An Offer Tivo Owners Can't Refuse 485
An anonymous reader pointed us to this little tidbit. The BBC paid Tivo (company slogan: "TV Your Way") to force owners' boxes to record some new program they wanted to push, which looks incredibly exciting. UK Tivo owners seem a little upset.
Oh no! (Score:4, Interesting)
And what's stopping stations from turning off the commercial-skipping feature through similar bribery?
Re:Oh no! (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh that already happened years ago. NBC, CBS, and ABC are all early investors in Tivo, the PVR without the 30 second skip. (OK, it has a 30 second skip, but you have to "enable" that feature, it isn't on by default).
HOW TO TURN ON THE TIVO 30 SEC SKIP (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Oh no! (Score:3, Insightful)
My US Tivo had a 30 minute BMW commercial in the Showcases that I didn't know about. It sat there for a long time until I realized that I was getting shorted 30 minutes. (I record as much as I can).
Next thing you know, a good idea (Tivo), gets consumed by a bad idea (forced infomercials) and it sucks for everyone.
Look at how much of the web is now unusable due to lack of content and nothing but advertising. Usenet used to be one of the best sources of information, now its one big spamhole
Re:Oh no! (Score:5, Insightful)
It does not take up any of your recording capacity - it is stored in a seperate reserved space. You still have 40 hours of recording capacity on a standard TiVo.
Why isn't that space mine to begin with?
Re:Oh no! (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyways, you paid for 40 hours of recording time. You have 40 hours of recording time. Tivo doesn't owe you every inch of recording media in the box.
It sounds like a better plan than death by legislation.
(side thought: Maybe in the future shows won't battle for a good time slot, they'll battle for Tivo priority. 200k for a two-day guaranteed time span on everyone's tivo, 25k for a 4 hour span, etc.)
Re:Oh no! (Score:2)
I don't understand that. They're just competing for bytes on your Tivo's HDD that way.
Now, if they could find a way to force you to watch downloaded programming, then they'd pay. Big time.
Re:You didn't pay for it. (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a TiVo that does not have a monthly fee and does not spy on my TV viewing habits. So that's a strange coincidence. Maybe you could have gotten a TiVo if only you did some homework first.
"Now what would people say if Microsoft pulled a similar trick? "
The Windows 95 cd came with a Weezer video. I don't remember anyone complaining that their CD space was being used for things they didn't care to watch.
" If there was a genuinely free market in DVRs the features would be determined by the capability of the technology rather than the business model of the vendor... Fortunately there are Tivo competitors, "
uh, so you're saying IF there X exists then Y wouldn't happen. But then you say X does exist, but somehow Y is happening. Wow! that's logic for you.
You really have to understand how the TiVo works to understand this is part of what you paid for. I never once heard anyone complain about TiVo Takes (A weekly TV magazine that spotlighted next weeks cool shows) when it was airing. But suddenly TiVo records something you don't like and you're up in arms asking for the very feature people love to be stipped away because they don't understand it.
If you haven't used a TiVo it's likely you simply don't understand that this is a cool feature and not an outrage.
Joseph Elwell.
Re:Oh no! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Oh no! (Score:2)
*caugh Toms Hardware caugh*
~Wx
Re:Oh no! (Score:5, Funny)
>
> *caugh Toms Hardware caugh*
Don't you mean:
Next -->
*cough*
Next -->
Tom's
Next -->
Hardware
Next -->
?
Next -->
Re:Oh no! (Score:2)
Gee, it's a good thing that I didn't buy the special "Got-A-View" option when I got my Tivo. I didn't get the special chair with the leather straps that you seem to have received with yours.
Either that, or you're way off the mark when you use the word "forced."
Re:Oh no! (Score:5, Informative)
No, it doesn't. The thread [tivocommunity.com] mentioned above, covers this in detail in TiVo's response ....
Re:Oh no! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh no! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Oh no! (Score:2)
The only problem with this is that TiVo delivers its stuff through the Discovery Channel, which is one of the few channels on most cable systems that has stuff you might actually want to watch. It'd be better if they used one of the many channels you can do without...something like Lifetime, HGTV, or QVC.
Re:Oh no! - Read the article (Score:5, Informative)
Now, this is a scheme for them to make money with minimal intrusion. I honestly can't see anything wrong with this as it is not intrusive in the slightest
Again, read the article
They can't refuse? (Score:2, Troll)
I think a million Tivo subscribers returning their boxes would be a fine educational example for Tivo, BBC, and any marketroids who read about this and thought "oooh...now that's a way to increase our market share".
Really. It's a piece of electronic equipment with a power switch. Turn it off and send it back.
Re:They can't refuse? (Score:3, Insightful)
And seriously, is it that bad?
Reading the links tells you that it doesn't (or shouldn't) interfere with anything that you are watching or recording. One of the features i like the most about my TiVo is that it's always trying to record something even if i haven't set that time aside for something else. I can't see how it's a bad thing that TiVo gets more money to record something when the unit would otherwise be doing nothing else.
I mean come on slashdot drones, TiVo needs to make SOME amount of money to keep themselves alive.
