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Copy That Floppy? Go To Jahannum (Hell) 667

Posted by chrisd from the as-salaam-alinux-wa-rahmatullah-wa-barakatuhu dept.
andrewdm writes "The Business Software Alliance has a new partner: the grand muftis at Al Azhar in Cairo. The New York Law Journal has an article explaining the new holy(?) alliance between the BSA and the highest religious authorities in the Egyptian Sunni Islam sect. The clerics issued a fatwa (holy edict) against piracy, saying it is "the worst type of theft and prohibited by Islam." What's next? The Pope denouncing mp3's as mortal sins?" The worst type of theft, indeed.
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Copy That Floppy? Go To Jahannum (Hell) More

Copy That Floppy? Go To Jahannum (Hell)

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  • Church of FSF.... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Etcetera ( 14711 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:13PM (#3619981) Homepage

    What's next? The Pope denouncing mp3's as mortal sins?"


    How about Richard Stallman denouncing non-"free software" as the same?
    • No, according to RMS, the worst sin is ommitting the "GNU/" from the Linux name.
    • Yeah, only difference is Stallman isn't a dogmatic leader to 2 billion people (see here [adherents.com] for statistics). You wouldn't believe how much power over the masses the Pope has. I've seen people flock to the streets and wait for 2-3 hours just to catch a glimpse of his holiness passing by (yes, 2 hours waiting for a 5-second sighting). And people absolutely refusing to compromise on ANY point the Pope has decided on, is totally frustrating.

      Plus, RMS's views are definitely more open to debate than the Pope's (or the church's for that matter). No chance of me getting excomulgated for saying RMS is an asshole (which i don't think he is, but anyway).

      • From the same site, you see here: http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Christi anity that only 1 billion are catholic, about 400 million Protestant, 300 million other, 200 million orthodox, and 70 million anglican.

    • He's already done that. OK... since he's an atheist he doesn't denounce things as "mortal sins" but he says proprietary software is immoral, which is about as close as you are going to get from an atheist.

  • Worst type of theft? (Score:3, Funny)

    by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:14PM (#3619985) Homepage Journal
    So the worst type of theft is the kind that causes the least physical loss.

    THEY STOLE MY ELECTRONS!!!
    • Shouldn't that be "THEY MADE DUPLICATES OF MY ELECTRONS!!!"?

      And some stuff for the lamness filter.
    • No, the worst typ of theft is when they use an illegal number [utm.edu].
      That's really low!
      Why should the public be allowed to use copyrighted or otherwise proprietory numbers?
      It's not like numbers should be free, free numbers would DESTROY THE ECONOMY!
      Think of the children!
    • "causes the least physical loss"

      But it arguably has the greatest overall loss to society, if you consider intellectual achievements and discoveries to be superior to physical and materialistic ones. Just as normal theft acts as a disincentive toward regular commerce, piracy works as a disincentive toward developing IP that requires a substantial amount of time/effort/money. I could see why potentially robbing the world of future discoveries might be considered the worst form of theft.

      • Since when is this robbing society of future discoveries. Think of all the people who will create art and invention from software they couldn't afford to buy but wanted to play with. Or will become insipired to listen to different music then mainstream and come up with new styles of music. I'm not saying piracy is good....its an element of society and will always be so...and i'd rather have someone rip off my MP3s then my stereo anyday
      • "piracy works as a disincentive toward developing IP that requires a substantial amount of time/effort/money"

        Not sure if I completely agree with that, although I do see your point. Think about it, though: Video games are copied alot, yet the video game industry is very healthy despite a poor economy. You'd think that the Game Industry would be pushing the SSSCA, but they're not. They understand that some people are going to steal stuff, not much they can do about it without costing them way too much money. Their goal is not to stop piracy, just slow it down while their window is open.

        As for 'robbing the world of future discoveries..' I may not be interpreting that 100% correctly, but it seems to me that when it publically known how to build something, that isn't the end of that product. Lots of companies make network cards, they're still doing fine.

        As I said, I may not have fully understood your point. I apologize if I gave it the wrong meaning. I just think that saying it's the worst kind of crime is overboard. Even in the worst case scenario, we, as a society, will pull through. It's not the same as robbing a country entirely of all it's food.

      • I could also see why they might label it as the worst kind of theft because...

        ...the victim is totally defenseless. A shopkeeper might shoot you. Even an old lady might struggle for her purse, but a creator whose social contract is broken has no defense. So in this regard the pirate is worse than someone who snatches a purse from an old lady.

      • How does making bootleg copies of Brittney Spears albums become "potentially robbing the world of future discoveries?" We're not talking about scientific discoveries here (Which, arguably, benefit from wide desimination - the antethisis of what the MPAA, BSA, RIAA, etc., want) we're talking about copying music, software, and movies.

        The copies are almost invariably of lower quality than the originals (MP3 and DivX aren't as sharp as the original. We won't even go into degredation of video tape) and often prompt people to go out and buy an original copy rather than the bootleg.

        The BSA getting a religion involved in supporting their corporate sire's business model is just wrong.

        While I agree that ideas and intellectual discoveries are more valuable to a culture than physical objects, that is NOT what we're talking about here. We're talking about "intellectual property" holders using dirty tactics to try and push their agenda.

        Anecdotaly, everyone seems to forget the Greatful Dead and them actively encouraging people to tape and spread their concert performances. Did it "hurt" them to have the bootlegs out there? Hell no! It got them spread to a wider audience, and, ultimately, contributed to their success. Has Linux or BSD been hurt by being spread freely and widely?

        I would have to say that Linux as a phenomena pretty much disproves your argument that this kind of "theft" hurts the culture, or disinclines people from developing new (and better!) ideas. Wide dissemination of ideas helps spread those ideas.

