William Gibson On Japan 143
An Anonymous Coward writes: "There's an interesting rant by William Gibson on his fascination with American futurist conception of Japanese culture over at The Observer. Also of note is one readers take on it." This is a little odd, not usual slashdot fare. But I thought it was interesting reading, so maybe you will too.
Yes and No . . . (Score:2)
A Londoner just back from Japan (Score:2)
The "Mobile Girls". In this, I don't actually think Japan is any different from the UK, or Germany or Sweden. Here in Europe practically everyone between 11 and 40 has a mobile phone (and lots of other people too), and the girls can text like lightening here too. My little sisters have a mobile and they can text faster than I can. The amazing thing about the Japanese girls is that they can do it in Kanji! A friend I met there demonstrated: you enter what you want to say in a phonemic form, then the 'phone offers you several ways to say the same thing in Kanji script. That, combined with the larger screens of the iMode phones, means it's convenient to receive much longer messages.
Oh, and DoCoMo phones can receive email as conveniently as a text message. I wish I had that.
Technology adoption. In Tokyo, I got the net from an Ethernet cable in my hotel room. Damn fast too. I wish I'd had the same in Yokohama.
Conformism. I don't think it's as bad as people say. Certainly the streets of Tokyo don't look like the humourless regiments people seem to imagine, just people holding hands, laughing and enjoying themselves at the weekend in the glorious weather under the cherry blossom. I went to a Tokyo goth club and it was a fabulous experience - you can see pictures at
www.cluefactory.org.uk/paul/photos/tokyo/eve/
- no conformism there!
I've never been that far away before - Tokyo was a real eye-opener, and while there were many unusual things (Pocari Sweat is called that because it's an isotonic sports drink), the Japanese are not the aliens people seem to think. And don't worry about the politeness rules too much, they're used to gaijin getting it wrong, just don't blow your nose in public...
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Re:Interesting, but a Rant it is. (Score:1)
The "velvet gloved fist of friendship" would refer to someone who is acting aggressively but covering it up with a thin veil of friendship.
The key words here are "fist" and "velvet-covered". I think that you and the person to whom you are responding are really saying the same thing
Re:Neuromancer (Score:2)
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Stephenson has said the two books aren't really related; he just put the YT/Miss. Matheson thing in as an easter egg.
--Phil (Owner of a signed copy of Cryptonomicon. (Hi, Jay))
Re:Symbiotic relationships.. (Score:1)
London? Paris!! (Score:2)
The French share
Alas the sense of cleanliness is rather shared with the Swiss (Paris toilets? Yuck!).
Re:lets trot out all the old stereotypes, shall we (Score:2)
To say that one culture is better than another at some such thing seems to an American to be somehow racist (especially to an Asian-American). But in Japan, thinking up differences between Japanese and Americans is practically a national sport.
The original poster is 100% correct on every point. Japanese businesses spend very little time and resources developing "new" things. They believe all our trade publications, that gush about how X technology is going to change the world, to be gospel truth. Every new development in the US sends them into a panic, because what they fear more than anything else is to be left in the US's technological dust.
Japanese-style R&D instead focuses on these new American developments, and how Japanese businesses can implement them quickly so as to avoid getting "cut out of the loop" as it were.
Because of this, newer technologies like XML, Java, Linux, PHP, and the ubiquitous Keitai Denwa (the portable data phones Gibson speaks of) are all very mainstream here.
I tell my Japanese coworkers that Java and Linux aren't terribly popular in the US, and they don't believe me.
(With regard to my "farm", I have a 4-year degree in Japanese, I have been married to a Japanese national for 6 years, I work in a Japanese software company (that makes games written in PHP for said phones), and I'm posting from the city of Hakata.)
Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is (Score:3)
no Birth control (until last year)
But abortions were cheap and plentiful...
and no law against denying somone a promotion because they are a woman... (well, also not until last year)... The contradiction of the techno idolatry and the hedgemonc morality of the society amazes me.
Also no law against denying employment/promotion to white guys like me. Actually, there is almost no form of institutionalized artificial equality. Even so, I like the fact that the government doesn't regulate every aspect of corporate life here. It just means you have to try harder is all.
You forgot to mention that in Japan there are no surveillance cameras, no drug tests, and no background checks. Civil servants and customer service representatives are polite, and most of all competent. Even the police. That's a future I could go for.
And as for the "pressure to conform"... Who applies that pressure? The government? The army? Or is it completely voluntary?
I understand how it could be difficult for an American to understand why anyone would ever conform, believe in a religion, obey the law, or respect other people unless they were somehow forced or coerced to, but that is because America's social contract has ruptured and everyone mistrusts everything and everyone else. Not because the Japanese are somehow gullible mindless automatons.
There is no more pressure to conform here than anywhere else. All that's different it that the Japanese are not nearly as cynical about each other and their social institutions. Everyone benefits from a society that runs smoothly and where everyone does what is expected of them.
Re:Anglo-Japanese Parallels (Score:1)
I'd say that the Celts were Anglicized, not displaced.
My impression:
Japan: Fond of BDSM.
England: Fond of BDSM.
Japan: They thought they should rule Asia.
England: They thought they should rule Asia.
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Re:Uh,are you saying Italians are proud of Mussoli (Score:1)
Actually, Italians were on both sides. There were the Fascists and there were the partisans (and the Mafia).
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Blowing your nose (Score:1)
Er... How to do it then? (I feel like a barbarian).
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Re:Neuromancer (Score:1)
Re:Symbiotic relationships.. (Score:2)
AI seems a little reckless when your talking about ripsaw-wielding, flame-throwing robots, many of which can move a lot faster than you can run...
