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LinuxToday Astroturfed By Its Own Staff? 95

Posted by CmdrTaco from the rumors-and-such dept.
Not sure if this is funny or just interesting, but apparently Kevin Reichard, the "Executive Editor of the Linux/Open Source & Internet Technology Channels at internet.com" has been accused of astroturfing LinuxToday. Astroturfing is pretending to be a bunch of people to fake grassroots support, and LinuxToday is one of the larger Linux news sites. And obviously this is a rumor. Pretty interesting to read some of the stuff that was said.
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LinuxToday Astroturfed By Its Own Staff? More

LinuxToday Astroturfed By Its Own Staff?

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  • ... posted to LT everyday, I don't see how Astroturfing by one staff member could really make a difference.

    From the article, it sounds like there was an astroturf post a couple times a month. eh? What's the big deal? And do you REALLY think that noone at /. has ever commented on a story with a different alias?

    This is so non-newsworthy it just amazes me.
  • astroturfing (so named because it is "fake grass roots support") is a standard internet advertising practice.

    with tons of free email accounts and easily fakable posting addresses it is pretty easy to do.

    it is certainly no more annoying than banner ads.

  • Aaaargh! (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Grrrr, this astroturfing thing sounded so very interesting and the site is being Slashdotted to death. This time Slashdot just won't get away with it. It's payback time.

    [...enters the soapbox, piercing sounds from the megaphone...]

    All geeks in the universe, unite! Click here [slashdot.org] to Slashdot the Slashdot.

    ---
    Anonymous Coward

  • Your search - "Elvis works at my gas station." - did not match any documents.

    Try that again with the quotes, your 4810 matches (without the quotes) have no relation to that statement :).
  • A few day ago, Linux Today posters on various Mono-related articles were insisting, apparently in all seriousness, that Miguel de Icaza is a Microsoft mole, and speculating that Richard Stallman is, as well. Almost every discussion there involves accusations of astroturfing, with Joe Barr, who seems to be involved here, leading the pack.

    Yeah, there were a few comments along those lines, but I don't think it was all astroturfing -- some people really do believe Miguel is a MSFT mole, as irrational as that may sound. And I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss something that Joe Barr wrote and Nick Petreley published -- they both have reputations to maintain, and I'm sure they wouldn't have gone out on a limb without being very sure of their evidence. It seems likely that the evidence came from an LT insider, but that's just speculation on my part.

  • What kind of site does Slashdot want to be? (Score:5)

    by Sanity ( 1431 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @09:30AM (#74273) Homepage Journal
    If the editors of /. want it to be a serious news site, then the need to include the words "and obviously, this is a rumor" should disqualify any article immediately. Of course, I am sure in most cases it would, but in this case, the site on the receiving end happens to be a competitor.

    I know that it is getting fashionable to criticise slashdot these days, and most of the time, my answer is "if you don't like it, don't visit the site", however I think that this definitely steps over the line.

    So are we to see a relaxation of any editorial standards whenever the opportunity arises to take a swipe at a competitive news site?

    --

  • Iago of the Internet (Score:3)

    by Ranger ( 1783 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @11:14AM (#74274) Homepage
    If it turns out to be true, this guy should be voted the Iago of the Internet. People really hate being played for rubes. Destroying trust is a serious no-no. It shouldn't be too hard to prove the story. Check if those so-called aliases are real people. If not that should lend credence to the story.

    Note - Iago (not the parrot on Disney's Aladdin) was a rumormonger that got Desdemona whacked by her own husband Othello (not the board game).

  • The term moron has been around for many many years.

    The term 'astroturf' has been around since the 1960's when the grass died at the Astrodome and they replaced it with fake green stuff.

    I'm actually somewhat amazed at how the zealotry of the anti-Microsoft crowd are willing to rewrite history in their quest for vengance against imaginary wrongs.

  • Re:thats awefull (Score:3)

    by sheldon ( 2322 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @10:59AM (#74276)
    They don't have to. There are plenty of us who will speak out on it's positive merits for free.

  • Another interesting, um, internet.com'ism (Score:5)

    by rwuest ( 2452 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @09:50AM (#74277) Homepage

    First, Let me say that I have an agenda: I've had a war on, since 1998, with the authors of a crappy little program for Linux called linuxcad [netcom.com]. This is a several hundred dollar (yes it _does_ cost more than $99 to get all the stuff, trust me) piece of junk that, in addition to not being worth anything like the price (can you say "rip-off"), they are constant newsgroup spammers. [zip.com.au]

    Now it amazes me that, for as long as I can remember visiting linuxapps [linuxapps.com], this program has been in the #6 "Most popular today" position. I notice that kind of thing. Now a quick search around and you'll only find this program at one other site, SAL, which may not know any better. I've written to linuxapps.com suggesting they remove it to keep Linuxers from getting ripped off (I've got a number of emails to back that), but it's still there. It sure is suspicious to me.

    Ok, maybe the list isn't updated, but then again, I have seen it change. So it seems to me, that they're playing a similar game here (the game of deception) to make you think lcad is a popular program, probably for pay from the lcad authors (I emphasize probably), and get you ripped-off, too.

  • ...circle jerk deals, isn't it?