  • hahaha (Score:2, Funny)

    by Mr. Mysterious ( 545880 )
    New EULA... Do you accept this agreement that if you pirate this you will burn in hell [ ] No I don't want to roast [ ]
  • Just when I thought there was nothing else the BSA could do to surprise me...

    • Re:Outdoing themselves... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @07:34PM (#3620731)
      > Just when I thought there was nothing else the BSA could do to surprise me...

      ~ wavy lines as I shift into a new timeline ~

      9/11/2022: 19 terrorists, operating with the support of Osama Bin Valenti and Yasser Rosen (well, at least the Israelis and Palestinians sorted out their differences ;-), defeated security checkpoints, boarded, and took control of, four 747-class unmanned-aerial-freighters (UAFs) containing full loads of Celine Dion CDs and Pauly Shore DVDs, and flew the aircraft directly into the chip fabs of Intel, AMD, the main offices of the Free Software Foundation.

      The fourth aircraft, its target unknown, was downed harmlessly over water when a skilled hacker on the ground figured out what was going on, and managed to succesfully reverse-engineer, decrypt, and override the terrorists' jamming signal, regaining partial control of the aircraft using nothing but a CB radio, a Pringles can, a laptop, and an old 802.11b card. "Yeah, it was scary, but thanks to the fact that I was able to pick up on the basics of programming by kindergarten, and I had to reverse-engineer some arbitrary code samples for my high school entrance exams, it wasn't too hard to figure out how to take the plane back. Thank God they repealed the DMCA, or I'd have never had the chance to develop these skills. I only had a couple of watts of transmitter power, and I didn't have enough time to set up a distributed computing network to crack the entire protocol, so all I could do was point it over water and send it down before my batteries ran down. They can't win. All their base are belong to us!"

      The 20th hijacker, Zaccarias Eisner, is still at large. Authorities in the previous administration had, in fact, detained him in 2013, but had been forced to released him under direct order of Attorney General Hollings.

      The final transmission from one of the doomed freighter aircraft was recorded as "I say to you that the universal Turing machine is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston Taliban Stranglers are to women home alone without their burkhas! Free Software has made our industry bleed and bleed and hemorrage! We shall not stop our jihad against the Great Satan of fair use!"

      Noam Chomsky, commenting on CNN from the Shady Hippy Retirement Home, said "[...]we have to look past the destruction of our information technology industry and find the root cause of the cycle of violence - the Supreme Court's 2004 declaration of the DMCA as unconstitutional, and Congress' failure to pass the CBDTPA or any of its variants by 2005 - followed by the rapid rollout of broadband wireless P2P meshes networks, all led to the collapse of the Hollywood's business model, the consequent radicalization of members of the Hollywood media elite, ultimately leading to the tragic events of 2022. It's all still America's fault."

      President Stallman and Vice President Raymond, along with Senate Majority Leader Torvalds, (they settled their differences in 2009, as Mozilla 1.0 finally shipped as part of the "Really Really Unified Distro" :-) broadcasting from an undisclosed location, issued a joint statement: "You are either with us or you are with the Hollywood Cartel."

      House Minority Leader Gates, and Senate Minority Leader Ballmer issued a joint statement: "Although we differ from the administration on the point of free software, we agree with them on the fundamental issue - the trillion-dollar technology industry cannot allow itself to bow down to the $60B entertainment industry. Sure, we'd prefer you be using .WMA instead of .MP3 or .OGG, but today is no day for partisan games. The bottom line is that if you don't download your indie music for free -- if you're still paying $29.99 for copy-protected Britney Spears and Celine Dion WAV files -- then the terrorists have won."

      ~ wavylines ~

      ...as I return with apologies to the real victims from the real fanatics in the crappy time-line we got stuck with.

  • Worse type of theft? Spamming (Score:3, Interesting)

    by strredwolf ( 532 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:15PM (#3619993) Homepage Journal
    What's worse, the Pope is letting spammers steal from the Vatican -- the Vatican has an open relay, and I wouldn't be suprized that some of the preists are spamming themselves.

    Proof? GoogleGroups search of news.admin.net-abuse.sightings for Vatican [google.com]. Some only reference in the spam message, but you'll find a few relayed through.

  • It may sound bad, but consider (Score:4, Funny)

    by VFVTHUNTER ( 66253 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:16PM (#3619995) Homepage
    that religious Islamic fanatics are perhaps *more* moderate than the BSA.

    Maybe the new partnership with Egypt will help the BSA to tone down its image?

    I think it's a sad day when I don't know which organization is more extreme :)

  • BSA shows it's colors (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mikethegeek ( 257172 ) <blair.NOwcmifm@comSPAM> on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:17PM (#3620004) Homepage
    This is not intended as a flame, but as an observation... At a time when the USA is threatened with "holy war" by organized Middle Eastern Islamic terrorists, the BSA induces Sunnite clergy to declare the same thing on copyright infringement?

    But then, I consider the BSA a terrorist organization. Terror IS their weapon.

    What's next, planes crashing into the homes of people who run LimeWire?

    I'm sorry, but this to me is rather like Stalin giving Hitler's genocide policy an endorsement. These same Islamic clergy refuse to unequivocaly condemn the actions of Bin Laden.