I'm sure injuries would be rare, considering how smart the builders are. But geeks also tend to be absent minded, and mistakes could be lethal.
"Hey is this thing on?" BZZZZZ CHOP-CHOP-CHOP FWOOOOSH (sizzle-sizzle) "Medic!"
Re:But what do the Japanese think of Americans? (Score:2)
all Americans shower every day
You've never been to a Grateful Dead show have you? Hell, I've been know to skip a day now and then (but it's always at least 5 times a week).
I hear they used to have to practically force James Dean into the shower. :)
Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:1)
Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:1)
Ah, the toilet argument again. People who bring up the issue of high-tech toilets in Japan usually fail to mention the fact that nearly 1/3 of the households in Japan don't even have flush toilets -- they have otoshi benjo, a kind of inside latrine in which wastes go through a hole in the floor into a tank, which is cleaned out periodically by a guy with a ``vacuum car.''
Re:Become Japanese? No Thanks! (Score:2)
However, there are plenty examples of japanese youths growing out of the shadows of their parents post-war generation that realize that with the current economic problems japan has they will not work for one company and conform to it their whole lives.
Do I want to turn Japanese, no. I like anime and sushi and would like to one day visit Japan on a vacation but I grew in an individaulistic society and that is where I will stay. To be interested in another culture does not necessarily mean that you have to reject your own. I have a problem with that.
Sometimes I see the otaku or the cafe beatnik dark clad eurotrash wannabe bashing america and praising whatever culture they tend to prefer. It is as if to recognize problems in ones own culture you had to reject it in the same breath and then choose another one. The culture I have grown up in is not anywhere near perfect but it is my own to live with or help to change if the need is there. Then I have to laugh because as many people have pointed there are difficulties with every culture and set of ideals.
Becoming Japanese, no. Wanting to look out and see the world through another culture's eyes to understand the people? Yeah, I can do that.
Re:Neuromancer (Score:2)
Re:Symbiotic relationships.. (Score:2)
Re:Symbiotic relationships.. (Score:2)
Re:lets trot out all the old stereotypes, shall we (Score:2)
Re:Symbiotic relationships.. (Score:2)
Some of it is that AI would raise the bar needed to enter but they COULD have sepperate competition classes..
Another thing about America is that Suits have way to much power. We should challenge those lawyers with the spinning wheel of death and a good flamethrower and see what happens. Something of the nature of celebrity death matches but pitting real lawyers against real robots?
Re:Neuromancer (Score:2)
Stephenson is much more optimistic in general and his books are heavily researched. They read like class lecture notes with wonderful stories woven in. Crytonomical is almost a textbook. It even has working programs in it! Snow Crash I think is situated a little ahead of The Diamond Age on the time line but you can easily see how one story leads to the other. Stephenson books can often be a lot to handle if you aren't very familiar with the topics being discussed. You literally get a dose of facts and theories that are used as the backdrop for the stories and you have to digest all that before the story can make sense. It's sort of like Star Wars.. every time you watch(read) it again you uncover new layers.
Gibson is very dark. His books have a sort of Blade Runner quality to them and seem very chaotic and afraid of technology. Given the fact that he admits not to be a 'geek' I think it unsurprising that he has something of a fear of technology which he works into his stories. For the masses Gibson probably makes more sense than Sterling or Stephenson as I think the average person probably fears technology on some level. Gibson books are good stories but they seem much more shallow and less educational.
Re:Symbiotic relationships.. (Score:2)
Re:Neuromancer (Score:2)
Symbiotic relationships.. (Score:3)
An exmaple.. Look at out robots.. America has Battle Bots.. an over pumped wrestling federation type of robot fighting game with big bad to the point robots.. the British have Robot Wars (I think that is the name) which is a lot like Battle Bots but the robots tend to be more goofy and cute and look less like something designed to beat your neighbor up. Their show in general lacks the over the top behavior of the American counterpart. The Japanese take robots and slap them into cute little bodies and give them some basic AI abilities and make a forture off it all.
Re:Inspiration from home (Score:2)
Also, the Asians in Vancouver are predominantly Chinese. Chinese culture is closer to American or Canadian or almost any other Western culture than it is to Japanese culture. (I lived in China for a year, too.) The Japanese are really mindblowingly different, in terms of their culture. And I expect that they will always remain that way; even as they import Western culture wholesale, they change it and make it their own. Being here is like viewing Western culture through a fun-house mirror. I recognise things, but I don't.
Re:A Londoner just back from Japan (Score:2)
It's not amazing that they can do it in kanji, because it's easier! On phones you do the input directly in hiragana, rather than in romaji as you (usually) do on a computer. So you're probably averaging 3-4 button presses per syllable, rather than the 2-3 presses per letter you need in English. Once you've got the hiragana there, you can just scroll through a list of the matching kanji (produced via dictionary lookup--yes, all Japanese phones have a Japanese dictionary inside them).
Combine this with the fact that in Japanese you can (and usually do) leave out a lot of "known" information, and you end up saving a lot of button-presses when writing in Japanese rather than English. I can probably enter "kaato desu. doko ni desuka." (about 13 hiragana "characters", including the two periods; no spaces are used in Japanese) in about two thirds the time I can enter "It's Curt. Where are you?" (25 characters). And if they have my number in their address book (so they see my name), that whole message might be shortened to "dokoni" (3 hiragana; 13 button-presses due to particularly bad luck with there being two 'o'-row hiragana in it, at 5 presses each).