    /. contrives some article about absolutely nothing that may or may not be happening at some other Linux site, and the other site gets some hits...

    ...and the other Linux site, later on, contrives something about /. and sends hits back to /.

    Let's add "hit whore" to the /. lexicon, right down there with "karma whore".

    That's about what Taco and the rest have stooped to become, these days...

    t_t_b
    --
    I think not; therefore I ain't®

  • I remember Joe Barr screaming fire alot back on Fidonet when OS/2 and Windows was the current thing to fight about. Joe's still at it, eh? In Joe's defense, he was fighting against the cheats, liars and lackeys of MS. It's easy to get worked up when you are doing "mortal combat toe-to-toe with the rooskies".

  • Journalism (Score:4)

    by Uruk ( 4907 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @09:10AM (#74280)
    And obviously this is a rumor. Pretty interesting to read some of the stuff that was said.

    And that's why nobody should bitch about what slashdot does and what slashdot says. Ever see anything in the Wall Street Journal followed by "and this is obviously a rumor"...

    This is not a professional journalism site. This is a rumour mill, a flame room, and all kinds of other things. So if I see another post saying "slashdot really sucks because they don't give equal time to X" I'm going to start spinning, and spinning, and I'm not going to stop, until THERES BLOOD ALL OVER THE WALLS.

  • Re:hmm (Score:2)

    by cymen ( 8178 )
    You may think of SoftwareForge Inc., LinuxCAD as about a product or as a technology. Our technology can be applied in consulting services for accomplishing your product delivery objectives. Whatever your field is, engineering , architecture , medical information technology , real time control systems or computer games development, you may benefit from our advanced graphics modeling technology. LinuxCAD is something every Linux user needs, not only drafters or engineers. Software professionals can use LinuxCAD as an Entity Relationship, Flow Chart and Object Visual Modeling tool.

    Wow! It sounds like it can do anything.

  • If LinuxToday, that cheesy little newswire-excerpt site with the amateur design, is a major Linux news portal, then I'm the Archduke of Luxembourg.

    And Internet.com! Isn't that the flagship publication of INTM, the company that operates the burned-out husks of Mecklermedia's trade papers and Earthweb's awful developer portals? Internet.com gets respectable traffic numbers, but they're not exactly in ZDNet or CNet territory.

    I'm shocked--shocked--that a dorm-room project like LinuxToday would engage in planted self-promotion.

    Does LinuxToday even pay for its wire feeds? I'm not sure the entire lead paragraphs og stories constitutes fair use.

  • Several posts have indicated that the term was "invented" for the 98 Microsoft situation, and while the article does indicate that it came into popularity (at least among the tech crowd) in 98, rather than was coined, I think this is worth mentioning that this term was not invented for Microsoft.

    The term astroturfing has been around for a long time and as mentioned refers to bogus grassroots support. In 5 seconds I found this [google.com] Deja posting using the term for the same reason from 1995. Unfortunately that is the earliest that Deja's archive goes (uh...Google's).

    Just wanted to clarify that. One other point worth mentioning is that it's foolish to say that because there is some astroturfing, therefore it's all astroturfing (that's the big thing here on Slashdot...everyone who isn't pro-Linux is paid by Bill).

  • The term astroturfing was around long before that, 'moron'.

  • Isen't this the guy that distroyed justlinux.com?

  • Boy, its a good thing Microsoft would never do anything like this to make NT look more popular.

    They don't have to. There are plenty of us who will speak out on it's positive merits for free.

    Sure, sure. Considering that *every one* of your posts is either Pro-Microsoft or anti-Linux/Open Source, I think we know what you are. Fairly convincing evidence that Microsoft doesn't have any real grass-roots support, don't you think?
    --

  • Yes. They're sometimes called op-ed pieces.
  • Oh, what a giveaway!

    You mean the part where you misspelled your own name, Mr. Dell? :)

  • It's important to keep in mind that this story comes from well-known kook Joe Barr. The fact that it came from his addled brain should definitely have been mentioned in the story summary, since that tells a big part of the story in and of itself. He's an unstable guy who does things like sends emails to company presidents calling them "asslickers" for actually saying something positive about Microsoft. In fact, I get the feeling that's the main reason why Barr's on his jihad against the LinuxToday guy -- for not being harsh enough on Microsoft.


    Cheers,

  • Joe Barr's an unstable idiot who is always accusing people of astroturfing or being paid off if they disagree with him. I'm kind of curious why he holds any credibility with the Linux community in the first place, especially after his "asslicker" antics. Trust me, he's definitely not helping the cause of anybody he aligns himself with. He's like a one-man Team OS/2. (Honest question: I know he used to be big into OS/2, was he actually part of Team OS/2?). Old Joe reminds me of what Nicholas Petreley would be like if you fed him cocaine, speed, and cafe lattes continuously over a 48-hour period.

    Speaking of which, what happened to Nicholas Petreley? Anyone seen his picture lately? I just saw it today and was wondering if he has cancer. I'm not even close to being a fan of his, but there's no way in Hell I'd ever wish it on the guy.


    Cheers,

  • It's not a rumor. It's a news story. (Score:5)

    by dinotrac ( 18304 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @09:53AM (#74291) Journal
    I don't know how many sources Joe had, but I do know that he researched this story. He contacted me for some of my opinions on LT, but, so far as I can tell, the only contribution I made (assuming others didn't make it as well) was to notice that LT's talkback policy changed a couple of months ago, eliminating language about frowning on deceptive practices.

