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Pittsburgh Launches Large, Free, Public WiFi Network 226

Posted by timothy from the why-not-knoxville dept.
Snkscore writes: "Pittsburgh launched an outdoor public Wi-Fi network on Monday. The story here from cnet talks about their plan to cover 4sq miles of downtown Pittsburgh with 10Mb internet access and charge a $20/month access fee (cheap!!). I think this is the coolest thing. Next, I think they should setup access points along the train tracks." Update: 05/21 18:59 GMT by T : Garbled URL fixed now -- sorry 'bout that.
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Pittsburgh Launches Large, Free, Public WiFi Network More

Pittsburgh Launches Large, Free, Public WiFi Network

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  • Uh... (Score:1, Redundant)

    by autocracy ( 192714 )
    Anybody actually check that link? It's uh, ethereal :)

  • Community WiFis (Score:2, Interesting)

    by glenstar ( 569572 )
    I have been trying to get my city (small suburban community north of Seattle) to do something like this for quite some time. It is definitely technically doable, but politically a no-go. My firm has discussed doing a guerilla-style implementation.

    Anyone have any stories about pulling something like that off?

    • Check out NYC Wireless [nycwireless.net]. They started with just a node or two. Don't know how many now, but I hear it's going well. They also have plenty of links to other resources and HOWTOs.

    • As someone who dwells "north of Seattle," I am curious to know what city it is that you mean. I've done the 802.11 game before, so I know some of the issues at hand.

      Very interesting.

    • Oh really? Which suburban community would that be?

      *I* live in Seattle and I'd love to live in a neighborhood with high-speed access, especially now that WinFirst has made it clear that they won't be providing FTTH in the Seattle market within the forseeable future.

      On the other hand, I can't be the only person who feels just a little uncomfortable swimming around in a constant RF bath.

      But then I don't imagine that a Farady suit would be all that workable, either. ;)

  • $20/m == free? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by sehryan ( 412731 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:17PM (#3559894)
    How exactly does $20/m equal a free network?

    PS the link to the article is messed up.
    • Well, most CDs are $15-20, too, and most slashdroids steal them... so I'm assuming they think this is no different.

      - A.P.

      • I don't know of anyone that steals CDs. I know quite a few that download mp3s of songs they are interested in though. Hardly the same, especially since it appears to drive up sales of CDs as well, which would seem to jive with the stories of most who download mp3 to decide what they like and then buy the CDs.

    • Ah, now that I found the article on Cnet, it is currently free, but once the full network is up it will cost $20/m.

    • Re:$20/m == free? (Score:2, Informative)

      by Mr Guy ( 547690 )
      The network, which became available for public use on Monday, is free to use for now. Organizers envision charging $20 a month for access once the network, covering a 4-square-mile area of downtown Pittsburgh, is built, according to Executive Director Ron Gdovic.
      Well, since the click through didn't work, I guess we can only hit you a little bit for not reading the article first.
    • Obvious the title and blurb are misleading. But a quick glance at the article shows that:
      The network, which became available for public use on Monday, is
      free to use for now. Organizers envision charging $20 a month for access once the network
    • I was hoping it meant "free as in freedom". I'd gladly pay $20/month for that.

      Of course, I can already predict that someone's just going to tell me that anyone willing to part with $20 in exchange for freedom deserves neither the $20 nor the freedom...
      • First of all, how does "free as in freedom" apply here? Secondly, If you have to pay for freedom you aren't really free, are you?

  • Phones (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pagercam2 ( 533686 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:18PM (#3559898)
    This is not only important for web surfing and the like but brings up the possibility of cheap non celluar phone access. This could spawn a whole new industry, this just needs to get repeated in a few cities so that it becomes trendy and will then be adopted country wide (be the first one in your neighborhood).

    • The problem with running phones over this service is that the 802.11b network could be knocked off the air by an interfering signal.

      I wouldn't want to depend on a wireless phone that disconnects every time an amateur radio operator goes on the air.