    • Re:BSA shows it's colors (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ender81b ( 520454 ) <{wdinger} {at} {gmail.com}> on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:34PM (#3620110) Homepage Journal
      But then, I consider the BSA a terrorist organization. Terror IS their weapon

      Hold on there cowboy. I hate the BSA as much as the next person but they are *not* a terror organization. Saying so makes you sound remarkably like the talking heads on tv and the politicians who attach the 'terrorist' label to anything they don't like.

      the BSA is an organization that uses fear and extortion to accomplish it's goals, remarkably similar to terrorism eh? The parallels stop there. The BSA accomplishes its goals within the law. Sure the law might be horribly flawed, but the BSA does work within it, and if they break the law they do pay.

      What the BSA does not do is send suicide bombers, assasinations, bombs, planes, and violence to kill and murder innocent people.

      Call them whatever you like; asspirates,jack-booted thugs,cum-guzzling gutter sluts,- whatever, but terrorists they are not.
      • The BSA accomplishes its goals within the law

        Hmmm, sort of. I'm not so sure their lobbying tactics could stand very close scrutiny under election financing laws, or other rules that regulate how politicians can be influenced. The problem is that everyone in the Capitol seems to have a somewhat fragile roof so they better keep all stones unthrown.

        The BSA tactics do seem less mortal than the terrorists. However, consider how many people are unemployed worldwide because the sofware cartel keeps their prices artificially high. At the very bottom of the pyramid, how many people are starving to death? No, of course, people who use software at work do not starve when unemployed, but what about the housemaids or gardeners they could not employ? Everything is connected and wealth does trickle down, even if it's not PC to say so.

      • The definition of terrorism (Score:4, Insightful)

        by seldolivaw ( 179178 ) <me.seldo@com> on Friday May 31, 2002 @06:08PM (#3620290) Homepage
        Illegality is not part of the definition of terrorism. Terrorism is using tactics the promote fear in the general public to force leaders to do what you want. What the BSA does is promote fear in the minds of the leaders so they pass laws that force the public to do what they want.

    • What crap (Score:5, Insightful)

      by donutello ( 88309 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:47PM (#3620188) Homepage
      At a time when the USA is threatened with "holy war" by organized Middle Eastern Islamic terrorists, the BSA induces Sunnite clergy to declare the same thing on copyright infringement?

      I am not a muslim but there is a big difference between Middle Eastern Islamic terrorists and Islam itself.

      Islamic terrorists are a group of people who commits acts of terror in the name of Islam. True, they have the support of some members of the clergy but that doesn't make the religion itself evil.

      Your analogy is more like saying the Pope is evil because there are anti-abortion terrorists who take his words about abortion being a sin very literally and commit acts of terror against people who don't behave according to their wishes.

      So is GW evil for meeting with the Pope while visiting Europe? Is Italy guilty of harboring an evil terrorist?

      I'm sorry, but this to me is rather like Stalin giving Hitler's genocide policy an endorsement. These same Islamic clergy refuse to unequivocaly condemn the actions of Bin Laden.

      Are you sure of that? Do you have a source you can point me to which mentions the Egyptian Sunnite clergy and a refusal to condemn Bin Laden? Or did you just pull that out of your ass based on reports of some members of some clergy in some muslim country refusing to condemn Osama?

    • Re:BSA shows it's colors (Score:5, Interesting)

      by haledon ( 43675 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @06:03PM (#3620267)
      I'm not looking to start a flame war, but as a Sunni Muslim, I have to make a statement here.

      First of all, I was born and raised in the US. Of all the Islamic sects, Sunnis are, arguably, the most tolerant. Of Sunnis, I am Hanafi, which is the most tolerant and liberal.

      So, in short, I'm as American as anyone else (what ever that means), quite liberal, by American standards, and perhaps even too liberal by Islamic standards.

      I think the alliance between the BSA and the clerics is pretty stupid. I won't get into that right now. But comparing this endorsement to Stalin giving Hitler's genocide policy an endorsement is an ignorant blanket statement. (Please note, I am not using ignorant in a derogatory manner. I am using it in the literal sense-- you need more education on the issue.)

      I don't think I can count the number of Islamic organizations that have publicly condemned Bin Laden, both in English and in Arabic, both domestically and internationally.

      Now, in terms of support against Bin Laden, Egypt has been one of the most supportive countries of US foreign policy. I'd also like to point out it's one of the more liberal countries, as evidenced by the fact that it was the first Arab state to publicly acknowledge Isreal, and one of only two (Jordan, being the other) with formal peace treaties with Isreal.

      Also, FYI:
      The strangeness as well as the extremity of the New York attacks has been reflected in the strenuous denunciations we have heard from Muslim leaders around the world. For them, this has been a rare moment of unity. Mohammed Tantawi, rector of Cairo's Al-Azhar University, the highest institution of learning in the Sunni world, has bitterly condemned the outrages [9/11 attacks].
      source: http://www.islamfortoday.com/murad04.htm [islamfortoday.com]

      By the way, in case you're wondering, I'm not Egyptian, nor am I even Arabic or Middle Eastern.

      So, please, I invite you to make an observation when a stupid decision is made. Whether someone is Islamic, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, or what ever, a stupid press release is a stupid press release. If you're going to make analogies, just please make sure they're accurate.

      Feel free to email me directly if you have any questions, or would like any further information. jyamisha@NO_SPAM_PLEASE.hotmail.com

    • I think we have a new addendum to Godwin's Law now. I mean, come on. Even relating the BSA to a terrorist organization should be enough to nullify your argument, yet you continue on to be more trollish.

      Here's an RFC for the addendum:
      * Relating any organization (NPO or For-profit) or company to a terrorist group.
      * Relating any of that organizations target or practices to plane crash attacks.

  • How much it cost them (Score:5, Funny)

    by Erris ( 531066 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:18PM (#3620008) Homepage Journal
    Ha, ha, ha, "techical assistance"!

