EU To Investigate DVD pricing 257
traffosky writes: "At
this address, the BBC says that the EU's competition commissioner,
Mario Monti, is about to lauch an investigation into DVD pricing policies on the European side of the Atlantic. He is unhappy with the fact that EU consumers pay about 25% more than their US counterparts. He will also be asking Hollywood about the regional coding system. I'm not sure if the BBC 'get it' yet, though: they filed this story under "Entertainment: Film"." Perhaps this zoning thing will draw even more deserved scrutiny -- as it already has from a UK supermarket chain and from the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) down under.
they need to investigate this (Score:1)
Some things [wolfe.net] just ain't right!
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:1)
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
$1 - to make the physical and Cd and jewel case.
$1 - artwork (booklet and tray card)
let's add 50 cents just to make it $2.50 to cover freight and all the other misc costs (mechanical royalties, shrink wrap, stickers, catalog insert, etc.).
ok, now we have a physical disc.
most stores mark up product about 50 percent right, so if a CD sells for $15 in the store, let's say they bought it for $7.50. but usually the stores buy from distributors, not the label, and let's say the distributor marks up 15-20%, so let's say the label sells it to the distributor for $6. minus the $2.50, we have $3.50.
at our label, we split the profits 50-50 with the artist, so that leaves us with $1.75 "profit" on a CD sold at $15 in stores.
that $1.75 has to make up the cost of making promo CD's, sending CD's to magazines and radio stations, placing ads, making phone class, paying employees, paying rent, etc. How can we possibly lower the price? unless you have a HUGE hit, or you keep losts really low, you can't even make money.
and unless the band sells the label the publishing rights, the labels sees nothing of radio airplay.
sorry if that was jumbled, but i'm tired, and this kinda thing really annoys me. do you honestly believe that record labels make like $14 off a CD sale. Well, Warner Bros. might because they own the manufacturer and the distributor and don't pay their bands crap.
Re:Region coding (Score:2)
This does not require region coding. Paramount and Fox could just as easily have the same contract without region coding. The only difference is that people would be able to transport Paramount's version into Fox's turf, and vice versa; thus creating competition.
Region coding exists to circumvent free-trade treaties, and thus to enforce selective pricing in various markets.
Re:pricing and demand (Score:2)
Power to the people.
Re:'Friad Not (Score:2)
Re:Logical Extension (Score:3)
That part isn't the problem -- if you want cheap gas you can drive a little farther to get it, and the market dictates that those prices will be set at exactly the point where profit is (locally) optimized. As long as the consumer has the ability to make that drive over to the next town (within reason), the marketplace works more or less as it should.
The problem with the region coding limitations is that they place an artificial restraint on market forces -- making it nominally impractical, for example, for someone to import a crate of DVDs from, say, India, and resell them in the U.S., even though the numbers might otherwise work out profitably (i.e. net profits more than cover the costs of importing and order processing). I have seen various posts suggesting a lawsuit against the movie industry for exactly this restraint of trade, but to my knowledge no one has taken any specific action yet.
As to your well-taken point about the evils of a fully encrypted end-to-end path, with users forced to buy "trusted client" machines, well, that is a different (albeit equally serious) problem altogether.
Region coding (Score:5)
For example, the movie Titanic was distributed by Paramount in the US only, and Fox got the rights to sell it elsewhere. To sell the same exact disc everywhere, both Paramount and Fox would have to agree on the disc features, extra footage copyrights, packaging, etc. Whereas if Paramount had one version, they wouldn't need Fox's approval. Compromise across corporate boundaries is often VERY difficult to broker.
This brokering would lead to serious delays in releasing of the disc globally. And actually might cost more to develop in the long run.
Tom
Re:Zoning isn't all bad (Score:3)
The zoning scam has nothing going for it. These aren't complaints that places outside the States pay less, but that they pay more.
But that leaves out the worst things about zoning. Try moving to Region 4. Then try buying movies. Say, oh, The Piano, The Dark Crystal, and The Princess Bride.
You can't. In fact, you can't buy them outside North America. Like those movies? Want to pay for them? Too bad, fuck you. You can't have 'em. I'm in New Zealand, and I can't buy The Piano, even though it was filmed in New Zealand, written by a New Zealander, directed by a New Zealander, and starred New Zealanders in leading roles.
There are literally *thousands* of movies that *cannot* be purchased outside of the US on DVD. There are hundreds more that are grossly cut back - sans commentaries, documentaries, interviews, you name it, even though they cost *more* than the same DVD bought in and shipped from the US.
Re:Um.. (Score:3)
You know... he could swear up and down that he has no problem with that, and insist that they keep charging him $95, and it still won't make it inherently right. It would only illustrate who he sides with.
You will _not_ necessarily get a economic-libertarian-randroid type to acknowledge they're being unreasonable by throwing extreme cases at 'em. They will simply annoy you by fanatically insisting that they don't have any rights to fairness either, and that if they WANTED to, they could become the MPAA too (presumably by working through weekends and holidays! o_O ).
The only real argument you have is the argument that going with the most utterly pure form of free-market laissez-faire is NOT beneficial to society- that it goes out of balance. There's tons of evidence for this (sometimes softened by the vestiges of regulation and control, like with the California power grid), but you're not dealing with someone who places a value on society, typically you're dealing with someone whose only concern is 'can I be one of the winners?'.