      (Interesting side note: I worked at Intel when they were doing interoperability testing of DSL in its early days. One of the big problems that they had was that every time someone turned on their vacuum cleaner, the internet connection would get dropped. :)

      That said, such a service would be cool, and would be a good alternative for many types of communication. I just wouldn't want to rely on it for business or for calling 911.

      --Bruce

  • fixed link (Score:4, Informative)

    by jspey ( 183976 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:18PM (#3559904)
    I don't know what's up with the link in the blurb, but here's a working link to the article: http://news.com.com/2100-1033-918439.html?tag=fd_t op [com.com]

    Mr. Spey
  • link doesn't work, but this has the classic ISP problem built in... don't you have to charge your users AT LEAST your cost?

    a 10MB pipe is not cheap, and at 20 a pop is probably very poor service (technical and customer) i don't see this sticking around too long.
    • Well first, it's 10 Mb not 10 MB. But that is of course just the WIFI communication speed. Then it goes to a central server, then to the internet. So whatever the internet connection point speed is, it would probably be shared with every single user on the network (Maybe as it grows they'll add a second, third internet access point). Who knows what the actual internet access speed would be for the end user. This is much the way the cable modem works. You CAN get phenominal speeds (DL anyway) on a cable modem, as long as all your neighbors aren't all trying to do the same. But it all averages out to $40 charge for everyone even though you (I) can get 3x t-1 DL speeds.
    • Yes, but the local government is footing the bill, meaning it can recoup losses from other funds. In this case, they are doing this to attract new businesses to the area, which (in their minds) will create more than enough revenue to cover costs.

    • Re:hmmm... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by ch-chuck ( 9622 )
      It is run by 3 Rivers Connect, a nonprofit whose major source of funding is the state of Pennsylvania.

      taxes, baby. People who may never use a computer are helping to fund it. Of course it's for, ahem, their benefit, in that it should help to attract new businesses to the area, project a 'wired high tech' image and create jobs, you know, like those multi-billion $ software companies everyone wants in their tax district?
  • $20/month is very, very cheap! Double that wouldn't even buy you 56k unmetered access off-peak here in the U.K.!
    • Check the $$ rate. UK unmetered cable access is £25/month, less than $40. And I guess the Pittsburgh corporation might not be saddled with the level of debt of Telewest/NTL.
    • Yeah, its alot better than the US$30,000 I'm paying for wireless access @ CMU.

  • The real link (Score:2, Interesting)

    by BlueFall ( 141123 )
    The story is here [com.com]. As for free vs. $20, it looks like it's free for now and they want to start charging $20 eventually.

  • What if someone steals a connection? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Limburgher ( 523006 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:24PM (#3559956) Homepage Journal
    If they NAT it to all their friends, would they be the Pittburgh Pirates?
  • What a great way to launch a virus - a free wireless network.
  • At first I thought, "hooray."

    But now I am thinking...is this so great? What is the obvious outcome of a city-wide public wireless network? For one thing, it means a blossoming of software and music piracy, not to mention child pronography. This could cause the kind of community outrage that ensures that the DMCA will never be repealed.

    Remember the saying, "a blessing in the form of a gift may be a curse." I think that is what we have here.

    A curse.

    • Re:such a good idea? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Nothinman ( 22765 )
      I'm curious how you think a (currently)free wireless Internet connection is going to make music piracy and child pr0n any more popular?

      Just because I can connect to the Internet from the Point doesn't mean I immediately go download unreleased CDs or naked 8 year olds.
    • For one thing, it means a blossoming of software and music piracy, not to mention child pronography

      Not in Penn. Their ISP are regulated to keep out the kiddie porn. Gotta love those state officials and their thoughtfull freedom restri^^^protecting during an election year. [slashdot.org]
    • Given the area that they're covering, I doubt it. I would assume that porn in public spaces is not as popular as porn in your home. This wifi network appears to cover some popular public parks, and a *lot* of office buildings. It seems unlikely that the clerks or shoppers at Kaufman's are going be pirating music while riding the old wooden escalator. Especially given the really low bitrate an individual is likely to receive.