Re:They can't refuse? (Score:4, Interesting)
And what would they learn from that? Tivo owners have already paid for the box, and will not get the money back. The only loss of income Tivo would face would be from those customers who were paying for their listings monthly, instead of ponying up the "lifetime" fee. I'm sure this would be offset by the amount of free hardware they could refurbish and resell to ohers, and collect new listing fees from... besides, if these are a large percentage of the original Tivo boxes, and not the Series2, it could speed up them killing off support for the original boxes.
Re:They can't refuse? (Score:2)
Re:They can't refuse? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They can't refuse? (Score:2)
If you still can't stand them, you are of course free to cancel but IMHO, it would be for a very trivial reason
Am I missing something? (Score:5, Insightful)
If it doesn't take up space, and will lower the overall cost of the unit by allowing another revenue stream for Tivo, and you don't have to watch it, and it doesn't interfere with the rest of your programming, why is this news? Am I missing something?
Mod parent up, please (Score:2)
As a TiVo owner, I'm amazed at what I get for $12 a month. I'd never give it up. If TiVo can generate more revenue by doing something that has no negative impact on the users (and in this case possibly a positive impact), why not?
You're not missing anything. (Score:2, Insightful)
It won't be recorded if you're watching live TV or already recording something else. It doesn't eat into your storage space, as it's stored in the TiVo's reserved space.
What this is is another fine example of Slashdot posting articles mindlessly and submitters submitting articles mindlessly.
Re:Am I missing something? (Score:2)
If it doesn't take up space, and will lower the overall cost of the unit by allowing another revenue stream for Tivo, and you don't have to watch it, and it doesn't interfere with the rest of your programming, why is this news? Am I missing something?
Well I think it's pretty damn annoying and presumptuous for one. And it's probably just the start. I don't really wanna sit down and see the annoying "Would you like to change channels to record our spam or stay on the current channel?" prompt everytime I sit down. I turned off the auto-recommendations just because of this.
Oh and uh, the cost doesn't seem to be going down [slashdot.org] any either.
Re:Am I missing something? (Score:3)
FWIW, this stuff usually comes through at zero-dark-hundred. Unless you're a night owl, you'll never see it switch over to record this stuff. As for the "suggestions" feature, it's tracked down a few movies I wouldn't have otherwise known were on (Fahrenheit 451 [imdb.com] and Colossus: The Forbin Project [imdb.com] come to mind as a couple of examples). It beats browsing the listings every week.
(I didn't particulary care for the Lexus promo TiVo ran a while back...I have zero interest in rice burners [riceboypage.com] and wouldn't buy one even if I had Bill Gates' fortune. I think the Beeb doing a promo of one of its shows through TiVo is a better use of this capability than ads for products that don't have much to do with TV or entertainment.)
Re:Am I missing something? (Score:3)
You're missing a hell of a lot. I'll pay. I'll pay extra. I'll pay for a box that does what I want it to do, because I don't want to be bothered. Sound like your typical MS customer? Wrong. I said I don't want to be bothered. MS, like Tivo, does a lot of bothering. Don't track, don't spy, don't record what the networks think I want to watch, don't crash. Be an appliance; do what I paid for. It's my box- remember that. Nobody srews with my VCR or alarm clock, why should my PVR allow intrusions?
I'm asking again: Anybody know of a PVR that does what you want it to do?
Re:Am I missing something? (Score:3, Insightful)
TiVo, on the other hand, seems to be striving much harder to finding some middle ground between pleasing the consumer and pacifying the behind-the-times TV companies. So you get innovative little deals like this. Admit it--no matter your ethical reservations, it's a pretty smart way to make some extra cash, which by all accounts they're in need of right now. But in the end it's clear that the ReplayTV-style DVRs will win out. We're learning time and again that this type of technology just doesn't go away. It didn't with the VCR, it didn't with personal MP3 players, it didn't with CD burners, it didn't with DeCSS, and it won't with felt-tip pens [slashdot.org] (ahem). You can already buy the ReplayTV 4000 now, and it's increasingly likely that the networks' "you must spy on your consumers" edict isn't going to stand either. The cat isn't going back in the bag.
Control (Score:2, Interesting)
The only thing that tivo is expecting people to do as a *minimum* is to put up with a line of text showing a program that's recorded that they can watch.
All of this nonsense people are spouting out about having their privacy and rights violated really bothers me sometimes. Seriously, we're at the mercy of the big companies. If we want a service, we have to take what goes along with it. What a surprise...companies want money? Companies advertise and market their products/services? Never heard of that before!
It's business, and this decision didn't hurt anyone, it just made it possible for you to watch a new show at any time you chose, or chose not to, because the BBC wanted you to. TiVo made some money, and the BBC got some more exposure for their show. The user of the TiVo still had the choice of whether or not to watch the show--and if they chose to watch it, they could do it at any time they wanted. You gain potential convenience, and lose nothing. To me this isn't nearly as bad as having to watch commercials--something we all put up with and rarely say anything about anyway.
Relax people. When your rights are really being violated, you'll know for sure, without having to make mountains out of molehills. Sure, I'm sure the next argument would be that the more of this kind of thing that we let companies do, the worse it will get. Again, you'll know when it's really time to complain. There's also laws in place to stop things from getting that bad.