    After nearly a decade of U.S. persuasion and $7 million in technical IP assistance, a new IP law is under debate in the Egypt parliament. The law's authors hope that it will pass before the People's Assembly begins its summer recess on June 30.

    FOR SALE, 65 Million like new Egyptians. Good condition, hardly abused. $7,000,000 OBO.

  • bad. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by EpochVII ( 212896 )
    I have to admit this is probably the most horrible thing I've ever read. If anyone is going to hell its the members of Islam who would align themselves with such a terrible organization.
    • Hey, watch it. There's a difference between Islam, the religion, and oppressive Islamic organizations.

      For instance, I have a good friend who is a Catholic. Does she molest children? No. There's a major difference between the personal religion of Catholicicsm and the pope-ruled Catholic Church.

      'sides, what is it the Christians say? Judge not lest you be judged yourself or some such? :P

  • Good works (Score:4, Funny)

    by McSnickered ( 67307 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:20PM (#3620019)
    I think the BSA should team up with the Boy Scouts of America. They could share an acronym, and add a few lines to the scout law:

    A scout is-
    Trustworthy
    Loyal
    Not a software pirate
    Helpful
    Friendly
    Courteous
    Willing to abide by legal licensing agreements
    Kind
    Obedient to the will of Microsoft
    Cheerfully paying outrageous prices for MS Office
    Thrifty
    Brave
    Clean - Hard Drive
    Reverent

    • Re:Good works (Score:5, Insightful)

      by binaryDigit ( 557647 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:42PM (#3620166)
      Willing to abide by legal licensing agreements

      Does this include the GPL?

      I know, flame away, dock me a point, but the same people who whine about attempts to keep people from "pirating/breaking license agreements" will be the same ones who blast Sony for not following the GPL to the letter.
      • The question is not about following the law. It's about having the source code freely available or not. Before software became a consumer item, source code came along with software, you could modify it, according to your needs. Today, no matter how much you pay, very few companies will give you the source.

        A specific example: I work for a communications company that owns and operates satellites. We want to know *exactly* what each bit is doing, because the slightest failure can (and sometimes does) mean the loss of a hundred million+ dollar spacecraft. Yet, companies that supply software for satellite control do not supply source code anymore. What are they thinking, that we would sell pirated CDs with software for controlling a Boeing HS376 satellite at a street corner somewhere? And it's not a security question either, if you know enough to use the software to control a satellite, you know how to destroy the satellite without using software.
        • It does not prohibit someone from buying or otherwise obtaining a distributed copy

          What ever the justification might be, we're still talking license agreements. That the GPL has a noble reason for restricting the use of it's software means nothing from a legal standpoint. We can not justify being hypocritical about the following of license agreements by saying that we don't agree with the reasoning behind company x's license. If I thought the idea of GPL was bogus and was going to destroy software as we know it, doesn't give me a moral (not to mention legal) leg to stand on if I decide to ignore the GPL.

          I fully understand the reasoning behind the GPL, but the fact is that the GPL has that word in it, yes the L word. It's still a license, that we would all like others to follow regardless of their reasons for why they don't want to.
    • I think the BSA should team up with the Boy Scouts of America.

      I think the Boy Scouts of America should sue Buisness Software Alliance ala World Wildlife Foundation, vs World Wrestling Federation/Entertaimnent.

      1911 is when the Boy Scouts of America was founded. Buisness Software Alliance was founded in 1988.

    • Re:Good works (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Digitalia ( 127982 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @06:22PM (#3620343) Homepage
      Is Office really overpriced when the whole of the software market is considered? Macromedia Flash is $499.00, Adobe Photoshop is $609.00, and 3ds Max is $3495.00. Hell, Times New Roman, that ubiquitous font, costs $95.99. I fail to see how a quality word processor, a tool as specialized as any of these others, should not cost as much. Furthermore, I can't help but wonder what the response would be if Microsoft sold Office for 30 bucks. Wouldn't they then be criticized for using their monopoly powers to sell their product, at a loss, such that they could further dominate the word processing market?

      • Re:Good works (Score:3, Insightful)

        by ChaosDiscord ( 4913 )
        Macromedia Flash is $499.00, Adobe Photoshop is $609.00, and 3ds Max is $3495.00. Hell, Times New Roman, that ubiquitous font, costs $95.99. I fail to see how a quality word processor, a tool as specialized as any of these others, should not cost as much.

        Specialization of the tool is irrelevant. More relevent is the cost to develop the software, the cost to reproduce the software, and finally the number of users whom those costs are divided amoung. Few users, higher price to recoup costs. Lots of users, lower price. (And if the price isn't low enough, and the famous "invisible hand" is working, a competitor will emerge. Sadly, there are lots of things prevents the invisible hand for working...) Flash, Photoshop, and 3D Studio Max are extremely specialized in terms of their market. The market for a general office package is orders of magnatude larger.

        Mind you, not knowing how much it cost Microsoft to develop Office, I can't say whether Microsoft Office is overpriced. My point is simply that comparing it to products with significantly smaller markets is a bad idea.

  • In Further News (Score:4, Funny)

    by GMFTatsujin ( 239569 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:21PM (#3620024) Homepage
    Jesus, Mohammad, Buddah and Ra the Sun God have been elected to serve on the High Council of the RIAA.

