Star Wars Episode II: The Book Review 241
| Star Wars: Episode II, Attack of the Clones | |
| author | R. A. Salvatore |
| pages | 336 |
| publisher | Ballantine Publishing Group |
| rating | 6 |
| reviewer | Dark Paladin |
| ISBN | 0345428811 |
| summary | It's written from the screen-play -- how much more do you need to know? |
Hello, Mr. Salvatore!
For the folks who want to get the details on the story without downloading the bootleg version, there's always the novelization based on the screen play, adapted by R. A. Salvatore (the same man behind the many D&D books in the fantasy section of the bookstore).The last time this happened, Terry Brooks was the captain, guiding us through his interpretation of Episode I: The Phantom Menace. It was a good book, filling in the gaps that the movie missed, while telling the story in style. To be honest, I wish we had Mr. Brooks back. It's not that I don't like Mr. Salvatore, but -- well, maybe I don't after reading this book.
It's clear that Salvatore had access to the screen play for the movie, with every move, look, and nuance that was put inside. He also has access to the choreographed scenes, which becomes clear since he feels the need to tell us every single detail of the fights. Thanks to him, I now know that in a fight scene between Obi-Wan and Jango Fett, Obi-Wan "...ducked the blow and did a tight, stationary somersault right under the swinging arm, double-kicking as he came over...", and every other minor detail, blow, kick and jump. A fight scene that probably takes 2 minutes in the movie now takes up 15 pages of text.
It's overkill, and Salvatore does this over and over again. I would say he's wordy, but the definition is too short by at least 30 characters. In another scene, where Anakin goes all Dark Side on us, Salvatore writes it like this (well, not exactly - but it feels that way):
And as the rage raged through Anakin's rage, he raged through his raging rage to rage the rage rage.
I'm not clear here - is Anakin angry? It's a formula that is used over and over again with as much verbage as Salvatore can invent - how much Shmi Skywalker misses her son, or how Padme has chosen professional life over personal life.
You almost want to scream out "We get the point - move on to the story!"
Jedi and Bounty Hunters and Clones, Oh My!
The story itself is predictable sci-fi fiction. We can spot a plot device half a mile away, and in many ways, it emulates Episode I in its setup.
The story involves the attempted assassination of Padme Amidala, who is no longer Queen of Naboo (seems they can only serve 2 terms), but is now Senator of Naboo, fighting to prevent the creation of an army for the Republic to defend it from the Separatists. So the Jedi Council, at the advice of Emperor^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, enlists the help of Obi-Wan Kenobi and his Padawan Apprentice, Anakin Skywalker, to protect the young Senator.
While Obi-Wan takes off to chase after the assassins, Anakin is holed up with Padme all alone on her home planet on Naboo. Of course, nobody else seems to notice that Anakin has been Jonesing for Padme since he was 10. Even though Obi-Wan seems to think that Anakin might get himself into trouble, but is overruled by the Jedi Council, who don't seem to realize that a barely 20-year-old man with raging hormones around Natalie Portman might feel a little tempted.
This soon leads to romantic moments between the younglings, boiled down to this:
Anakin: Padme, I love you, and I'm not even vaguely trying to uphold my vows as a would-be Jedi to never marry. Kind of like a Catholic Priest, without the altar boy scandal. Padme: Anakin, we can't be together. You're a Jedi, and are forbidden to marry. (Even though I think those brown robes are so hot on you.) Anakin: What was that? Padme: Oh, nothing. Let's to romp in the meadow and hold hands even though I say we're not going to fall in love. Anakin: Sure. Can I look longingly at you at times? Padme: If you must. (While I undress you with my eyes.) Anakin: What? Padme: Nothing!
Gaps in the Universe
So while Padme and Anakin are making goo-goo eyes at each other, Obi-Wan is discovering the creation of a clone army, an army based on the genes of Jango Fett, the best bounty hunter of the galaxy, who's cloned son, Boba Fett, is being trained by his "father" to be even better.
But then the questions come up. Who would want the creation of a clone army to fight the Separatists, when the Senate is still arguing about creating an army in the first place? What is Count Dooku, the former Jedi who is labeled as "the best kick ass lightsaber duelist in the history of the galaxy", doing at the head of the Separatists - and what is his plan? And how long until Anakin and Padme finally give in to their lusts and make the beast of two backs?
The story, in and of itself, isn't that interesting. But the story does a good job at tying up the lines between Star Wars Episode 4: A New Hope and the prequels. For the first time, we meet Owen and Beru, and understand how they fit into the Skywalker family. We see how the future Emperor manipulates the public to put himself as the head of the Republic. That alone is enjoyable as you go "Ah...now that makes sense."
But for the cost of the $26.00 book, you might as well just wait a week and pay $11.00 at the movie theaters for the same information - in much less time.
You can purchase Attack of the Clones from bn.com. Want to see your own review here? Just read the book review guidelines, then use Slashdot's handy submission form.
Why wait for the book? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Why wait for the book? (Score:2)
Wordy... (Score:5, Funny)
Conciseness is to be preferred over loquacity and verbosity.
Re:Wordy... (Score:3, Insightful)
SHOW, don't TELL.
Re:Wordy... (Score:1)
Re:Wordy... (Score:2)
Re:Wordy... (Score:2)
Then again, from what little I've seen, Salvatore is a lousy writer regardless.
[Credentialia: I write fiction too (space opera), and I occasionally edit other folks' fiction for real money.]
Still laughing over the other reply I got, interpreting "Show, don't tell" as "See the movie, don't read the book!"
Re:Wordy... (Score:2)
While that sounds really bad you can't judge a book by a line like that taken out of context.  Just try to read James Joyce without running across some verbiage more mangled than that, and most critics either hate him or think he's the second coming.
