Giant, referring primarily to Bean, but he's considering whether to connect, in some way, to the Giant's Drink from Ender's videogame in Battle School. He was also asked why he changed from "Buggers" to "Formics," and Card had a two-word answer: "Starship Troopers." Actually, it was far longer than two words, but centered around wanting to make sure that nobody who saw a preview for Ender's Game thought of Starship Troopers. And, in retrospect, he says he likes "Formics" much better, anyway.
Also, the copy of SoH currently on the market is, in Card's words, "defective." They printed the wrong draft. Someone pointed out that Ender didn't actually grow up in Greensboro, but that his parents moved there after Ender went to battle school. So an entire scene got rewritten. There'll be a second edition coming out soon, but until then, you can get the "patches" from OSCs web site.Other Forthcoming Books
He still has to write Crystal City, the next (#6) book in the Alvin Maker series. He said that from the beginning, Alvin Maker was meant to be an allegorical retelling of the story of Joseph Smith, but partway through he realized, "I?m adding magic to America. American history couldn't possibly come out the same." So, it became a sort of alternate history series as well, and grew from the original envisioned 3-volume set into a 7-volume series.
Rasputin (the next book in the Mayflower series, where a sentient cat is sent to kill Lovelock) is still exactly where it was two years ago -- stuck on Chapter 7. Card and Kathy Kidd are alternating chapters, like on the last book, and guess who's assigned #7? Actually, he said that there's "something just not right" about the book, and he hasn't been able to figure that one out yet.
He still has two Pastwatch books he wants to write -- the Flood (of Noah), and Eden (about Adam and Eve), and two books in the Women of Genesis series -- Rebecca, and Rachel and Leah.
Finally, Card is working on a project called Slow Leak, about magic "erupting" in Baldwin Hills. He's been hounded by a friend about not having a credible black hero in any of his stories, and Card's stumbling block has been that he's been deathly afraid of venturing into depicting a culture of which he knows nothing. So this will be an attempt at such a novel, and, just as Enchantment was vetted by experts in Russian folk literature, he'll have all kinds of help making sure that this story is true to the community he's trying to depict.
Other Information
As always, the talk before the signing was interesting and informative. It was amazing to see how many people were there (the cafe was packed, standing room only), and great to see so many young people there, as well. There's a lot more to be seen on Card's Web site, and I urge anyone interested in further information to check it out. You might also want to check out a transcript of an online chat with Barnes and Noble.
I'm not sure what OSC's plans are for the future, with no further big tours on the horizon, but hopefully he'll stay in touch through the web site. Maybe we can get him for a /. interview sometime ...
Note: That interview sounds like a good idea, we'll see what we can do :)
Re:Age induced orthodoxy... (Score:2)
I bet you like User Friendly too.
--Shoeboy
Error (Score:2)
Well, don't. Nobody says every good book will be a good movie.
With his books getting worse for years now, I wonder how he will trash his Masterpiece.
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:2)
I agree that early Niven is way better than late Niven, but that's not to say that early Niven is good. Just bearable. Ringworld had no plot, it was just a series of "wonders". Some of his short stories are good, though.
I agree that Teranesia is no "Permutation City" (one of the best books ever, IMHO) but I wouldn't call it trash. I think he should have made it a short story--the idea was good, but there was too much unrelated junk at the beginning and the actual sci-fi aspect wasn't really introduced until near the end. BTW, if you liked "Luminous" (that's the one about the aquatic culture, isn't it?) then you should run out right now and buy his short story collection "Axiomatic".
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MailOne [openone.com]
Re:A funny thing happened between Speaker... (Score:2)
"as when the Ender novels are rejected as neo-Hitlerian, male-oriented power-fantasies perpetrated by a misogynistic, myopic, militaristic anti-feminist (Radford);"
Wow, *slam*.
If you have this article, please scan it and post it. I doubt the magazine would care, being out of business and all.
And your friend would probably like it, reaching a wider audience.
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:1)
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, even if it's wrong. ;)
I loved Ender's Game, and I didn't read it until I was about 26-27. Mind you, I thought the next two books were just crap; I didn't even buy the 4th one.
Re:Hard to get footage of Ender's Head? (Score:1)
Re:Enders Game, the book (Score:2)
Card gets cut a lot of slack
Remember that Card wrote Ender's Game in bits and pieces during his spare time when he was a 19 year old missionary. Oh, and LDS missionaries have about three hours per week of spare time (well, he got a bit more when he worked in the mission offices).
He's a much, much better writer these days, and I've hear him talk at length about how he wishes that he could revisit EG now that he knows what he's doing. IIRC, he even started on a rewrite but came to the conclusion that he had changed too much and couldn't replicate the feel of the book, because much of the tone and feel was a direct result of his own youth and naivete.
The reason that you see a huge contrast between fans' opinions of the book and your own reading of it is that EG is best read as an adolescent. Adults who fell in love with it as teenagers still love it. Those who see it for the first time as adults are puzzled by the adulation.
I'd love to see a movie made of Ender's Game, but I'm glad Card is taking his time and being careful. I'd really hate to see another Starship Troopers (ST and EG were my two favorite books in Junior High and I was downright angry when I walked out of ST the movie -- don't screw with my memories!).
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:1)
Re:Why let Hollywood stop it? (Score:1)
In case anyone's still reading... (Score:2)
Elaine's problem with Ender wasn't just that he was parallelled with Hitler. There were two objections, both of which I pretty much agreed with though I wasn't P.O.ed enough to write an article about it as she did:
1. While Ender did parallel hitler, he was slyly distorted. Hitler also was a third child of a third child, also had a quasi-incestuous relationship with his sister, also dozens of other things, but Hitler was not a distracted little boy who thought he was playing a video game when he hit the "final solution" button. Hitler thought himself an instrument of destiny and, had he escaped to Brazil, rather than turning into a "speaker for the Jews" I am 100% sure he would have continued pursuing his destiny with more fervor than ever.