If that's what you're up against, you can't win the argument, and you just have to over-rule them and shut them up. Talking of fairness only makes sense in a context where there is a society to be protected, and not everybody wishes society to exist. Some people want no rules and the death of the weak... which is a recipe for species extinction as the species charges into a local maximum, kills off all its diversity, and then croaks when conditions change and the finely optimised uber-people can no longer adapt because they're too inbred to what worked _last_ century.
Yes, this is an unusual way to look at it- your point?
And, _through_ looking at it that way, the reason they can't charge whatever the fuck they want is because it's bad for society for the biggest ass-kickers to be TOO efficient. We already have a somewhat limited set of choices for entertainment in the sense of 'movies to watch'. You're not gonna see big variety at your local movie house. The discriminatory pricing is only _part_ of a _pattern_ that also involves squeezing out other choices and dominating the public awareness completely. The more money they have to do that, the better they'll do it. Give them less money, they will be less able to do it- and that becomes a social good, allowing more options to arise over the long term, and take over from the MPAA if they really start to produce sucky products.
THAT is why they can't charge whatever they want. Not because they couldn't get away with it- because they could, and are, and in so doing they finance ever more expansion, past what is socially useful.
Of course, the EU just wants to get its DVDs cheaper ;) but this is why they should be _allowed_ to when the MPAA can successfully pull off cartel/monopoly pricing.
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Presumably people are paying it, hence they think the CD is worth at least that much money.
Isn't the RIAA upset now because a whole bunch of people don't seem to want to pay it anymore?
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Which would imply either that prices could be lowered significantly for CDs and the Labels would still turn a profit, or that they're selling tapes at a loss, which makes no sense.
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Note that in many cases these CD's are pressed and packaged locally. Imports are flagged as such and typically sold for upwards of 20.
The artists typically see only about 10% of the gross price -- the rest is divvied up along the supply chain, with the lion's share going to the record companies.
If you haven't already read it, read Courtney Love does the math [salon.com] on Salon, where she explains precisely where the money goes ...
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
I'd prefer to be able to pay US prices!
'Friad Not (Score:2)
The reason they *say* they want region coding is to reduce cost(!). If they release a film on the same day world-wide, it costs more and takes much more organisation that doing one region at a time. With region coding, they can release the DVD in the states at the same time as they release the film to theatres in the UK without allowing DVD sales to encroach on ticket sales.
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Most CDs I buy are around $12-13, I've purchased a few new releases there for $10.
I honestly don't think Best Buy cared about that lawsuit. It dealt with the record labels forcing fixed prices or failing to provide advertising money to the stores.
I rather doubt you'll ever seen prices of CDs go down from where they are today. But you can keep hoping, I guess.
Re:Um.. (Score:2)
Stop trying to say this is some Communist plot to steal movies. In reality it is the MPAA that is doing Communist/Socialist things, using government power to meddle with the free market. If it were not for government rules put into place due to the MPAA, DVD players from the USA would be imported and sold there, and disks from the USA would be imported and sold there, and region encoding would be useless.
I would agree that the repair required is to get rid of these trade barriers, not further regulations like "you must sell the disks for the same price as in the US". Such regulations always have bad side effects...
Re:Um.. (Score:2)
Truth is, the depression was caused by hundreds of factors. There is at least one in there for every possible political persuasion be able to say "they didn't do it my way, and that caused the depression!"
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:3)
Zoning is irrelevant (Score:5)
Hmm. On Friday Amazon (yeah, ok) delivered five DVDs to me at work.
I live/work in the UK, which is in region 2. All five discs were region 1.
Better yet, they are all the new improved "wont work on regionless players" region 1.
Y'know what? I stuck them in my DVD player on Saturday, and they all work fine. And that DVD player can also play all the region 2 discs I own.
So I'm a little confused by the zoning thing. As far as I can tell, its main purpose is to give me more choice of which DVD I want to buy - the overpriced region 2 disc with minimal extras, or the region 1 Criterion Collection version with four commentaries, outtakes, storyboards, etc. Don't forget the other regions (also playable on my player).
Since I haven't had my player modified - even by the company I purchased it from - but use only its core built-in technologies, and since the player costs about half of a decent video player, anybody that gets caught by regionalisation either doesn't care or is too daft to know. And most people in the UK are not too daft..
~Cederic
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:3)
This is the infamous "Hollywood accounting", a branch of applied mathematics that enables movie studios and record companies to sell a product to every carbon based life form in the universe, and still claim that they haven't made a profit, and don't have to pay money to people whose contracts entitle them to a percentage of the net profits.
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
You sure could have fooled me [nytimes.com]. I still see VHS movies come out new for $25--and that's not even mentioning the practice of "pricing for rental"--selling VHS tapes at $60-100 or more for the rental market for a couple of months before dropping their price for consumers. DVDs haven't been priced for rental so far, though some of the studios are making noises about it.
It's all in what you're willing to pay, I suppose. For me, $20 for a movie I really like is a worthwhile investment.
--
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
People keep whining, "Oh, but it only cost pennies to make it!" as if they feel they should only be paying a few more pennies to buy it. Pressing a disk is not all that's involved in making it. There are more costs, and plenty of them. And even with those, studios have done a bang-up job keeping DVD prices low. It's purely amazing how many DVDs you can buy for under $15 these days, and just look at all the extra stuff you get when you buy a $25 DVD instead of a $25 VHS, even not counting picture quality.