    Nicholas, Patron Saint of Thieves, has been strangely silent on the matter.
    GMFTatsujin

  • OK.. someone who knows islam (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:21PM (#3620026)
    Someone want to clear up exactly what this means? I don't really know a lot about islam, but i know that depending on who uses it, the word "fatwa" can mean different things. Between:
    1. This thing is immoral and wrong, and the church of islam frowns on it. (I.E., the "look, religions usually have associated value + morality systems" meaning)
    2. We are declaring holy war on this thing; in heaven, it is abhorred by the Lord and unholy over nigh all else, and on earth, the church is excommunicating those who partake in it; you may not do this, you may not consider this, you may not associate with anyone who does this, you may not associate with anyone you know to associate with other people who associate with other people who do this. (I.E., the "kill salman rushdie or anyone who harbors him" meaning)
    So: given the political/religious environment in Egypt, and given the sort of person that the cleric who issued this fatwa, and given the degree of extremism that that form of islam tends to take in Egypt, what does this "Fatwa" mean? If it's closer to the reasonable first, i'm fine with that; there is DEFINITELY an entire spectrum of moral gray areas associated with intellectual property theft, but in the end people do have some sort of right to be compensated for art and technology they have given to their fellow humans. If it's closer to the foaming second, and if they are going to ignore any moral gray areas and take an RIAA party line without considering such things as "what is a DMCA", well, i'm a bit bothered.

    anyone know?

    - super ugly ultraman

    • Re:OK.. someone who knows islam (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 31, 2002 @06:31PM (#3620371)
      Well a couple of points:

      Firstly a "Fatwa" is mearly an opinion it is not binding in any way. So if a cleric issues a Fatwa as a Muslim you are not bound to it if you do not agree with that opinion.

      Secondly this Fatwa is actually wrong because in Islam copyrights and patents are not allowed, there are two reasons for this. The first being that it comes under "hoarding of wealth". The second is because in Islam you acknowledge that God is the creater of the universe, hence the holder of all knowledge and since you are part of that creation you can not claim to "own" any knowldege you gain as it is the result of your existance which of course you owe to God. Just imagine that God is the holder of all interlectual property.

      Thirdly the head of the religious institions in countries like Egypt are appointed by the government and are basically puppets and are in no means regarded as authoritive figures with regards to the Koran. As a side note, one of the most respected Islamic scolars is an American who converted when he was 18.

      Anyhow I hope that clears some things up, but to sum things up this fatwa is basically bullshit.

  • Worst Indeed (Score:2, Funny)

    by 1029 ( 571223 )
    The top of the list is something like this:

    1. Software Piracy
    2. Stealing from the Church
    3. Stealing God's pants
    4. Stealing someone's immortal soul
    ...

    As you can see, the heirarchy starts at digital concerns, and gets to the lesser matters a bit later. Real forward thinking I must say.
  • What's next? The Pope denouncing mp3's as mortal sins?

    Just because something is denounced doesn't automatically stop all people from doing it. Let's see...drugs, sex, smoking, copyright violations(!), etc. Sure, such a declaration may very well have impact on the devout, but I take these announcements more so as a political statement (which is fine) than anything else.

  • worst kind of theft (Score:2, Insightful)

    by pohl ( 872 )
    The worst kind of theft? Even worse than the kind of theft that deprives the victim of the object you've taken? The stuff folks will believe...

  • Punishment??? (Score:4, Funny)

    by SeaCrazy ( 312000 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:24PM (#3620052) Homepage
    Will the punishment for this worst sort of theft be in the traditional style of Islam?

    Pirate software, we'll cut off the left side of your keyboard.

  • Caught? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Peridriga ( 308995 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:24PM (#3620053)
    Breaking news
    A 35-year old man was caught today with a disk containing MP3's. He was arrested, convicted, and sentenced within 30 minutes of capture. A statement made by a local officer explained the point that this mans capture was "needed to set an example to all who wish to disobey Allah!".


    After his sentencing he was brought to the town square where they chopped off his floppy.

  • A useful fatwa (Score:2, Insightful)

    by peacefinder ( 469349 )
    From a spiritual point of view, I can see how this is a good idea. But from a practical point of view, I'd think a fatwa against suicide bombing would be a lot more helpful.

    Sigh.

  • haha- this cracks me up (Score:3, Funny)

    by Graspee_Leemoor ( 302316 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:26PM (#3620064) Homepage Journal
    "Copyright is my right. Buy a license or you'll have trouble with the police," croons Egyptian pop singer Shaban Abd el-Reheem on his latest album"

    Great lyrics! Can you imagine buying Metallica singing:

    "Respect respect respect our intellectual property!

    If...
    You...
    Copy our music,

    You'll be in trouble!

    With the POLICE!
    With the POLICE!
    WITH THE POLICE!"

    graspee

  • Great! (Score:4, Funny)

    by 1010011010 ( 53039 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:26PM (#3620066) Homepage
    Someone notify Cheney that the BSA is in league with Islamists! He'll bomb the fuckers! It'll be on CNN! We all win!
  • The clerics issued a fatwa (holy edict) against piracy, saying it is "the worst type of theft and prohibited by Islam." What's next?

    They will issue another fatwa that says "if you denounce someone that is using illegal software to the BSA, you will be awarded one virgin in heaven for each illegal copy they apprehend".

  • authoritarian governments eat this stuff up (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Dr. Awktagon ( 233360 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:28PM (#3620079) Homepage

    They already have "morality police" who enforce dress codes and prayer and stuff, why not add another excuse to exercise power over your citizens?

    All governments seek power over their citizens. Some have to be more creative (like USA government) because of Constitutional limitations, but that's a minor detail.

    Note that in the Middle East, religious organizations are intertwined with the governments the same way corporations are in the USA. i.e., the government is a puppet for them. How convenient that big business and religion can find common ground on this one!

  • Worst type of theft? Well that's just great, now sleazy men can no longer be accused of the worst type of theft when the rob a girl of her virginity... Score one for the- awww, crap.