This distortion is necessary to make Ender/Hitler palatable to the victim who is beign persuaded to take a more tolerant view of him. There is also the contrast with the brother figure, "Ender without a conscience," who takes the place of a part of Hitler that was not Hitler's brother but a proudly held part of himself. In real life, Hitler's sibs did not share his "gifts," whatever those were. (The ham-handed acceptance of eugenic principles irked me personally, as Ender came out not long after Cyril Burt was discredited and it was shown that every twin study ever done had been faked.)
2. It is very unlikely that Card would have been rewarded with 2 consecutive Nebula and Hugo sweeps (nor anybody expecting a third) had it been known that the series was a big fat shaggy dog story about forgiving Hitler. Radford's theory -- and I'm inclined to agree with her -- is that he planned to pull the rug out from under everybody after sweeping the Nebulas third time running, announcing that the SF community had endorsed his philosophy while in fact his philosophy had been slyly concealed inside something that looked very different from what it was.
I personally also believe it is impossible (given the ignorance of his own work displayed in Card's rebuttal) that Card actually wrote either Ender's Game or Speaker. I suspect it was a committee effort of some group from his church. Whether Card is a writer or not his success in the awards can be attributed to his skill as a politician more than anything else. While it is certainly not illegal to use ghost writers this is hardly the ordinary case.
In the end there is no more damning comment on Card's motives than his own half-decade delay before skulking out with the third book of the series. If he'd been proud of the metaphor he was drawing he would not have called Radford on the phone long-distance and spent an hour trying to browbeat her into withdrawing the article. (I heard her half of that conversation, and she could have used a sampling machine preprogrammed with the phrase "I can only judge what I read, not you personally or your beliefs.")
Oh, and that guy with the "mythos" article that is online that footnotes her -- he dissed everyone that didn't support his pet theory of mythic whatchamacallit. I'm sure he skimmed Elaine's article without understanding what she was so bothered about.
Anyway. My $0.02 for this episode...
Re:Enders Game, the book (Score:1)
Did you notice any Mormon bias's in the book. (I personally didn't, but wondered if anyone else saw anything)
The reason that you see a huge contrast between fans' opinions of the book and your own reading of it is that EG is best read as an adolescent. Adults who fell in love with it as teenagers still love it. Those who see it for the first time as adults are puzzled by the adulation.
That's a good point (and very consistent with the discussion involved). I read it when I was 23. Maybe it's a book whose time I missed.
Re:Why I hate Orson Scott Card: (Score:1)
So I don't think I'm trying too hard. I didn't look 'till I found out how extreme his beliefs were. And if you reread the passages with this in mind, I'm certain that you'll come to the same conclusion that I did.
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Re:I love Card (Score:1)
A game of quidditch anyone? (Score:1)
Re:Age induced orthodoxy... (Score:1)
<disclaimer> I'm an ex-Mormon... </disclaimer>
Gasp!
I wasn't aware that he used to edit Sunstone. I did think it was odd, though, when I read _Songmaster_ and found that the title character was gay, and that Card didn't particularly moralize that point. Is that one of the ones he apologized for?
Small correction -- Anset's only sexual experience was homosexual, but he really didn't have a sexual aspect to his life, so it's hard to reasonably label him as a homosexual. And many Mormons have been uncomfortable with his inclusion of homosexual characters and actions in his stories -- enough so that he wrote an essay on the matter years back to clarify his position on the matter. It might be available somewhere on hatrack.com.
I didn't see a quote in which he was apologizing for any of his work, so I can't comment on whether this was one or not. I found it a very beautiful story, personally.
In general, I think the severe cognitive dissonance experienced by "liberal" Mormons tends to cause them to either become more conservative or drop out of the church. At least, that's been my experience. So it's not surprising that Card would shrink back into the official bounds of behavior for a good LDS man.
I don't think he's ever really been outside the official bounds of behavior for a good LDS man. Not that I'm aware of. He has been well outside the unofficial and cultural bounds of what a good Mormon should be doing on many occasions, and I don't see those stopping. And I think that's a good thing. Shaking people up is a good thing in that regard.
Re:Luminous (Score:1)
http://www.amazon.co.uk [amazon.co.uk] is where I got both of 'em.
--
Bush's assertion: there ought to be limits to freedom
Re:Age induced orthodoxy... (Score:2)
I wasn't aware that he used to edit Sunstone. I did think it was odd, though, when I read _Songmaster_ and found that the title character was gay, and that Card didn't particularly moralize that point. Is that one of the ones he apologized for?
In general, I think the severe cognitive dissonance experienced by "liberal" Mormons tends to cause them to either become more conservative or drop out of the church. At least, that's been my experience. So it's not surprising that Card would shrink back into the official bounds of behavior for a good LDS man.
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Ender's Game would have made a great movie... (Score:1)
I read Ender's Game a few months ago, and although like most readers, I could see the climactic moment of the novel a LONG time in advance, I still thought it was a very good novel, particularly for its time. The subplot with Peter and Valentine, which involved using pseudonyms on a word-wide computer network to gain real political influence, must have been extremely novel at the time.
However, today, with video games and computer networks prevelant throughout society, Ender's Game simply doesn't look so fresh anymore. If one went to see a movie based on it, and didn't know it was originally written in 1977, one would probably end up thinking it was an unsuccessful attempt by a Hollywood hack writer to combine Columbine, Playstation 2, and the WWW into a single plot...