    I seriously hope that these charges are not true. I have spent a lot of time there, and count some of its former staffers (damned dot.com bust) among my friends.

    I have to admit, slow and dim-witted as I am, even I had noticed a couple of funny things.

    Here are a couple of posts that really stuck in my head:

    http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001- 02 -21-001-20-OP-BZ-CY-0027
    (George Tirebiter telling ac he had posted his response to another article)

    The interesting thing here is that Tirebiter's response doesn't seem remotely
    right for an LT reader. Why?
    1. Because it crosses articles
    2. Because Tirebiter must have some reason to assume that ac didn't post
    the link in response to two different articles - something he couldn't know
    without being an insider
    3. If one hadn't just read the ac post containing the link, searching for
    it would have been all but impossible with the broken LT search engine.
    Searching for AC chokes. The only way to make is show up (at least back when
    I tried it) was to search for "1999". Not exactly intuitive.

    http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001- 03 -07-001-21-OP-DT-RH-0019
    (Clark Addison telling me that I must not be an attentive LT reader or I
    would have noticed the InstallShield banner adds)

    1. Just odd to have a reader drawing my attention to the banner ads.
    2. This is the guy's third post and second on this article. His first post
    was three days earlier.
    3. Funny -- there is a Tirebiter response on this, too.

    Clark Addison had two more posts (3/13 and 14) then disappears into the ether.

    Two weird posts don't mean anything.
    Still...

    Dean Pannell
    (a.k.a. dinotrac)
  • I think slashdot needs a new moderation rating:
    * Plagarism (-1)

    Anm
  • I happen to disagree with regards to this particular story.

    First of all the allegations are quite serious. If this turns out to be true, the guy would probably have to resign.

    Secondly, they have been publicly made by a reasonably well known journalist(Joe Barr) who presumably wouldn't just make something up out of his ass.

    Thirdly, the linked article does detail some sort of circumstantial evidence that one may examine to see how true the allegations are. I was able to search for 'George Tirebiter' and verify that he had posted a LOT recently. While by no means conclusive(OK it doesn't prove jack), at least its not just PURE rumor like the National Enquirer or something.

    Fourthly, /. is not a professional journalism site and has never claimed to be. They don't have the reseachers, editors etc that are necessary to do that kind of job, and would have to change their structure considerably to do so. What they do is post what they find interesting and provide a forum for discussion. Period.

    So while I would not support /. being the origin of this story, I don't see anything wrong with them linking to it. Its similar to how Newsweek was not able to talk about Monica Lewinsky until Matt Drudge put it up on his website, once rumors go out they become legitimate topics.

    Now I am not a complete apologist for /. I do recognize that the quality here has seemed to decline over the years. I am not sure if that is real or subjective, but it certainly seems there is a better S/N ratio on kuro5hin and Ars(among other places).

    Two recommendations
    (1) Spell check story introductions! This is so trivial and it looks stupid to see a site as famous as /. with obvious misspellings by the editors.

    (2) When possible try to contact the sources to verify the more outrageous rumors. Remember this? [slashdot.org]
    (I am sure there are plenty of other examples)

  • ...do you REALLY think that noone at /. has ever commented on a story with a different alias?

    That's a preposterous idea.
    What do you think AC is for?
  • You obviously haven't been paying attention to politics. That's how our system works. Two or more candidates square off and throw mud at each other. The one who's cleanest when the bell rings gets to be president or senator or whatever.

    Why would you think that web sites would behave any differently when vying for the hearts and minds of the Linux faithful? I'm not endorsing this behavior but it is understandable when our leaders set the example.
  • ...but it would have been better if Barr had actually provided the evidence linking Reichard with the "George Tirebiter", "Tom Dooley" and "Will Smith" aliases, instead of just making the claims and leaving it at that. I dunno if Barr is protecting his source by not presenting any evidence yet, or if he's giving Reichard a chance to fess up.

    'Course, the whole thing could be based on unfounded rumour or flimsy, weak "evidence," but we won't really know until LT speaks up, now will we?
  • Oh boy.

    I posted above before reaching this particular post... if LT staff were astroturfing their own site, the question would have to be "why?" Would it be to create the impression LT has a larger, more involved readership than it really does? To generate conversation? Boredom on the part of the staff (insert "idle hands" comment here)?

    I don't post to LT all that often; usually only if something pops into my head, or a Mozilla article (I'm a rather vocal Moz advocate there:). If it turns out some of the comments I saw, or even possibly replied to, were made by staff for less-than-admirable purposes, I'd probably stop posting there for sure, and possibly stop reading the site. I won't tolerate or support underhanded tactics from a site I trust to not manipulate forums on the articles posted.

    Now, Slashdot is another matter; I'm nearly positive that a few of the authors are well-known trolls, and manipulation/correction of posted articles is common, so shit-disturbing by the authors wouldn't surprise me. I'd certainly be a little surprised, and more than a little miffed, to discover that LT wasn't being completely honest with its treatment of stories and comments.