And yes, it's true that you can get Hong Kong DVDs from the source [hivizone.com] for much cheaper than American movies--only $5 a disc plus shipping in many cases--but the economic environment is different over there, the incidental costs are often lower, and the $5 discs are usually second or third releases of titles that were more expensive originally.
I'm not arguing that prices couldn't be cheaper--they could always be at least a little cheaper. But to expect to be able to get a newly-released DVD for less than $15-20 is a pipe dream.
--
Re:Just my my 2 cents. (Score:2)
I've said it before--I'll say it again. A boycott is going to have no other effect than to gratify your ego at the cost of missing out on all the movies the rest of geekdom are enjoying. The MPAA and movie studios aren't missing your money. They're not going to go bankrupt because you aren't buying anything from them. You would need to get a heck of a lot more people to join you in your boycott even to be noticeable over all the people who haven't yet gotten around to getting DVD, but plan to sooner or later. And in a world where only twenty people show up [linuxtoday.com] to a much-publicized anti-DMCA protest in Washington, and where DVDs and players are being bought so fast they've become one of the fastest-growing consumer technologies ever--I just don't see that happening.
If you want to make a difference, then do something active. Donate to the EFF, write letters, tell people about the evils of region-locking and CSS (if you can explain it in terms that keep them from staring glassy-eyed at you--it's harder than it sounds). And by all means, boycott, if you don't want your money going to the MPAA. It's your money, do what you want with it. But don't you even try to present that as the overall solution. Boycotts rarely work; boycotts of popular products by a handful of people don't do very much. (I'm "boycotting" Pearl Harbor--not out of moral principles or anything, but because it looks like a really bad movie. Somehow, I don't think that's doing very much good.)
If region-encoding is going to fall, it's going to fall not because of an American geek boycott, it's going to happen because of the efforts of governments and commissions in places like Britain and Australia that are starting to get fed up by being ghettoized by the trade-restraining system imposed on them by the corporations. In the stories /.'s run over the last week or so, I can see that starting to happen. The boulder is wobbling on its perch, and sooner or later it will start rolling downhill.
--
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:3)
CDs first appeared on the market in 1983, and since then, the Consumer Price Index (a US benchmark of inflation) has risen by two-thirds. If the price of a CD had kept pace with inflation, an album that cost $15 in 1983 would cost $25 now. So the real (inflation-adjusted) cost of a CD has come down.
--
Best way to get our voice heard ? (Score:3)
Incidentally, I would be interested to know what UK/ EU law has to say concerning fair use, DeCSS, obtaining or hacking your DVD player to be region free, and other DVD related issues. I know the Designs and Copyright Act 1988 may be relevant.
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
When I was in the UK the other day I walked in to what look like a good brand hi-fi & TV shop and was surprised that the shop offered a 'modified chip' standard - I didn't even have to the ask the guy.
Compared to video tapes (Score:3)
The same argument can be given to CDs as compared to tapes, since CDs work out to be $5 more than you cassette tape.
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Then you must be buying shit music!
I keep seeing this bandied about as if it legitimizes piracy/Napster use. Erm, how about being more selective? I don't run off to every single Hollywood crap fest, because most of the time they don't interest me. Similarily, I don't run off and buy every CD in the Top 10 because most of those don't interest me either!
I must point out here that I haven't listened to the radio in over 3 years, so most of the CD's that I buy these days are back catalogue. IMO, any album that's over 5 years old should immediately be discounted to $10!
Re:Um.. (Score:3)
And for the record, I do not own a DVD player (aside from the one my computer came with, which I have never used), nor any DVDs. Somehow, I have still managed to struggle through daily live without DVDs.
Re:Great depression (Score:2)
Then made it illegal to own gold bullion? (not repealed until 1974)
Re:Where are people meant to whine? (Score:2)
But tell them that if they buy a movie they'll be forced to sit through up to ten minutes of trailers because their player won't repond to the FF or SKIP keys. Explain how the stores won't take it back even though it's obviously defective.
Ask how many times they'll sit through a movie that forces them to wait through trailers for movies they don't want.
That works! I've turned quite a few people off of DVDs.
The same thing worked with divx, just explain how the player has a huge rebate, those companies must really want to sell them... why? Because you have to pay, every time you watch that movie. Want to skip to the end to play the credits, or watch a favorite scene? Gotta cough up again. And now, divx is dead.
You can explain these things to people. But ignore the 'freedom' and 'rights' arguments. Explain the forced watching of trailers, etc.
Re:zone protection exploits customers right (Score:3)
I actually totally disagree with your second point there. In fact, that's the main point that I can't see a defence for.
I can see an argument that They don't want people seeing movies on DVD before they're released in the cinema. I may not agree with it, but I can see a case. As for worldwide cinema releases, I don't think that's practical, but maybe that's just me.
What I can't see a defence for is releasing the same movie on DVD with different features in different regions. For example, if I get the region 2 version of Crouching Tiger (I'm in Ireland), it has the movie and nothing else (more or less). The region 1 and region 3 versions have extra interviews, commentaries, etc. This means I have a choice between a sub-standard copy, or an 'illegal' copy.