Re:I love Card (Score:1)
Re:Ender's, or HGTTG? (Score:1)
I saw it when I was a kid before I ever read the books, and the actors in the series are how I'll always imagine the characters - it will be hard to beat. But I heard a rumour that Hugh Laurie was up for the Arthur Dent role - he would be a perfect dim-witted English twit.
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:1)
Let me add a second voice of dissent.
While I actually enjoyed Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead, the series lost it for me from Xenocide onwards (actually I only read as far as Children of the Mind)
Most of my discontent with Xenocide focussed around the method of faster than light travel. Up until that point Card had presented a somewhat fantastic but at least marginally believable scientific framework for his novels.
Then he lost it. What convinced him that his idea of a person's mental abberations causing strange things to happen as a side effect of faster than light travel was a good idea?
Imagine that Xenocide had been a movie (and that was your first exposure to the story). Which of you from the /. crowd could honestly tell me that if a young Peter and Valentine suddenly appeared on screen that you wouldn't have thought "What a lame way to add a bit of drama to the series."?
To top it all off he bases an entire book on this mental abberation of Ender's. There were other problems with Children of the Mind. The sequence where the ansibles are shut down and Jane has to migrate somewhere else is also quite weak. I wasn't convinced at all that she shouldn't have died.
A thing I have noticed about my self is that if the first book in a series is good one tends to become more forgiving as they progress in the series. I don't believe there is any justification for this.
To summarise, I enjoyed Card's novels when I was younger. Even then I believed they had problems. He has some skill as a writer, certainly more than I will ever have. However, I would not rate his books as classics.
Just Do Better Than "Dune" (Score:4)
I remember going to see the DUNE movie with my sister when it came out. As we left the movie theater she asked "what happened there? I have no idea." These inside-the-head books can make sense to a fan (or the author) had make absolutely no sense to the uninitiated.
Ender's Game probably does not have as big a problem as Dune did with length or the extent of the story being inside people's heads. (Rumors at the time were that the rough cut for Dune was 30 hours long and nicknamed "June.") I'm encouraged that so much time is being put into thinking through the problems, rather than a pile of money pushing a bad product out fast. No doubt, Ender's game should be a long, if worthwhile, project.
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:1)
Re:The only way to do this... (Score:1)
Jackie Chan was right when he said that with the passing of the Chinese opera schools, you won't see his like again. The hardships he and the other children endured, the unforgiving training, the harsh discipline -- combined with the force of their own will, and the grace of their bodies -- is what enabled them to do these fantastic things that stretch the limits of human possibility. Few children these days would have the patience and fortitude for such training, even if they had the opportunity to pursue it. Which they don't, because we've made it illegal for kids to do anything other than gobble Ritalin and twiddle their thumbs (hell, we hate it when grownups make money, when a child shows any initiative and tries to do something productive people scream like the kid's being raped in front of their eyes).
Re:Age induced orthodoxy... (Score:4)
In the days when he editted Sunstone, it was very different from what Sunstone became (which is why he left it). He still speaks with essentially the same voice he did then -- willing to explore the truths of his religion with honest eyes, and without losing his faith.
2 questions:
1. If Sunstone changed rather than Card, why does he refer to his "Sunstone phase"?
2. What exactly has Sunstone become? Since the excommunication of the September 6, it's been more conservative and mainstream than it was in the Card years.
Kathy Kidd's Paradise Vue books are well written and inciteful
Do yourself a favor and read Levi S. Peterson's "The Backslider". Actually, read anything by him. Your taste in Mormon fiction needs help.
--Shoeboy
Re:Oh my god (Score:1)
Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Three orange whips!
Re:Enders Game, the book (Score:1)
Did you notice any Mormon bias's in the book. (I personally didn't, but wondered if anyone else saw anything)
Yes, I find subtle Mormon "biases" in all of Card's books. Generally they're not things that a non-Mormon would even recognize, because they're not overt nor even intentional, IMO. They're related to Card's view of the world, of ethics and morality and of the truth about how people act and why they do it, and his worldview has its roots in Mormonism. To another person who was raised in the same environment, it's pretty obvious. To "outsiders" I wouldn't think it's noticeably Mormon at all.
Re:Age induced orthodoxy... (Score:1)
Luminous (Score:2)
I might have read the story called "Luminous", but I can't find a collection called "Luminous" on Amazon.com. Another odd thing is that Egan's biblio on his website lists "Reasons to be Cheerful" (which I'm sure I've read) as being in "Luminous" (which I know I haven't read) and NOT in "Axiomatic" (which I own). It also lists "Unstable Orbits in the Space of Lies" (which I don't recognize the title of) as being in Axiomatic.
Maybe I'll have to write directly to him to find out where I can get these books...
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MailOne [openone.com]
Re:One name could definitely get the movie made (Score:1)
Re:my comments (Score:1)
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:1)
Ender (Score:1)
Hitler (Score:1)
Care about freedom?
Mormon Themes (Score:2)
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:1)
this piece of bird droppings.
Re:Oh my god (Score:1)
The sterile tone of the orgy was clearly intentional and crafted with excruciating care. Don't you wonder what the intended meaning of the scene was and how it fit into the themes of sexuality and fidelity present throughout the movie? No, you're just sorry you didn't get turned on by yet another hollywood rendition of an orgy. Maybe VIPs can be turned on by other things than just sensuality (hint: power, sacrafice, ritual, anonymity, cruelty, etc).
Feel free to dislike EWS, but at least dislike it for what it is, not what you think it is.