    ;)
  • "'Copyright is my right. Buy a license or you'll have trouble with the police,' croons Egyptian pop singer Shaban Abd el-Reheem on his latest album"

    Great lyrics! Can you imagine Metallica singing:

    "Respect respect respect our intellectual property!

    If...
    You...
    Copy our music,

    You'll be in trouble!

    With the POLICE!
    With the POLICE!
    WITH THE POLICE!"

    graspee

  • Chop my hand off for Warez? This is insane! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by vkg ( 158234 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:31PM (#3620096) Homepage
    Ahh, this is too good - finally the future takes a twist even Bruce Sterling couldn't predict.

    But seriously, this is actually pretty impressive: the weight of Islamic law behind software theft. I'm not familiar with the situation in Egypt, but in a lot of places (like Saudi Arabia) the penalty for theft is having your hand cut off. First left, then right.

    You heard me right: people may be getting their hands cut off for pirating software.

    As I've said before on the dot, our choices, in the long run, are

    1> To comply with Copyright Law as it stands, whether we like it or not.

    2> To change the law to something sane.

    It's very much like the War On Drugs - Marijuana is simply not very harmful, grows everywhere, and our jails are full of people doing time for selling a dime bag: even an irrational, impossible-to-enforce law can still ruin lives.

    Copyright is heading towards being this kind of an issue, and we need to take smart action to prevent it before we have college students going to jail for their MP3 collections.

    And poor muslim bastards losing their hands over a pirated copy of Word.

    • Idea for business opportunities! (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:34PM (#3620111)
      And poor muslim bastards losing their hands over a pirated copy of Word.

      Now, just imagine how much money you'll make if you design a good one-handed keyboard... ;)
    • I think that seatbelt laws are better example than Marijuana, but it's all the same thing. The wrong thing is being attacked. Same goes for the "War on Terror". We're attacking the end result of some serious problems. 'Terrorists' would not exist if it wasn't for crappy foreign policy that pisses people off. Killing the terrorists (which is what the war on terror is) doesn't do anything but kill people and piss them off more.

      Same goes for seatbelts, we write tickets to people for not wearing seatbelts, instead of convincing people at a young age that wearing seatbelts and protecting your own life is a good idea, but that because in this country (the United States), and many others, you are free to do as you wish as long as it doesn't harm OTHERS, then you don't have to wear your seatbelt if you don't want to, but it is a good idea.

      I think I lost my train of thought.
      • I'm not convinced that terrorism (or more correctly jihad) is really a product of our foreign policy - the wars between Muslims and Christians predate the foundation of the United States by around a millennium - and the issues have not changed much: control of the Holy Land.
      • Unfortunately taxes I pay may well go to pay your hospital bills if you're badly injured or support your family if you're killed. In this situation, when you're going to be spending my money, I get to have a say in whether you wear a belt or not. Now, if you had a law that said you didn't have to wear a seat belt but if you didn't you had to pick up all of the tab for any injuries to yourself and you're dependents couldn't claim for support from taxpayers that's fine by me. You want this "right" you have to accept the responsibility.
      • 'Terrorists' would not exist if it wasn't for crappy foreign policy that pisses people off.

        That sound's just like the wifebeater's claim that the "bitch" deserved a good beating.

        So did the Blacks "piss off" the Klan and cause lynchings? Did the Jews "piss off" the Nazis and get what they deserved?

        It's the same dumbass argument.

    • Re:Chop my hand off for Warez? This is insane! (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 31, 2002 @06:01PM (#3620263)
      >>And poor muslim bastards losing their hands over a pirated copy of Word.

      Another argument for open source software. Not only do you get the source code, you get to keep all your appendages! Free, modifiable and open to scrutiny, no risk of amputation -- OpenOffice, the complete solution.
    • Copyright is heading towards being this kind of an issue, and we need to take smart action to prevent it before we have college students going to jail for their MP3 collections.

      Impossible! How can that be? You mean, our american college students are stealing? Noooo way !

      It's the fault of people outside US. I have the proof to show you:


      In the music industry, piracy remains rampant -- virtually all international releases are pirated --

      Now, blame it on the Brits, shall we? If you don't believe me, go to a Virgin music store in London, you can see all these pirated american CDs. All international releases are pirated. They said it, it's gotta be true.

    • This could've gone the other way. If I remember my reading correctly there's at least one statement by the Prophet that it is unjust to earn money by means other than working. It would be easy to argue that charging high markups because you have a legal monopoly on distributing AZT/Britney Spears/Microsoft Office doesn't amount to an honest living under Islamic law.

      Whether it would be a sound argument I don't know!
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    I don't understand why every web site needs to set/read cookie, for everything and for nothing. It's ridiculous. It's impossible to find any site that does not try to set cookie.

    I'm using Mozilla (1.0RC3), and I think it's great that it can block cookies from those stupid sites.

    Everyone should be using browser that can selectively block cookies!

  • Witness the awe inspiring, gore splattering, all out rumble! Endure the bone-shaking battle of the century! You will not believe what you see this weekend at the Rosemont Horison! The First Church Of Digital Grepping [humorix.org] will pit it's strength against old-school Islam! Call now! Tickets limited!

  • so let me get this straight...

    A religious order has sold out to business interests probably for financial gain.

    What's next on Slashdot...a story about the shocking corruption of college sports? LOL

    The only thing different about this story is it's Muslims instead of Christians.
  • The RIAA, The MPAA, The BSA, The Muslims, The Church of Scientology. . .

  • Why suprised? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Raskolnk ( 26414 )
    You'd expect most religious leaders to be advocates against theft. If anyone actually still believes in those silly Abrahamic, law-based religions then they ought to listen.

