Inside the Cult of TiVo 192
StudMuffin writes: "A group of TiVo enthusiasts from over at the TiVo Community Forum recently got together. About 100 people showed up to roast weenies and swap TiVo hacks and screen names. This is just plain cool, if you ask me. TiVo rocks. Of interest, however, was the representation of the TiVo company and the fact that they didn't fight to stop hacking their product. Does this relationship between hi-tech companies and hackers act as a model of how this relationship can work? TiVo even seems tolerant of really hardcore hacks as discussed on /. in the past."
TiVo won't stop hacking . . . (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:TiVo won't stop hacking . . . (Score:3, Informative)
Other than those examples though, Tivo has been extremely tolerant of hacks.
Re:TiVo won't stop hacking . . . (Score:4, Informative)
Re:TiVo won't stop hacking . . . (Score:1)
Re:TiVo won't stop hacking . . . (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd be a lot more impressed in TiVo accepted listings hacks and such and simply tried to compete on ease of use and features.
I don't think they should have any right to dictate what people do with their product, even if they don't like it.
They also burned a few bridges by lying about the ability to use a TiVo (the old ones claimed this on the box) without the service. They forced an upgrade on everyone and it basically made the boxes without service unusable. Rather than rolling out an immediate fix for their "mistake" they promised to roll it into the next release, a few months away. Their "helpful net representative" then flamed a few people for being useless deadbeats for being unwilling to pay a measly $10 (what are you, on welfare?!?) when they were unhappy at his suggested fix - buy service.
(I'm quite well off, with two incomes and no kids, and I spend a lot on tech, but I wouldn't want to be trapped into anything that I have to pay a monthly fee for if I could avoid it. I don't consider myself cheap, I just don't want to be over a barrel when the only provider of a service decides to suddenly jack up the price.)
They show some enlightened self interest, but no real care for the customers. (Not much different than many other companies.)
Honey is better than vinegar (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Honey is better than vinegar (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Honey is better than vinegar (Score:2)
Legislation to ensure their profits from the airwaves goes against everything the FCC stands for.
Re:Honey is better than vinegar (Score:2)
Not so much stealing as illegal distribution. You don't have the rights to redistribute a television show. Just like you don't have the rights to record songs of the radio and redistribute them.
But if asked, just tell them you're making offsite backups of your important data.
A Fine Balance (Score:2)
It's a fine balance.
I know that TiVO was more or less invented by hackers that can sympathize with people wanting to fiddle with hardware to do more than what could be convenient marketed for $x99.99 at Best Buy.
I've heard that some of them hang on different boards, dispelling rumours, clarifying what are stupid ways to backup your TiVo, etc.
Meanwhile, I know that some in the hacker community (Andrew Tridgell?) deliberately withdrew an early version of code he had that could crack the video streaming format filesystem on the TiVo's. I think that such decoding of video, especially combined with Ethernet access to the device, would have caused the Powers That Be to get riled up in a hurry (if TiVo hackers started to trade TV and movies the same way that Napster users were trading songs).
I've got two TiVo's and I upgraded them to use larger 100 GB IDE drives. It's great.
Ethernet (Score:1)
Ethernet (Score:1)
>the device, would have caused the
>Powers That Be to get riled up in a hurry
Like this [tivocommunity.com]?
Wonderful Tool (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Wonderful Tool (Score:1)
Linux tool: clunky haX0r3d interface, driver bullshit, noisy, honkin, ground-loop havin beige box.
I'll keep the TiVo, thanks.
Re:Wonderful Tool (Score:1)
Re:Wonderful Tool (Score:2, Informative)
I disagree. The "lifetime fee" is the lifetime of the unit. I purchased one of the first units with the "lifetime subscription". I recently went to order a new box because I got sick of reinstalling TiVOnet after every upgrade (fixed in 3.0 finally). I was told I would have to pay another "lifetime" fee, so I would have enough TiVO for two lifetimes appearantly.
I'm not saying this is unfair, but I think the company should better clarify "lifetime" to people buying the machines.
Re:Wonderful Tool (Score:2)
How do you explain this Linux counter entry [li.org], then?
It has been tested.. (Score:3, Funny)
"The installation is not that hard, and it has been wife tested..."
Re:It has been tested.. (Score:3, Interesting)
That just doesn't happen. I'm always hauling home electronics that drive her nuts...
"Look honey! It's called X-10 and I can turn any light in the house on and off with this remote... What? Well, sure, replacing all those switches in the house did cost a little, but look - a remote! No, you can't just switch it off, the remote won't work anymore... Now, hon, put down the gun..."
She loved the Tivo however. So did I. So it had to go...