    Interesting side note; I think it was Reichard that posted an article a while back outing the IP of an anonymous person who submitted an article highlighting a circumstance where Windows bested Linux in some real-world situation. It was an M$ IP, which Reichard apparently "took offense" to. He was soundly lambasted in the comments, and the article disappeared from the site hours later. So I suppose I shouldn't be entirely surprised to discover some other less-than-angelic actions have been taking place there... but it would be very disappointing to have that confirmed.

    Man. I dunno. As I type this, LT hasn't posted anything regarding the charges, but I imagine Kevin's doing some fast typing, and possibly e-mailing, right about now.
  • post a summary of the article for those of us who are affected by the train derailment?
  • You know, that could explain some of the stuff that's shown up in the queue at k5 lately.
  • >Now, Slashdot is another matter; I'm nearly positive that a few of the authors are well-known trolls

    What, like Jon Katz? But he's not anonymous.

    Oh, sorry, you mean posting comments, not articles....

  • I don't remember anyone doing that. Everyone I know just said this is complete crap and didn't see it again.

    Anyway, Slashdot isn't complete crap (that's just where it's headed). Just because people complain doesn't mean they completely dislike the site. They just want to stop the continuing increase of crap on the site and improve the site. It's stupid to just say "oh, don't ever complain, you should leave instead of complain, don't ever ask for improvement". Nothing is perfect, there's always something wrong with everything, if everyone just abandoned various things instead of asking for improvement, the world would just fall apart.

  • Re:Journalism (Score:3)

    by J.Random Hacker ( 51634 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @09:44AM (#74302)
    ha == clearly you have not been reading slashdot lately! slashdot really sucks because they don't give equal time to anti-quark doesn't matter engines!!

    ;-)
  • Tirebiter comments on Linux Today:

    http://linuxtoday.com/search.php3?tbquery=Tirebite r [linuxtoday.com]

    "Tire Biter" Hmmm...


    - - - - -
  • Just for balance, here are Joe Barr's comments on Linux Today (some are even in response to Tirebiter's... though I don't know if that means anything):
    http://linuxtoday.com/search.php3?tbquery=Joe+barr [linuxtoday.com]

    I don't know anything about him, but a lot of these seem pretty inflammatory to me, too.

    Nate

  • No, dinotrac is a regular on Linux Today, as am I. (in fact the only reason I'm here is that LT isn't covering this). You can verify this by searching on either of our names in the search talkback option on LT. This is whole thing is very surprising to me. I'd suspected for a while that one person was running several "Characters" but never would have guessed it was Kevin who seemed like a pretty upstanding guy. He was though, very entertaining in the posts...
    ---
    RobK
  • Hey, no shit genius!
    Gee thanks, I enjoy being insulted for no reason. So which one were you, Scooby perchance?

    The tone sure sounds like it.

    If it is, then I got my fair share of chain yanking in too.
    It was troll heaven, except for the totally outrageous moderation system with editors stopping posts for no other reason than they didn't agree with them.FWIW: I developed a real dislike for LT in the end. I got to see the true nature of the talkback system and how the editors slant the whole thing to support their own views and worst of all, actually EDIT posts to change their meanings (yes, this happened to me a couple of times).

    This accusation has been made several times by many trolls on the site. It's a boring accusation which is easily proved. The email function emails the talkback as it exists when first posted. All you need to do is set up an email account and send all of your talkbacks to that. Then do a diff on what actually appears. If something is not posted, you can make it public.

    And yet no one has done it. I've even offered to host the files demonstrating this at several times in the past. To date there is still no proof of either arbitrary editing or arbitrary censoring.

    Personally, I never had a problem with them not posting my talkbacks...or changing them. Even when I _know_ they disagree with me. On the few occasions that they didn't post my talkback, they always had a very good reason. Just email them and get a response within an hour or two.

    Why don't you go dig up some proof, it would make for quite a story. You might even get a write up on /.


    ---
    RobK
  • Gee thanks, I enjoy being insulted for no reason. So which one were you, Scooby perchance?

    Still a pretentious windbag, eh? Telling you which trolls I was would spoil the fun. You'll work it out, maybe.

    I may be a pretentious windbag, it's true. This is hardly the first time I've been called that. OTOH, I've never felt the need to take cheap shots to make myself look/feel good.

    Then do a diff on what actually appears. If something is not posted, you can make it public.

    And the response would be the same... "you are a lying troll."

    Hmmmm... I don't recall myself personally ever calling anyone a liar, just asking for some form of verification. And such a response I've only seen very rarely on LT. It's odd that you would think so... but I'm not here to psycho-analyze anybody.

    Such a step would at least show some form of good faith on the accusers part. Heck you could even do it to an email address where several people have the password, so that they could each verify the what posts appeared.

    My point remains. It is simple to provide evidence, yet no one has. Considering the small amount of time and the press to be gained, you'ld think that someone would make the attempt.

    Personally, I never had a problem with them not posting my talkbacks...or changing them.

    Well that's alright then... it must not be happing if it's not happened to you.

    <Sarcasm>
    Thank you for so cleaverly deducing my point for me. I appreciate your depth of insight into what I was saying.
    </Sarcasm>
    That was not my point, and you know it. I was simply stating what my experience was in contrast to yours. I've never had a problem with a post that the editors didn't have a very good reason for their desicion. I'm sorry if that is not your experience, but it is mine.