Re:Yes, you are. (Score:4, Interesting)
Amen, brother. That's why I don't own a PVR. I want one that doesn't need to phone home, and can get its programming info from the guide channel or something. Am I reduced to the Linux PVR project? I'd rather not build my own.
Re:He's not, but you are. (Score:2, Insightful)
And that is not a control issue? If I buy the damn machine, who the hell are Tivo to tell me which parts of the harddrive I can use for what?
It is scary to think that modern consumers have become so accustomed to giving up there freedoms to machines, that you could write the above without realising that it is a contradiction in terms. Go reread everything that Stallman has written until you undertsand why it is not OK when software decides what we do instead of vice versa.
Re:He's not, but you are. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you don't pay for the Tivo service or just don't hook your Tivo up to the phone line, then you can stop your Tivo from downloading this content that you don't want on your hard drive. But then you won't get the cool features you bought the Tivo for which is automated recording of shows, guide data, etc.
His point is that if you pay for the Tivo service, you get the Tivo service and all the things that come along with it. Just like you pay for Internet service. If your ISP decides not to route port 80 traffic to you, they have that right, and you have the right to cancel your service if you don't agree with it.
Re:He's not, but you are. (Score:3, Insightful)
Any service you are paying for covers only what data is sent from Tivo to you (as with your ISP). If Tivo uses the services to make the machine do things that are not in your interest, then they are using it to control you.
Scratch me getting a Tivo. (Score:4, Insightful)
Fuck that- if I want unrequested, unwanted bullshit in my space, I'll go check my hotmail account. The fact that Tivo is doing this violates the basic concept behind why the boxes are selling at all.
If TV were actually configurable, it would be a simple matter of dropping the offending network from your selection of channels. But it's not- users have the illusion of choice. Much like cokeheads- you can have it cut with ephedrine or vitamin b. Or asprin. But you can't have it pure.
Screw these guys, I'm going home.
Re:Scratch me getting a Tivo. (Score:3, Funny)
/snip/
...if I want unrequested, unwanted bullshit in my space, I'll go check my hotmail account.
And you still check Slashdot?
--dialing numbers-- "Hi Pot, this is Kettle. You're black." --dialtone--
Re:Scratch me getting a Tivo. (Score:5, Interesting)
Two: I've been keeping an eye on the Tivo on the off chance television ever becomes economical (eg- I can get sci fi without having to get 37 other channels I never watch)
Does anybody else see the irony, here? For somebody who seems to want his entertainment for free or very little cost, you sure do bitch a lot about commercials. You can't have it both ways, man.
Indeed. (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, I have yet to be exposed to a blasting, annoying as hell TV or radio ad that caters to something I'm interested in. I have zero use for cadillacs, depends, preperation H or beer. I could give a shit about the X-fest. It bugs me that I know about these things when I have no need or use for them. But then, I'm the sort of person that actually figures out what I need and then looks for a solution, rather than eagerly being led around by the nose.
The internet advertising environment can be configured by an educated end user on a more or less global level. The television and radio environments cannot- sure, you can flip around, but if you haven't noticed, most networks seem time things so when you flip, you hit another commercial break. You can take or tivo and fast forward or drop commercials, but you're still expending effort to do so. Not an effective solution.
On top of all of that, tv and radio are passive. The net is much more interactive, and I'll take that over the tube any day.
ah (Score:2, Funny)
Don't see what the big deal is... (Score:5, Informative)
I fail to see what the big hoopla is about, or why this is even posted to Slashdot. After all, this isn't even the first time that this has happened.
Re:Don't see what the big deal is... (Score:2)
Re:Don't see what the big deal is... (Score:2)
It makes absolutely no impact on the amount of space you have available to record your own stuff.
Re:Don't see what the big deal is... (Score:2, Insightful)
And having a Pepsi logo tattood on your forehead, would never get in your way, either. You would never even notice. It would cost you nothing. Pepsi might even pay you to do it. So why don't you? There's no downside, right?
Re:Don't see what the big deal is... (Score:2)
And this has what to do with anything? Nobody is requiring-- or even asking-- you to be a shill. Are you just opposing this practice on moral grounds, or something? If you have a TiVo, chances are you enjoy it enough that you hope TiVo doesn't go out of business. So why begrudge them the extra revenue? (If you don't have a TiVo, of course, you need to just shut the fuck up right now. This goes without saying.)
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that this is the best form of advertising I know of so far. I don't have to watch it if I don't want to, and it goes away if I ignore it. And it's not intrusive; no bells or gongs, just a menu item with a gold star by it.
Basically, dude, I think your post was just meaningless FUD.
Re:Don't see what the big deal is... (Score:2)
I believe it was posted out here to illustrate a point. Actually, two. The first being there are too many whiny, immature vocal types in the Linux community. The second being too many of these whiners cannot tolerate anyone making a cent off of Linux, unless it's IBM or VA.