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:2)
I agree the tipical Niven style has no charactor devlopment (unless mind control or eating a plant counts). That makes his novels hard for some people to enjoy, while his short stories remain great.
However I'm not quite as negitave, I like his novels as well, just not as much as his short stories. I like his older work more then his newer, but I'm not sure how much of that is him, or me.
The one exception? Destinies Road. Decent plot and charactor devlopment, and decent wonders as well :-) It was a late 90s book, and IMHO his best novel.
Re:I love Card (Score:2)
I actually read _Ender's Game_ for my senior year English and I'm really not into books, so I started out thinking, Ohh great, another crappy book I have to read so I pass this class. But that book was the best! I'd recommend it to everyone, and I'm excited about the movie thats coming out! I'm sure it will be awesome like all the books!!!!!!!
Re:Spoiler (Not True in Book) (Score:2)
Major Graff != Mazer Rackham
Major Graff does not have a surprise identity in Ender's Game (the book).
Two words: "The Postman" (Score:2)
David Brin's novel practically screamed movie script, and look how well it did in the theatres. Moving Sci-Fi novels to the screen is just plain hard, and the hardest ones to adapt are the ones centered around an unusual character in an unusual situation. The Bicentennial Man is another recent example of this phenomenon.
So yes, I agree: Leave Ender's Game as a great novel. OSC, if you want a screenplay, write an original screenplay. You certainly are capable of this, and the result is likely to be far superior to any adaptation of your print work.
Being a Card Fan (Score:1)
It's one of the reasons I've tried to give up long series of books, and go for one-offs, or at worst trilogies that are already finished. Of course that doesn't help for the series that I started maybe 15 years ago, when I was a kid, and still aren't finished.
If no other way (Score:1)
Re:Ender's tale: Limey perversions (Score:1)
Care about freedom?
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:2)
You're probably right, although Haley Joel Osmet [kidactors.com](sixth sense) would probably be a great choice (yeah, but where do you find a dozen more like him?).
Re:Enders Game, the book (Score:2)
That's why it's science fiction.
Play time in the battle area is analgous to fighter planes and space craft how?
It's not the same in a direct physical aspect, but I'm sure you noticed that in the book, it wasn't an issue of how the parallel in a physcial sense, rather the purpose of the battle area was to build the bonds between Ender and the other students. Ender needed to understand the other kids, how they thought and what type of responsibility they could each handle. Also it built their trust of Ender as a leader and this became vital later on when Ender was fighting the buggers.
But the most interesting part of that was glossed over as Ender felt really bad. So he spent a long time talking about dead people and that made it better.
I agree, that is one of the most interesting aspects of the book. And I don't think it was glossed over, he was a psychological wreck at the end of the book. Also if you keep reading the other books in the series, he never really get's over the fact that he killed a whole race of sentient beings. He spends the rest of his life trying to save life to atone for his sins. In Speaker for the Dead, Ender says, "I'm not one to despise other people for their sins . . . I haven't found one yet, that I didn't say inside myself, I've done worse than this."
As I often try to tell people, Ender's Game itself is only a fun action book that Card wrote when he was young. He then later expanded on the idea and used Ender as the main character in a much more rich series of books. The Ender's Game series is more of a philosophical series where Card gets to talk about life, death, genocide, right, wrong, morality, etc, etc. I admit that he tends to deify Ender too much, but the debates he has between the various characters intrigued me greatly (much more than the action in Ender's Game).
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:1)
I read it when I was about 19, as part of a sci-fi literature class at UC Santa Barbara. (That was a COOL class -- we read Watchmen and Dark Knight returns too!)
I am 29 now, and I just finished re-reading LOTR, and I also enjoyed it a lot more than when I was 10, or 12, or whenever I first found it.
Re:Enders Game, the book (Score:2)
What's so amazing? That we give emotion a role in selecting entertainment while we avoid it in writing code? Maybe because entertainment is in large part emotion, and code is only in tiny part emotion?
To me it wan't the best book in the world. It felt that way when I was 15 and reading it the first time. It doesn't make my personal top 100 anymore, but it still gets to be "worth the read".
In SF plausability isn't even that big of a deal as long as there is internal consistancy. If you read Asmov's robot tales they arn't very plauable (at least they don't seem so plusable anymore). But they are internally consistant.
Re:Unusual characters? (Score:1)
Re:Ringworld (Score:2)
tanj: There ain't no justice.
I think Niven considered a lot of characterization redundant for Ringworld given all of the material already available for the Known Space series, and left it out.
Read what Card said 3 years ago (Score:1)
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V117/N61/scifi.61n.html [mit.edu]
Re:Ender's tale: Limey perversions (Score:1)
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Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:2)
*shudder* I've never gotten past page 15 of ANY Niven collaboration (or page 5 of anything with "Steven Barnes", scare quotes indicate my skepticism that this name refers to a human rather than an experiment in poor writing skills)
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MailOne [openone.com]
Ender's game as Anime? (Score:1)
Ender's, or HGTTG? (Score:2)
Hmmm, so which do you think will make it to movie screens first: and Ender's Game movie, or a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy movie? :-)
Both have been in limbo forever. They might be able to make a decent go of Ender's, but I'm thinking there's no way an American studio could pull off a HGTTG movie that captures the feel of the original. It's just too full of British humor and world-weary (universe-weary?) stiff upper-lippedness. And even if they could pull it off, they jsut wouldn't want to. Bastards. Damn this post got OT in a hurry OK I'm cutting myself off no----
http://www.bootyproject.org [bootyproject.org]
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:1)
Re:I love Card (Score:1)
Re:Ender's tale: Limey perversions (Score:2)
There are those who complain that his books are too "preachy" and also there are those (mostly "orthodox" Mormons) who complain that his books should bear a stronger witness of his faith. My guess is that the "anonymous coward" who placed this post is looking a little too hard for homosexual references. He can probably find them in the phonebook if he looks hard enough!