And yes, the larger displays (mine displays 16 chars/8 kanji by 6 lines of the e-mail text) combined with the much higher per-character information density of Japanese makes e-mail much more comfortable to read on a phone.
Now if only there were i-mode slashdot....
Re:What the...?? (Score:1)
Contradiction explanation attempted (Score:2)
Those two things are inextricably linked: techno idolatry ("toys") are a distraction, a way for people to soothe themselves, in the same way that a pacifier/dummy soothes a baby, by changing the focus of its attention. The more constrained a society is - whether it's Japan or the puritan-rooted U.S. - the more people turn to distractions, since their culture can't provide sufficient nurture for their spirits.
Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:1)
Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:1)
Inspiration from home (Score:2)
Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:1)
One reader? (Score:2)
In fact, Michael means the article posted by analytic at 4/4/01 7:47:21 PM entitled "William Gibson and the London-Tokyo connection".
To avoid /.ing this site, I've included the meat of analytic's response below:
Like Gibson, I always did feel that one of the most important sentiments that fuels British breakbeat is the sort of broadly orientalist subtext of British music in the twentieth century; not orientalist in the literal sense that it is directed specifically towards Asian culture, but rather in the sense that the British seem to have a hightened sensitivity towards and appreciation for the idea of the foreign. This foreign-ness, I think, ultimately reveals itself to the British as something new, valuable, and thus worthy of appropriation.
This disposition can be seen in Drum and Bass, which for so long aligned itself with American musical forms like jazz and hiphop, as well as with dub. Most recently, this tendency has become evident in UK Garage, which relies so heavily on the influence of US hiphop,R+B and Jamaican dancehall reggae. Strangely, I think, the xenophiliac impulse that drives so much British music to borrow from and expand upon American, West Indian, and Asian musics, in many cases manifests itself in American breakbeat audiences as a kind of anglophilia, an appreciation for the non-american aspects of breakbeat music.
Re:Symbiotic relationships.. (Score:1)
It's the only way to go, 1500lb and up.
Flamethrowers, Napalm, phosphorus, bring it on.
The only thing we'd draw the line on is artellery, no commercial ammo or weapons, but stuff like home-made harpoons would be cool.
No meat in the arena and no stands, this is tele-presence only, multiple big-screen views on simulcast to the home cites of the contestants.
It could work...
Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:2)
Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:2)
Anglo-Japanese Parallels (Score:2)
Japan- Had an island-wide feudal system of samurai.
England- Had an island-wide feudal system of knights.
Japan- Figurehead monarch, parliamentary gov't.
England- Figurehead monarch, parliamentary gov't.
Japan- Fondness for highly-structured tea ceremonies.
England- Fondness for highly-structured tea ceremonies.
Japan- Historically adversarily continental neighbors, from which the much of their culture is drawn.
England- Ditto.
Japan- Displaced native population. (The Ainu)
England- Displaced native population. (The Celts)
Japan- Passion for high-maintenance gardens.
England- Yup.
Japan- Militaristic (invasions of Korea and China come to mind).
England- Militaristic (invasions of France come to mind).
I know there were a few more, but I can't remember them at the moment.
Yes, perhaps I'm imposing similitudes where none exist, but what can ya do?
Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is (Score:1)
It's like a person who has done something they are not pound of, and they would more likely to say "the past is past, what do you want me to do, let's move on) Japan, in alot of asian countries' minds, hasn't fully apology, take responsibility to what they did during wwII. Of cause they are more likely to look ahead.
Now I'm not saying this because I'm a cantonese, I really don't care if japan never apologize for what they did and feel guilty for it, and japanese youth know little about the war crime and stuff. I come up with this theory cause I like to use human beghavior to explain a country. (I know how many jews were killed by hitler in wwII, how many of you
Ok... (Score:1)
Mr. Gibson is good at writing a lot of words without saying anything but "I have a fantastic vocabulary" and "I am extremely well-educated."
I think his Wired piece on Singapore ("Disneyland with the Death Penalty") was a lot better than this one. This one has no real meat to it. Either he has no idea what he's talking about, or he does, but is too lazy to share with us.
You're misquoting the lyrics. (Score:2)
Also, Shogun, while a great read and written by someone who really loved Japanese culture, was still written by... an Englishman. It's not exactly a reference work on Japanese culture.
Re:Mojo-Dojo (Score:2)
Well, you must live in another country than me then. Because most of the schools in Washington, Oregon, and California seem to have Japanese classes, as do the colleges and university.
And, since my son's taking Japanese and my brother taught German in Japan, I kind of think I might know what I'm talking about, Gaijin.
Re:Mojo-Dojo (Score:2)
Most of the population of the US lives West of the Mississippi. About 30 per cent of the entire US lives in California, Oregon, and Washington. So when I say rarely can one find a school that doesn't offer Japanese or another Asian language, I am talking about the parts of the US which are growing. The rest of the areas which are growing are learning Spanish.
Hence, Japanese is a fact of life, and a Japanese language game would have a wider market than you imagine and the humor is more translatable than those from the ossifying east may think.
We (as the Census will tell you) are the future. Ignore us at your own risk.
But what do the Japanese think of Americans? (Score:2)
Good point. From my friends who've been there I have to agree.
But an interesting opposing point is what do the Japanese think of us?
Everyone rides in huge convertables in the middle of the Nevada desert, like in Fear and Lothing in Las Vegas? Hanging around coffee shops all day long like in the TV show Friends? Living in large lots in suburbia?
I'm sure that they have somesort of counter-point to your views.