Re:Wordy... (Score:1)
Nah, that is the rule against meaeaninglyess exposition, and instead just to flashback for a few pages instead of having a few pages explaining it. It sounds like Salvatore is just using far too many words to descibe an action, which is to an extent a personel prefrence. However, who really expects novelizations of movies to be decent? (caveat, Waterworld's book was far better then the movie, but that wasn't hard) If the new novels have collectible covers like the old ones this one should sell well.
Re:Wordy... (Score:5, Informative)
My homegrown example goes thus:
TELLING: When I heard what he'd done, I was so angry, I've never been madder in my life, and I wanted to choke him to death!
SHOWING: When I heard what he'd done, the room went red around me, and my hands longed to feel his neck turning to pulp.
Re:Wordy... (Score:2)
Re:Wordy... (Score:1)
Eschew obfuscation
Re:Wordy... (Score:2)
heh (Score:2, Insightful)
We were all built up and excited about episode 1.
Then we saw that it sucked.
Then the rumors about Leo DiCrapio playing anakin in 2.
Then we saw that it would suck.
Luckily that didn't happen.
but here's episode 2, and we all hear that it sucks.
What I want to know is whether or not Geroge Lucas really thinks that these are quality movies he's making, or if he realizes that they are in fact made to sell the toys.
Just my opinion.
Re:heh (Score:2, Funny)
Zahn (Score:5, Insightful)
He manages to pull off what Lucas can't:
Tell a story in the Star Wars universe that keeps the pace of the movies, but at the same time leaves out the "Yippees!" and fart jokes.
Having read the screenplay and book, you can hardly blame Salvatore for the result.
He wasn't give alot of material to work with.
Re:Zahn (Score:1, Interesting)
Anyway I have to disagree with you on Salvatore. Granted there probably wasn't much there to work with but he is hardly the guy you would want to try and fill in the gaps. I have read a few of his books and can only say that this man couldn't write his name in 50 words or less. He's earned his place in literary history with an ability to crank out books fast but he's repetitive to the extreme and as the reviewer pointed out incapable of brevity even when it's needed.
Re:Zahn (Score:2)
I read those books - then one or two others - than promptly swore off all Star Wars books. While my sisters read every one (and collect the action figures and everything else), I'm content to live with the Star Wars story ending with Thrawn's death (I knew I'd remember the name).
Then again, I did read the Terry Brooks version of Episode I - after all, it was written by Terry Brooks.
Re:Zahn (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, the second two were, in my opinion, better books than the first. I found the first one to be a bit slow, but then again you have to set up before you can move on.
That being said, star wars is an epic, and that's what the best SW stories are going to be. In a (non-tragic) epic, the important people generally don't die, even when they do dangerous things (in a tragic epic, everyone dies even when they don't do dangerous things - but I'm not really fond of those). Why is it really that important to you that people have to die if they do dangerous things? Why must dangerous things result in death or it makes a book bad?
And the truth is that people get lucky in life. When you write a story, you write about those exceptional people who get lucky more than most. If a story was about truly average people, they'd be boring. If we want to read about truly average people, we can just just skip the reading and look around.
Besides, if you dislike reaslism, why do you pick up on people getting lucky (and if anyone is going to get lucky, I would imagine that a jedi master would be the sort of person who is lucky more than most), why don't you pick on people being noble so often? Most real people want to live their lives quietly in peace and comfort and really just sort of try to adapt to any hardship that comes there way. Most people would not fight an evil empire, they'd just live in it as best they can.
So why is it such a big deal that extraordinary people have extraordinary things happen to them? Let's not forget that plenty of them are, in effect, magicians. One doesn't expect the ordinary with magicians, or at least you shouldn't.
Also, you left out the part where luke goes into a jedi trance where he needs only infinitessimal amounts of oxygen and heat to survive, thus enabling him to live long enough to be stumbled upon. Convenient? Yes. Unlikely? Yes. Impossible, well, not after you've already granted the existence of the jedi.
Besides, has it not occurred to you that the book had been following Karde's ship pricesly because at some point he would be the one who ran accross luke? (Remember, luke was not in a highly unpopulated area and so it was likely that someone would eventually run accross him.) This is a not uncommon narrative device, where you start telling a bunch of independent stories and eventually tie them together. It's not that the main characters were randomly chosen and then through a series of insanely unlikely events all happen to come together. It's that an event was picked, or perhaps a few characters were picked, and whoever happened to come along was then selected and their story fleshed out.
All this being said, in my opinion the first book is best when it is dealing with Grand Admiral Thrawn, and everyone else is less interesting. In the second and third books, however, I think that his handling of the other characters is better (or one just gets used to his take on their personalities), and they're thoroughly enjoyable reading. While I could put the first book down, the second and third I couldn't stop reading.
I was a bit dissapointed with the way that Thrawn was killed. It made perfect sense, but it was a bit ... I don't know. I'd have rather than killing thrawn had been harder, even if the way he was killed made perfect sense and fit well with the rest of the plot.
Re:Zahn (Score:2)
Re:Zahn (Score:2, Informative)
It's sad that they forbid him to do stuff like that, and then let RA Salvatore kill of Chewbacca in that idiotic New Jedi Order series.
At any rate, to see Zahn close out the original set of Star Wars novels in style, check out Spectre from the Past and Vision of the Future. In a mature manner if FINALLY wraps up the story arc that continued from Return of the Jedi, and it's full of permanent changes to the original characters, so that should make you happy.
It is also missing the hellishly annoying Solo children who pervade the New Jedi Order novels. Thank god!
