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Slashdot Effect, Live and In Person 428

Posted by chrisd from the now-you-can-moderate-locally dept.
Thread writes "This group is getting together slashdot readers all over the world. Check out slashdot.meetup.com to meet up with Slashdot readers in your town." The meetup.com site is pretty much brand new, and it's a fun idea. We thought this was kind of a cool idea and something a bunch of people have asked for in email and in past stories so we thought "let's see what happens."
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Slashdot Effect, Live and In Person More

Slashdot Effect, Live and In Person

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  • But do I REALLY want to meet some of the people here...I think not :)

    Stay on your side of the net and I'll stay on mine :)

  • Problem. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Master_Eagle ( 319575 )
    I do not live in the US, and I do not live in any of the (major) cities given. If I were actually interested, what would I do?
    • I do not live in the US, and I do not live in any of the (major) cities given. If I were actually interested, what would I do?

      How about getting in touch with the owners of the site to see what they could do? If they are serious about making it work, they would probably try to listen and make their model applicable to more settings.
    • There is a way to add venues on the site, so you might want to try that out.

      chrisd

    • Just post a message with the title "Need ticket from to ." The Slashdot Auto-Ticketer will find the best flight and mail a free round-trip ticket to the address you used when you registered for your Slashdot account. Perl rocks.

  • If I go to troll (Score:4, Funny)

    by ObviousGuy ( 578567 ) <ObviousGuy@hotmail.com> on Monday June 17, 2002 @08:45PM (#3719526) Homepage Journal
    Can I show up as an AC?
  • It seems that the /. readers I know are already near me, but getting a chance to meet other prominant members could be interesting.

    Hmmm.... Should I post my trips to Ecuador? Or are most of the readers from the US? ;)

  • Peachy (Score:2, Funny)

    by sheepab ( 461960 )
    Now I can have hoards of slashdot readers slashdot my front door.

  • What do we say (Score:4, Funny)

    by jsse ( 254124 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @08:47PM (#3719540) Homepage Journal
    What do we say when we meet?

    "FIRST POST!"

  • Work people. (Score:4, Funny)

    by saintlupus ( 227599 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @08:49PM (#3719558)
    Hmm. Time to see if my boss reads slashdot.

    If so, time to start posting anonymously.

    --saint

  • Uhh, no. (Score:3, Funny)

    by peterdaly ( 123554 ) <petedaly@@@ix...netcom...com> on Monday June 17, 2002 @08:49PM (#3719561)
    There are others like me in my town? I can get 300k downloads off my cablemodem in the evening since there are so few geeks in my area. You think there is enough of us to have a meeting?

    What are you smoking! That's why I spend my time here.

    -Pete
  • Are a lot of sites doing this now?
    I just started seeing announcements of Fark parties - I think it's a neat idea, especially for people in other countries.
    (Just as long as that goatse guy doesn't show up...)

    Cheers,
    Jim in Tokyo
  • I had this idea but it was slightly different. It was going to be called, meatup.com where meat lovers could get together and talk shop about bar-b-que.

    Oh well - back to the grind stone!

  • Meeting, why not just a LAN party? (Score:5, Funny)

    by peterdaly ( 123554 ) <petedaly@@@ix...netcom...com> on Monday June 17, 2002 @08:54PM (#3719579)
    Who wants to meet? Since when are geeks social? Grab your PC and CAT5 and setup a LAN party into the wee hours of the morning.

    Ouch! I just had a visual of 50 people all trying to get first post...all in the same room.

    -Pete
  • Top 3 bad jokes you will see in this thread:

    3) If we get there first do we get to yell 'FIRST MEET!'???

    2) Will there be moderators monitoring our conversations? If so do I get more karma for imported beer?

    1) Hey man, if we linked them all up together via video conferencing it would be like a Beowulf cluster of /. meetings!!!

  • Good, I hope you show your face. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Typingsux ( 65623 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @08:58PM (#3719601)
    I really want to meet you anonymous coward.

  • Represent, Central PA! I don't wanna be the only Dubois area nerd!