Not really the height of ALL technology now is it? (Score:5)
Yes, this is the country in which every girl has to have a portable phone, the newest CD single by a shitty boy band (ok, so that's not different), and the newest fashion trend the moment that they are announced in the magazines...
But this is also the country in which there are no full access ATMs, no Birth control (until last year) and no law against denying somone a promotion because they are a woman... (well, also not until last year)... The contradiction of the techno idolatry and the hedgemonc morality of the society amazes me.
Granted their fad driven economy is full of high tech gadgetry the likes of which would make any japanophilic geek drool, but the shortsightedness of the culture as a whole scares me... Ever seen how much trash is piled in the woods by their mountain expressways? Or stacks of ten year old cars that were crushed for being too old... (A friend of mine had a 1990 Honda CRX crushed because the road tax would have been too much. He had to pay $200 to get them to take it and it had 60K on the odometer). It seems like the technological climate in Japan is due mostly to high pressure advertising, high pressure to conform, and a lack of visible available alternatives.
Different, yes,
But THE future? I hope not.
Re:Inspiration from home (Score:1)
Become Japanese? No Thanks! (Score:2)
But from what I've been able to gather, specifically from Karel van Wolferen, it might be a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.
The essence of Japanese society is conformance. There are a great many constraints on individuals such as only being hired straight out of school. If you lose your job, you likely will not get anything anywhere near as good. Corporatism run wild.
Various "hobbies" are left as necessary outlets for individuality. And these become very interesting indeed. This attracts Gibson, but I look to the causes.
William Gibson as Leo Buscaglia (Score:1)
OK, Bill turns "touchy-feely" and wants hugs and understanding with the Japanese. He is fascinated with non-techy things about their culture.
Big whoop. Call me when you have something to say.
Japan's present seems a bit like America's past (Score:5)
I suspect, however, that, in their 140-year leap from virtual feudalism to modernity, not all has progressed at the same rate, and the technological effects on society are playing out in ways that have already shaped Western society.
It's only been in the past 30 years that Japan has been a truly affluent society. So the concerns of a society that has grown comfortable with widespread wealth are just beginning--there's a feeling, reinforced by the collapse of the Bubble Economy, that without hard work to maintain it, prosperity could vanish as quickly as it arrived. So the Western concerns with social equality, environmental protection, the extremely marginal dangers of new technology haven't set in yet.
In short, there's still a lot of the 1950's-era Europe and America in Japan. The benefits of technology are still much clearer than their downsides, and a workaholic, traditional culture still lingers. If, in the 50's or even the 20's, America had the same level of technology the Japanese do today there would undoubtedly be Mobil Girls, robot bars, and the like.
But don't forget the downside to this progress: Japan is not a tranquil, natural place for reflection that NPR and yuppie magazines sell to Americans: it is a chaotic place where almost all buildable land has been built upon and parks are sadly rare but extremely welcome escapes from the unrelieved concrete and cacophony of the city. Women have a distinctly second-class place: female CEO's aren't a rarity, they just don't happen. Cutting off land from business development is similarly rare, and the salaryman still comes to work at 7 or 8 and leaves at 10 to drink with the boss until 1 and expects to do this for one company his entire life.
So yes, consumer technology is a few minutes into the future, but Japanese society isn't necessarily "ahead", if such a concept even applies. But Western society would be better off for examining the Japanese to see what we've lost: the confidence that technology can still improve your life and is sometimes worth the cost.
On: one company for life (Score:1)
Just a data point for you.
Re:Anglo-Japanese Parallels (Score:2)
Japan - "Cool girls": Snotty, preppy uniformed schoolgirls. England - "Sloan Rangers": Snotty, preppy uniformed schoolgirls.
Japan: All your base are belong to us
England: Right about now the funk soul brother / check it out now, the funk soul brother
Japan - Food that seems strange at first, but is actually delicious once you try it. England - Uh...
Re:Neuromancer (Score:2)
I think it's the other way around: there's a passage in Diamond Age that implies that Nell's teacher at the Victorian school (Miss Matheson) is none other than YT from Snow Crash (see page 320-21 of the Diamond Age paperback).
k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
Re:Not quite up to speed (Score:1)
Re:Not quite up to speed (Score:1)
Not the Future.....please.... (Score:1)
I don't have the Japan-knowledge creds of others saying this, but even the most cursory knowledge of the island argues against it.
Skip that they are a "feudal" culture of loyalty to The Company, with a near-permanent ruling party, etc ... that stuff can change. They've made bigger changes. (Playing catch-up to make them...hardly "clicks down the road".)
No, let's look at deeply-held cultural traits that aren't about to go away. They are genetically and culturally homogenous. Differences from the mainstream are not well-liked. Foreigners are not popular.
By the way, in this, they are NOT like England, which is an often-conquered mish-mash of natives, North Europeans, Norman French, and a Roman gene or twelve. (And the English language reflects it.)
And "The Future" is surely one of increasing diversity and inter-mingling. The plummeting cost of travel and the advantages of trade demand it.
If Japan even joins that future, much less makes it, they'll have to radically change deeply-held attitudes to do so.
Re:Become Japanese? No Thanks! (Score:1)
not as profound as he thinks (Score:1)
Techno-shock happens all the time, in many small ways. How many senior citizens in our country are cut off from the cultural upheaval that is the Internet?
Techno-shock on a society-wide scale also is not that rare or even unusual, when viewed in the full scope of history. Most of the Middle-East went through a similar upheaval in the 20th century, caused by the rise in prominence of oil as a major natural resource. Of course, fundamentalism and xenophobia were the result there, but the transformation was at least as traumatic as Japan's and perhaps more so.