    But, my guess is that the editors think we (the American/European majority here) should care because:
    1. The statement was made by a Muslim, and we ought to do anything we can to get something that makes Islam look silly into the news. (Helps us ignore the embarassing history of the Euro-Christian tradition).
    2. We're all cheap asses, and we don't like to pay for stuff. When anyone says we should pay for something that isn't free we all whine and claim that evil capitalists are trying to make us pay for something we say we don't want anyway.


  • Wasn't this on BBspot not long ago? (Score:3, Funny)

    by G0SP0DAR ( 552303 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:51PM (#3620207)
    http://www.bbspot.com/News/2001/11/riaa.html

  • Christian point of view (Score:4, Funny)

    by stinky wizzleteats ( 552063 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:53PM (#3620215) Homepage Journal

    As one of the tiny community of Christians here at Slashdot, let me point out that Jesus welcomes all, including black hat crackers and warez fiends, and that far from begrudgingly embracing the above parties as repentant sinners, His views on the morality of the mega-rich software vendors doing things such as sending goons to public schools to enforce the use of their products would probably call for those opposing said megacorps to receive the same esteem He granted to those on the fringes in His own time. (read up on some of the disciples)

    On a related note, he would like us to know that Bill Gates is going to hell.(Matt 19:24)

    • I'm not sure I understand your comment at all. Certainly Jesus welcomed sinners of his day, and welcomes "black hat crackers and warez fiends" today, but on the condition that they repent and turn from that course of conduct.

      Read Matthew 7:13-23 [gospelcom.net] and Ephesians 4:17-28 [gospelcom.net].

      Oh, and Mt. 19:24 doesn't say it's impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of the heavens, and it certainly doesn't say anything about hell.

  • So Muslims will have to convert to Free software (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 47PHA60 ( 444748 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:55PM (#3620223) Journal
    Muslims are also not supposed to borrow money with interest, so some in the US have set up 'rent-to-own' companies to help Muslims who abide by this buy houses, cars, and other big-ticket items.

    Being so adaptable, I presume good Muslims will just start investigating Free software.

    Also, as I read these posts, I see a lot of flames against Islam. I am not a Muslim, but as one who was raised in a Christian church, I can see that many high authorities of Islam are like those of the Catholic and other Christian faiths: business people who live well while telling their followers to 'accept their lot in life,' which can mean poverty, paying $250 for an OS that crashes often, or having too many children because birth control is a sin.

    Most of the top religious leaders represent their own interests first, just as the BSA represents the interests of software makers who want to cling to 'shrink-wrap' licensing model, and the RIAA represents those who want to be paid every time you hum a tune to yourself.

    One should not automatically equate Islamic leaders' statements with the beliefs of all Muslims. Just as they condone or refuse to condemn some actions we find mighty upsetting, Western religions have condoned and remained silent on some nasty shit over the centuries (like, say, the Nazi war on Jews).

  • The Qur'an (c) (Score:4, Insightful)

    by WEFUNK ( 471506 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @05:56PM (#3620232) Homepage
    IANAM, but I wonder what would have happened if who ever actually bound and transcribed the first copies of the Qur'an had declared publishing rights and refused to allow the distribution of low cost copies or even public prayer.

    If they had today's laws then the words might have passed into the public domain some 75 years or so after the Prophet rode to heaven, but presumably the actual author (Allah) isn't dead (Nietzsche aside) so they could try to hold on to it indefinitely.

    Okay, that may be a silly way of looking at things, and I guess you could say that Allah or Muhammed would'nt have allowed this, but seriously, shouldn't religous scholars and men of god be more aware that ideas are not really property (or at least not the property of man)?

    The concept of intellectual property is a (useful if done right) legal fiction constructed to encourage innovation (patents, copyrights) and reduce deception (trademarks). Even if you send people to jail I don't understand how breaking such artificial and clearly secular laws can be considered so fundamentally sinful.

    • Re:The Qur'an (c) (Score:5, Interesting)

      by sinserve ( 455889 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @06:23PM (#3620351)
      You can't change the Quran in any way or form. Even if you make a translation,
      you are required to provide the "ayat" and "sura" numbers.

      Muslims belief that the quran as genuine as when God uttered it. But keep in mind
      that the Quran itself was put into writing about 20 years (I am guessing, It was written
      during the ages of the 3rd Khalifa, Othman Bin Afan) after prophet
      Mohamed's death. Before that, it was learnt through memorization. Mohamed (PBUH) himself
      did not read or write (he was praised for being the illiterate who could read, and that is
      the subject of the first "sura" in the Quran.)

      Technically, the Quran hasn't changed since its first writing. There are discrete scriptures
      from around 1200 years ago, and they bare the same format as today's. But all the punctuation
      was added later, as arabic evolved into a written language and a grammar was developed.

      OTOH, the oldest Quran books are not complete and bound. They are missing parts and decayed.
      In islamic history, there were times when libraries and Mosques were burnt by the invaders
      (the mongolians come to mind) and/or by warring factions. There was a time when the largest
      islamic kingdom was not a sunni, as was the case with the "Fatimiyat's" in egypt; so, they
      had the power to modify every Quran book in existance, to suit their needs.

      The Amirs/Kings of distant Islamic colonies and tribes (away from the central empire) were also
      known for misinterpreting and mistranslating the Quran to suit their needs (as was the case in some
      parts of Pakistan, Morroco, and many tribes in "black" Africa.)

      There you have it. The Quran is believed to be intact, Allah says -I paraphrase- "We sent you the Quran and We are responsible for keeping it".
      But then, this Quote itself is from the Quran, and as you have seen, there are many reasons to suspect it undergoing change.