Everyone cheered TiVO and Philips for choosing Linux. Hey, I even bought one just because it ran Linux. TiVO has been way more than cool to the Linux community, supporting the TiVO hackers. Participating on the tivocommunity boards, telling the hackers where "not to look", even ensuring that TiVO upgrades didn't botch guys like me that added more drives. They have honored opt-out of user tracking, and they made it easy to opt-out. I was not put on hold when I called to opt-out, was not questioned at all why I wanted to opt-out, and was greeted by a friendly person on the other side.
TiVO was never really about making PVR's. Their motive was to be the first player in the emerging TV-on-demand market. The fact that their stuff runs on Linux is good for Linux. The more the big guys adopt, the more they will expend resources to develop Linux. What's good for Linux is good for my server farms.
So what if TiVO duped a broadcaster into buying ads from them. Who's going to watch it anyway? Kudos to them for finding a way to get these fools to part with their cash. And if you're whining about the space (which is in the reserved portion), go get a bigger drive and put it in your TiVO. They're cheap. Probably costs less than you could make if you spent your time making money instead of whining.
An end to the 1-800 number in the US, too (Score:3, Informative)
Makes me wish we had a satellite dish PVR instead. At least then we wouldn't be dependent on phone calls to keep our PVR working.
Re:An end to the 1-800 number in the US, too (Score:2, Informative)
Also, if you haven't checked already, it's often cheaper to make long-distance calls out of state than it is to make long-distance calls in state. You may be able to halve or better your long-distance by making it dial somewhere else.
It's also possible (though not pretty) to use calling cards, or if you're feeling hackish, to use ethernet to use your PC's internet connection.
TiVo or ReplayTV? (Score:2)
I think I just made up my mind, unless anyone has any strong pro-TiVo or anti-ReplayTV information?
-
Re:TiVo or ReplayTV? (Score:2, Informative)
DirecTivo:
-Dual Tuners (record 2 shows at once)
-Costs $99 for new DirecTV subscribers
-Easy to use Interface (Yes, my Linux-running friends, this is a Good Thing)
-Direct digital MPEG2 recording straight to disk, results in ONLY high quality recordings which not only look better, but take up less disk space
ReplayTV:
-Commerical skip
-Local LAN Replay-to-Replay streaming
-Internet Video sharing with friends
I would suggest going to a local electronics store and playing with the interfaces and seeing which one you like more. I had my Tivo first so the ReplayTV interface drives me batty. I might feel differently if I had purchased a ReplayTV first, I don't know.
ReplayTV and Tivo both have vibrant online communities (Replay's [avsforum.com] and Tivo's [tivocommunity.com]) where you can find all kinds of information, good and bad, about the various models. The Tivo community is HUGE with literally hundreds of knowledgeable people (including several Tivo employees) contributing hacks and help constantly.
Did you read the Tivo Responce? (Score:2, Informative)
Fairly innocuous (Score:4, Redundant)
The last one seems to be the only annoyance, if you were in the can, you may come back to find it on a new channel, but I think Tivo did a decent job of trying to make this a painless "grab" of promo items which aren't even forced on you - just automatically made available to you. The only way it really could be made any more painless is multiple channel tuners, so it could grab the show off the 'backup' no matter what you're doing in the first place.
Re:Fairly innocuous (Score:2, Insightful)
1) Opt out of these in the future
2) Manually delete them in case the extra menu item annoys you that much.
Re:Fairly innocuous (Score:2)
Re:Fairly innocuous (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Fairly innocuous (Score:2)
That's basically what they did! When the hard drive was originally partitioned, a chunk of it was set aside for user content; that's the 40 hours or whatever that you were expecting to get. A different chunk was set aside for stuff like network showcases and, yes, promos. This is space that you never had access to, and that could never have been used to store user content.
Basically, it wasn't "yours" to begin with, in that sense.
opt in vs opt out... (Score:2)
Big Deal (Score:2)
Big Deal. Lots of companies do crappy little things like this. Your Tivo hasn't changed, functionally. Complain when you come home some day and find your kids watching pr0n you didn't ask to recorde...
-Sean
Disgusting (Score:2)
Is there a warning on the box that says it'll do this?
Travis
Re:Disgusting (Score:3, Funny)
For free? Where's the nearest electronics store, I need a tivo!
Tivo Secrets! (Score:2)
I would be interested to know where this space comes from, and if it is hackable to add to the 40 hours.
The Dossa & Jo promo contains some bad language and is unsuitable for younger viewers. Parental controls are not effective so be careful.
Doesn't this interfere with my choices as a parent? If I don't want my kids to watch this, am I SOL? Sounds like a recipe for pissing off lots of people. Really fast.
BTW IANAP (I AM NOT A PARENT)
Re:Tivo Secrets! (Score:3, Insightful)
already doing this in US (Score:2, Informative)
Re:already doing this in US (Score:2, Insightful)
TiVO in the states recorded show (car commercial) at 2 AM when you didnt have anything set to record...
Same thing in the US (Score:2)
...And Sheryl Crow as well (Score:4, Interesting)
Curious, I agreed. TiVo tuned in to the Discovery channel, where a rapidly-changing full-screen barcode was being broadcast with a small text box in the center that said the broadcast was part of the TiVo service.