In post war Japan citizens were flogged to consume the products of Japanese industry. The electronics industry was identified early on as an area that Japanese wanted to become proficient at. This consumerism conditioning has a lot more to do with the Japanese' current preoccupation with buying lots of seemingly useless gadgets. (In fact, post war excesses in all of the combatant nations have led to many facts of life that are taken for granted in those societies - e.g. suburbanization of U.S. cities)
If Gibson wants to impress us with his "deep thinking" hes going to have to come up with something better than school girls sending text pages to each other. (my 15 year old sister might find it odd that he thinks that only happens in Japan - she carries around one of those iMac colored Nokias)
On a slightly more pedantic note, I found Gibsons numerous mis-spellings and the stupid 2 inch column layout to be extremely annoying for someone who is a published author.
Yakuza and Sony and DoCoMo and Anime (Score:2)
Something to remember... (Score:1)
However, I think it is important for people to remember that William Gibson is a novelist. He's a writer of fiction, not a journalist. He makes his trade by writing things that will evoke certain thoughts or feelings in his readership.
So, of course, his view of Japanese culture is going to be highly romanticized. He will cite events and reveal opinions in a manner that totally supports his main idea or theme, whether or not it is factually accurate or considers all other perspectives.
Just remember, he's a novelist, not a journalist. If you want objective journalism, you have to look to someone or something that represents the ideals of journalistic integrity. I mean, why do you think I read
Ultimate Early Adapters or Adopters? (Score:1)
Japan, the other side (Score:1)
What does it mean to "live in the future"? If you were a Roman in 100 A.D., do you want to live in the future year of 500 A.D.? I don't think so. I felt that the author takes on optimistic American attitude that "future is always a good thing" and the argument is pretty weak.
Haiku and tea ceremony and sushi are well liked for good reasons, but if world regard txt msging and robo-dog as the same level with Haiku, I would be worried about another upcoming "neo-medival age", an age of human without a soul.
The article raised an interesting point of comparing Japan with England, and other people went further comparing China to the European continent. Both Japan and England (Britian in general) went through relatively peaceful transition from medival to modern society and kept the monarch, and both culture are painfully rigid and full of rituals, while China and the Europe (France in particluar) went through bloody revolutions and social earthquakes to achieve the same thing, and people in both places value things like good food and tobacco smoking.
On the other hand, unlike to all nations mentioned above, Japan is a very exclusive society, their immmigration policy mirrors Denmark or Holland (a.k.a Never ever, not even think about it). In some cases 2rd generation Koreans born in Japan can not become a Japanese citizen. I find it strange that the author compare Tokyo to London, which is a very culturally diversed city. I'd say Hong Kong is more like London than any Japanese city ever would be (in decades to come). Case in point, I saw pakistainese in English movie, Hong Kong movie, but never in a Japanese movie.
Re:Female CEOs do exist (Score:1)
As a chinese arriving in US after my college, I am shocked to find out American women consider themself "not good with money managing". Asian women manage the finance because they are the ones do the shopping, not because they have more power.
Re:Mojo-Dojo (Score:1)
The west coast as a LOT more asian influence than the east, and that probably accounts for the different language course offerings.
Re:What The Future Will Consist of: (Score:1)
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Re:Yakuza and Sony and DoCoMo and Anime (Score:2)
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Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:2)
Do not believe the hype. This idea is being fed to you by companies who bought the idea just so they could unload it on Wall Street. Face it: when people want a Universal Turing Machine (computers are luxury devices, this has nothing to do with need), they want the whole package. They don't want a crippled product that's "good enough". Why is Dell more profitable than eMachines? Why aren't WebTVs filling the homes of the computer illiterate?
That's not to say that specialized devices won't fill the market, but they need to have a more clearly defined function, one that isn't better served by a computer. And they're not going to replace anything, just add to it.
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Re:Become Japanese? No Thanks! (Score:2)
Are you sure? [sing365.com]
The song, incidently, has nothing to do with Anime.
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Re:Neuromancer (Score:2)
Oooh, a new book (Score:1)
Very cool.
Japan's present seems a bit like Japan's past (Score:2)
Jap/Eng similarities (Score:4)
Japan and GB are similar because they were both strong island nations.
Both cultures developed a "we are the best" culture because they were relatively immune to being conquered, and didn't have external ideas forced upon them.
With no frontier, both produced a culture of politeness, and a system that tolerated eccentrics (but not radicals.)
Re:Interesting, but a Rant it is. (Score:1)
Perry was hardly doing so. His mission was to make Japan a refueling station for the states and to make Japan protect lost seaman He caused chaos by going into to the bay and made several (purposely) insulting gestures (i.e., He gave the Japanese white flags before negotians, telling officials they would need them for the coming war if they refused his demands).
He's also the major impetus behind the fall of the Shogunal goverment (the Bakufu) and the rise of ultra-nationalists supporting the the throne.
Also, in the classic Western way he believed he was bringing enlightenment to a backwards country.
"Friendship" is hardly the case.
Re:Become Japanese? No Thanks! (Score:1)
Most of Asia is like that - however, Japan is the only country advanced enough for it to matter to us.
Is it different? Yes. Is it automatically good or bad? That's an individual country.
Re:Mojo-Dojo (Score:2)
Correction. The Japanese learn English words very early. Because the classes are a required part of the cirriculum. But they don't learn much English grammar, and are almost never taught proper pronounciation. The "All your base are belong to us" thing is a perfect example of what happens when the translator is not a native speaker of the destination language. So-called "Japlish" (crazy mixed-up uses of English words) is another example of what this causes.