Incidentally, there are dvd players out there that get totally around RCE. They have several region modes: you can set them to a specific region or set them to auto-detect.
disclaimer: maybe I'm wrong about CTHD, but there are plenty of cases like this, so I don't need to be corrected, thanks.
Cheers,Noims
Re:Here's why: (Score:2)
Re:you prove my point (Score:2)
On the subject of the 'right' price for works of art, I wouldn't dare to have an opinion on that since I am not an economist but a law student. Economists do have such opinions however. An interesting economic analysis on the current state of intellectual property can be found here [www.cpb.nl]. If you read it carefully, you'll see that copyright is supposed to strike a balance, contrary to your absolute view on intellectual property and also contrary to the anti-intellectual stance which is so much en vogue here.
Re:you prove my point (Score:2)
Nonetheless, your subscription to the labour theory doesn't matter to the current copyright law, or droit d'auteur as it is called in civil law systems is based on the two I mentioned before, with copyright law having a slightly more utilitarian emphasis than the droit d'auteur. Patent law and trademark are strictly based on the utilitarian view.
I definitely don't want to shove down a certain view by referring to an academic paper. The reason I referred to it is to prove that the current view on copyright is based on those two theories and that an economic analysis proves that at times the prices for protected works are too high. That doesn't require you to accept any of my views, only to accept that your view is one-sided, or at least oriented to copyright law as it should be in your opinion, not to what it is right now.
Re:Make lots of $ (Score:2)
The DMCA give large publishers the power to erect licensing regimes on content players. Protected/encrypted media is just a hook to force manufacturers to sign a license. Don't like the licensing terms? Too bad for you, since RE'ing the protection would be illegal under the DMCA.
Macromedia'ed analog output, no digital output, region locks and no fast forward are not part of CSS, they are part of the DVDCCA license.
What is scary, is that this license can be kept secret from the general public. That is, they can force-feed us use control technology without disclosing the terms.
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:3)
Re:CD Prices ridiculous? (Score:2)
The problem is the record companies go beyond mere packaging to interfere with people's rights to use recording technology in whatever way they see fit. Examples are:
- the tax on blank media that already assumes you're doing unauthorised copying - whether you are or not
- the killing of DAT
- the CPRM initiative
Personally, I think CD prices are ridiculous. The problem is there is no alternative. As new technology emerged which promised efficient ways of distributing music, did the record companies embrace it? Of course not - they slapped it down with armies of lawyers. For the record, they still have yet to come up with an alternative. Reason: control. The CD is as equally friendly to control as all its predecessors.Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:3)
As for DVDs, many people in Europe are aware of region modified players. Basically every PAL player can play NTSC discs by default, and region modifications are easy (but often not very cheap) to get. For many people (like myself) the reason is not the price, it's the number of discs available. About one third of my collection is not available in Europe, though some discs are all-region.
Also, there are often significant differences between the different region versions of the same title. Some European discs have to give up some extras to get space for more audio tracks. Sometimes even the quality of video and audio can vary, though usually PAL video is superior to NTSC despite the slight speed difference.
In Finland most new full-priced DVDs cost around $20-$30, with some bargain titles being even $10 or less. A bit surprisingly, ordering new discs from Australia seems to be the cheapest option ($14-$18 including P&P), even cheaper than getting discs from the US. And many Australian discs are identical to European versions, even having two region codes (R2 and R4, Europe and Australia).
pricing and demand (Score:2)
DVD zoning sucks, of course, since it means you can't really buy DVD's from, let's say Amazon.com if you live in Europe but it's not like they put the zones there just to piss people off. There's a good reason for it and the Slashdot crowd that gets all music for free from Napster / Limewire / Gnutella / whatever and pirates movies with DivX is a good example of why the zones are there. They probably don't work too well since it's very easy to get a zone-free DVD player, but that's besides the point.
Ease isn't the only issue, though (Score:3)
Yes, you're right that downloading is easier and more efficient for you, but there's something you forgot to mention (probably accidentally, I'm not accusing you of anything).
We need to remember to compensate the artists! Musician/actress Courtney Love in her Salon piece says WHAT is needed -- tips (even Robert Cringely has finally, slowly, gotten it) -- but she doesn't say HOW. I have a way to solve the how question, and cut out a lot of middlemen (who won't be happy losing their trips to Scores, etc. that Courtney mentions).
I know, I've said this over & over here on
JMR
The AFI's number 1 film is not on DVD in Region 1 (Score:2)
To give you an example of why any movie buff needs to crack regions:
Citizen Kane [imdb.com], one of the most honored films of all times, the AFI's number one film on their list, is not available on DVD in the US.
I bought my copy in the UK, and can't imagine a comprehensive film collection without this vitally important film. Why is every Adam Sandler film available on DVD in the US, and Orson Welles' masterpiece isn't?
I own 500 DVDs, and love the format, but I can't imagine not being able to play any DVD I wish. Region coding is indefensible.
Re:zone protection exploits customers right (Score:2)
Well, then, they have two and only two legitimate options: get it into the cinema earlier or release the DVD later.
/.
Re:Um.. (Score:2)
Inasmuch that the whole cartel arrangement depends upon novel notions of copyright law (extending it to cover restrictions on content access as well as content copying) enacted at the behest of industry lobbying, it is government price-fixing.