After Tivo was done a few minutes later, I noticed Sheryl Crow's new music video was prominently displayed in "Now Showing".
Re:...And Sheryl Crow as well (Score:2, Funny)
Well, if it makes you happy, it can't be that bad!
Re:...And Sheryl Crow as well (Score:2)
Re:...And Sheryl Crow as well (Score:2)
HOWTO REMOVE Sheryl Crow (and other) Clips (Score:4, Informative)
http://darwin.codefab.com/pipermail/random/2002-F
That link provides a list of TiVo Backdoor Codes.
To remove the clips from a TiVo 2.5 unit, first enable Backdoors by entering "B D 2 5" (one space between each character) into the 'Search By Title' and pressing ThumbsUp.
After enabling Backdoors, enter the following code from the ToDo List:
- Thumbs Down, Thumbs Down, Thumbs Up, Instant Replay
This will put all those little clips from TeleWorld into the ToDo List and will allow you to delete them.
Granted, this doesn't free up any space for you, but it at least deletes the entries for BestBuy and Sheryl Crow from the Showcases. Maybe even from the main menu (I don't know because mine is already gone).
Just a bit of info for those fellow TiVo users.
Not quite enraged yet. (Score:2)
I got my TiVo for $100 on a promotion for the summer olympics in Australia, and then I added a 40 or 60GB drive (I can't remember). So I have been using a TiVo for some time now, and I can't imagine watching TV without it. I am pretty sure the last time I watched live TV was in September.
Additionally, my life is as ad free as I can make it. Banner ads are filtered out, or at a minimum the animation is disabled, so all I see is the first, usually nonsensical, frame. Now that I have a CD player in my car, I don't listen to FM radio, and even when I did, I would change the channel or turn it off when an ad came on. So of course, I use the TiVo to skip all of the commercials that come on.
Those two things being said, I am not entirely opposed to TiVo using the reserved space on the recorder (space that doesn't count against how many hours the recorder came with, or how many shows I can record) to record promotional items. Assuming, as was the case this time, the TiVo isn't recording anything else, I don't really care if it decides to grab some show because the BBC, or whoever, paid them.What I am opposed to, of course, is having the TiVo force me to watch it, or even be in my face about telling me it is there. TiVo used to have a thing where an ad would come up on the screen the first time the TiVo button was pushed, after the ad was recorded. People complained this was annoying, so now TiVo just seems to put an extra line on the main menu, saying Sheryl Crow video, or whatever.
The forced message was bad, because they say, you only see it once, and it only shows up sometimes, but how soon is it until I have to flip through 5 pages of banner ads before I can get to the menu? And then what, forced 30 second commercial spots before I can watch a show? I currently don't mind paying $12/month for the TiVo service, but that type of forced behavior will cause me and many others to investigate other means of loading scheduling information onto the TiVo. Very simple, abuse your customers, lose your customers.
Now, in the case of this BBC show, I think it would have been more reasonable for TiVo to have everybody record the show as one of TiVo's recomendations. Hopefully it would still be stored in reserved space, as it wasn't a true recomendation. Then people would see it on there list of shows, and watch or not, and like it or not, based on the shows merit.
Disabled Parental Controls (Score:3, Interesting)
What does strike me as dubious is, "The Dossa & Jo promo contains some bad language and is unsuitable for younger viewers. Parental controls are not effective so be careful." (quoted from Gary Sargent, a moderator at TiVo).
What they are saying is, "Regardless of how you try to protect your children's viewing habits, we will disable your controls and make whatever content we feel like accessible to anyone who uses the box - and this may well be your children who are in from school before you." Not only do they disable the parental controls, due to the nature of the TiVo unit, they also make [potentially] adult material available outside of the carefully regulated UK "watershed".
So, how long before a TV channel wants to get viewing figures up on some late night porn dressed up as a documentary and a nation comes home the next day to find their kids happily watching away at 5pm?
Re:Disabled Parental Controls (Score:2)
My prediction? A bunch of really happy kids and perplexed parents.
Re:Disabled Parental Controls (Score:2, Insightful)
It's almost certainly an oversight that's being addressed right now, number one.
And number two, "parental controls" aren't foolproof anyway. The only effective parental control is... drumroll please... a parent! Many programs out there still don't have a rating listed. I could think MASH is objectionable and not want my (non-existent) children to watch it, but it's not rated, and thus not blockable.
Even if you go the double-bladed method of using the V-chip in your TV, you get no further than going on the TiVo's guide data alone. If there is no rating broadcast or in the guide data, your children could be watching porn until the cows come home.
Deal with it. Lock up the power cords or the TV if it's that big of an issue.
Honestly, though, today's children hear and see far worse things in school than they do on television. Everyone needs to give up on this "oh, my innocent little children" bit and get with the times.
Nothing new, and no big deal (Score:2)
That's kind of the point, really. You're not required to watch this content. It's recorded for you only if you're not already recording or watching something else. And it goes away by itself if you ignore it. Why all the uproar? What less intrusive or obnoxious form of advertising can you imagine?
Are you gonna make be break out the Simpsons quotes on you?