Because until recently, there weren't many classes offered, because there wasn't much interest compared to the much easier (for English speakers) big-four European languages (FIGS). And most of those that are offered are not much better than the English taught to Japanese, nor do they teach reading that would even qualify as a first-grade level (by not teaching any kanji, and often not even kana).
Now that anime is getting more popular, there is a reason to learn. You're simply not going to learn a language unless you have a lot of reading/listening material that doesn't put you to sleep. I took two semesters of Spanish in college (two semesters any language being required to graduate), and barely learned anything, despite being in central Texas where it's the second language. (Korean seems to be in third place.) Once I realized the only benefit I could get from learning Spanish was better TV news reports on NASA (I am not making this up), I gave up trying to learn any more.
At least when I finally made the decision to learn Japanese, all that poor Spanish became useful (the pronouncation is similar, and both have heavily conjugated verbs). Anyone who makes an effort to read lots of manga and watch lots of subtitled anime can pick up a decent command of the language in a year, and be reading like a (slow) fifth-grader after three or four years.
Which goes to show that most school language classes are worthless unless you want to learn, and unnecessary if you make an effort to learn. But you still spend a lot of money on books either way. ^_^
Re:Symbiotic relationships.. (Score:2)
Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is (Score:2)
It's not really a diatribe then.
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Re:Mojo-Dojo (Score:2)
"Cowboy Bebop" is not a translation, thats the actual name of the show, like "Dai Katana" was the name of a game here.
Rate me on Picture-rate.com [picture-rate.com]
Re:Not quite up to speed (Score:1)
Actually, "Otaku" literally refers to a person's house who is not a member of your group. The word got its connotations referring to people who were so obsessed with a specific thing that they never left home.
Gibon sees stereotypes. You don't have to. (Score:1)
As someone who has a foot firmly in both American and Japanese cultures (speak both languages, travel frequently between both nations, have extended family in both nations, etc.) I respectfully disagree with Gibson. To his defense, many non-Japanese sci-fi authors seem to have a love affair with stereotype of Japanese modern/popular culture.
I'll wager Gibson has never spent an extended amount of time in Japan (i.e. months or years on end.) He seems to have a stereotypical view of the facade of Japan, certainly not any meaningful insight into the Japanese people. If he were to spend time outside of the major metropolitan centers, he'd see that the "Mobile Gal," "Muji," and "otaku" are not anywhere near central to or representative of Japanese culture in any lasting or meaningful sense. These are all trends less than 5-10 years old (within one of the older cultures of the globe) and his focus on these particular aspects of Japanese popular culture shows his lack of understanding of the more central aspects of what it is to be Japanese.
Americans are much farther ahead than the Japanese with respect to our use of the web in general. PC ownership is MUCH lower in Japan than in other nations because many Japanese don't have the space for a PC in their homes and the national monopoly (NTT) on local phone calls makes getting online via dial-up prohibitively expensive. So while the Japanese are much farther ahead in the wireless space, the rest of the world is much farther ahead in the PC/Web space and I'd argue that's more important over the long run.
As a related issue- let me ask MeFi & Slashdot readers to name one piece of Japanese software, besides PlayStation games, which is used by people all over the globe. (Your Japanese car doesn't count either ;) Can't do it? That's because there is none. Japan's weakness in software development (vs America, Germany, Canada, Ireland, Israel or India) might be argued as central to their declining dominance of "high tech." One other thing to note is that the consumer "technologies" which Japan dominates in -i.e. mobile and gaming, are not platforms that are capable of the flexiblity and power of the PC. The personal computer is obviously capable of communications and entertainment but can also be used for business, education, art, science, and a myriad of other applications that cellphones and PlayStations can't. Even with the promise of 3G wireless or PS3, it is clear that those technologies alone will not help Japan significantly for the future.
Manufacturing quality is rising all across the globe and isn't the dominant differentiator it was 3 decades ago. Not to mention that the newest innovations never did come from Japanese companies. One slashdot poster recently noted that none of the best graphics accelerator chips are made in Japan (those are mainly Canadian!)
The rest of the world has "otaku" just like the Japanese- spend time on any non-general interest mailing list and you'll find that otaku-ness is certainly not only the domain of the Japanese. I think one reason otaku-ness has been connected to the Japanese is their love of things- their "materialism" (which isn't necessarily a negative characterization in this case.) One could easily argue that being an "otaku" is being slave to an extreme form of materialism, so consider that as part of the equation.
Muji [207.97.150.242] (which is a chain of stores that sell high quality products without brands) is merely the Japanese love of brands taken to one natural end- i.e. the brand without a brand. I love Muji as an idea and I think it's success in Japan is a positive sign that there are some who are moving away from the slavish deference to global brands (most obvious with women and fashion brands, but apropos across the spectrum of products) to a brand without a brand (which in itself is a brand nonetheless.)
Gibson's clearly only seeing what he wants to see in Japanese pop culture. Japanese culture, like many across the globe, is misunderstood and misrepresented by the dominant global media. It's easy to see only the glittering technology or the geishas or the sushi or the anime or whatever it is that the media and foreigners always gravitates towards. It's not so easy to look at the 10 year recession of the 1990's, the revolving door at the Prime Ministership, the non-reforms in the banking and education sectors which will hold back positive change for years to come. It's even harder to see the hidden aspects of Japan, the parts of the culture that aren't often open to foreigners and certainly aren't represented in the global media. (How many of you know the first thing about a Japanese tea ceremony?)