Let me guess... (Score:2, Redundant)
This guy is Dr. Seuss' dark side (Score:5, Funny)
Anakin raged in a cage without his mama kin
Raging rage like a tearing page set the stage
Gauge his rage with a wise mage
You'll see how Anakin can rage man can Anakin
Re:This guy is Dr. Seuss' dark side (Score:3, Funny)
Is it any suprise? (Score:3, Insightful)
Then, we find a really bad writer (Salvatore).
The book will be really _________. (Fill in the blank).
I've always liked fantasy as much as scifi, and when I have nothing else to read, I'll even tolerate the mediocre stuff. The Tracy Hickman, Marg Weiss D&D books, for instance.
So, I've ran out of all those books, and used book are only 50 cents, right? So I pick up a bunch of Salvatore's books. Bad mistake. His books aren't worth the toilet paper that they could have turned that pulp into.
I think, and don't take this as gospel, Salvatore wrote down the synopsis of all his D&D games that he (aged 9 or so) played with his cocker spaniel puppy because no one else would play with him. Then, stretching all those notes into 400 page long manuscripts, he somehow blackmailed a publisher into turning them into real books. I mean, goddamn, I didn't expect it to be the the Dragonbon Chair or anything like that, but this was absolutely unreadable. It was, and still is, the only good excuse for illiteracy. *BARF* Should have let those memories remain repressed.
How, on fucking earth, did they manage to let him novelize this? They had their pick, even some first rate authors might have wanted to do this. If nothing else, Alan Dean Foster always did a tolerable job of novelizations (though the best, probably was Orson Scott Card's "The Abyss"). The only thing I can figure, he (Salvatore) has photographic evidence of Lucas getting blowjobs from 9 yr old Thai children in return for handing over USA Top Secret military documents to a chinese agent (both on the same pic).
Yes, he is that bad.
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe I'm just not with it, but am I the only one who is reserving judgment on the movie until after I see it?
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:2)
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:4, Funny)
Yes. Yes, you are.
I was so horribly let down by TPM that I have decided to force myself (not that hard to do after hearing about senator jar jar) to have the lowest of all possible expectation for AotC. Think Police Academy 6 bad. If AotC is better than Police Academy 6, I'll be happy.
The key happiness is having very low expectations.
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:2)
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:2)
Yeah, I think I did, as a matter of fact. It was a Midnight Movie at the Cobb Madison Square 8. It cost me a buck to get in. It was worth a lot more than that. I had *fun* with the movie: talking back to the actors, laughing at inappropriate moments, throwing JuJuBees at the screen. Fun.
Somehow I don't think I'd be able to get away with that opening night of Ep2. I'll wait till my friends see it. Then I'll check out the reviews. If the movie is really bad, I'll try to get a few friends together to go see a mid-week matinee.
And I'll bring JuJuBees.
And, bad movie or not, I *will* get my money's worth.
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:2)
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:1)
The Drizzt Do'Urden books (starting with the Dark Elf Trilogy) are worthy reads, which inclines me to believe that what was missing here was not creative ability, but rather Terry Brooks's willingness to ignore the screenplay and fill in the gaping plot holes with some actual depth.
In the end, Salvatore appears to have been intimidated by the vast Star Wars franchise and has kept too close to the (very bad) screenplay instead of trusting in his own creative instincts. A pity, but not a true reflection of his talent and original works.
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:2)
If this one is really just "really bad" then Salvatore has improved more than should be possible.
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:2)
Let me guess... you've never seen The Producers [imdb.com], right?
Re:Is it any suprise? (Score:2)
Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is the name of it, should you ever want to read something good.
If you mean LoTR, the books, yes, they ended rather well. Though, I'm pretty sure even Tolkien wouldn't have said that was the "end" of that story... the man invented an entire world, with a history so complex, that nothing compares, except maybe our own (real) world. The movie? Haven't seen it yet. Not sure I want to.
SPOLERS!!!!!!!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Next thing I know, you're going to be telling us that you saw the bootlegged version and that Amidala gets killed, Jar Jar become Lando, the Millenium falcon is built, and the Empire attacks Earth, etc.. I mean, I know that all of those happen in the movie from watching the bootlegged version, but I wish you had put a spoiler warning just in case.
Re:SPOLERS!!!!!!!!! (Score:1)
Re:SPOLERS!!!!!!!!! (Score:1)
Anakin becomes Darth Vader.
Yeah, I had never guessed that Anakin was going to give into the Dark Side at some point.
My bad.
Dooku/separatists (Score:2, Informative)
First of all Dooku left the Jedi Order after the Battle of Naboo. He left because he felt the Jedi betrayed themselves by serving the corrupt republic.
Dooku joined the separatists, because, in a nutshell, the Republic is dead. The bureaucrats rule, not the voters. So Dooku wants to secede from the Republic and create the Confederacy of Indepnedent Systems.
Here's where Darth Sidious comes in: He (as Palpatine) creates the clone army to counter the Separatists' droid army (secretly), and later, to eliminate the Jedi. Also, the separatists are kind of a conglomeration of guilds and unions like the Trade Federation, Techno Union, and others.
Finally, Dooku is described as a fencer, and he uses a lightsaber with a curved handle. And he can use Sith lightning. And yes, I bought the book on April 23.
Re:Dooku/separatists (Score:1)
Re:Dooku/separatists (Score:2)
The original Star Wars trilogy was so good because it didn't use cliche, didn't have a bunch of well-known actors, and had some things that were fairly inconceivable.
I haven't seen II yet, but in I he has done the following:
1. Turned the force into a scientifically measurable thing. (Mitochondria^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H midi-chlorians) This destroys the mythico-religious symbolism, which was damned important in the later episodes.
2. Changed Obi-wan's master. In IV his master was Yoda. In I it was Qui-gon. Hmmm.
3. The movies don't even *look* related. How is Lucas going to explain the change in spacecraft design from I and II to IV-VI? The nice thing about SW was that the spacecraft were very polygon-oriented in design, not curvaceous. It looked more *real* compared to modern technology.