  • OK, now a serious post (Score:5, Interesting)

    by peterdaly ( 123554 ) <petedaly@@@ix...netcom...com> on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:00PM (#3719611)
    This may be a good organized way for us to get political representation. This may offer the physical "grouping" needed to effectivly lobby our elected government officials.

    Maybe try and invite your local congressman to hold a Q/A thing about technology legislation. It makes it easier to organize petitions. Organize a group drop off to his local office when you know he is in...bring the whole group. Can you think of a better way to make a point? Image if this happened at congressional office all over your county (the US in my case.)

    Something like that may be enough of a reason to get me to go to something like this, or at least join the mailing list.

    -Pete

  • FAQ Confusion (Score:4, Funny)

    by waldoj ( 8229 ) <waldo@NOSpAM.jaquith.org> on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:03PM (#3719630) Homepage Journal
    From the FAQ:
    How many people will MEETUP?
    We guess that there will be 4-12 people at a MEETUP. We will try to let you know how many people to expect at your MEETUP.

    What if there aren't enough people for a MEETUP?
    We cancel MEETUPs with less than 5 people signed-up.
    Hmm...so what if one of them is an Anonymous Coward?

    -Waldo Jaquith
  • I will be anonymous coward #45
    • I will be anonymous coward #45

      Doesn't telling us that sorta defeat the point of going AC?

      Still the idea of a place were people could meet anonymously has a certain appeal. Maybe these meetings could grow into something like that.

  • Key difference (Score:5, Funny)

    by ez76 ( 322080 ) <slashdotNO@SPAMe76.us> on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:04PM (#3719632) Homepage
    You get to "moderate" the trolls whether you have points or not.

    (cracks knuckles)

    • Re:Key difference (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Uruk ( 4907 )
      Imagine the scene of a total troll get-together. One guy would be off in the corner pouring hot grits down his pants, while another turned to stone while looking at the large bird perched atop the third's dick. This all being watched over by the goatse guy, who is somewhat occupied trying to, ahem, hold himself shut.

      On the other hand, it might just be a room full of pasty white guys sporting various operating system advertising clothing items all hoping to meet the nonexistant geek girls.

    • Do we get "My Name Is" Badges like on the meetup site?

      And.... I wonder how many people will be named "Anonymous Coward" ;)

      Sorry, it goes without saying, but it nonetheless had to be said.
    • Using your fist probably doesn't scare away the Goatse-trolls though...

  • Not excited. (Score:5, Funny)

    by DarkHelmet ( 120004 ) <.mark. .at. .seventhcycle.net.> on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:06PM (#3719641) Homepage
    Oh wonderful! A couple hundred nerds in my area going to meet geek chicks and finding that none of them turn up.

    I'm sorry, but I'd rather stay at home chatting up guys who *say* they're women than knowing that they're not.

    • A couple hundred nerds in my area going to meet geek chicks and finding that none of them turn up.

      Thats because "geek chicks" are a myth, a legend. This notion of "geek chicks" has been around for decades, to keep your coke-bottle-glasses geek from stopping his coding and trying to get a social life.
      A "geek chick" occupies the same position in the 'real' world as the Unicorn, Sasquatch, Tibetan Yeti and the Loch Ness monster.
      There are rumors of a "geek chick" film (a-la the Patterson/Gimlin [ultranet.ca] film) floating around, but nothing conclusive has been found.

  • 2600 (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ardmhacha ( 192482 )
    Would there not already be a lot of /.ers at these meetings 2600 [2600.com]
  • /. dream chick? do they exist?

    • That depends... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Wee ( 17189 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:55PM (#3719854)
      /. dream chick? do they exist?

      Well, now... that would depend on what you dream about, wouldn't it? If you fancy a single woman who always wished she could run strace on life's problems and has a geek code, then I'd wager you'd probably find someone to your liking. If your tastes run more towards the bottle blond, lipstick lizard, clothes horse types, then I'd think a mall would be a better bet.