/.
Re:What the hell is so wrong with region coding? (Score:2)
This language implies that the studios have some sort of natural right to continue making profits using their existing business models, forever and ever, amen. They don't.
/.
Re:Well, er, duh, maybe it's cause of the f'ing ta (Score:2)
Re:Well, er, duh, maybe it's cause of the f'ing ta (Score:2)
Besides, making comparisions using current exchange rates is ridiculous. The pound is doing horrible against the dollar currently, which makes all the difference in the world. How about quoting how many hours an average worker in each country has to work to pay for a typical DVD. That would make far more sense...
What I don't understand is why there aren't more outcries about stuff that is far more substantial, like why computers in the U.K. are priced about on parity with U.S. computer prices where a buck and a quid are equal. That's gotta hurt a lot more than paying an extra bob or two on a DVD...
This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:5)
Re:2 points (Score:2)
You are right, a business without any customers no longer can afford to stay in business. But the problem is too many suck^H^H^H^Hconsumers continuing to buy something they think they "need."
Myself is a perfect example
I can see the same thing with people buying DVD's.
The root of the problem with "bad" corporations is ourselves. We need to continue active boycotting and show more people how to wake up from what is going on around them.
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Re:Um.. (Score:2)
Re:Um.. (Score:2)
Just keep the issue out there (Score:3)
One of these days enough common folks will know about the region coding that enough lawers and political reps will figure out that their hide will be thicker if they go after it. And until then, region-flexible players sound like the way to go.
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Basic econ:
Monopoly-level pricing doesn't set prices at a level where goods are a bad investment for everyone; if you set pricing that high you'd make nothing. Monopoly-level pricing is higher though, and results in less consumption, more profit for the monopoly, and less consumer surplus--overall, less economic productivity.
We should not be happy with prices that are just "good enough"; prices should by competitive markets, not industry associations.
Re:solution (Score:2)
Switzerland does that. If you can't buy access for it in Switzerland, you're entitled to break the protection. This applies to satellite TV, too, and third-party set-top box unlocking cards are sold openly and legally.
Conspiracy in restraint of trade. (Score:2)
Re:Um.. (Score:2)
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Re:The Solution! I have the Solution! (Score:2)
People have to be educated before boycotting will work.
There is a perception that because a DVD is better quality (than VHS), that it should therefore cost more. Pretty much the same argument that CDs had over LPs and cassettes. This is hogwash of course. A DVD weighs less, takes up half the volume, and the cost to manufacture (even considering mastering). This combination of the weight, volume and price makes floorspace selling DVDs four times more profitable than selling VHS. People should be aware of that. Add to that the regional encoding issue which, especially outside of the US artifically raises prices even more and it all comes down to one thing:
People are being ripped off.
Once that fact sinks in, I suspect consumers will boycott or certainly be more selective of which titles they buy. Prices will come down if that happens.
Just my my 2 cents. (Score:2)
Sony multi-region? never. (Score:2)
Re:The Solution! I have the Solution! (Score:4)
Only partially true. No-one bought DiVX when Circuit City launched it. Result - the format dies a death. Very few people bought laserdiscs. Result - Special Editions costing over $100 and even bare-bones discs at $40.
What you are saying is true to some extent, as I'm sure Paramount would drop their prices closer to some of the cheaper studios if they thought the numbers looked bad at their current price, but you are only getting your cheap discs in Walmart (or any discs in Walmart) because they are selling well.
In any case, the issue here is that discs in the EU are significantly more expensive than US discs. What the EU are probably concerned about is that Region Encoding is locking the average consumer into buying the expensive local disc, rather than importing a cheap US one. Naturally, the clued in just mod chip their players round the problem, but thats not a solution for everyone.
Pirating movies with DivX (Score:2)
You mean i can do that?
Better get up to date with my pirating skills - i need to feel that "i'm part of the gang" ...
How about other zoning practises? (Score:3)
Logical Extension (Score:5)
CSS Region coding is a tool used to "extract the customer surplus". You charge a price in a given market which is optimal for profits considering the number of units that will sell and the margin.
It is also the first step down a slippery slope. Its a tenative first step: right now the average person wont notice it, and will probably not even realize that it exists.
But if its accepted then it will fester. Pretty soon the price for a movie or a song will be set based upon which state you live in. Then by which city. Ultimatly they will charge each customer the most they are willing to pay.
We will each end up with "trusted" computers and electronics that use a "secure media path" all the way to the speakers and screen. Each individual will have to get their own copies, digitally signed to their account number and device id's. Of course when you buy a new Movie player youll have to buy your movies all over again- because the old ones will only play on your old player.
It wont be so bad, fairly well automated, all content downloaded online right into your player. $40 wont be too bad for a flick. And you dont really care that the rich guy down the street has to pay $400 for the same exact movie- thats his problem, right?
Is this where we want to end up?
Toothless (Score:2)
However, they had absolutely no powers to do anything about this...
I would imagine this is the same kind of thing. A load of people will be handsomely paid to sit on their arses for months, and finally say that, yes, we are being overcharged for DVDs, and yes, we are often getting an inferior product due to the regioning.
But they will have no powers to do anything, and like the US CD companies, the US DVD companies will go "So what?" and carry on regardless.