4. The dialog in the fight scenes in IV-VI made the fights more "human"... it gave the fights meaning instead of just fighting for the fighting. There wasn't any of this in I.
5. Obi-wan was humble in IV, and it seemed in the original trilogy, the example of a Jedi was a quiet, thoughtful warrior. In I, the Jedi were arrogant, and violence was the first choice, rather than using problem-solving thought process. There was not much "I don't want to fight" and a lot of "I'm going to kick your fscking ass."
6. Jar-Jar Binks. Enough said.There lies the problems. Lucas should have let fans create the prequels. I guarantee they would have done a better job.
Re:Dooku/separatists (Score:2)
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, but...
>>2. Changed Obi-wan's master. In IV his master was Yoda. In I it was Qui-gon. Hmmm.<<
Yoda teaches all the younger Jedi before they are taken in as Padawan's by full-fledged Jedi...and Yoda did take a personal interest in Anakin since he saw the danger, so it is possible that Yoda was much closer to Obi-wan after Qui-Gon's death, in order to keep an eye on Anakin and to help assist Obi-wan in what he knew was dangerous to do in the first place
>>3. The movies don't even *look* related. How is Lucas going to explain the change in spacecraft design from I and II to IV-VI? The nice thing about SW was that the spacecraft were very polygon-oriented in design, not curvaceous. It looked more *real* compared to modern technology.<<
Lucas did explain this. Simply put, Ep I is of a different time period, a different way of thinking. Especially on Naboo, but otherwise, doesnt Obi-wan say in Ep IV that "it was a simpler time" when giving Luke the lightsabre? The original trilogy is a time of conflict, rebellion and unease...in times like that people tend to worship function over form (ie Millenium Falcon)...when at peace, form is desired over function.
>>4. The dialog in the fight scenes in IV-VI made the fights more "human"... it gave the fights meaning instead of just fighting for the fighting. There wasn't any of this in I.<<
In Ep IV, there were three Jedi alive that we know of, so not including Yoda, the only Jedi fight scene we see have volumes of meaning behind them:
a. Vader/Kenobi, we know how much history there is there;
b. Vader/Luke, damn, he's telling him he's his father, there's gonna be some banter going on in that conflict;
c. Vader/Luke(Ep VI), same sort of thing as the first fight, except the Emperor is there to try to turn Luke;
...in Ep I, you had two Jedi fight who did not know each other, hence, what did they really have to say to each other?? would you really have preferred Obi-wan to scream "YOU KILLED MY MASTER!!" a la old kung-fu movies?
>>5. Obi-wan was humble in IV, and it seemed in the original trilogy, the example of a Jedi was a quiet, thoughtful warrior. In I, the Jedi were arrogant, and violence was the first choice, rather than using problem-solving thought process. There was not much "I don't want to fight" and a lot of "I'm going to kick your fscking ass."<<
Sure, Obi-wan was humble in Ep IV, he was old, he'd had years to study and become closer to the force, the same reason Yoda is always so chilled out. In Ep I, you tend to neglect the notion that Obi-wan was the student, he was young and brash
>>6. Jar-Jar Binks. Enough said.There lies the problems. Lucas should have let fans create the prequels. I guarantee they would have done a better job.<<
yeah, Jar Jar sucked...I felt IQ points being sucked out of my head as I watched him in Ep I. The fans couldnt have created the prequels, however, because it was George's story, he already had the idea in his head, for the most part...stretching it over 3 prequels to simply tell background is a stretch maybe...we'll see, i personally think Ep II is gonna kick ass.
Re:Dooku/separatists (Score:2)
This is not mentioned in episode II.
2. Changed Obi-wan's master. In IV his master was Yoda. In I it was Qui-gon. Hmmm.
I believe Qui-gon died before Obi-wan became a fully fledged Jedi. In any case why is it not possible to have more than 1 master?
3. The movies don't even *look* related. How is Lucas going to explain the change in spacecraft design from I and II to IV-VI? The nice thing about SW was that the spacecraft were very polygon-oriented in design, not curvaceous. It looked more *real* compared to modern technology.
Any reason he has to? Maybe it's the influence of imperialist thinking, and the desperation of the alliance to come up with workable designs. I doubt Lucas will bother to explain it (nor should he).
4. The dialog in the fight scenes in IV-VI made the fights more "human"... it gave the fights meaning instead of just fighting for the fighting. There wasn't any of this in I.
Having had some training in swordfighting, I doubt I'd be saying much. Darth maul obviously just wasn't much of a conversationalist.
5. Obi-wan was humble in IV, and it seemed in the original trilogy, the example of a Jedi was a quiet, thoughtful warrior. In I, the Jedi were arrogant, and violence was the first choice, rather than using problem-solving thought process. There was not much "I don't want to fight" and a lot of "I'm going to kick your fscking ass."
Obi-wan is much older in episode IV, in fact I think his development in edpisode 2 is quite interesting. It's true the Jedi are more active and violent, but in the first trilogy they are desperately hiding from the Empire, not masters of all they survey. There is actually a comment in AOTC about the jedi having become arrogant.
6. Jar-Jar Binks. Enough said.There lies the problems. Lucas should have let fans create the prequels. I guarantee they would have done a better job.
I'm sure they couldn't have even made a coherent movie, let alone have complied with every tine continuity detail. And Jar-jar is only in AOTC to screw up royally in the senate, he doesn't even get any slapstick in.
In short, having seen AOTC I think it is much better than TPM, especially from the viewpoint of a fan of the original trilogy. It has some flaws, the "romantic" scenes in particular are pretty ordinary - I almost thought I was watching Dawson's Creek at one point. I also think they could have come up with a better title. Nothing's going to satisfy the die-hard fans, but it's a very enjoyable movie.