To stop those monsters 1-2-3
Here's a fresh new way that's trouble free
It's got Paul Anka's guarantee...
Guarantee void in Tennessee!
Just don't look!
Just don't look!
Just don't look!
Just don't look!
Disturbing trend... (Score:4, Insightful)
You laugh now, but wait until your flying car automatically lands at a McDonalds every hour during any long trip. A feature they didn't tell you about when you bought it. In fact, one that didn't exist when you bought it...
Thank you, I'll take the product that you can't reprogram remotely. The one that works for me.
Re:Disturbing trend... (Score:3, Insightful)
While I think most of these people are going overboard (and if you bothered to read some of the posts, you'd realize that plenty of the people complaining on here do own TiVOs) I do agree with their basic loathing of this kind of remote control, even on this small scale.
Maybe I and those of similar mind are going to turn in to the new eccentric hermit anachronisms of the digital age, refusing to just get with the program, but I'm fine with that. I HATE people selling to me. I despise salesmen, especially having watched them throughout my short career in the dot-bomb. However, I realize that they're here to stay, and that its my responsibility to avoid them if it pisses me off that much. Deer don't assume that any wolves or puma that they smell or see are just wandering around because it's unethical to hunt deer. They run.
I also resent and avoid products where the original manufacturer can do anything without my approval, or somehow hamstrings itself so I can't use it later for whatever reason. My home (such as it is) is my refuge, and allowing some marketing manager to do anything with my stuff, even in an unobtrusive way, infringes on that in my view.
All this said, I do my best not to get too pissed off at this stuff. The various hardware hobbling bills scare me alot, but in the end, if they pass, I'll just not buy anything that's hobbled. There are more hardcopy books than I could ever read, even if they force all new books to be ebooks with face-recognition on who is licensed to read it. There are more old DVDs than I could ever watch. I still own a VCR. Of course, I imagine they could outlaw hardcopy books, old DVDs, and VCRs, but if that happens, we've got more problems than TiVO recording shows unasked for. Windows 98 will be the last Windows I use, as I refuse to run a system that stops working after I change my hardware any number of times. I have access to a pirate copy of XP, but I'm just not interested in the running battle. I have cable only for the modem, I don't even get any channels. I watch PBS over the air, and listen to NPR because I'm sick of the commercials elsewhere, and the commercials on PBS and NPR aren't the point of making a show like it is for commercial TV and radio. I watch movies on DVD bought generally second-hand. I play video games on my consoles when I want to play them, offline. I've got backups for when my hardware fails. (That's backup hardware, not burned copies) I deal with advertising on the Internet where it doesn't annoy me. If it goes beyond what I'm willing to deal with, I stop visiting the site, even if I like it. I used gamespot.com alot before the ads got too heavy for me to deal with, and I just stopped going. My life hasn't ended. I wake up in the morning. I don't know and don't care what I'm missing, 'cause as far as I'm concerned I'm missing nothing. I'm keeping what's important to me in mind and letting what isn't go, because it just isn't as important.
TiVO recording shows a sales weasel told it to record instead of you isn't something to get enraged about. If your TiVO is more important to you than making sure everything your home electronics does is specifically asked for by you, then don't worry about it. You're probably not worried about it, but in case you are relax. You're not evil or a bad person. I don't think you're a schill for the man. You've made your choice, I just expect you to live with your choices, and don't get pissed with anyone but yourself if the consequences of that choice aren't something you can deal with.
If sales weasels having the ability to decide what your machine records drives you more crazy than your PVR makes your life easier, do the only thing that matters to corporations and stop giving them your money, or give it to someone else. And don't complain about it, for goodness sake. The world is what it is, you made the choice to get rid of it or not, not the faceless corporation. No one yet is forcing you to do this, so take advantage of your freedom and don't.
Re: (Score:2)
Dubbed a "must see" by the BBC... (Score:2)
About reserved space, and pre-empting programs (Score:5, Insightful)
Argument 1: "It's coming from reserved space, so it doesn't affect your existing programs."
What if I have a 15 or 30 hour box (at basic), and some event (vacation) means I'm having trouble juggling just a few things I wanted -- in the meantime, space is "reserved" that could have been provided for my use (remember me, the one who bought the product for usability's sake).
In that sense, the reserved space affects my regular space, and that of anybody who purchases the box, because only so much "space" fits in a given box. If it's about making for both happy users and a healthy company, the money from people who prefer the "extra" space rather than reserved space may outweigh the (payoffs from networks minus lost subscriptions from angry users).
Argument 2: It doesn't pre-empt live television.
Mostly wrong, though it doesn't seem to pre-empt scheduled recordings. I often pause a baseball game and leave the room to take a phone call, for example, or leave it playing knowing that I can go back 20 minutes or so to catch Barry Bonds' record-tying home run.
On 60 seconds notice, a forced program changes the channel and loses the previous program buffer. Goodbye, user option to review what they might have missed, all because they weren't on guard with the remote to respond "yessir" or "nosir" to the equipment they own. Remember that is one of the prime selling points of the product, at the moment.