All this will do is keep a bunch of minor politicians in work for a while. It won't benefit anyone.
Incidentally, less than half of my DVDs are region 1. They're either stuff you can't actually get in region 2 at all, or couldn't get in region 2 for a long, long time after they came out in region 1, or in one case it was cheaper to buy the region 1 and have it shipped over than it was to go to the shop and buy it in region 2!
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Good point. But still, $15 is way too high.
---
DOOR!!
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:3)
What it all comes down to is this:
Customers treat a business the same way said business treats its customers. IOW, a business that treats its customers with respect will in turn be treated with respect by these same customers. Conversely, a business that treats its customers like crap will tend not to be treated so well by its customers.
This principle can easily be applied to the RIAA. One must not look far to see examples of the RIAA disrespecting its customers. Case in point: $15 CDs. Back when CDs came out, the RIAA promised that the only reason that they were so expensive was because of the new technology involved, and that they would soon become less expensive. Did this happen? No it didn't. So, in response to this and other RIAA actions, many of the RIAA's customers are becoming more and more pissed off with the RIAA. Just look at the proliferation of Napster-type music sharing services. Swapping music isn't all about getting free music; part of it involves compensating oneself for a perceived wrong committed by the recording industry.
And naturally, this principle can be applied to the motion picture industry as well. They say their intentions are good, but with such things as 1) going after anybody who even thinks about cracking CSS, 2) region coding, 3) Macrovision, 4) etc., their actions start to become suspicious at best. And the affected customers take action in response, proliferating DeCSS, swapping DVD rips, etc.
So why then is most of the public not concerned about the recent actions of the RIAA/MPAA? Simple. Because they don't know. Next time you go to the video store, ask the clerk...heck, ask the manager if they know what DeCSS is. Chances are you'll get a "no" in most cases. The public needs to be educated about things like this. Whether they'll care or not is a different story, but it would help a whole lot just to get the word out. The more people know about the actions of the entertainment industry, the better. And, the more people know, the more the entertainment industry will be likely to be willing to change its ways.
---
DOOR!!
Re:Make lots of $ (Score:2)
Re:Make lots of $ (Score:2)
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Why not quit your whining and stop buying CDs? You don't "deserve" anything at all, and if you let the CD companies bilk you, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Re:Zoning isn't all bad (Score:4)
But then, this analogy is flawed.
You see, a specific flight on a given route has a finite amount of space. If there are 300 seats for sale, it is just damn well impossible to stuff 350 people into a plane. (OK, theoretically it's possible, but you won't be in business very long).
This also applies when you combine the capacity of all given carriers. There is so-and-so much capacity for a given route and if there is a lot of (over-)capacity, this potentially drives prices down. That's the reason why you fly cheaper from Los Angeles to New Yourk, then from Hicksville to Muskogee. Even if it's 8 time the distance.
You also conveniently forget the restrictions attached to cheaper flight tickets. If I pay up to 5 times the price for a full fare business class ticket, that gives me the right to board or not board the booked flight at my convenience. I don't even have to call the airline to cancel and I can change my schedule at any time and at no charge.
Now, the more cheapo an airline ticket is, the more strings are attached: Minimum/maximum stay, Sunday stay-over, No refunds, schedules can not be changed, or changes carry a stiff penalty, etc.
What a business person needs is flexibility more then any thing else. Not only the flexibility to book four hours in advance, but also to change her plans at whim.
This is very different with medias. Be it software, music or motion pictures. Once you payed for the production and/or development costs, the cost of a copy is marginal.
Don't get me wrong; huge amounts where invested into those products and the production entities certainly have a right to make a fair profit on their investments.
They definitely don't have the right to exploit customers, based on rules and backed by laws which are convenient only to them.
Unless of course they can obtain the best politicians money can buy...
A letter from the MPAA (Score:3)
From: MPAA
Subject: W3 0wnz j00!
Dear European Union:
Now you have pissed us off, we have hired the l33t3st hax0rs in the world. We won't get rid of our regional codes; we have to make a profit and rape your wallets. Moreover, we have an obligation to eliminate -all- our competition from the face of the earth, and we will no matter what it takes. See, our goal is to take over the world, just like what we depict in Hollywood. I'm very sure though that we are the good guys in this one; after all, we are protecting our intelectual property.
Since you did send a letter from your competition department, we now see you as a threat to our existance. You fuckers are probably pirates, too! You and your open source coders like that Torvalds guy. We hate that; we refuse to lose a dime after all. We prefer ignorant americans just like ourselves buying into a system where we can rape wallets and pillage life savings; to protect our intelectual property.
Now you see where we are coming from. Expect that your piddly servers with your pirated content be DoS'ed soon by our scr|p7 k|dd|3s.
Regards,
The More Pathetic Assholes of America (MPAA)
P.S. -- And you thought we were the Motion Picture Association of America.
Subjects... (Score:5)
> they filed this story under "Entertainment:
> Film".
As opposed to "getting it" Slashdot, which
filed it under "Movies". Ummmm...
Chris Mattern
Perhaps.. (Score:2)
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Re:remember free trade? (Score:2)
Re:Zoning is irrelevant (Score:3)
BTW, Brits should be aware that the Canadian firm: DVD Box Office [dvdboxoffice.com] don't charge for shipping. So you can order them singly, get 'em quicker and pay less. Nice.