      Allowing wifi on the trolley sounds like a great idea, too (at least for me ;-). When I ride the trolly, there's at least another 15 people on board. Again, it's a public space. Same goes for the cafes that my ISP, Telerama, is covering. We're mostly talking about students who are working on research/homework, or addicted to the web (and coffee).

      -Paul Komarek
      • Allowing wifi on the trolley sounds like a great idea, too (at least for me ;-).

        Man, that would be great. Right now I commute about 45min over public transit each way, spending more of that online and able to work would me excellent.

  • On the Train Tracks (Score:5, Insightful)

    by skroz ( 7870 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:27PM (#3559978) Homepage
    If your goal is to have access while on the train, wouldn't it be cheaper to outfit the TRAIN with access points and have a single data connection from the train to some home base? They already have some form of communication with the station anyway. It would be MUCH cheaper to retrofit that line on each passenger train and equip each passenger train with WAPs.
    • If your goal is to have access while on the train, wouldn't it be cheaper to outfit the TRAIN with access points and have a single data connection from the train to some home base?
      THAT way, if you lived near the tracks, you could just leave netstumbler on and it'd BING! every time a train passed!
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Wireless on the train has been done [amtrak.com], sort of. Amtrak Acela (northeast corridor), Hiawathas (Chicago) and Capitols (SF Bay Area) provide wireless internet access. But only with their computers, not yours.
  • If I lived in pitts, I would expect my tax dollars to pay for crap like this that noone asked for. Meanwhile, people who worry about cellphone radiation appear undaunted by the massive amount of RF floating through them as they sing tra la la on their way to work. As I recall, someone tried this in a different city not too long ago, and couldn't figure out exactly how to keep people off the network without breaking cost and technical barriers presented by radius type stuff in the sizes required by metro users. I give the typical "Alice Cooper Restraunt Syndrome" rating - 3 months till bankruptcy or until these people just give up. In closing... Tax Dollars to infrastructure providers prevents stupid behavior on the part of entreprenuers with no real good ideas.

  • What a great way... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Pinball Wizard ( 161942 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:30PM (#3559999) Homepage Journal
    to bring business to and revitalize a city. Especially a city like Pittsburgh, which I'm sure is trying to be more than just an old industrial steel center.


    10 MB/s is almost 7x as fast as a T1. I could see this attracting lots of businesses, and lots of geeks to Pittsburgh.


    Yeah it costs taxpayer money, but so does giving tax breaks, and so does building convention centers. To me this is a smarter way to attract business to your city. I hope others follow suit.

    • Re:What a great way... (Score:2, Informative)

      by Zelet ( 515452 )
      Read the article... it was a typo... it is supposed to be 10 Mb (small b)/sec.

      Sorry to squash your (and my) dreams of having that fat of a pipe to play in.

    • Re:What a great way... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by dreamt ( 14798 )
      Well, just a quick note, Pittsburgh is very much NOT a steel city any more. Its not quite the high-tech city that somewhere like Boston is, but still is pretty high-tech. (I'm orig from Pgh, but live in Boston now).

      I don't even think that there are any working steel mills within 10-15 miles of the city, maybe even further. There is, however, CMU [cmu.edu], the supercomputing center [psc.edu], UPMC medical center [upmc.edu] and a whole bunch of other research facilities.
    • The article says:

      "We're looking to help Pittsburgh...be perceived as a wired city"

      Don'tchya just love how the goal is to create a perception? Any degree to which they actually *do* wire the city is merely incidental. Sigh.

      -
  • According to the article, "The network, which became available for public use on Monday, is free to use for now. Organizers envision charging $20 a month for access once the network, covering a 4-square-mile area of downtown Pittsburgh, is built, according to Executive Director Ron Gdovic."

    Obviously the network is freely accesable for now, in the near future it will be $20/mo (probably going to go way up after that).

  • Along train tracks... (Score:5, Funny)

    by dstone ( 191334 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:32PM (#3560011) Homepage
    Next, I think they should setup access points along the train tracks.

    I agree. Think of the 1337 h0b05. 0wn1n6 all the train commuters' wireless notebooks & PDAs. Good stuff.