Re:About reserved space, and pre-empting programs (Score:2)
Re:About reserved space, and pre-empting programs (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, you misunderstand. TiVo is always recording a 30-minute buffer of the current channel. This 30-minute buffer is also outside the 30-hour space because of this. If you pause live TV, it doesn't begin recording. It's always recording. In fact, you can rewind live TV. Pausing live TV just stills the last image on the screen, and "bookmarks" your place in the buffer. If you leave it paused for more than 30 minutes, it'll unpause and start playing the buffer from the beginning (the spot you bookmarked)
I believe that if the TiVo is paused when it wants to change the channel, the default is 'yes' if you scheduled a recording, and 'no' if it's making a suggestion. Don't know how it handled this situation for the promo.
My main point is that there's a difference between the live buffer and an actual recording. TiVo is recording the 30-minute buffer 24/7; and, to be clear, it's always the last 30 minutes of the current channel. If you change channels, the buffer is wiped instantly.
Argument 1 Response Flawed (Score:2, Informative)
When the box says it's a 15 or 30 hour box, it's a 15 or 30 hour box. You are guaranteed 15 or 30 hours for recording -- the reserve is always reserved, and is not figured into that number. There's no wool being pulled over your eyes, and it was never promised for your use.
Argument two, I can't respond to as I haven't ever had anything paused when something was scheduled. However, it would seem the TiVo's common sense would dictate if you've got the buffer paused, it shouldn't touch the channel.
Couple of points (Score:5, Insightful)
For you non-Euro-resident readers, the BBC already collects a gigantic toll from the population at large ('the license fee'; currently UKP112 for a colour TV [tv-l.co.uk] ) for its budget, in exchange for what is generally regarded as among the best programming anywhere. While I have supported the BBC strongly in the past, this kind of activity essentially is extremely unethical for a number of reasons:
The BBC, through its joint ventures in the UK (particularly publishing and radio), North America and elsewhere, is already blurring the distinction between public monies (the license fee) and private finance to an unhealthy level. With this latest effort they lose a little more of their hard-earned reputation of objectivity in pursuit of coin, and more importantly, give the British public less of a reason in future to pay the fees.
Regardless of however small the payment was in the grand scheme of things, this was wrong. To think of it another way, 100% of the British television public paid for only a small subset of viewers (less than 1%?) to receive something that they probably didn't want. How is that acceptable?
Re:Couple of points (Score:2)
It kind of sucks but i have to admit that probably the best english language tv in the world has come from the BBC - Blackadder (my name sake), Faulty towers, Monty Python, Hitchhikers guide, red dwarf, etc.
Re:Couple of points (Score:3, Insightful)
Some interesting things I remember:
Don't get me wrong. As I said above, I do have a strong emotional attachment to that objective Beeb reporting and its fine dramas. I just don't see how a more commercial Auntie serves the people it ostensibly has responsibility for.
Not only is this not new... (Score:4, Interesting)
In the 3.0 software, TiVos will now download a large chunk of their data from these special programs. TiVo does this by buying a late-night paid programming slot on the Discovery Channel. The actual show looks like a screen full of CC data, and there is a major upside to receiving these datacasts. They significantly shorten the length of daily phone calls. Bonus. (Not to mention that the 3.0 software on Series 2 units unofficially supports update-over-internet...)
As has been stated over and over, the special recordings don't take up usable space. A portion of the MFS filesystem is flagged as Reserved, and this is where the data goes. TiVo downloads a promo, it runs its course, and disappears. It also will never switch to record the show if you have something else set to record in the same time slot, so it's not even very intrusive. And in the US (not sure about the UK), the time slot is early in the AM when you're not likely to have programs scheduled to record anyways.
Regardless, the promos aren't that intrusive, don't take up recording space, and don't interfere with your recordings. Plus, Embeem has created a script to remove the ads [tivocommunity.com], which has been around for quite a while, so you can remove the ads yourself if you're horribly offended.
So long story short, this is not a crisis situation. You're not forced to watch the ads, and its easy to ignore them. Hell, you can even remove them yourself with a little trickery. What's the big deal?
If an extra menu item in TiVo Central with an icon next to it is enough to make you refuse to buy or even return your TiVo, ESPECIALLY since Embeem offers you a script to remove the menu item yourself, feel free to take your TiVo back to its point of sale. It just means less complaint postings in the TiVo Forums [tivocommunity.com] for the rest of us to wade through.
TV licence (Score:3, Interesting)
And yes, I know they weren't forced to actually watch it - but surely it isn't appropriate for them to be spending this money telling people they were wrong when they looked in the Radio Times and went 'nah, I don't want to watch this'...
Hypocrites! (Score:3, Insightful)
Second, the extra space on the Tivo was not something that you knew about when you bought it, and it did not affect your purchase of the Tivo in the least. When you buy one, you know that it's a sealed box. If someone wants to make a PVR libre, I'd be glad, but Tivo reserving a very small amount of space is completely normal for a corporation.