      But while I've got you, how about a little piece of free, metaphorical advice from a old fogey: finding women is like fishing. That'sa ll you have to remember. Sounds silly, but it's very true if you examine it for a minute. You don't go fishing with a pole if you want shrimp, and a net won't get you many marlin. And while there are a lot of fish in the sea, they're pretty much concentrated in certain areas. Identifying and then placing yourself in those areas is a primary goal. You'll do better on the coast near the mouth of a river than 800 miles out over deep water maybe. And you need bait to match the fish in your area. You most certainly aren't going to catch cod with balls-o-fire.

      Even still, just being where the most fish are is only half the battle. You have to remember that the volume of water to fish is enourmous. So you have to improve your your odds of hauling in the fish you want by catching lots of fish and only keeping the one(s) you want. Catch-and-release is alive in love as in fishing, trust me. This means you have better chances of hooking that lunker if you are the only boat on the water or if you can fool the fish by thinking you're only boat on the water, say by putting more/flashier/smellier bait in the water. Chum sometimes works, but it also attracts fish you don't want; too much smelt and barracuda and not enough calico bass makes for bad fishing. You also have to be careful because other boats can run off the fish, or into you even. The minute you tangle your lines with those from another guy's boat is the minute you look real long and hard at the fish on the hook. You probably don't want it.

      Anyway, I could go on and on but you get the idea:

      • Figure out what kind of fish you want
      • Get the right kind of bait
      • Get out there where the fish are
      • Get there early so your alone
      • Hook as many as you can while only keeping the good ones
      That's what I did. Good luck to you.

      -B

      • Hey,

        finding women is like fishing. That'sa ll you have to remember. Sounds silly, but it's very true if you examine it for a minute. You don't go fishing with a pole if you want shrimp, and a net won't get you many marlin.

        How would dynamiteing the fish fit into this metaphor? It sounds like my sort of approach.

        Michael

  • Read the License (Score:3, Interesting)

    by fxncnu ( 582689 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:10PM (#3719672)
    It's ironic that Slashdot, which is so against crappy EULA's, has created such a un-friendly Terms Agreement.

    Quoting the license,
    We may amend the Agreement at any time or times by posting the amended terms on our web site. All amended terms shall automatically be effective 30 days after they are initially posted on our web site. This Agreement is effective for all users of our services.
    Does this seem like the "push" system to anyone? What if I'm away for 30 days (vacation) and they create some new crappy Terms like "you must pay us $$$ per $$$ and you can no longer terminate this agreement?" Maybe I'm just paranoid; otherwise, there's something wrong w/ this.

  • 2600 (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Myriad ( 89793 ) <(myriad) (at) (thebsod.com)> on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:13PM (#3719682) Homepage
    Sounds a lot like the 2600 [2600.com] meetings [2600.com].

    Why not just join up with one of them? They are well organized and have been going on for years. /. probably shares much of the same crowd anyway (with perhaps a few less Mitnick fans).

    • Free Kevin (Score:2, Funny)

      by TibbonZero ( 571809 )
      Oh, wait, he is already free..

      Let Kevin Use a Pager... - Damn, doesn't fit on a bumper sticker...
      Ok, who needs freed now? Free MP3s!
      Already have FTP, damn...

  • t-shirts (Score:2, Funny)

    by r00tarded ( 553054 )
    somebody let them know the female t-shirt they show under the "Buy crap to wear at your MEETUP" step will be unnecessary.
  • I wonder if we can ./ a public place IRL just as a Geocities site?...

  • Didn't this bother anyone else? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by handsomepete ( 561396 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:19PM (#3719715) Journal
    I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an insane security freak, but this kinda bothered me. After you sign up look at your address bar (all relevant information changed):

    http://slashdot.meetup.com/?email=x@y.z&password=m ypasswordisbeingprintedinplaintext&terms=on&action =join&zip=00000&localeId=&setLocale=1

    *sigh*...

    • Re:Didn't this bother anyone else? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anenga ( 529854 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:30PM (#3719766)
      Crap! Your right!

      Your mom, or friend or somebody might look over your shoulder and cancel your mailing subscription for slashdot meetups!

      Somebody alarm the IT Department!

      • Re:Didn't this bother anyone else? (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        > Crap! Your right!