Re:Dooku/separatists (Score:2)
Oh come now... I've had some training in swordfighting too, and I *love* Princess Bride-style conversation during swordplay, don't you?
I'll take your recommendation on AOTC. Though I still think that's gotta be the lamest name it could have. "The Clone War" would have been much better.
Re:Dooku/separatists (Score:2)
Oh come now... I've had some training in swordfighting too, and I *love* Princess Bride-style conversation during swordplay, don't you? :)
Fun maybe, but definately not advisable when facing a lightsabre wielding maniac. But then they are not supposed to be super-realistic movies, the problem with knowing about these things is that I find myself thinking "I would have stabbed him in the left lung just about there".
I'll take your recommendation on AOTC. Though I still think that's gotta be the lamest name it could have. "The Clone War" would have been much better.
I wouldn't call it a fantastic movie (apart from the FX), but I wouldn't let a hate of TPM stop you from seeing it.
Re:Dooku/separatists (Score:2)
At the very end of the movie, Yoda says "Begun this Clone War has".
The title 'The Clone War' would be have been more fitting for Episode 3 then 2, however it obviously will not be the title now due to itbeing too damn similar to 'Attack of the Clones'.
Lucas has said that Episode 3 is going to be dark, so I'm guessing the name will be more like 'The Fall of the Jedi' or something. The simple fact of the matter is that Lucus uses pretty simple Episode names.
Re:Dooku/separatists (Score:2)
If you look at what WWII era fighter planes looked like compared with a modern-day F-15, you'll see the same curve to polygon evolution over roughly the same time period.
Re:Dooku/separatists (Score:2)
Problem with Lucas (Score:2, Interesting)
So C3P0 and R2D2 come about when, in truth, there is no need for them. Fett's story is (re)created and explained (why not just use the story that was originally given and leave it out of the movies?), &c, &c.
He would likely have more luck if he wouldn't attempt to throw in everything for everyone and just try to write a story.
I will reserve judgment on this movie until I see it, however, some of the things that Lucas has been doing with the story in an effort to make it widely appeal are just frustrating.
Re:Problem with Lucas (Score:2)
Maybe he didn't recognize 3P0 in gold... Yeah, that's the ticket.
Yippee! (Score:3, Insightful)
Way Back (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Way Back (Score:3, Insightful)
Lucas's problem: Plot Does Matter. (Score:4, Interesting)
Another idea (Score:2, Informative)
Thanks Lucas for making spoilers readily available before the film is even released.
-Evan
Re:Another idea (Score:2)
The cash cow ceases for no one!
othello. (Score:1)
that was my favorite part of othello.
Big Mistake (Score:2, Insightful)
the problem is, is that there was a lot missing in the movie that was in the book.
-another pod race
-more character developement
-better fight scenes
plus, without the movie, there is no difference between the other books (shadows of the empire for example) and this one.
i noticed that this one came out a week or two later than the other one did, tatical move perhaps?
About Star Wars books, revisionism, and chronology (Score:5, Interesting)
Greetings,
A few posters in this thread complained that Lucas may be trying to fill too much backstory in the current Star Wars I-III movies, that the continuity isn't there, or that there is too much detail. To all of you, I would advise you to read the novel "Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker", by George Lucas, written in the 1970's. A new edition was printed in the 1990's, tied with the re-release of the movies.
A lot of the backstory that Lucas refers to today in the movies is explained in a one page prologue "written by Senator Leia Organa" of Alderaan. The Trade Federation, Emperor Palpatine, the Clone Wars, Skywalkers' abilities as pilots running in the family, the relationship between Luke Skywalker and Biggs (who is jarring in the movie because they greet like old friends in Yavin-4 but viewers don't know *why*), etc. are all mentioned in that book.
The Star Wars movie novelizations of the first trilogy were better written, and in the case of Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back they add significant backstory that explains why some things happen the way they do in the movie. So far The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones seem to adhere to that chronology.
There are also a few glaring discrepancies that are later kludged to fix (i.e. like Darth Vader being Luke's father), but they are forgivable in the context of the whole saga. One of the most important ones is that in Star Wars, Tatooine is an unimportant planet in the outer rim of the galaxy, yet it's in every movie except for TESB. Lots of things going on in that little, unimportant planet. Finally, there are a few screenplay drafts (for the original Star Wars movie) written by Lucas that you can find on the 'Net, that also provide interesting backstory.
I mention this because a lot of people don't realize that what Mr. Lucas has been saying all along, that he had the underpinnings of the story worked out long ago, is probably true. Read the book, and then make judgement.
My copy of "Star Wars" is in Spanish (the Editorial Argos Vergara Edition, "La Guerra de las Galaxias" of 1977-78) and I left it in my native country, so I'm quoting by memory here. I read it at least 30 times when I was 11 or so, and I remember the prologue quite well because it didn't say the same things as the yellow scroll at the beginning of the movie. I tried Google-ing for a reference to this prologue but couldn't find one. Can someone transcribe it or post a link?
(Also, there was a Star Wars book that chronicled the first duel between Vader and Skywalker published in 1978 or 1979 titled The Mind's Eye, by Alan Dean Foster. I have a copy back home, but I've never seen it in the US. That story takes place at some point between Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back; it explored some interesting backstory issues but didn't hint of Vader being Skywalker's father.)
As far as novelizations from the movies (or from the screenplays), Star Wars by George Lucas and The Empire Strikes Back (I don't remember the author) were probably the best. The Mind's Eye by A. D. Foster was excellent, and it made me wonder if it had been a screen treatment at some point. The novelization of Return of the Jedi *sucked*, and I never bothered to read more than one the books not based on the movies because they don't capture the essence of the story the way Lucas' stories/movies do.