  • not new in pittsburgh (Score:5, Informative)

    by techstep ( 80533 ) <jeffer@NOSPAM.techstep.org> on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:33PM (#3560020)
    I guess the newest thing about this is the proposed contiguous range. But public wireless service in Pittsburgh isn't a new idea. Telerama [telerama.com] has been offering free wireless service for the better part of a year, but mostly at coffeeshops and a few restaurants. While this is a far cry from the four square miles of coverage 3 Rivers Connect offers, it's hard to beat "free", especially outside of the downtown area.

    One of the big problems with wireless connectivity around Pittsburgh is the local topology. There are lots of hills and valleys and comparatively little flat land. This has made cellular service rather unreliable in a lot of cases, and makes wireless service difficult outside of short ranges (at least, outside the relatively flat downtown area). It'll be a while before both providers offer service beyond small ranges, but it's a promising start all the same.

  • Next, I think they should setup access points along the train tracks.

    Nice idea, but it wouldn't work. The 'cell' size of WiFi is very small. At standard (or even slow) train speeds, you'd be in and out of the cell before your laptop can handshake with the access point.
    • If you use omni antennas, yes.

      If you take 2 very narrow beamwidth sector antennas, and have 2 on each pole pointing in each direction, then you only cover the track. This highly increases your dbi. Also the power limits on directional antennas are more leniant, meaning you can pump something like 250mw to the antennas as opposed to 100.

      Still, you'd need one about every few miles, making it rather inconvenient and costly.
      • Granted, I did not consider directional (ie, high gain) antennae.

        However, 'pointing it down the tracks' typically means attempting to send the radio radiation longditudinally through the train, rather than through the sides, which would be very well blocked by the amount of metal in the carriages and engine.

        The only reasonable way to get the signals in and out is through the sides of the train, which preclude using a particually high-gain (highly directional) antenna.

        Now... if we were to start talking about putting a reception antenna on the top of the train, and low-energy repeaters inside each carriage, we'd certainly be talking :)
  • Talk about "dynamic IP"!

  • Holy (Score:4, Funny)

    by TheDarkRogue ( 245521 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:37PM (#3560050)
    Moving out of edgewood into the City of Pittsburgh - Several thousand dollars and many headaches
    Dealing with the city of Pittsburgh parking shit and most likely not having a driveway - Many Migraines
    Increased Tax rates - Alot

    Ripping off the RIAA and MPAA, not waiting for the pr0n images to load, not getting packetloss when ever someone uses Pay-Per-View downstairs, and all at 10Mbits for half of what I'm paying for ISDN speed Cable right now - Priceless

  • NYC Wireless Project (Score:4, Informative)

    by subbie ( 579126 ) <slash@shiffman.net> on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:37PM (#3560051) Homepage
    This is happening in NYC as well, only there are non-for-profit groups such as NYCwireless [nycwireless.net] working to provide FREE access in public spaces throughout the NYC metropolitan area. If you're in NYC, check out this Community Network Node Database [nycwireless.net] (also available for other major US cities.)
  • The article says that it's free for now until the network is complete.

    To me (opinion) that's kind of like saying "Here, it's half a wheel, but you can use it free until we make the other half". I know, not quite analagous, but the point should be noted that "free until we charge you" is not free.

    $.02 (and you can't have change back)

    • Re:Free 'for now' but... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Ageless ( 10680 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @02:06PM (#3560263) Homepage
      How is getting something for a period of time for nothing anything like getting half a wheel?
      If it were anywhere near your analogy it would be, "Here is a working wheel. You can use it for now but eventually you will have to pay or stop using it." In the mean time you save time and effort. It's free.

      Any time you get something that benefits you for nothing, even if it's just for a second you are getting it for free. Maybe you can't access the network everywhere in the city, but if you can access it anywhere you have gained something for nothing. That is free.

      I just don't see how anyone can do anything but say, "Thanks. That's cool." about this.
  • Now when people go outside to get away from technology and back to nature, they can pirate some mp3s at the same time.