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:2)
Well, I first read Ender's game as the original short story, when I was in high school or college, I forget which. It was perfect as a short story, very powerful and concise. It was especially powerful in its abrupt ending, very different from the angst and moralization in the novel that follows Ender's last ultimate victory against the Buggers. The story left the moral indecision and obvious rationalizations as an exercise for the reader.
Given its high quality as a short story, I was aghast the first time I saw that it was made into a full length novel. Usually, novelization of a good short story is as big a disaster as the transfer of a good novel to film. But I read it anyway, and was pleasanly surprised to find that the main flavor of the original short story was left predominantly intact. The short story was there with a lot of background and detail filled in, plus what was really another couple of stories about Ender's siblings and the Buggers.
Looking back now, I'm uncertain whether I would have liked the novel as much without first having loved the original short story. One thing is certain, though. All the rest of the Ender series, including Speaker for the Dead, is just plain drivel compared to the original story.
Re:A funny thing happened between Speaker... (Score:2)
And, so what if Ender's life parallels Hitler's? So what if the reader sympathizes with him? That just makes it all the more interesting.
Re:Ringworld (Score:1)
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Re:Spoiler (Score:1)
Why I hate Orson Scott Card: (Score:1)
Personally, I'm vaguely opposed to most religions, but I find the Mormon church particularly frightening. His recent books are more overt in their proselytizing, and that (thankfully) is hurting their quality. Unfortunately, some of his older books were more subtle but very very extremist.
The most offensive example was in one of the "Call to Earth" books, a major hero was a homosexual. I remember thinking, "Gee, ain't that progressive," But I later realized that Card only put in the character so that he could do the right thing and marry a woman.
I read his short story collection, where you can *watch* his prose quality degrading, and he does the similar things in many of the stories. It's pretty horrifying.
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Re:Age induced orthodoxy. He is browbeating (Score:1)
The Lost Boys was very frustrating, in that every character that wasn't a Mormon had severe character flaws, or just plain evil.
I haven't read one of his books since, because I know that the enjoyment will be sucked out of reading it. I'll wind up looking for pro-Mormon messages in the text.
Re:Why I hate Orson Scott Card: (Score:3)
You're trying too hard. Sure, you could look at that as Orson Scott Card pushing his homophobia on you. Or, it could be a character faced with a difficult issue: The survival of their small band in the long term depended on procreation. This character (I wish I could remember his name) decided that contributing to that survival was more important than his sexual preference. He didn't do it because "God told him to".
Homosexuality in today's society doesn't have to deal with that sort of scenario because the perpetuation of the human race does not depend on such a small group of people. So, the decisions are different.
As for his prose degrading, I would suspect that it has more to do with his desire to crank out such huge amounts of work than increased "moralization". It certainly contributes, if nothing else.
Re:Age induced orthodoxy... (Score:2)
Obviously both have changed -- everybody has changed over that time. My point was rather that Sunstone has changed since he editted it, as the implication was that he was the one doing all the changing.
2. What exactly has Sunstone become? Since the excommunication of the September 6, it's been more conservative and mainstream than it was in the Card years.Sunstone's never particularly been my thing, and I've only read a handful of things from it, so I can respond primarily based on comments I recall Scott making about it (and some of those comments were referring to things at Signature Press, so they might not all apply to Sunstone per se). During his time, his interest was in making a place for an honest exploration of the gospel without a lot of the white-washing through traditional forums, rather than a place for attacking the Church which he saw it becoming. YMMV, of course, and my recollection my be faulty, but I think you can find his thoughts about this in A Storyteller in Zion, which has been re-released, apparently
As to whether it's more conservative or mainstream, I can't speak, but certainly those judgments can be as subjective as your opinion about my taste.
Re:Ender's tale: Limey perversions (Score:1)
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:1)
Re:Ender's tale: Limey perversions (Score:1)
Spoiling the "spoiler" (Score:1)
Unusual characters? (Score:1)
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:1)
"Luminous" is a sort of cyberpunk meets distrubted.net meets Godel, Escher, and Bach type of story involving an optical computer. It is available in the collection titled Luminous.
Funny, I found the beginning of Teranesia much more enjoyable than the end. The last several chapters just seemed rushed, and didn't really explore the implications of the scientific "hook" at all.
--
Bush's assertion: there ought to be limits to freedom
Enders Game, the book (Score:3)
But i've noticed that geeks seem drawn to it. My theory is that it's the quintissential geek fable. Smart kid ridiculed, society beats him up, but he saves world by virtue of his intelligence. How many people in the audience dreamed about killing their childhood nemisis? If you can seperate the plot from the wet dream of zero g space combat where hard work and intelligence defeats athletic ability the book is full of holes. Two kids (again super intelligent) dupe the world into thinking they are the new intelligensitia? Am I the only one in the world who smacked himself in the forhead when you read that? I mean please...
Play time in the battle area is analgous to fighter planes and space craft how?
It was an interesting book, if you look at the idea of duping someone into genocide. But the most interesting part of that was glossed over as Ender felt really bad. So he spent a long time talking about dead people and that made it better.
I'm reading Crime and Punishment and the contrast in abilities (dostevsky and Card) is brutal. But because of the central , geek friendly, theme Card gets cut a lot of slack. Has anyone else noticed this? Am I wrong? Missing something?