Cheers!
ERe:About Star Wars books, revisionism, and chronol (Score:5, Informative)
That was in the movie. It was in the first theater run of Star Wars. But the scene was cut out in additional runs, TV, VHS, DVD and the new digitally destroyed version.
It was the first scene where we saw Luke. He was saying goodbye to Biggs, who was going off to join the rebellion.
Re:About Star Wars books, revisionism, and chronol (Score:2)
Since I personally saw some of the scenes referred to at the opening of Star Wars at the Old Mill Six theatres in Palo Alto, I know that they are not pure folk tale. I don't know what print they had, but in that theater the first scene of the movie started on Tatooine with Luke looking through electronic binoculars at space, and then speeding into Tashi station to tell his friends (who were unenthusiastic).
The NPR playhouse version adds quite a bit more backstory describing why the ships were there in the first place, and adding extra scenes with Biggs and a speeder canyon race.
None of those were present in the version I saw, but I did see them tease Luke about Biggs, and there were several other changes throughout the movie including changes to the holoprojector images, and one scene that was cut from the first fight and added to the millenium falcon fight.
Re:About Star Wars books, revisionism, and chronol (Score:2)
I'm not telling you about a friend of a friend whose great aunt says she saw it, I'm telling you first hand.
Re:Original Star Wars novel prologue (Score:2)
Thanks for the post.
Cheers!
E
Re:About Star Wars books, revisionism, and chronol (Score:2)
I politely disagree with this view. The original Star Wars book reads still like a screenplay novelization. I wish A. D. Foster had a hand at it! The writing is much more lyric in The Mind's Eye than anything Lucas wrote. The brittle dialog in the book has Lucas' fingerprints all over it. Can you confirm the Foster rumour? I would be curious to discover Foster's take on the whole thing.
Also: A. D. Foster's adaptation of Alien rocked.
Cheers!
E
Watch those assumptions (Score:2)
Do we have any real degree of certainty that Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, Emperor Palpatine, and Darth Sidious are the same person . . . ?
Everything that follows is nothing more that a wild ass guess on my part.
My guess is that Sidious cloned himself (with modifications to make the clone a sniveling weakling) and manipulated him into the big chair and is going to disappear him in EP3: The Chickens Come Home to Roost (tCCHtR).
I mean, come on. No matter how "difficult to see, the dark side is" the amount of time he spends around Jedi in EP1 and 2 would have to cause a tremor or two if Sidious and Palpatine were one and the same.
Oh, and there is no immaculate conception . . . Anikin is a clone that was planted (and implanted) by . . . someone. I'll go out on a limb and guess that it was Sidious.
But my SWAGs have been wrong in the past. I was sure that Kitster was going to end up Boba Fett.
Finally, if all you have to say is along the lines "Lucas is a tool, Jar-Jar sucks, Lucas is out of touch with his fans, he just wants to sell lunch boxes and play with digital toys, etc" why don't you check the "Star Wars Prequels" box on your homepage preferences? I'm glad you have an opinion, but you aren't adding anything to the discussion. It is trollish, and amounts to crapfloding at this point.
-Peter
Re:Watch those assumptions (Score:1)
Re:Watch those assumptions (Score:2)
I think that red senate guards -> Imperial guards is good reasoning, but red Senate guards -> Palpatine is not a clone is quite a stretch.
The line where he tells Anikin that he doesn't need guidance is a bigger hole.
Except that he would, by virtue of his genetics, be strong in the force as well (though clearly not trained). And if Anikin were, say, his biological son, he might be drawn to him without any alterer motive. And his temperament would still be like Sidious. Everything is proceeding as he has foreseen it
Beyond that the book goes on about how comfortable Anikin is with him, like they are peers in spite of the fact that Palpatine is leader of the free galaxy. Who is more your peer than your biological twin . . . ?
Also note that Lucas says that he likes to "riff" or do variations on a theme. A corny example is "I have a bad feeling about this." I think there is going to be a deeper parallel, like this:
Jango Fett = Sidious: The "source"
Boba Fett = Anikin: The "pure clone" (or "favorite son")
Clone Army = Palpatine: The "impure clones" (or "utility clones")
This will only make sense if you have read the book or seen the movie.
-Peter
* Of course, "natural" clones would not have the same finger prints, etc. But with the technology involved here I'm sure Sidious (and the Kaminoans?) could overcome this.
Re:Watch those assumptions (Score:2)
I like how they emphasize lineage of the training... Yoda trained Dooku who trained Qui Gon Jin who trained Obi-Wan who trained Anakin. I'd still be curious where Sidious's training came from. Also unclear in the film is who exactly ordered the clones. The Kaminoans say a Jedi Master ordered them, but when Obi-Wan reports back to Yoda and Mace, he expresses his belief that that particular master had been dead when the order was placed. We think Dooku was against the Republic at that point, since he was in aliance with the Trade Federation, but did Palpatine/Sidious himself place the order or was there another pawn involved?
Re:Watch those assumptions (Score:2)
-Peter
Re:Watch those assumptions (Score:2)
Okay, I hate to sound like an English major (which I'm not), but here we go.
We have mitochondria, not midichloirians. And they don't whisper the will of the Force at us (at least as far as you know
But, because the story is really about us, things work the same in the story as they do for us, in the absence of a symbolic or plot reason for something scientific to work differently.
And think about it, which is an easier Sci-Fi sell; that (identical) twins long ago in a galaxy far, far away have identical finger prints, or that in this society where cloning is a given the technology exists to make a more "perfect" clone?
Star Wars looks like our own future, and is described as someone else's past, but it is about our present.