        Which would make it your left.
      • Well, from a personal standpoint I was thinking of the guy at my work (where I am currently) who goes through all of the URLs visited during the day. I'm not so stupid as to use my work/important passwords on a site on the internet, but it's the principal. I *always* want to see my password in dots or asterisks or blank space. I never like having them tossed right back at me. Bah. Whatever.

        Someone mod up the AC who made that "your left" joke below. I liked that.

    • You have exactly the same problem on slashdot! Even if your password is not being printed in plaintext in the URL, it's being printed in plaintext in the body of the POST HTTP request when you log in. The only way around that is SSL (https) websites.

      I'm much more concerned about someone getting my slashdot password than getting my slashdot.meetup.com password. And not really too concerned about either, when you come right down to it.

      If this was a problem, how come you never mentioned it before? How did you log in?

  • Does anyone here really want to meet some of these trolls IRL? People who scream "mod me down?".. I thought not... Although, I guess in real life you can just beat them instead of their Karma into the ground..

  • *BSD is Dying is Invited (Score:4, Funny)

    by XBL ( 305578 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:21PM (#3719725)
    Please invite the person who wrote up this oft-posted drivel... so we can beat him/her up.

    Also, be sure to setup some tables for the trolls, and then offer a free round of drinks... laced with something...
    • How about that guy who keeps claiming Stephen King is dead? If there's a gathering in Bangor, Maine where I'd be going, maybe we can get King himself to come give that schmuck a few "Troll"'s upside the head.
    • If you want to beat up trolls, they have already won.
    • I say let's all get rubber hammers, and then finally physically fight out several long term discussions:

      Round 1: is VIM or EMACS the better Editor? Get your hammers ready!

      Round 2: whats the better desktop? KDE or GNOME. 1-2-3 All hammers go!

      Round 3: Which license to choose, GPL or BSD style? Hammer guys, hammer!

      Round 4: Who is the better Star Trek Captain? James D. Kirk or Jean-Leuk Picard? (However they are spelled), Hammer the wrong speller.

      Round 5: The fight of the better kernel: BSD or LINUX! The side group favoring HURD may not be hammered to excesivly, by the BSD or LINUX group, give them a chance.

      Round 6: We'll all split up in several groups and hammer for the best browser!

      Round 7: What Script Language is better, PERL or PYTHON. ( The ones left favoring TCL are to be hammered until they get some sense in their heads.)

      Round 8: Is UnitedLinux a good thing? Hammer, hamm er, hammer!

      Round 9: We'll hammer about the linux kernel development, do we need a patch tracker? Versioning System? Shall we hammer linus a bit? until patches it's no longer so frustracting to get all these patches silently refused?

      Round 10: YOu can exchange all you hammers you've aquired against Karma, Congrats.

  • Genius! (Score:3, Funny)

    by ffatTony ( 63354 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:25PM (#3719750)

    No longer must we verbally assault strangers via the Internet, now we may physically assualt them in person. Thanks Slashdot.

    • No longer must we verbally assault strangers via the Internet, now we may physically assualt them in person. Thanks Slashdot.

      The verbal assaults from the likes of Jerzy Junks, Mister Blister, and other trolls are a recent thing. If you look back two or three years, you won't find them. I doubt the six or seven M$ employees who actually post that kind of crap will show up anywhere. Those that do show up will be the mellow and stuborn folks that refuse to leave despite all the noise.

      Thank you, ffatTony, for providing an excellent demonstration of a sensless, negative and non constructive comment.

  • This meeting thing is totally awesome. It's cool to meet /.ers in the area, but most of them go to my college. RIT and all. But the idea of a real life get together for people who all belong to one internet group is not new, but this site makes it really easy and cool.
    My friends write a webcomic http://www.dubthis.net about anime, and we use the forums to get people together so we can meet at conventions. There are going to be tons of us at http://www.otakon.com in the end of July. At ACen they threw a huge party, and we plan to do the same again.
    If /.ers meet up in the real world they should throw huge parties. If they just meet and brag about their karma and their desktop environments it would totally suck.