Re:Ender's, or HGTTG? (Score:2)
(You could also add the supposed 'hard-core sci-fi' "Doctor Who" movie done by the same guy that did Event Horizon (I wanna say Ripley Scott, but that doesn't jive right), with rumors of it following up to the FOX travesity (which the BBC has said is canon, wah!)
(And following up to some of the followups of this post, there was a 6 part miniseries done in the early 70s by the BBC for HHGTTG, which, given the BBC at that time, was rather decent and kept with the campiness of the book).
Oh my god (Score:1)
Why not go the Final Fantasy route? (Score:3)
The solution? Easy. Computer animation, my friend.
Anyone who's seen the trailers for Final Fantasy, or even that one computer-animated Saturday morning cartoon on the WB network, will tell you that CGI has come a long, long way, and is now more than capable of telling a story like Ender's Game.
A CGI movie would make things like the massive zero-g battle scenes very easy to do, and special effects would be simple. Furthermore, you don't have to worry about finding a good child actor, just a good voice actor who sounds like a kid. What's more, CGI opens up the potential for sequels -- with real child actors, by the time you got around to doing a sequel, the kid would be older and wrong for the part. With CGI, the actors are ageless.
I think this is something OSC should give serious consideration to. Given the recent massive popularity of CGI movies, I think studios would be much more open to doing a CGI film than a film with a bunch of child actors.
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Re:Age induced orthodoxy. He is browbeating (Score:2)
Actually, every character in that book (and all the rest of his) had character flaws -- some of them pretty major. The Mormon characters had just as many as anybody else -- Sister LeSuere, for example.
Lost Boys was as Mormon as it was because it was semi-autobiographical (the short-story version was told in the first person using the names of his actual family). People I know who live in his area actually know the people some of those characters (particularly the Mormon ones) are based on. There was nothing pushy about Mormonism in it, and it is far from a missionary tract. It happens to show the most realistic version of Mormon life of any piece of fiction I'd seen at the point it was written (and I'm not sure I've seen better since).
Scott makes no secret of his religious belief. He doesn't hide it. But that's not the same as attempting to push it down anybody's throat. Even his Mormon-oriented writing is not based in trying to persuade people that Mormonism is true. He expresses his beliefs, and invites people to explore and come to their own conclusions. I've seen people cram their beliefs down others throats -- I've seen it tried around here -- and that's not what he does.
Re:Ender's, or HGTTG? (Score:2)
In case you don't know, Douglas Adams has been in negotionations forever to get the movie made (you know, actual movie screen, theater, the whole thing... quite different from the small box in your living room, unles you've got a MUCH nicer entertainment setup than me). Sicne the 80's, there have been about a zillion scripts and the rights themselves have changed hands a couple of times. Apparently the closest it ever came to being made was when Harold Ramis (director of Ghostbusters, Animal House, etc) was involved. However, apparently Adams wasn't happy because Ramis & co were sort of turning it into a slapstick kinda comedy set in space, which might be funny (ala Spaceballs) but is miles away from the absurd, existensial angst-ridden (yet extremely hilarious) nature of the novels.
http://www.bootyproject.org [bootyproject.org]
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:2)
I finally read it for the first time last year after meaning to for a long time, and I can kind of agree with you on the quality of it, but if I'd read it at like 14 or 15 I think I'd be one of the rabid fans as well.
I think it's a worthwhile skill to still be able to read like a child. I'm just now (at 29) reading the Lord of the Rings for the first time, and it's far more enjoyable (although of course not necessary, I'm not comparing OSC and JRRT) if I read it from my 12-year-old mindset. I would have missed a lot of what I'm picking up now, so I'm not implying that it's a children's book either, but there's just something about a youthful imagination that enhances the experience of SF/Fantasy.
That said, I did enjoy Ender's Game, mainly because I read it from that point of view. It's a bit like reading SE Hinton as an adult -- it's still a good story, but the writing isn't as mature as an adult would hope for.
How old was OSC when he wrote Ender's Game?
SoH (I wish Plain Old Text was default!!!) (Score:2)
I just read this and while I thoroughly enjoyed it, I was also left a bit disappointed for the following reasons:
1) We never really get to see Bean demonstrate his extraordinary intellect like we did in Ender's Shadow. I was hoping to see Bean strategically outthink Achilles in an open ground war, similar to how Ender outthinked his opponents in Battle School.
2) The same goes for Peter. We never really get clearer insight into why Peter is so extraordinarily gifted. Yes, he is Locke, but what did Peter do that makes him an "Ender without a conscience"? All he did was pull a string to get Bean a 'toon and sit on a proposal until Bean got angry. In EG/ES, we got to see Ender and Bean negotiate, analyze, and blackmail their way to social power while demonstrating their pure tactical brilliance in combat.
3) The same goes for Achilles. I was hoping to get more on the "how" of his operation rather than being suddenly told that he suddenly got power over some global power. How did he manage that? In EG/ES we came to understand *exactly* how Ender and Bean got theirs, and how Achilles got to Battle School. But SoH leaves us wondering what Achilles did to dupe the Russians and Indians. Who did he murder? Who did he cajole?
I'm not saying that SoH was a bad book, but I don't feel that it quite measures up to EG or ES. I'm still waiting for Bean to create ever-shifting patterns of hovercrafts and other such strategy....
Remember, the enemy HQ is south.
I love Card (Score:2)
Age induced orthodoxy... (Score:4)
As he ages, he becomes more and more devout.
He used to edit Sunstone, but now he won't even attend the Sunstone symposium because they allow excommunicated members of the church to speak.
He's been proclaiming some horrible pieces of uplifting trash as "the best Mormon novels ever written" and he's apologized for some of his early works.