    ---
    RobK
  • Yeah, it's me.

    I just wanted to comment that Joe Barr has posted some verifiable evidence of severe editorial manipulation at LT that goes well beyond the trolling that KR was doing.

    It now looks as if I got the eviedence I was looking for, which is all that I was after in the whole thing from the begining. (Despite the offense taken by many people whom I asked.)

    So it looks like I must admit that you were right, and I was wrong. I can't link directly to the post in question, however it's here http://varlinux.org/article.php?sid=296&mode=neste d&order=0&thold=0 about 90% of the way towards the end.

    It starts out "Dear LinuxToday Staffer (or apologist)," and was posted on "Friday, July 20 @ 06:11:06 PDT", incase you want to check it out.


    ---
    RobK
  • Actually, I'm violating several Troll High Council rules by telling you this but: I don't think you'll ever learn. This entire thread is a troll Rob (not that it's untrue, just a troll)... and you've walked into it yet again.

    Do you really think I'm so stupid that I didn't know that? I've been hanging out on usenet, /., LT and others for much too long to be that naive. I know when I'm being trolled, and I very rarely take this stuff as seriously as people seem to think I do.

    Of course, you'll respond with some smartass crack like "What ever lets you sleep at night." And if that makes you feel good, you can go ahead an believe that I'm lying.... doesn't matter to me.

    Despite what you seem to think, I decided to feed the trolls _knowingly_. It is fun and entertaining to me. Especially when I can illicit reactions such as I got from some of the LT trolls such as "Scooby" and "Marc Adams." Or, to watch their reactions. Lately, I was picking on "Anon," but it looks like that will get interrupted as LT's been down for quite a while. And even if it comes back up, I won't be going back there w/o a _really_ _good_ explination of what they did and why.

    Think of it as metatrolling, it's a matter of having that much more paitence than the given troll and getting them to lose their temper.

    If you look back about 90% or so of my posts are real and genuine...my honest to goodness opinion. The other 10%, responding to trolls are just to p*ss them off.

    I've been doing it for years. Ted Holden (on talk.origins) and Alexander Abian (on sci.physics) were my two earliest victims. That was in '90-'91. If you feel compelled, I'm sure google groups would have some of the postings from rk3h@andrew.cmu.edu, my college email address.

    Sadly, the real hum-dinger flame I got from Ted was sent to my private email, which was probably deleted long, long ago. So you won't get to see that....

    It is my sworn duty to drag this thread out until it degenerates into childish name-calling, but I'm giving you a get out of jail card. I hope you appreciate it.

    Huh--- yeah, you've been so successful in the past. IIRC, I've not resorted to out and out name-calling in any thread since I stopped hanging around talk.origins back in '91. Ocassionally little snide comments, but that's about it. Trust me, I'll stop posting _long_ before I get to the point of childish name calling.

    Think of it as a challenge....

    You can believe this, or not, it really makes no difference anymore, but: I did as you suggested. I posted all of my censored messages in a hidden slashdot sid. I advertised its presence in trolltalk (another hidden sid), and tried mightly to get it mentioned in an LT talkback. No chance.

    Every time I mentioned the sid, and that people could get my uncensored messages there, my posts were deleted.

    Then post the url. /. supposedly isn't moderated. Or email it to a regular. Or... or... or...
    Joe Barr is still collecting more information on this, you could email _him_ the URL, or post it on the varlinux discussion about this story.

    I'm not saying that I _don't_ believe you, it's perfectly possible you've done such a thing. I'm not about to defend LT now, or question claims about the site now that all of this evidence is staring me in the face. But, it would be really nice to know just how bad this corruption at LT goes.
    ---
    RobK
  • As a matter of fact, no. I think you have such a blazing desire to win an argument that you will not let it drop. I've been around even longer than you Rob, I know your type.


    I'm glad that you seem to think you know me so well. Unfortunately you are wrong.

    So long, nice talking to you again.
    ---
    RobK
  • All are made up characters to make is seem like the monopoly is shrinking.

    No, they're made up characters so that 5 years from now when CmdrTaco makes a post saying "I just tried Windows QZ, it's so much better than Linux" Bill Gates can publicize this high profile conversion, of course this assumes that Bill Gates is a real person.

  • Re:Can this all just stop now? (Score:3)

    by Cylix ( 55374 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @10:51AM (#74312) Homepage Journal
    Uh Huh,

    You are just trying to mislead us from finding the AC's true identity! You are one of THEM!!!! ;)

    Paranoia, paranoia, everyone's coming to get me!

    Moderators: This is funny +1 (if you are humorful) or +1 Insightful (if you are paranoid)

  • "And obviously this is a rumor"
    O, yes of course this is a rumor because no one who likes linux ever does anything wrong [slashdot.org]
    since we are all such great programmers, we all know that X = perfect person for all X that are linux users. but cmdrtaco hath spoken so all cronies bow down and worship him.

    I used to come to slashdot for the latest news, now I come for the "great" movie reviews...