---------------------------
Re:Wonder how EU will take it? (Score:5)
Depends who is in charge though...
Germany: We demand equality and freedom for our citizens. Ban region codes.
French: Dirty Hollywood ruins our lovely film industry. Abolish region codes, and while we're at it, let's ban US films period. That should annoy the Americans and the British at the same time.
Netherlands: Whatever the opposite of what Germany wants.
British: America is our friend. They are very nice people. Let's do what they want. Another missile base, Mr Bush? Why of course! Treaties? Oh I'm sure nobody's really bothered about those old things. Plus, it'll really annoy the French. Let's make imports cheaper and compulsary
Italians: There were rules about this?
Eastern Europe (as one voice): There are non-pirated versions?
Spain: Yeah, whatever.
Switzerland: We're not in the EU.
So it really depends on which contries sit on the comittee, really. And am I the only person in the world that is worried about the fact that all Switzerland's neighbouring countries would describe them as "shy, quiet.. keep themselves to themselves.. seem like really nice, polite fellows, wouldn't hurt a fly". It's only a matter of time.
---------------------------
Pricing in Japan... (Score:3)
In Japan a "Pulp Fiction" DVD with Japanese subtitles is about $50... ow. Compared to the US where you can get them for $17. Hmmm... somehow I doubt the translator demands a 50% royalty. Of course you can get the Chinese version for $2 on the street. *wink* *wink*
Recently Warner Brothers has cut all their DVDs down to about $20 in Japan, about half the price of all the others... pretty crazy. So I am in the interesting situation of only being able to afford or justify purchasing DVDs which are from WB. If I want to watch with Japanese friends etc.
Re:DVD annoyances (Score:2)
but the availability of languages (even when all are using the same region code).
And that's my gripe. My family is Italian and we live in the US. My father never studied English. He can speak it, but often has difficulty understanding especially when someone speaks fast. He enjoys watching movies in Italian - that is when he can get his hands on it. Most DVDs from our local rental shop only have French and Spanish tracks on them. Cost is not the major issue - although he can't justify paying extreme markups to get the Italian equivalent of American movies.
Recently he purchased a bunch of DVDs directly from Italy. These were American movies dubbed in Italian. I had to rip the DVDs and convert them to VCD format so that he could watch his legally purchased DVDs. How annoying. He's considering buying a region free or a region selectable (better yet) DVD player. I just haven't found one that also has all the features of his current DVD player.
The MPAA would probably consider me a pirate (under the DMCA)for bypassing CSS to get around their region coding. Too bad for them - sue me. I wish the MPAA would get a clue and realize that the region coding annoys people.
CD Prices ridiculous? (Score:2)
Scott
Here's why: (Score:3)
Yes, its that simple. You will hear a great deal about social goods or justice or morality or how some price is "unreasonably high". It is nothing but an elaborate (often self) deception. The logic in the end is the same. They want what someone else has created. If they can't get it at the the price they want, this makes the owner evil.
It is very difficult to reason with such people. There is an almost reflexive connection between their wants/feelings and judgements about what is right or wrong. The thinking very much resembles that of the religious zealot or homophobe. For them, the unconfortable feeling they get when they think of such things is enough to provoke a judgement that such things are wrong. There is no reasoning that goes on.
Take the example of "unreasonable price." Just how is anyone supposed to determine logically what a reasonable price is? Is there some formula? No. "unreasonable price" is just a synonym for "I don't like the price" or "I feel the price it too high."
My favorite is when people invoke the idea of a "social good." Again, most of the time, "social good" is just a synonym for "my good." In the end, they really mean "less good for them, more good for me." Really, how could it mean anything else? Values are ultimately subjective. How can anyone be in a position to determine objectively what is a "social good"? People who invoke the term "social good" really have no choice but to use their own values in deciding what is a social good and what isn't. For me, allowing people to charge what they what for what they make on the priciple that they are not slaves to society is a "social good." Others think this is incorrect. How can we decide objectively who is right? We can't. In the end issues of right and wrong come down to subjective judgement and personal value systems. I just wish people would be honest with me and themselves about where their own ideas of right and wrong come from and not hide behind elaborate abstractions like "social good."
We can discuss how it is we can get what we each want. Some will conclude that giving people the right to charge what they wish for what they create, in the end, will provide most of us with what we want. Other's will conclude that outright theft is the easiest way. Others will be somewhere in between. Its starts with people being honest with themselves.
So, the answer to the question is:
People can't charge what they want because other people don't like it. They are even willing to get violent about it (they hide behind the abstrations "illegal" and "law" and get professional thugs called "police" who have guns and batons to do their dirty work).
Make lots of $ (Score:3)
Front panel region selection
No macrovision
Disc script ignoring
Lock-out ignoring
Decent quality
The script and lock-out things are necessary because some (most?) DVD's have annoying "splash" scenes that play when you pick options. Or the scripts verify regions. Also many movies don't let you fast forward (FCC warnings), pause, rewind, etc.!!
Two faced corporations (Score:2)
This is where it shows corporations are two-faced and hypocritical. One one hand they preach the virtues of globalisation, the free movement of resources that become their inputs. The free movement of products that become their revenue stream. However, they dont want consumers to experience the good parts of globalisation. Consumers should not be allowed to be segregated into different markets so these film companies can charge higher prices. This is where the WTO should step in since it is clearly a limit to globalisation, of course the WTO represents who now?