I don't think he could write a quality sentence these days much less a novel.
Such a pity.
--Shoeboy
Not happening (Score:3)
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Re:Why I hate Orson Scott Card: (Score:2)
Ender's Game:
I don't know if he's homophobic or homosexual. All I know is that there is way more symbolism in that book than is apparent at first glance.
Why let Hollywood stop it? (Score:2)
How did we get into this situation, where we let Hollywood resign us to glitzy, no-quality crap movies year-in year-out? Why not start your own studio? With modern computing technology, filming this one isn't as much of a problem as it used to be. The reason Hollywood has such a stranglehold on entertainment is because no one has the get-up-and-go to make them competitive anymore. And when corporate groups become monopolistic and have no competition, they always cease providing quality good and services.
Some capitalist enterprise is what we need.
-Kasreyn
A big resounding "NO" on the movie, please! (Score:5)
I hope I'm not the only one that feels that a movie on EG would be a BAD idea, however not just because we know exactly how Hollywood would mangle it for things like Ender's thoughts, etc, and would focus more on action scenes rather than plot and character. My more worrisome concern is that there's a certain mystique about the visuals in the book; beyond certain key descriptions such as how the academy looks and the zero-g room so that the plot works in flawlessly, we don't have much about what Ender's like, what Peter, Valentine, Bean, and other key characters are beyond 'they're kids'. We only have vague descriptions of the looks of the school from the inside, of how the computer systems work, etc. I want to kept that mystique, because Ender's Game works on the premise that you don't need to know this stuff, and knowing it would distract from the key elements of the book.
The other, somewhat important issue, is that you are going to need to find not only about a dozen *talented* child actors of the right ageset, but also about 50 to 100 more that are sufficiently serious to fill the rest of the school and do some of the stunts you'd need to adequetely do the zero-g room. And one thing with child actors that are keyed for certain parts is that they have a limited shelf life before they're too old. The 6th Sense kid, for example, or McCulley Culkin (sp) -- if you tried to film for more than a year, you'd have serious aging problems. It might not matter too much in EG, since you're looking about about a timeframe of 3 to 4 years for the bulk of the book, but it still can proof challenging.
Re:Ender's, or HGTTG? (Score:2)
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:4)
I first read Ender's Game when I was in college. A friend suggested it to me. I loved that book. I suspect I always will. However, if I first read it today, maybe I would not feel the same way. As an example, I tried reading Kerouak's On the Road a couple years ago (I am serveral years out of college now). I just could not get into it. But for many friends who read it when they were younger, it was a very formative novel. It resonated with whatever was going on in their life at that time. I think Ender's Game is the same way. It resonates with the events of our youth.
Now, anything after Ender's Game is a different story. No apologies here at all, but Speaker for the Dead was okay; Xenocide and Children of the Mind pretty much sucked. I was so disgusted by the time I finished Children, I did not even want to pick up Ender's Shadow. I had my fill of O.S. Card. I am not alone, either.
And here is why: Ender's game was excellent Science Fiction. Xenocide and Children of the Mind? Those were pulp SciFi. Most people don't make a distinction between the two, but Harlan Ellison (god bless his twisted little soul) and I do.
Science Fiction is fiction with some sort of scientifically intriguing setting and that is all. The real story comes from character and plot development. SciFi relies almost totally on the gimmicks of the universe the story is set in. Say, for example, philotes. (Of course, there is a spectum here, so not everything, including the things I mention, fall neatly into one category or the other.)
To draw a parallel: Babylon 5 was Science Fiction for the most part; StarTrek almost exclusively a SciFi franchise. Proof of point: in STNG, nearly any time the crew got in trouble, all they had to do was call on Gordi LaForge to pull their collective asses out of the fire some imaginative application of the HyperSpace Butt-winch. It was not until the later seasons that we got to see some deeper character development. Babylon 5 on the other hand was all about the characters and their interactions developed over 5 years.
Now, I am not saying that SciFi sucks. I like SciFi when that is what I want. Is there good SciFi? Hell, yeah: Stargate SG1. Or is that Science Fiction? Oh well. When I want Science Fiction, I seek that out and enjoy it too. I think what upset me about the Ender series was that good Science Fiction degenerated into bad SciFi. Philotes? Gimme a break. I found the transition from "Ender: destroyer of worlds" to "Philotes: our souls, our saviours" to be way too saccharine.
The only way to do this... (Score:3)
Now with the Matrix and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, perhaps it would be conceivable to do this in live action, but do you have time to train 6 year old kids to do those kinds of stunts before they grow up?
I'm sure any Ender's Game movie would be a letdown if done with today's tech. Let this one stew for another 20 years. It probably will be worth the wait.
A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:5)
I love SF and I have read all the classics, and as much modern stuff as I have time for. But man, I just could NOT get into Ender's Game. Mod me down, but there it is -- I didn't like the book. Couldn't even finish the sequel. I know this is high treason on
I don't think a movie adaptation is a good idea. It's rare enough to find one kid who can act, let alone a whole gaggle of them. It will probably be painful to watch if it's ever made. Imagine a dozen Anakin Skywalkers. Ack.
I think I'll go read some Larry Niven now. Some OLD Niven... his latest books haven't been so hot. (Speaking of movies that shouldn't be made... Ringworld. What a great book; what a terrible movie it will probably make. I hear Phil Tippet is the director, and Chow yun-Fat may play Louis Wu. They have a hard road ahead.)
Oh, off-topic public service message: Avoid "Teranesia" by Greg Egan. How could the guy who wrote "Quarantine," and that GREAT short story "Luminous" turn out this trash?