Finally, a number of people think it's bad that the program had "bad language" but that it overrode "parental controls". Talk about control. What gives you the right to decide what your children can watch? Tivo has a program downloaded to your box... but it doesn't override your schedule... but it doesn't record if you ask it not to... but it doesn't force you to watch it... but it doesn't take up any space... And you're outraged! But your children are being explicitly denied the right to watch a TV show, solely because it has some "bad language" (which isn't bad - would you rather your kids fist- or gun-fighting than swearing?), is completely fine. Listen to yourselves!
Chock full of misinformation. (Score:3, Informative)
But I've turned into a tivo zealot as of late, so take this with a grain of salt.
Re:Open Source PVR (Score:4, Interesting)
What you said. The hardware's available for peanuts. (A cheap-azz Duron or P3 or P4-Northwood box, plus an older ATI-Rage-128-based capture card is all that's really needed here.)
The only thing missing from the open alternatives today is the software. (If I were a good enough designer/coder, I'd do it myself. Sadly, I've gotta wait 'till others, with madder sk1llz than I, get around to it.)
Any of you coder-d00dz wanna brew up an "embedded" Linux distro? Ideally, this could even be a turnkey solution -- "Buy hard drive. Buy supported video card. Boot from floppy. Insert CD-ROM with disk image. Reboot. Done."
If I buy a box, the hard drive is mine, not the advertiser's.
(I'd be very interested in knowing, from Tivo owners, if the advertiser-mandated download pushed off any content you were archiving. I'm disgusted by, but could tolerate, a Tivo recording stuff without my knowledge or consent, so long as programs I wanted to keep were preserved. If I owned a Tivo, I would never tolerate an advertiser overwriting a show I'd recorded on my Tivo's hard drive in favor of its own content.)
And since Tivo execs are reading this -- if your advertising (which is what "records a show when the show's owners pay you enough" really means) does overwrite user-saved content, I'll never purchase your product, for any reason whatsoever.
Re:Open Source PVR (Score:2)
RTFA. Tivo reps have said, in various postings on the web, that this feature-- or whatever you want to call it; don't get semantic on me-- stores its data in a reserved partition. Because you could never have recorded user content on it in the first place, putting promo content on it has zero effect on your programs.
This is clearly spelled out in the third link off the post.
Re:What if you had other programs scheduled? (Score:2)
Re:What if you had other programs scheduled? (Score:5, Insightful)
> If you have another programme scheduled at the time the promo airs, then TiVo will record your scheduled programme and will not record the promo. Your own scheduled recordings always take priority.
> If you are watching Live TV at the time TiVo will ask permission to change channels to record the Promo. Note if you are not around to say no TiVo will go ahead. I *think* the buffer up to the time of the channel change will still be available.
As a TiVo user, this really doesn't bother me. It is a possible alternate source of revenue for TiVo, which is always good. I've noticed them before (as other US TiVO users) and I've watched a few.
As long as it's available as an option only on the front menu, doesn't take up my recording space (they use some 'reserved space'), it doesn't force me to watch it, and it doesn't otherwise restrain my usual TiVo use, I really don't think it's a problem at all.
The TiVo is a tool that changes your TV watching habits in such a way that you may not be exposed to new shows as a normal commercial-watching viewer. While it (on principle) bothers me that it ignores parental controls, especially for a show with bad language, this is a tolerable way of letting you know about new shows.
Re:Invasion of privacy? (Score:3, Informative)
Trolling, ignorance and xenophobia - three strikes (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh wait. I forgot, that's all gone in the UK.
Yeah, troll away. Be an ignorant fool all your life. Take the easy option.
For your information, the British do have some legally enshrined rights to privacy, some granted by British law, others granted by European Union law.
Included in these is Britain's Data Protection Act [dataprotection.gov.uk]. Basically, the DPA governs every detail of how companies treat all the computer-held data that they have on their customers, employees, etc.
One nice benefit of the DPA is that I can demand a company disclose all the information that they have on me. They can charge a nominal fee for this (£10 ~ US$15) but they must comply within a set time limit. And, obviously, if their information is incorrect or harmful in any way they can be made to correct it (and I have the right to take appropriate legal action if I want to).
Now, I can demand that of my credit card provider, my bank, my doctor, my employer, my accountant, my gym, my golf club or anyone else who holds information about me. Try asking that of similar institutions in the US and elsewhere and see how far you get.
Yes, our laws are different. Yes, you have some rights that you'd cut off your right arm than give up (gun ownership anyone?) but, remember, we have some that you'd cut off the other one too to have.
Re:And apparently, the company doesn't care... (Score:2)
(Some were positive.)
Re:Planning it from the get go (Score:2)
I wonder if this "reserved space" is the same thing as the space that some people lost when upgrading from version 1 to 2? If so, then saying that this was without cost to the user, is pretty slimey.
I like my Tivo a lot more than not having a Tivo. But ever since I got it -- nay, even before I got it -- I have wanted to replace it with something non-proprietary. And someday I will, precisely because of demonstrations such as this, which prove that it is suboptimal equipment with intentional compromises -- not designed to be as pleasing as it could be.
Tivo was philosophically flawed from the very beginning, because of their relationship with "partners", instead of focusing on the users exclusively. You can't serve two masters.
Re:TiVo are whores to advertising (Score:2)
Re:Laughable (Score:2)