  • Very clever indeed (Score:5, Funny)

    by Sanity ( 1431 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @01:41PM (#3560082) Homepage Journal
    Pittsburgh is creating the network to show off its technological savvy and attract new businesses to move there, Gdovic said.
    Amazing, they can actually set up a Wifi network which anyone can access - most people do that by mistake...
  • Since it's all free now, there probably won't be any problems except limited bandwidth. But when they go to $20/month, how likely is phreaking to start happening? WLAN authentication hasn't had the best history...
    • Drexel University [drexel.edu] wireless-enabled their entire campus and completely bailed on WEP, opting instead to use a Cisco 3060 VPN with individually-registered MAC addresses of wireless cards. That could easily cause problems for Linux users unless a Linux client exists, but it is possible to do easy, large scale, secure wireless. MAC spoofing is not enough to get by this.

      Check it [drexel.edu] out.
  • but I don't think it justifies that 10% beer tax that our wonderful mayor has been pushing for so long. Of course now that all of the exits from Pittsburgh are being systematically closed to prevent people from leaving the city, at least we will have something to do.

    Actually, all sarcasm aside, this seems like a pretty good idea. I'll have to walk around with my Powerbook and see what I can pick up. It is a lot cheaper than the DSL line I have now.

    Kris

    • Argh. I'd happily deal with a beer tax if I could buy it in the G'Eagle like in a sensible city. Or, heavens forbid, be able to buy wine in the same place. Is that that radical an idea?
  • People still live in Pittsburgh??? There were tumbleweeds blowing down Forbes Ave. when I moved away.
    • When I first came here about three years ago, there was a billboard that read "Will the last person to leave please turn out the lights." Good introduction to Pittsburgh.
      • Population isn't down that much, but it's a lot older. The percentage of people over 65 in Pittsburgh is up there with retirement areas in Florida. Plus, very few immigrants move to Pittsburgh; those numbers are among the lowest in the US.
  • seeing that northern virginia and dc...as technology savvy as they claim to be...will never have such a luxury...i may have to move back to pittsburgh. cheaper living, wifi, and cmu...hmmm, tempting
  • ...their netblock becomes blackholed by network operators woldwide due to the volume of spam being piped through the unauthenticated connection.
  • So many people are saying that this service is not free, mentioning the $20/month fee listed in the summary. If you had read the article, you would know that (as of right now), access is free (as in beer).

    I am curious though, will the network be free, as in speech? It would be nice to get 10Mb wireless access, but it would be nicer to get unrestricted 10Mb wireless access. Who wants to bet that all P2P ports will be limited or restricted?

  • Seattle Wireless (Score:2, Informative)

    by marshac ( 580242 )
    We have had a 802.11b network across most of seattle and the east side for a long time now. Seattle Wireless has a nice webpage up complete with a coverage map at

    http://www.seattlewireless.com

    The pringle can network that they have constructed is quite impressive ;)
  • This is of course great news, whenever people talk about free networks and do something about it...

    Two antenna, however, does not make a huge wireless network IMHO.

    The Highgate test network communitywireless.org [communitywireless.org] is bigger than this! If you're interested in that an the mobile hardware they're using, check out locustworld.com [locustworld.com]

  • ...right after i decide not to go to college in pittsburgh.

    that is the most important factor in choosing a college right? access to wifi networks?
  • The article mentions wireless coverage of parks. Would it really be smart to whip out your laptop in the middle of a downtown park? I've never been to Pittsuburgh, but I would be very afraid of getting mugged for showing off my laptop in public. (Even in a restaurant or coffee shop) I would think your average purse-snatcher would see a laptop case as a very desirable target.
  • This story got covered because of the local bureaucratic organized crime league.. the old boy network here in Pittsburgh.. It truly isn't newsworthy... Sorry but normal wireless cards aren't going to transmit back to home base blocks away and 8 stories up in the sky... Maybe great for a one way communication...

    Beyond that, Telerama has a ton of places you would want to be and be using your computer... Nice clean restaurants, cafes and similar... see: http://www.telerama.com/services/wireless.php3...