  • Should I go? (Score:5, Funny)

    by writermike ( 57327 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @09:29PM (#3719765)
    Who will be attending this meetup?
    So far, the following people have signed up:

    AssFace

    Ummm...
  • Won't this necessarily involve going outside at some point?
  • You find that the kewl people on /. are just spotty 16-year old boys.
  • Quite honestly, I'm afraid to go. People may link my real name to my /. name and recognize that 4/5 times I tend to defend MS technology and even commend MS for their innovations. Maybe since I'm in the Seattle area there will be a few more "on my side" since it's so close to redmond. Nevertheless, I should at least come prepared with a weapon [parksabers.com] to defend myself. Maybe then I wouldn't be afraid to wear the MSDN T-Shirt and ASP.NET hat that I usually wear to similar meetings ;P
  • Wowsa. Imagine Slashdotting a McD's. Swarm the drive-through and counters during staff change-over, or during whatever time they expect to be slacktime.

    Better yet, Slashdot a local restaurant that's more deserving of your business. It'll stress hell outta the chef and waitstaff, but if everyone's generous and leaves a big tip, they'll probably forgive you in the end. :-)
    • Better yet, Slashdot a local restaurant that's more deserving of your business.

      Some restaurants, those who server alcohol at any rate, will tend to comp your food bill if you rack up a huge drink tab.
  • That will make me unique, and help to distinguish me from the other slashdotters in attendence.

    Also, I'll be sure to pepper my conversation with quotes from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Hopefully, someone else will be named Brian - hillarity will surely ensue!
  • Okay, but I'm only meeting in buildings where
    the architectural drawings are freely available
    by a license that RMS approves of.

    jeff
  • When I get pulled over on the drive home - I'll just say "No Ossifer, I'm not drunk, I've been Slashdotted! "


    He'll be sure to let me go!

  • s/MEE/BEA/g

    - A.P.
  • Just in case you didn't look any further than the links, there are plenty [meetup.com] of other topics too. Computer [meetup.com] and non [meetup.com]. Not to mention you can add your own [meetup.com] topics/dates/etc.

  • When I was in college, there was this 24x7 McDonalds operating across the street a couple blocks up from the four big dorm towers. It was the end of the week before finals and many of us were realizing we were really supposed to be studying all semester, so we were playing catchup on that. Anyway, we needed a break, and at 3 AM, the bars weren't an option.

    Someone came down to our floor and announced that 12th floor was going to McD's in 10 minutes, and to spread the word. I ran down to 6th and told them. We were all to meet at the back door closest to McD's. 10 minutes later there were people just pouring out the door. A rough head count put the number at 400. I didn't know that many college students studied.

    400 students flooding into McDonalds at 3 AM was definitely a very interesting sight, especially that everyone lined up to order food. Fortunately because it was the end of the semester they had put on a couple extra cashiers. But it did take about half an hour to get all the orders put through. And no, they did NOT run out of fries, but all the fruit tart things were gone. It was definitely SRO. Two police cars came by, but they just stayed outside and watched.

    About 300 remained at about the time most people were ready to head back. Right after we crossed the empty street and mostly lined up on the sidewalk heading back to the dorms, one car came by on our side of the street. Everyone thumbed for a ride. It didn't stop.

  • I can't stand most of these people online! Why, in gawds name would I want to meet them in person?

    • Re:Oh, gawd no! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @10:46PM (#3720031) Journal
      (* I can't stand most of these people online! Why, in gawds name would I want to meet them in person? *)

      Indeed. If you think our words are ugly, wait until you see the rest of us.

      If we were pleasent and meetable, we would be out shooting pool or flirting or dancing or something. Instead, we hide behind text and argue about nerdy things such as how much OOP sucks rotton eggs and trying to guess the percentage probability that we will get marked as "troll" in the process.

      Actually, I like working at engineering companies. Lunch is much more interesting with geeks (just try not to look them/us in the face). Geeks talk about robots, second guess osama, parachute accidents, etc. That to me beats what non-nerds talk about: movies, sports, lottery, and gossip about who bleeped who.

      However, it takes a while to work into that mode with geeks. One meeting is not enough. The first meeting all geeks do is think, "please God, tell me I not as gawky as that dweeb." Then when reality is finally accepted (you are one of us, stop fighting it), the fun starts.