In closing, let me say, "... and I would have done it, too, if it weren't for you MEDDLING KIDS!"
Movie Donations (Score:2)
Ender's Game video game (Score:2)
Now on to the reason I posted in the first place. Has anyone heard any news on a video game version of Ender's Game. I talked to Card at a book signing a few years ago about it. The impression I got is that he is open to the idea, but that he is also being very cautious to make sure that the game is done right.
Re:Enders Game, the book (Score:2)
The other books in the original series expand on this concept, dealing with humanity and genocide, and Ender's role. Card admits that Ender's Game and the rest of the series are entirely different tones, one being the kind of book that will appeal to kids, the rest being more serious, deeper works.
I know I first read Ender's Game when I was 14 or so, and I think it appealed to me for the reasons you hypothesized. I'm reading Crime and Punishment and the contrast in abilities (dostevsky and Card) is brutal. But because of the central , geek friendly, theme Card gets cut a lot of slack. Has anyone else noticed this? Am I wrong? Missing something?
I read it again when I was 21, and I saw it from a totally different point of view. The second time I read it, it was an amusing book, but nothing profound. I'm also of the opinion that not everything I read has to be of the level of the classics (though I really don't like Dostevsky). As for Card getting cut a lot of slack, most sci-fi writers get cut a lot of slack. I don't read sci-fi expecting everything I read to be dead on realistic. If I want that I'll go read some non-fiction, perhaps a historical work. Ender's Game works for the same reasons that Horatio Alger's works did, because the underdog prevails.
A funny thing happened between Speaker... (Score:5)
A friend of mine hated Ender's game; she said it was the worst novel she'd ever read from its sappy tearjerking to its queasy morality to the blatant justification of genocide at the end. She refused to ever read another Card book. I didn't feel as strongly as she did, found the book readable, but I took her point.
At the time she was a SFWA member so she got a free copy of Speaker. Since she didn't want it, she gave it to me. When I read it I got back to her and said, "you're not going to believe this, he escapes to a planet copied from Brazil."
I gave her back the book, and next thing I know she is drawing up a tremendous list of coincidences, at least 75, between Ender's life and upbringing and that of one A. Hitler. This turned into a meticulously researched article -- I saw the doc package, which was an inch and a half thick -- which was published in the final issue of Science Fiction Review,. That article was titled Ender and Hitler: Sympathy for the Superman? by Elaine Radford.
SFR is no longer with us but the article and Card's rebuttal were republished by Literary Review, so it's probably there in your meatspace library if you're curious. I don't think the article is online anywhere.
While it was startling to see just how closely Ender parallels Hitler, even more startling was Card's reaction. He seemed to be completely unaware of many of the key passages in the book which Radford cited. This is clear from his rebuttal, which was amazingly lame and ignorant (several times stating bluntly that passages didn't exist which Radford had documented). It was obvious to me that he couldn't have written the book, at least not in anything finer than general outline.
At the time it was expected that Card would sweep the Hugos and Nebulas for a third time in a row with the sequel to Speaker. Instead it took him, what, four or five years to get around to writing it. I am convinced that Superman had a lot to do with it. He pulled a mammoth con job off on the SF community and almost got away with it. For the most part he still has, but he did blink.
Now, back to my copy of The Martians...
Re:A funny thing happened between Speaker... (Score:2)
C'mon, if it was blatant, why is it so debated?
Ender parallels Hitler
Absolutely. Intentionally. If anything, Card was shocked by so many people's problem with this parallel. It illustrates perfectly his point: the people of Ender's future can't see anything about Ender but the act. Genocide has obscured anything else important about Wiggin's humanity. But being critized for daring to draw parallels to ol' Adolph...well, that just reminds me of the kind of criticism that resulted in no new Salinger masterpieces.
***Disclaimer: I'm not at all saying Hitler wasn't the most evil SOB in history***
But I am saying that our culture has made it impossible to even explore, even as just an excercise, any other possibility. This is scarier than anything else, IMHO.
A good analysis of the book can be found at this link. [pepperdine.edu] In it, Collings discusses the obvious Christ parallels in Ender's Game. The twelve 'apostles' following Ender in the end battle. His descent into the 'underworld' (the bugger world) after he saves humanity. His sacrifice for Man, etc. Now, as I see it, Hitler had about as big a Christ complex as anyone. Any surprise that there might be some parallels between Hitler and any messianic tale? Could work just as easily for Dune...
Re:A Solitary Voice of Dissent (Score:2)
Re:Ender's tale: Limey perversions (Score:2)
It's totally unfair, just because we straight guys don't like shoe shopping. But the minute they need a big stiffie, they come running back to the straigh guys. .
Possible Actors? (Score:3)
Thank god. I don't think I would have made it through 2001 if I had to hear, "I see dead ewoks."
Spoiler (Score:2)
Oh great, thanks for giving that away. Not all of us have ready it already, sigh...
Re:Age induced orthodoxy... (Score:2)
That's an interesting idea that makes sense if you haven't followed Scott's writing over the years. In the days when he editted Sunstone, it was very different from what Sunstone became (which is why he left it). He still speaks with essentially the same voice he did then -- willing to explore the truths of his religion with honest eyes, and without losing his faith. The world would be better if many more people were willing to do that than currently do.
I'll assume you're referring to the Hatrack River books as "horrible pieces of uplifting trash", and I can't agree with that. They're humorous, but they also dig into the realities of Mormon life in ways that "uplifting trash" won't. Kathy Kidd's Paradise Vue books are well written and inciteful
I'm sorry you don't like where Scott's going with his writing. Perhaps you aren't his audience anymore. I don't know. I am. I find his writing to still be engaging and interesting.