    I doubt anyone here has been in Market Square - downtown PITTSburgh lately... You hardly want to pop out your expensive portable in either Market Square or Mellon Square... the place is littered with filth, bums and other miscellaneous items of irritation...

    Beyond that, nothing fancy about wireless these days...

    Pittsburgh also has a lot of goofy initiatives for dark fiber availability that local tech weenies want the guvern'ment types to pocket... Won't happen unless we get a sports team that can play in it I guess...

    Rock on Pittsburgh brain trust, you figured out how to setup a wireless LAN.. you guys rock... Maybe you can use the potholes as repeated portals and network the entire region.

    • Re:Wireless nonsense... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by d33ann ( 580819 )
      I too was amazed by the national coverage that this project got, but more power to them for getting word out that there are some technical developments in Pittsburgh.

      I and a co-worker checked out Market Square and Mellon Square yesterday and today and saw exactly zero people conspicuously using laptops. I was hoping to talk to some wireless geeks in Pittsburgh, and talk to them about Telerama's wireless, and to point them to Drew's page, a wireless portal for Pittsburgh. [pghwireless.com]

      Telerama would really like to co-operate with others who want to really see wireless take off in Pittsburgh. This took us by surprise, though!

      Drew and I have talked about setting up a Wireless Users Group in Pittsburgh, but judging from the turnout in Downtown yesterday and today, there would just be a few of us at this point.

      If you are interested in wireless in Pittsburgh, keep your eyes on what we are doing at Telerama, [telerama.com] and on Drew's website, [pghwireless.com] and on PghSAGE, [pghsage.org] a UNIX system administrators group that is also closely involved in wireless development in Pittsburgh.

      Deeann Mikula
      Director of Operations, Telerama Internet
      Co-Founder, PghSage group

  • how? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by BenTheDewpendent ( 180527 )
    what channels does one go threw to get this kind of thing done? I could setup a gorilla system and cover a few blocks of down town area Salem if i played my cards right but id love to get Salem to do it and have it be offical and be involved in the implemtation of it.

    who do you have to call? how many signatures are needed? how many tons of paper work must be delt with? startup fee and cost? etc... any one??
    • Check out http://www.3rc.org/index.html [3rc.org], the homepage of 3 Rivers Connect, the organization that set all this up. When you look at their board members [3rc.org] their are a lot of upper level university players and brass. 3RC has a pretty good list of projects [3rc.org] in progress, and they have actually gotten some things done. That gives them a bit of political clout, not just in the city (the city would let a group like this do whatever it wants). The real key is having the connections in Harrisburg, not Pittsburgh. The money is coming from the state.
  • I wonder if they'll interconnect to Pittsburgh's I-net [3rc.org]. Its the fiber network Pittsburgh got as a result of its cable franchise renewal. Last I heard it connects the city government, educational, nonprofit sites at 100mbps. That would be a truly innovative municipal infrastructure, using wireless for the last hop to homes and fiber for the backbone. The group behind the wireless project, 3 Rivers Connect [3rc.org] worked on that project after all.
  • How exactly do you do access control and authentication on WiFi?

    I'm thinking the upstream locked down and only accessible via IPSec (which you would pay to get an account for). This would be an excellent solution since it would also serve to secure your communications.

  • If you live in the San Francisco Bay Area, check out www.bawug.org [bawug.org], they have an ad-hoc Linux wireless network.
    Personally, I love the fact that the bawug network depends on the work and resources of individuals, and not the government.
    Since Metronome/Ricochet failed, I don't expect our local government to do any better.

    Stephan

  • Similar efforts in SF, Denver (Score:3, Informative)

    by yppiz ( 574466 ) on Tuesday May 21, 2002 @04:54PM (#3561685) Homepage
    There are similar commercial (www.surfandsip.com [surfandsip.com]) and grass-roots (www.bawug.org [bawug.org]) efforts in the San Francisco Bay Area.

    For instance, here's a list of intentionally open wireless access points around SF [toaster.net]

    --Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu

  • If you had a small business within the access range, what would prevent you from sharing this internet connection and use it for commercial purposes? Is this part of the plan?

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