I urge you to reject the stereotypes and continually question the representation of Japan (or for that matter any culture not your own) that you see in the global media. You'll be far richer for it.
Gen
Re:A Londoner just back from Japan (Score:1)
But in fact, all that's happened is number of models to conform to has increased somewhat; the urge is still there (though probably less so than in the past).
Re:Yes and No . . . (Score:1)
Yup, you completely missed the point. PCs and wired connections are the internet today. Things like the Docomo i-Mode phones point to what the future of the internet will look like. A store about a bunch of pale
-Steve
Re:Gibon sees stereotypes. You don't have to. (Score:1)
PC ownership is MUCH lower in Japan than in other nations because many Japanese don't have the space for a PC in their homes
Well, you can blame Apple for not making a PowerPC followup to their Color Classic. Back in the day when the classic-format Macintosh was actually a fairly well powered machine, the Mac ruled Japan. Now that Apple no longer makes a compact Mac, and the Japanese see the alternatives, I think they are more inclined to sit this out. The Mac's Kanji support is still better than Windows' support for Kanji, although who knows if Kanjitalk exists in MacOS X. There are whole groups of people in Japan who are dedicated to hot-rodding Color Classics...here's a link to The Club For Creating The Strongest Color Classic [nifty.com], a place where Japanese computer geeks trade ideas for souping up Color Classics. And on the PC side there's always Sony's VAIO offerings, which seem to do a hell of a lot better in Japan than in the US.
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http://www.msgeek.org/
Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:1)
Another thing, which other people have mentioned (but bears repeating) is that Gibson made almost no mention of North America, and less of the US. He was writing for an english (um... paper? service? site?) and would have very different things to say were he writing for a site back home. Especially since "back home" means Vancouver. In fact, he says quite specifically that things are different:
What would be interesting would be a longer essay, talking about not only the english perspective on the Japanese, but the North American ones as well. Picture in-character monologues: someone from BAMA, someone from The Bridge, another person from London, and a Brit or Yank living in Osaka.Ooh... I'm excited... what a cool idea...
Oh, one last thing: There was a mention at the bottom of the article of an upcoming book called 'Pattern Recognition.' Anyone know where I can find out more?
You must be Jamaican, because Jamaican my t-bone i (Score:1)
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slashdot sucks (Score:1)
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Mojo-Dojo (Score:2)
I once read that it was still being determined if the quirky dialogues in the Zelda games were due to bad translation or Dan Olsen's (the guy who translates Japanese games for Nintendo) sense of humor.
The Japanese learn English fairly early. Americans rarely learn Japanese. Until better translations can occur, the best parody of the current state of the Japan-US union will be Mojo-Dojo from The Powerpuff Girls. In fact, the whole show parodies just about every Japanese animation convention imaginable.
Triangulation from '23 (Score:2)
Tech is morality-neutral, wouldn't you say? (Score:2)
But this is also the country in which there are no full access ATMs, no Birth control (until last year) and no law against denying somone a promotion because they are a woman... (well, also not until last year)... The contradiction of the techno idolatry and the hedgemonc morality of the society amazes me.
I don't contradict you on your stand regarding Japanese attitudes towards women, but I don't understand your last point. I don't see how the two contradict each other. Care to expand on your statement?
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Re:Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:2)
[First of all, I want to say that if you have a userid, you should have used it, because your post was the most reasoned and insightful response I've seen in a long time. Made for a nice change from the flames I often get from others.]
A high index of automobiles per capita is not a sign of technological advance, but exactly the opposite.
One of the few uncivilized things I (a foreigner) have found in America is the total dependence on cars, which is directly linked to pathetically uneffective mass transit systems.
You're right, but I think that's more of a social difference than a technological one.
Your post (plus some more thought) has changed my position a bit. I started by accusing William Gibson of oversimplifying things when he said Japan is ahead of the rest of the world; I said Japan is not ahead in all ways. Now, I realize that that was also an oversimplification.
The actual level of technology may be higher in Japan. After all, tons of innovation happens there (sure, you may say that it happens in the U.S. first and Japan just adopts it, but I don't care what you say, tons of innovation happens in Japan, too). However, the adoption of that technology is following a completely different pattern than in North America. I'm no longer sure if it's more, or less advanced.
Why does Gibson think it's more advanced in Japan? Maybe it's a grass-is-greener thing.
And to all those who corrected me on the computer chip gaffe, thanks for not flaming. I would have realized my mistake myself if I'd thought about it, but I was rushed. It's an unfortunate thing that on Slashdot, if you don't post quickly, you don't get read. :-(
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Not all (common) tech is ahead in Japan (Score:4)
First, some credentials. I am of Japanese descent, and although I make my home in Canada, most of my family is still in Japan, and I've visited Japan at least a half dozen times.
Gibson makes the sweeping generalization that Japan is "several clicks down the time line" (and I'm sure he'll be first to admit that it's a simplified generalization), but I'd like to point out that there are some places where technology has made less inroads than in North America, at least for the common consumer.
Automobiles, for instance. You may scoff at that; after all, it was the Japanese car makers that gave American manufacturers a swift kick in the pants a few decades ago by exporting higher quality products for much less cost. But the per capita use of cars in Japan is far less than here in America. Here, it would be tough to imagine a 5-member family without a car. But it would be no surprise in suburbs of Tokyo or Osaka.
Now, admittedly, that's primarily because of the mind-bogglingly efficient train systems that are the envy of the world. But it goes to show that adoption of technology is not uniformly advanced in Japan.