-Peter
Dark Elf books (Score:5, Insightful)
But then I recently picked up one of the latest Dark Elf books... ech. I couldn't get into it. The writing was just too bad. I guess this is what age does to you. The Star Wars books really aren't targetted at intelligent late-20 or 30-somethings. They're for teens who like D&D and Dragonlance (and adults who never grew out of it).
One thing I will give kudos to Salvatore for: he has a talent for describing fight scenes. I think the reviewer found this annoying, but that aspect of his books has traditionally been their saving grace: if you want to read a book of detailed fight scenes with a bit of plot in-between, pick up a Salvatore book. Remember my "13 year old" audience theory -- flowery writing and complex plots aren't necessarily cool to most. Lots of fights are. Not too many of my friends liked Tolkien in high school, but there sure were a lot of Dragonlance fans.
No doubt for a series like Star Wars, this probably looked like a good choice on paper.
Excellent fight scenes (Score:2, Informative)
This will probably get flagged as offtopic, but here goes anyway:
If you do want some really excellent fight scenes in a novel, (and no, I don't consider "In a blinding flash of steel it was over" to be a good fight), then you should check out Joel Rosenberg's Guardian's of the Flame series.
The series list is as follows:
The Sleeping Dragon
The Sword and the Chain
The Silver Crown
The Heir Apparent
The Warrior Lives
The Road to Ehvenor
The Road Home
Not Exactly the Three Musketeers
I've read through The Road to Ehvenor and felt that some of the strength of the novels had petered out around that point (Ehvenor was still good, just in a different way), but the first five books are phenomenal. The story is slick, the magic is interesting, the world and characters's grow over time and it definitely has a depth of humanity, but with all that, I think it was the fight's that did it for me.
Anyway, if you have the money and the time, give them a chance, it's a wothwhile read.
Re:Excellent fight scenes (Score:2)
Funny Change... (Score:1)
But seriously, who the heck would want to read the book before the movie? Especially since the book was based on the movie (rather than the other way around)... its just plain plot spoilage. I guess you could make the argument that the book is faster to download than the movie (assuming pirated copies of both), but thats about it.
The movie looks to be decent. Thus, I will wait until it comes out to see it. I will not read a cheesy version of the script, written so it looks like a novel (but is really just the script. I mean, its kind of obvious when a "book" includes choreography...)
But this seems like a brilliant way to make money for Lucas. All he had to do was give the script for the movie to some schmoe author and say "Remove the stage directions, and make it look like a novel." No work, and I am sure they'll get some decent royalties from people buying the book to get a preview of the movie.
Fight Scenes (Score:1, Informative)
Boba Fett and the lost history (Score:2, Interesting)
Book violence less graphic than movie? (Score:1, Interesting)
/.ers out there with kids (or those thinking of taking young children to the movie) beware!
* Beheadings
* Arms cut off sans blood
* Monsters eating 'people'
* A village massacre (implied women/children too)
* Soldiers/Jedi knights killed various ways
* A boy holding his "father's" head!
Personally, this movie was an amalgamation of Braveheart, Gladiator, Jurassic Park, 5th Element, all previous Star Wars movies, and Lord of the Rings. Needless to say I was extremely disappointed and glad I didn't waste my money.
See the movie before taking the kids and you'll see what I mean. Lucas must have tremendous power in Hollywood with his 1 trick pony.
Re:Book violence less graphic than movie? (Score:2)
I think the biggest danger you incur when you go see AOTC is that your optic nerve might be severed from constant involuntary eye-rolling brought on by the terrible dialogue and battle sequences in AOTC. (Spoiler for parents: Please tell them that if someone ever confesses to them they slaughtered a village of innocent children, they should react not by hugging them and telling them it's OK, but by calling the police and making sure the perpetrator rots in jail. Yes, I'm looking at you, Ms. Ex-queen!)
Book vs Movie cost (Score:2)
Let he who casts the first stone... (Score:1)
Is this like the rule where any post correcting anothers grammer or spelling, invariably contains an obvious error in grammer or spelling?
If you are going to critic another persons writing for being full of redundant descriptive passages shouldn't you be extra careful to not make the same mistake?
Yawn... (Score:2)
As good as Back to the Future 2 (the book)? (Score:2)
Hopefully Star Wars Episode 2 will do better. Afterall, we all know books made about movies are typically some of the best reads... And books made about TV shows are usually even better!
I imagine Star Wars Episode 2 (the book) will probably probably inspire a lot of grade school children to put forth that extra effort come book report time. It books like this that really boost comprehension and teach kids the joy of reading.
Book not as bad (Score:2, Interesting)
his Mother. Of course I thought Jedi would have to do with the accidental death of her and he'd get pissed off at them, but this works as well.
Question (Score:2)
I swear, one day my head is going to explode from the cognitive dissonance of it all...
Re:Question (Score:2)
It's all about the Benjamins.
Attack of the Clones Script and Trailers (Score:2)
R.A. Salvatore is a worthless hack (Score:2)
The Phantom Menace (Score:2, Interesting)
I agree with earlier posters. The magic is gone with the Star Wars series. EP1's visual polish only helped to further distance it from Ep4-6's feel. I like the older, grainier look of the original trilogy. It presented a harsh, gritty reality of dirty spaceports and slimy aliens and people struggling to get overcome ridiculous odds. What's Episode 1? Gloss and polish and render farm fmv. Those guys worked their asses off to make 4-6 using PHYSICAL models of everything! What's Episode 1? An air-conditioned office full of dweebs trying to get Jar-Jar's skin to be sufficiently flappy.
It'll be nice if the new movie recaptures some of the heart of 4-6, but I think the odds are not favorable. End Rant.