    Josh
  • Microsoft is the reason 'Astroturfing' was even coined, moron. If they didn't have to, then why did they?
  • Maybe there is really only one person behind slashdot and it's Bill Gates [microsoft.com]!
    CmdTaco
    Jon Katz
    etc.
    All are made up characters to make is seem like the monopoly is shrinking.
  • Contributed by Anonymous on Wednesday, July 18 @ 19:39:00 PDT
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    [Miscellaneous] An anonymous source has provided detailed evidence showing that the popular Linux news portal LinuxToday.com has been astroturfed by its own staff for almost as long as it has been owned by internet.com. In particular, the source has identified Kevin Reichard, Executive Editor of the Linux/Open Source & Internet Technology Channels at internet.com, as having allegedly posted these messages under a number of aliases on the site.

    According to the source, others were involved in the astroturfing as well, though not to the same degree as Reichard. The source expressed hope that they will step forward and out themselves of their own accord.

    "Astroturfing" refers to a method used to create the illusion of grassroots support. The term came into popularity following the LA Times revelation in 1998 of a Microsoft PR plan which would pay individuals to write letters, opinion pieces, or comments in online forums supporting Microsoft in their protracted antitrust battle.

    Based on the evidence supplied by the source, Reichard has been posting talkbacks under a number of fictitious names since late 1999. Reichard has allegedly used the aliases of "George Tirebiter", "Tom Dooley", and "Will Smith" among others. These ersatz talkbacks reveal a very clear pattern of demeaning the competition while cheerleading for those associated with internet.com. The posts have targeted the sites and/or staff from sites such as LinuxWorld.com, Newsforge, Slashdot, Linux.com, ZD Net, Infoworld, Linux Journal, and The Register.

    The talkbacks posted under these names accused others of trolling for page views and claiming that they were something less than honest and candid. About O'Reilly, "George Tirebiter" said, "Just some FUD spread by a company with a vested interest -- and they don't tell you their interest."

    A search of LinuxToday talkbacks done today returns eight instances of the use of the perjorative term "Newsforger" when referring to the competitive site, Newsforge.com, which is a site owned by VA Linux. Seven of those eight instances are from talkbacks posted by the aliases "George Tirebiter", "Will Smith", and "Tom Dooley". The eighth is a post by Grant Gross, editor at the Newsforge site. Gross was responding to a talkback posted by the alias "Tom Dooley" which attacked Newsforge, saying that they were "blatantly and shamelessly trolling for page views. At least when LToday talks to RMS it's over something important, not something stupid like this."

    These alias "personalities" also went after leaders of the open source and free software communities. People like Eric Raymond, Richard Stallman, and Alan Cox. "George Tirebiter", in particular, attacked the GPL, Linux geeks, Red Hat, VA Linux, Sun, and IBM.

    The rollcall of the "Tirebiter" targets reads like a Microsoft "enemies list." In one talkback "Tirebiter" defends Microsoft's attacks on the GPL by asking "Why are we villifying Microsoft for raising valid concerns that others have raised?". "George Tirebiter" said about Alan Cox, "I woulda thought better of Alan. But then again, he's the only one not to release his opinion to the public, preferring to retain ownership on a closed-source Red Hat site."

    In one rant, "George Tirebiter" lashes out at Eric S. Raymond's piece called "Beware the Microsoft shell game." "Tirebiter" posted a message saying "Y'all are a hoot. I want some of the wacky tobaccy y'all are smoking, because it certainly does alter your senses. You don't even see that stunts like this allow ESR to claim a victory no matter what happens: should someone from MS give a speech that doesn't mention open source, he'll claim victory." In the same post, the alias conludes by telling LinuxToday readers to "Wake up. You're being manipulated, and y'all don't even know it."
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  • Rumors have it that CmdrTaco and Hemos are astroturfing Slashdot...

    So that's where all the first posts come from...
  • Then don't call it "news" and don't let the "editors" sit in on panels as "journalists" at conferences.
  • on the one hand he can get rid of some of the groundskeepers, but he's gonna be seeing at lot more knee injuries around there now.

    ---

  • Actually, I took "and obviously, this is a rumor" to be a means for CmdrTaco to cover his ass, and I'm okay with that. It was a noteworthy article, something to keep your eye on, but also to be taken with a grain of salt.

    Had CmdrTaco not posted the article with a disclaimer, then I'd be worried about the integrity of /. (Don't laugh.) As is, I'm a happy reader.

  • Making fun of slashdot latley reminds me alot of peoples attitudes about the Star Wars Episode I when it came out -- everyone bitched about it but they still kept going back to see it again.
  • Whoever said they wanted a "a serious news site". Taco has always says he posts what interests him, and hope it makes for good discussion. This article looks like it succeeds on both those counts. Frankly, for someone who's been here a while, I'm surprised you haven't figured that out.


    --------

  • I hate to inform you of this, but, your conspiracy theory fall apart when you start to read the posts on /. Too many of them have somewhere between excellent and decent grammar, and most words are spelled correctly. Heck, even the tenses of words are correct. As has been proved time and time again, CmdrTaco cannot spell, use proper grammer, and tenses are a complete mystery to him.

    Of course, I could just as easily be CmdrTaco in disguise. The whole spelling and grammar thing - it's all a ruse. I just post article... er, HE just post articles with bad spelling to produce a distinctive writing style, while using a totally different, almost sane, style while Astroturfing here on /.