Secondly, there is the technology that concerns us Slashdotters most: the personal computer. Adoption of the PC, E-mail, WWW, etc, were far behind in Japan. Game consoles have been common, but general purpose PCs have seen far slower acceptance. This might also seem bizarre, when the majority of the chips in our computers come from Japan (or Japanese companies). I think it has to do with language and culture.
In common households, you are most likely to see an ordinary refrigerator, a gas stove, two or three separate water heaters (one for the sink and one for the bathtub), a TV, radio, and maybe a game console if there's a young boy in the house. And oh, yes; one of those (in)famous fuzzy logic washing machines.
For regular folk, I don't think there's all that much difference between Japan and North America, technologically speaking. (Although I have to admit, those people who like gadgets really like their gadgets!)
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Re:Neuromancer (Score:2)
What The Future Will Consist of: (Score:3)
TV say Donuts are high in fat
Kazoo
Found a hobo in my room
It's Pricess Leia
The yodel of life
Give me my sweater back
Or I will play the guitar
Hyakugojyuuichi! [nbci.com]
Interesting, but a Rant it is. (Score:2)
The japanese adaptability is rooted in the obeyance of an old feudal system, which is certainly fraying a lot. Even as the Japanese have held a fascination and distrust of outsiders since Commodore Perry parked his ships off the entrance to Tokyo Bay and extending the velvet gloved fist of friendship and commerce to the Tokugawa shogun.
One thing about ordered societies, they don't last because in some way, they saddle someone with the cost. Even in these modern romanticized business-samurai times.
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What the...?? (Score:4)
Secondly, the article barely mentions America (other than a brief post-World War II period). It's about London and, secondarily, Vancouver. So all the comments about America's fascination with Japan, while interesting, show little relation to the actual article.
Gibson writes an article talking about the mutual fascination between the British and the Japanese. The American /. editors/readers then come along and assume he was talking about America instead?
________________
Re:But what do the Japanese think of Americans? (Score:2)
One only must look to anime for an answer. All facets of life can be found in anime, and by careful watching, we can find many interesting things, such as the fact that Japan seems to be plagued with monsters, or that all girls from outerspace will look human, pretty, be single, and will have a crush on the first male they'll meet. However, I'm getting sidetracked. GoofyBoy asks "But what do the Japanese think of Americans?"
From a careful study of anime, I must conclude that Americans are seen in a few different ways. Primarily, either we are large, loud, unpolite folks who tend to occupy the lower half of the intelligent curve, or we are sleazy criminals with no morals out to make a quick buck. Sometimes the stereotypes mix, as in the not-too-uncommon corperate CPO who is both fat, slow, and sleazy, and some anime have their own unique roles. In Gunsmith Cats we are portrayed as a bunch of gun-loving nuts with sloveny personal habits.
I'd think I'd complain about that last stereotype, but it seems kinda accurate. :)
lets trot out all the old stereotypes, shall we? (Score:2)
We're turning Japanese (Score:2)
I have long been a fan of Gibson and cyberpunk and even ran a cpunk MUD. In order to do the latter I learned what I could about Japanese culture, even reading stuff like Shogun which is set at the time England first stumbled across the island gem.
What I learned makes me agree with what Gibson says. The Japanese have an extrodinary ability to use another cultures advances as a template to make something really great (ie the car). They haven't in the past done much for the innovation side, but they are able to run with fresh ideas and churn out some neat stuff.
I think that Japan is a better setting than many Western cultures because as a westener I feel that was have a lot of angst as well as fear toward technology. A whole world of knowledge opened up to us with the advent of the public accessible web and right off the bat there are stampedes to regulate it. But, the Japanese are unfraid of what lies ahead and just keep running forward.
The Japanese have also had some really cool toys for awhile that we have only recently seen, for instance, the Izone camera from Polaroid. About 10 years ago the Japanese had a similar camera and over the years have made nearly credit card sized versions.
I do think that something was left out of the article, and that is that Gibson's first major novel, Neuromancer was published in 1984. This was the beginning of a Japanese fascination (though not always good) in America. Remember songs like "Eastern boys and Western girls" and "I'm turning Japanese" and "Kung-fu Fighting"? The cyberpunk genre came out of the 80's an embodies much about that time, including how influenctial Japan was on out society at the time.
So why Japan? Because while we stand around quibbling about if the future is safe for our children or not, they will doing some fantasic things that will bring us into a cyber era.
Re:Not really the height of ALL technology now is (Score:2)
But, even with all that being true, I think that missed the point. Why is Japan perfect for the cyberpunk genre? Because it is the technology and the fashion that we see and hear about. Because it is romantized for those things. Now, as a culture to model ours after, sure it falls short.
Just like we romantize knights in shining armor and the chilvary of the medieval era without taking a good look at historical documention about the role of farmers under fuedal lords, and the visciousness of the battles, and the unsanitary way they lived. But it makes for great stories!
Same with Japan and the cyberpunk genre, it may not be all it's cracked up to be, but it sure makes a great story!
Untechnologically.. (Score:2)
I should point out that the West has had a love affair with Japanese art and culture predating our identification of the Japanese with all things futuristic and technological. The beat poets were highly interested in Zen bhuddism as were a lot of minimal artists at the 60's.
Minimal Japanese art was a big influence of the style of French art, like art nouveau and expressionism. Perhaps this is because the avante garde of Western culture (be it culturally obsessed nerds like Gibson, or bohemian artists) constantly look for a way to overthrow the Victorian-era Christian systems of values and behaviour that are prevalent in the west.
Hence, we see them as futuristic because everything that has been modern about our culture for the past century has often been influenced by Japan. And everything modern about their culture has been influenced by us.