      Cynics don't make good worshipers I guess ;-D

  • This is a really sad thing. Religion has a very bad name in Western civilization due to the many atrocities and lesser injustices committed in its name. Please people: don't confuse the religion of Islam (or Christianity or Buddhism or ...) with these ridiculous petty power plays. If you are curious, look at any original religious texts and you will see a lot of reasonableness that just isn't reflected in the behavior of the clergy/priesthood/whatever. A really interesting statement about this problem is at: http://www.bahai.org/article-1-1-0-1.html [bahai.org] - pick your language.
  • It does not surprise me that some Mullahs, or holy clerics, rebounded from being leaned on by the BSA with outrageous doctrines about IP theft. But what is in store for the poor, unfortunate users, when it comes time for their punishment? Remember, Sunni Islam still believes in an eye for eye, or in this case, they chop off your hand for being a thief. That would make touchtyping much slower, and second offenses are likely to leave you up the creek without anyway to paddle or type on your keyboard.
  • It is really not surprising. The Islamic faith has a definite political component. Muslims would like to live in a society where is Islamic Law is the law of the land. This is part of the political process. Egypt needs to comply with the WTO's TRIPS agreements (Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights). This is just one way to help the government out. It is really a moral statement that is taking place in a political context. (Note that the Christian faith is much less connected to politics than Islam.)
  • Disclaimer: AINAM. Also, IANAL, but you knew that.

    Some Muslims think that copyright is not a part of Islam [murabitun.org].

  • I'm certainly no expert in islamic law, but I can't think of any logical way a cleric could call IP infringement "the worst kind of theft". I realize that the article probably should have been titled "Egyptian Cleric Talks Out Ass", but is there any basis, even within the convoluted logic of sharia, that justifies this position?

  • Political Bias on Slashdot?!?! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cartman ( 18204 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @06:29PM (#3620367)
    The level of political bias on slashdot is absurd.

    Text from the original post:
    "What's next, the pope banning mp3's?"
    "The worst type of theft, indeed."

    Not to mention various posts about how muslim clerics intend to mutilate/castrate those who pirate software, etc.

    A strong argument can be made that pirating is immoral. Islam is a religion that absolutely forbids theft, and taking the product of someone's labor without paying them could easily be construed as theft. Instead of positing counter-arguments, the slashdotters make all kinds of statements as if the prohibition is crazy, fundamentalist, or insane.

    Pirating software could be seen as immoral from many more standpoints than the fundamentalist one. Piracy clearly violates many philosophical principles of ethical behavior. For example, Kant's categorical imperative: the software industry could not exist if everyone pirated, therefore those that do pirate are hypocrites, because in order for them to pirate, they require other people to pay and support the industry.

    Let me answer one or two objections that are very common on slashdot. I am not a lackey of the software industry, or a hireling for Bill Gates (my favorite), or a secret agent for the RIAA. Even if I were, it logically changes nothing.

  • So Piracy Can Get you Hell... (Score:3, Informative)

    by BTWR ( 540147 ) <(moc.oohay) (ta) (3robignacirema)> on Friday May 31, 2002 @06:46PM (#3620463) Homepage Journal
    So copying a friend's King's Quest 5 floppy is going go give you eternal damnation, but suicide bombings against civilians in Israel and New York City get you 41 virgins and eternal paradise?

  • Piracy really is the worst kind of theft! (Score:3, Funny)

    by foxtrot ( 14140 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @06:55PM (#3620516)
    If you call yourself a thief and all you do is pirate, you're a pretty piss poor thief, you should learn better kinds of theft.

    -JDF

  • A Jewish psak on the issue (Score:3, Informative)

    by Apuleius ( 6901 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @07:24PM (#3620685) Journal
    Can be found here. [besr.org] The Rabbi also calls it a no-no, but isn't threatening anyone with hellfire.

  • id Software called it... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Denium ( 537999 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @07:53PM (#3620802) Journal
    Thanks for purchasing DOOM II. We hope you have as much fun playing it as we had making it. If you don't, then something is really wrong with you and you're different and strange. All your friends think DOOM II is great.

    Of course, DOOM II is a trademark of id Software, copyright 1994-95, so don't mess with it. Remember, if you are playing a pirated copy of DOOM II you are going to HELL. Buy it and avoid an eternity with all the other freeloaders.

  • Obviously, something was lost in the translation. (Score:3, Funny)

    by edunbar93 ( 141167 ) on Friday May 31, 2002 @09:04PM (#3621037)
    The clerics issued a fatwa (holy edict) against piracy, saying it is "the worst type of theft and prohibited by Islam."

    It seems that when they say "piracy" they're thinking in terms of the sort of theft that happens on the high seas - where generally pirates board ships, kill all the men, rape all the women (and then throw them overboard), take the children as slaves, and subsequently sell the ship and its accompanying valuables. This is indeed the worst kind of theft. Completely unlike breaking software licenses (and it's worth noting that when you buy software, you basically buy a box of air with the hopes that there's something inside that you can find useful - the contract that you sign by opening the box (?) negates even that.) by giving a copy away to a friend for free, annoying the company that made it because they counted their chickens before they hatched.

    Clearly, there's been some kind of misunderstanding here. :)
  • I can't believe the absolute avarice shown by the BSA. They have put it all this effort to have a religious edict regarding software copyright violations when:
    • terrorists are bombing innocents weekly
    • innocents are starving to death world-wide
    • Pakistan and India are on the brink of war
    • any number of things more worthy of consideration
    This is disgusting. Its like worrying if the icing on your cake is thick enough when you know your neighbor is starving.

    Why don't we see more stories about Muslim's that condem violence and terrorism?

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