  • yes, a train crashed [yahoo.com] in a baltimore train tunnel and burned a bunch of fiber optic cable.
  • I've got a new .sig! (Replicated below for those people who have signatures turned off.)
    Wake up. You're being manipulated, and y'all don't even know it.
    -- "George Tirebiter", LinuxToday

    Wake up. You're being manipulated, and y'all don't even know it.
  • I'd find it most interesting to hear how much the average /. effect costs the smaller websites that get nailed...imagine the poor cuss who gets billed for all the bandwidth that goes above and beyond his chosen rate plan.
  • This is not a professional journalism site. This is a rumour mill, a flame room, and all kinds of other things.

    I just checked, and www.tacoreport.com is available!

  • I bet over half of the FP'ers on slashdot are actually a script written by cmdr taco to gain more hits for slashdot.

    Taco also is probably the brain child behind pouring hot grits down his pants.

    So Taco, how many fake Accounts do you have?
  • Let's add "hit whore" to the /. lexicon, right down there with "karma whore".

    The correct term is "link whore".

    ---
  • What kind of lamer fakes "grassroots support" for thier site?

    BTW, check out this really jazzy site that I am a fanboy for [broody.org]...
  • In response to Point # 2 - according to netcraft:
    :
    Apache/1.3.20 (Unix) Debian/GNU PHP/4.0.6

    So we can't say anything about M$, unfortunately ;)

    Does this mean that this post deserves a +2, Informative?
    [yes, it's a joke, see my .sig ;)]
  • Whoa. Who'd guess, looking at their professional looking home page [linuxcad.com]? :-)
  • ...was reveiled by an "anonymous source"

    Yeah! Has about the credibility of an average, corporate press release

  • IIRC, George is the adult version of Porgy. For more information, buy the Firesign Theatre CD (or LP) "Don't Crush that Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers."

  • thats awefull (Score:4)

    by Billly Gates ( 198444 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @09:14AM (#74336) Journal
    Boy, its a good thing Microsoft would never do anything like this to make NT look more popular.

  • Wow (Score:2)

    by Coq ( 204365 )
    Them some pretty mean accusations, but where's the proof? Reading the article makes it sound like this stuff all definately happened. I was convinced for like two seconds. But then I realized, hey, maybe he didn't actually do it?
  • So are we to see a relaxation of any editorial standards whenever the opportunity arises to take a swipe at a competitive news site?

    Sir, you are implying that there were editiorial standards before this article was posted.
  • Yeah, whatever... Kevin Reichard!! Yeah, we know it's you!
  • Yeah, blame 'm all of astroturfing.
    Except I happened to notice that almost all comments here are written by that anonymous coward dude!
    No grassroots here either I guess.

  • Can this all just stop now? (Score:5)

    by update() ( 217397 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @10:26AM (#74341) Homepage
    I haven't been able to read the Slashdotted page, just what has been reposted here. It sounds like the sort of detective work you see on the troll sites, where loons argue over the identity of other anonymous loons as though national security is at stake.

    Meanwhile, at kuro5hin, there's a dispute going as to whether the author of a piece saying Linux tech support is going to be difficult is a Microsoft employee. A few day ago, Linux Today posters on various Mono-related articles were insisting, apparently in all seriousness, that Miguel de Icaza is a Microsoft mole, and speculating that Richard Stallman is, as well. Almost every discussion there involves accusations of astroturfing, with Joe Barr, who seems to be involved here, leading the pack.

    Hopefully this sort of accusation is going to go out of fashion soon. Anyone with a little experience in the adult world should have learned why it's considered bad form to wildly throw unsupported, undisprovable accusations at anyone you dislike. ("You're complaining that my cattle ate your corn? Well, I think you're a WITCH!") To my mind, shouting "Astroturf!" is like stamping "obnoxious 14 year old" on your forehead* and just gives the impression you're too boneheaded to accept the possibility that anyone might genuinely disagree with you -- let alone that you might be wrong.

    Anyway, who cares? Posters say what they say and it doesn't matter who might be paying them. And does it really matter if witless attacks against Eric Raymond by "George Tirebiter" are really by an editor? How is that even "astroturfing" at all?

    * As do "BWAHAHAHAHAHA!" and "Bzzzt! Wrong!" You can almost smell the Clearasil when you read stuff like that.

    Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

  • Agreed. A quick search on Google returns almost 5,000 hits for "Elvis works at my gas station."
  • Check this...

    George Tirebiter and then Porgy Tirebiter?

    Is this some family feud?

    http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001- 05 -31-002-20-SC

    Certainly strange...But you will notice that the thread is kind of short. Maybe they only do this on short threads that have the potential to be much bigger....
  • You know what the great thing about computers are? The fact that (almost) anything that can be claimed about them can be proven (or refuted). With facts (gasp)

    IOW if someone is posting a fact and you believe it to be true when it really isnt its your fault not theirs. If it was an opinion, you still have the choice of agreeing (or not) but no matter who the messenger was if it made you think a little you might even come away with something new (albeit useless :) .

    Take anything on the net with a grain of salt. Actually make that two or three.
  • The head on over to adequacy.org [adequacy.org] - the Internet's first troll-free discussion site.

    adequacy.org [adequacy.org] maintains its 'troll-free' reputation by riding roughshod over the constitutional rights of its readership, censoring them whenever they step over some imaginary line.