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Anyway, for the sake of argument... the comparison with CPUs is flawed. The manufacturing plants capable of making CPUs run to the hundreds of billions of dollars; CD presses are trivial in comparison. Also, the engineering expertise is incredible, whereas with a CD you follow the cookbook formula.
IBM, Intel, AMD, and others could make money even if all intellectual property ceased existing tomorrow. They own huge industrial complexes in multiple countries, and they make the stuff that people need. In any case, you need a college education just to understand what's going on in computer engineering, which is not cheap.
Recording industry companies would be hard pressed to survive if piracy was legalized. The companies, well aware of this, buy all the legislators they can and hope for the best.
Re:Um.. (Score:2)
I must be missing something, someone tell me why they can't charge whatever the fuck they want for their product.
Because we can.
Best Rgds,
Chief Bonehead of MPAA
zone protection exploits customers right (Score:5)
- Don't price up outragously in some regions
- Make some regional specific stuffs, e.g. european languages version, so that customers would prefer to buy they own regional version
In the past they'd focus on customers' satisfaction, now they find legal ways to restrict customers from making their own purchase preferences - with Government consent. That's sad.
Re:Um.. (Score:3)
"
I see this issue differently. Let the MPAA sell DVD's at whatever price they wish to, wherever they wish to. BUT, the consumer should have the right to buy his DVD's anwyhere he wishes. That means, if they are selling them for $15 in Indiana, he should be able to buy them over the net for that anywhere else in the world.
This is NOT a case of a government wanting to tell business what they can charge. It's a government questioning a system that enforces a supply monopoly that lets a cartel set prices, not the market.
For instance, if DVD sellers in the UK have to comptete with Americnan Internet mail order houses, you bet the prices will go down. Either because the retailers lower them or else the retailers DEMAND lower prices from the MPAA to compete.
It is this competition the MPAA's region scheme is there to prevent. It would be hard for the MPAA to argue that they can't afford to sell a DVD for less than $30 one place when they sell it for $15 another place.
That is how the free market works. Command markets, whether run by communist/fascist government, or by coprporate cartels, are BAD for the consumer and should be fought.
Re:What the hell is so wrong with region coding? (Score:3)
Last time I checked senior executives of large multinationals engaged in criminal conspiracies told lies to avoid prosecution.
The fact is that most of the material out on DVD and zone encoded is from the back catalogue. New movie releases are only a small fraction of the DVDs that are on sale.
The only possible explanation for the zone system is to allow differential pricing, to allow the studios to charge more in one zone than in another. That is illegal and there is no reason that the EU should not fine the studios a few billion dollars apiece.
Re:Toothless (Score:3)
Oh really, tell that to IBM. After the Reagan administration dropped the anti-trust case against them (large campaign contributions) the EU went ahead and fined them over a billion dollars - the largest corporate fine in history at the time.
The Commission can bring proceedings against the studios in the European court, the judgement can be enforced in any EU member state.
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Re:This would be good for CD's in the states (Score:2)
Not if the Chinese bootlegs are ripped from a US DVD.
Monopolies (Score:2)
Essentially, the record companies have a monopoly on each of their artists. If there were a working market - in theory - a price will be reached, that gives the greatest total benefit for both the consumer and the enterprises. In a monopoly situation, the price will produce the greatest benefit to the company holding the monopoly.
Even if they are luxury items CDs should be priced so that the total benefit is greatest.
And this means that record companies should be watched closely.
By the way, is anyone examining territorial lockouts for video games?
DVD annoyances (Score:5)
entertainment companies are treating their
customers is sort of annoying. I'm a German
citizen, my wife is Italian and we both talk
English very well. If I go to buy a DVD in Germany
it often happens that the soundtrack is only
German. If we buy DVD in Italy the soundtrack
is usually Italian and sometimes also English.
The most annoying thing so far was "Terminator 2"
which has an English soundtrack, but with
italian subtitles that can't be turned off.
Do the entertainment firms think that the
customer is so stupid that he really needs
subtitles. If I use the original soundtrack,
then I do it for a reason of course and if I
would like to have subtitles in my native
language I would turn them off. But forcing
you to do it in a way you don't want to do
is really annoying. Customers are treated like
kids in the kindergarten.
Well, at least my problem with DVD is not the
price (that is pretty high of course) but the
availability of languages (even when all are
using the same region code).
Re:Logical Extension (Score:3)
Hey, this could be an OK deal. Let's say the distributor's advanced customer profiling pinpoints the movies I hate so much that they would have to pay me to watch. (Should be easy, since most current movies fall into this category.)
All I need to do is order up a boatload of these, then I can kick back and pull in some serious coinage from these bozos.
Re:Here's why: (Score:2)
A free market, where everyone charges what they can, is a good thing, but whats happening here is a company giving discounts to a group of people because of their nationality, which is simply not on.
to all those whining about CD & DVD prices (Score:2)
solution (Score:2)
for the eu would be to open up trade in
"modchips" for dvd players. That way the
consumers can pull out macrovision while
they're at it and the studios would really
be at a loss.
So they could just threaten to do that, :o)
really...