  • lets slashdot a bar! (Score:5, Funny)

    by deft ( 253558 ) on Monday June 17, 2002 @10:44PM (#3720022) Homepage
    lets get a couple hundred people to try and get into a small bar running a 1 bartender server system, and see if he can handle the load.

    with this many people, it should be pretty easy to over run the bar buffer and get into the back end areas like the kitchen and accounting areas.

    ahhh, the REAL slashdot effect in person.

  • I'd be too damn embarrassed to go.

    "Hi, ya'll. I'm a geek, my name is Amit, my friends call me Pikachu."

    One time, when I went to my school's programming club, I gave that same introduction, and some guy said, "I guess I'll call you Amit then."

    Yeah, public gatherings of people with likeminded interests aren't really my thing... Just remember to do an Ask Slashdot with "So what happened at your International Slashdot Meetup meeting?" a day or so after it happens.
  • NOOOOOOOOOOO! DAMMIT, DAMMIT, DAMMIT, DAMMIT, DAMMIT!

    Thank you, /. and meetup.com for totally screwing over my entire life!

    I just ran into Jon Katz at one of them there meetup.com social mixers and found him to be funny, thoughtful & intelligent.

    NOW WHAT AM I GOING TO BITCH ABOUT?!??!

    ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

  • After I signed up for this I realized...

    ...you can't spell "MEETUP" without M-E-E-P-T.

    IHBT. IHL.

    I hope I have a nice day. Though I doubt it.

    k.

  • Other MeetUps (Score:3, Funny)

    by Swaffs ( 470184 ) <swaff@@@fudo...org> on Monday June 17, 2002 @11:10PM (#3720130) Homepage
    Sadly, there's no barelylegalteens.meetup.com... yet...

  • as i write australia holds 3 places in th top 10 locales of sign-ups [meetup.com]

    pos 2 - brisbane :: 23 signups
    pos 5 - melbourne :: 22 signups
    pos 9 - sydney :: 18 signups

    these are th three top australian cities by population,but in th reverse order -

    sydney ~= 4M melbourne ~= 3.5M brisbane ~= 1.5M

    but mainly i'm surprised there seems to be so many slashdot readers in australia

    • As I just looked at it Melbourne is now on 27 members. Taking a closer look at it theres nothing to distinguish which city it is exactly, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia or Melbourne, Florida, USA. Maybe some of those people are not quite sure which side of the planet they will meetup on. ;-)

  • Redmond, Washington Meetup (Score:3, Funny)

    by Leeji ( 521631 ) <slashdot.leeholmes@com> on Monday June 17, 2002 @11:36PM (#3720207) Homepage

    I was going to make a slick joke about the mysterious lack of interest for a meetup in Redmond, Washington...

    BUT...

    I was wrong. [meetup.com]

  • spam alert (Score:5, Informative)

    by solferino ( 100959 ) <hazchem@@@gmail...com> on Monday June 17, 2002 @11:55PM (#3720255) Homepage

    warning : this is a corporate entity [meetup.com]sponsoring th organisation of this meetup

    knowing this, it might be useful to browse their privacy agreement [meetup.com] before giving them an email address that you like to keep spam free

    particularly this section of text :

    You also agree that we may use your information to contact you and deliver information to you that, in some cases, are targeted to your interests, such as topic group newsletters or meetup announcements (which also may include promotional communications), administrative notices, product or service offerings, and other communications relevant to your use of our service.

  • Stonecutters! (Score:4, Funny)

    by shogun ( 657 ) on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @12:10AM (#3720303)
    We should hold an ole fashioned stonecutters conventions. We all just wear our Slashdot User Numbers and the lower numbers get to order all the newbies around. While quaffing beer and signing bawdy songs. ;-)
  • my Friends and Fans have convenient little blue and green lights on their heads?
  • Anyone that doesn't think that this is a terrifying idea is not nearly nerdy nor geekish enough to be worth meeting.

    No comforting hard drive and power supply noises ...real people in real life, having to talk to them without the aid of a keyboard ...what if I don't know what to say ...what if they don't like me ...aaaaaaAAAAAaaaarrrrGGgggghhhhhhHHhhhhhhhhh!! !!!!!

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