    I imagine Michael Sims would be very welcome there.

  • Jon Katz has been known to frequent the place

    Did you know that JonKatz has actually been pre-emptively BANNED by the adequacy.org [adequacy.org] editors ?

    I think that is the difference between crapflooder-friendly sites with no censorship, such as the ones you refer to, and high-quality editied sites like adequacy.org [adequacy.org]

  • This sort of thing works because its that urbanlegend class of credability

    "I read it on the Internet" "I heard it at a party"

  • Material From everything2.com

    1) A great way to stress test any resource on the internet:
    Tell slashdot.org about it.
    The tides of users all clicking to look at the resource will stress it far better than any commercial tool on the market today.
    Hmmmm.... Does that make it an Open Source Stress Test?

    2) The coined term for Slashdot pointing it's many participants to a website that can't take the traffic and falls over.
    This is soon followed by discussion on Slashdot of why the story's server fell over. Someone will check Netcraft to see what OS they're running and get "+2 Informative". They will get "+4 Informative" if it's running Microsoft. Someone with the site in cache will mirror it and upload a copy to their universities server (copyright, strangely, ain't an issue).
    In some circumstances the server won't go down but administrators will take drastic action and 404 the site or restrict access. This is also taken under the umbrella term of The Slashdot Effect as slashdot's responsible.
    The Slashdot Effect is something like an unintentional DoS attack.

    3) Very subtile variant of a Distributed Denial of Service attack and an example of a symbiosis: The Slashdot folks Flood the Target Site and get good story for that.

    4) And here's the Luddite translation:
    "Computer try to suck watermelon through straw, computer go boom."

    5) 1. Also spelled "/. effect"; what is said to have happened when a website being virtually unreachable because too many people are hitting it after the site was mentioned in an interesting article on the popular Slashdot news service. The term is quite widely used by /. readers, including variants like "That site has been slashdotted again!" 2. In a perhaps inevitable generation, the term is being used to describe any similar effect from being listed on a popular site. This would better be described as a flash crowd.

    --- My Karma is bigger than your...
    ------ This sentence no verb
    ------ Ths sntnc n vwl
  • There is not reason, because everyone knows that MicroSoft is the best.

    Yours impersonatedly,
    Micheal Dell

    Oh, what a giveaway!

  • I think Porgy was a role that George Tirebiter had played earlier in his career: "George, do you remember all of those stupid, lovable Porgy and Mudhead movies you did?"

    Man, what a great album! Now I'll have to dig out my record player and give it another listen.

    JUDGE: If the prisoner doesn't answer the question we'll have to gag him.
    MUDHEAD: What question?
    JUDGE: Gag him!
    LAWYER: Who was that lady I saw you with last night?

  • Actually, George LeRoy Tirebiter is the name of a character from The Firesign Theatre's classic album Don't Crush That Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers. I've never seen it on CD, only on lp, but if you have to mortgage the house to do it, get a copy and listen to it. Repeatedly. There are things in the middle of side 1 (aka This Side) that refer to something at the end of side 2 (aka That Side).
  • Oh come on.

    Mormonism is, along with Scientology and Islam, one of three religions officially recognized by the editors this web site

    It can't be a serious site, can it? It's just a big joke, right? (Please don't tell me I'm wrong.)

  • that all of the hidden goatse links here on /. are evidence of potential astroturfing too?

    Makes you wonder...
  • It's a floor wax and a delicious dessert topping!
  • The constitution only applies to the government you tool.

    You don't have any 'constitutional rights' on my server or any other privately owned one.

  • Do you know the origin of the name "George Tirebiter"?
    I do.

  • It can't be! (Score:4)

    by President of The US ( 443103 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @09:30AM (#74357) Homepage
    Someone faking their identity on an internet message board? I can't believe it! Is nothing sacred?! You don't know who your reading anymore.

    Ahh, screw it, I don't want to deal with this. I'm enjoying this AOL chat room much more -- I think I'll ask Sexygrrl69 what she thinks about those jerks at LinuxToday.
    -----------------------

  • See post #17 for the answer to all your questions.
  • We now have one troll site riffing on another troll site while trolling various netfora to generate hits for itself.

    adequacy.org really lives up to its reputation as a lame K5 clone, except with less imaginative trolling. It should be given the appropriate treatment - null routing.
  • A Microsoft paid person who "Leaked" the "FUD" about this story just to get you to make a reply like you just did.

  • Shocking! Just Shocking! (Score:3)

    by Commodore Burrito ( 469249 ) on Thursday July 19, 2001 @09:49AM (#74361)
    I cannot believe that any tech news web page would do that.

    I know that no one working at Slashdot, the finest tech news web page ever created, would ever stoop to that level. They are a very reputable, hard-working, and ethical group and I'm happy to be a reader. I think that everyone who sees this should tell their friends about how great Slashdot is.

    Commodore Burrito

  • Right or wrong, this practice is about as old as newspapers. Ben Franklin's first published writings were letters to the editor of his brother's paper, sent under pseudonyms. It was a common practice in those times, for reasons of marketing or politics or both. Apparently the net has fertilized a revival of the practice... or maybe we just noticed it again. :)

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