My predictions: (Score:3, Insightful)
Here are my predictions for episode 2:
disclaimer: I list myself as a moderate fan who has seen episode 4,5,6 a gizzilan times on TV 4,5,6 special edition once, christmas special once, and episode 1 twice.
There will be tons of boring dialog consiting of wooden actors and tons of soul-less computer generated aliens used to replicate the puppet mastery of 70s.
The love between the princess and anakin will be completely fabricated and unrealistic. Probably using the tired forbidden love motif we have all seen before.
Scenes with Jarjar will be minimized (obvious point) given the negative feedback from episode I.
There will be another unbelievable car chase scene to prove that anakin is a greatest starfighter pilot ever. ho-hum.
There will be another intense lightsaber duel with a gimmic like the dual bladed light saber seen in episode one.
We will learn more about yoda demistifing the character making him/her/it less interesting IMHO.
Will do well at the box office. Which is George Lucas' primary goal anyway.
Will leave most hardcore fans secretly disappointed but unphased since they will see episode 3.
Most moderate fans will force themselves to enjoy the film just becasue it is Star Wars.
Playa haters will hate it no matter how good or bad it is just because it is popular.
Re:My predictions: (spoilers in here!) (Score:2)
The love between the princess and anakin will be completely fabricated and unrealistic. Probably using the tired forbidden love motif we have all seen before.
Scenes with Jarjar will be minimized (obvious point) given the negative feedback from episode I.
There will be another unbelievable car chase scene to prove that anakin is a greatest starfighter pilot ever. ho-hum.
There will be another intense lightsaber duel with a gimmic like the dual bladed light saber seen in episode one.
We will learn more about yoda demistifing the character making him/her/it less interesting IMHO.
Why bother to post this when you've obviously downloaded the movie on VCD already?
Yes, every one of these is absolutely true. Not to mention a lot of inside jokes, namely, at least 3 hands being cut off, and a "i've got a bad feeling about this" which will cause one mighty cheering from the audience.
However, you left out that there's also a goodly chunk of plot to make you go "oohhhh.. now I get it" and a couple of reversals in the plot to leave you wondering how ep3 will tie it together. I've got some ideas on how it'll play out, namely that there's going to have to be one mighty betrayal other than Anakin becoming James Earl Jones, and that all the Jedi are going to get totally blindsided by it to the extent that the vast majority of them get the quick trip to the other side...
All in all, it's worth watching. But yeah, you get complainers no matter what you do. At least JarJar only talks three times and those are mercifully short.
Re:My predictions: (spoilers in here!) (Score:2)
From someone who watched ep 2.. (Score:2)
No. The first bit with the Amidala landing and explosion (which is 10 seconds into the movie; don't worry
The love between the princess and anakin will be completely fabricated and unrealistic. Probably using the tired forbidden love motif we have all seen before.
Not exactly. It's a bit rough at first, but it becomes believable. And it's a subplot, not some sort of stupid thing shoved in your face (Anakin's pod race in #1).
Jar-Jar's role is much less lighthearted here.
There will be another unbelievable car chase scene to prove that anakin is a greatest starfighter pilot ever. ho-hum.
There is a cool-looking scene where there is a car chase. It's a few minutes -- not too long, not too short. And it's not bad.
There will be another intense lightsaber duel with a gimmic like the dual bladed light saber seen in episode one.
Actually, no. While Lucas does do the "this is here in the movie because I can do this" thing like he did in 1 (making a pod race, jar jar, battle scene, and sabre scene being the 4 corner stones of a 1hr plot), it's not too gimmicky. He's learning to not stretch it. It's not perfect, but it's not grating.
We will learn more about yoda demistifing the character making him/her/it less interesting IMHO.
Nope. Yoda's still Yoda. The digital version of him looks fine. Fluid like Jar-Jar. I'm not going to spoil anything about it.
Will leave most hardcore fans secretly disappointed but unphased since they will see episode 3.
If a hardcore fan is disapointed, I'll be surprised. I'm not a Star Wars fan, but I know what I don't hate. And I didn't hate ep 2 -- I enjoyed it.
If you're so set on forming an opinion before it's opened in theatres, go get the VCD. Or come to my house and you can watch it on my setup (I'll even lend you the VCDs if you want).
Size Matters (Score:2)
Re:Novels (Score:2)
After these quick pitches, a screenplay is written by a team of writers. Then re-writen. And then interpreted by the Producer and the Director.
And THEN, once the movie's done, the novelization is written.
I believe that the current buzz is that Eps. 7-9 are a myth. There is a wide selection of Star Wars novels (and graphic novels, which share the same continuity) written after Ep. 6. Each of these novels is written by lucasfilm, and continuity is, I believe, rather stricly controlled.
R.A. Salvatore, btw, probably got this book deal for doing the dirty deed and killing off a major character in the novels. (No, I'm not going to say who. Read Vector Prime and find out.)
Re:Novels (Score:2)
Re:Novels (Score:1)
1: It's an important part of any fictional setting to change. It's a principle that, without which, Spider-Man would never have met Mary Jane, Star Trek would still a campy western in space, and most of Shakesphere's play been rather dull.
2: I have no idea what they were thinking, or why they decided to pull it off like that. It was a confusing scene, and seems as much to be suicide as anything else. *sigh*
AFAIK, Lucas said "kills this character this way," and Salvatore did his best. I know that Margaret Weis was actually offered the chance to write that book, and she turned it down halfway through a draft because they were so controlling.
(Speaking of writers who change their worlds...)
Re:Novels (Score:1)
Re:Lucas is dying! (Score:1)
Re:mmm Salvatore (Score:2)
He's much better than this and this is obviously just a hard copy of the script. THAT was a mistake. He could have done much more with it but I'm certain that there were restrictions upon him and so while this shouldn't reflect on Salvatore (on that I agree) it's still an awful example of literature in any form.