Re:It has been tested.. (Score:2, Funny)
Tivo has been extremely generous... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not that the people who hack (finally, proper usage of the word) their Tivo to get more space are competing with any upgrade plan of Tivo's, because they don't have one. But what happens frequently is this - when you're upgrading the disks, if you're smart, you make a backup. The upgrade then goes successfully, and you've swapped out 30 hours of space on a single drive, to say, 120 hours of space on two drives. Then a software upgrade comes along, of which Tivo has had several. Then one of your disks may fail, programs start skipping, or the Tivo starts freezing. So you go back to backup.
You have to download the software again.
I'm sure I'll get flamed to hell and back, but Tivo has a deal with UUnet (though they may have gone out of business, or bought?) to provide local POP's for Tivo's to dial into. Tivo then pays for the time you use. Program data is tiny. Software updates, (over mostly 33.6) is a long time, and costs them money. But to my experience, and yeah, this happened to me, they've been nothing but agreeable, and I had to download 2.5 actually 3 times - once for the actual upgrade, once for the situation above, and uh... the third time because I screwed up, I admit it. I even called tech support, because my machine didn't want to upgrade the third time, and they actually re-flagged me for download, and told me to get it right this time. =)
Upgrading costs them more than that.... (Score:1)
Not really... (Score:5, Interesting)
TiVo's revenue stream is from their *service* - I have a friend that works for them, and he basically says that their attitude is that it's anything goes for hackers, in fact they secretly cheer them on.
BUT, that's as long as the hackers don't go near their revenue stream. Try to screw with their channel guide service/etc., and they will most definately NOT be supporting it. (I think someone basically said that TiVo went to some lengths to shut down people who did such things.)
Hackers upgrading mean:
a) TiVo doesn't have to pay the small subsidy on new boxes.
b) If the hacker installs a network card, it means they stop using the TiVo dialup system for updates.
Re:Not really... (Score:2, Informative)
Neither Philips nor Sony ever manufactured TiVo boxes directly. All TiVos roll off a third-party OEM assembly line in Mexico. Philips-branded boxes are just the TiVo reference design, Sony specified some minor changes and a different (nicer in my opinion, but others disagree) remote control. TiVo even handles the technical support for Philips.
As for subsidies, TiVo did pay a subsidy with the Series 1 boxes (no longer manufactured), but does not do so with the Series 2 boxes being built now, which is a major step forward in their path to profitability.
Re:Not really... (Score:2)
Bah! I laugh at your puny Death-Rays!
My ships are equipped with Plasma Cannons, hitting all four shields!
-
Probably they love the network adapter upgrade... (Score:2)
TiVo Interested in MFS Tools 2.0 (Score:4, Informative)
Speaking of MFS Tools 2.0, you can do all sorts of nifty adds and expansions with it - including adding and expanding the A Drive on Series2 units.
More on MFS Tools 2.0 here [tivocommunity.com].
Re:TiVo Interested in MFS Tools 2.0 (Score:2, Informative)
They do oppose some hacks (Score:3, Informative)
They are miles above most companies, but they still are not 100% hacker friendly.
tk
Re:They do oppose some hacks (Score:1)
Re:They do oppose some hacks (Score:2)
So were the D-Tivo's, at one time. It got hacked anyway. Eventually, the Series 2 boxes will be hacked in the same way.
Re:They do oppose some hacks (Score:2)
This doesn't get enough attention. All the Tivo kool-aid drinkers praise the company for letting them hack at the boxes while the company turns around and tries to remove the ability to do so.
I have a series II and I've become really bummed about the inability to hack at the machine. It's a nice appliance but it was all the hacks that inspired me to buy it.
Vanguard
Tivo is not like other companies (Score:1)
Tivo, therefore, was founded by hackers, or at least hackers at heart. Of course they will be tolerant of their brethren. I doubt that companies not founded by hackers will ever be so forgiving.
Jon.
Re:Tivo is not like other companies (Score:2)
It's just a little bit of enlightened self interest - hacked have to buy a unit to fiddle with. But get anywhere near being self sufficient, or competing with them and the shit hits the fan.
Very much a model of how it should be done. (Score:4, Insightful)
If Dish Network spent money like this instead of on stings, lobbying and developing ecms don't you think they would have a better service to show for it. By that I mean from a consumer point of view and not an investors.
Re:Very much a model of how it should be done. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Very much a model of how it should be done. (Score:2)
Why pay them when you can get the hacks for free!
why pay? (Score:2)
Getting these people on the payroll will get talented people who are already "up to speed" working full time on the system instead of part time. Also, you'll be able to direct what they work on. Maybe Tivo would benefit from their next hack instead simply not being harmed by it.
I think its a great thing. (Score:1)
Though I think a couple of things have to be put into context here.
As far as Tivo is concerned, they're not losing out in any way. If someone goes out and buys a tivo with the intent of putting a 120gb drive in it, their stilling getting the inital payout of 300 bucks.
Plus I think by turning a blind eye, they've allowed a "cult of tivo" to grow by getting the reputation of building heavily modifyable units.
I just hope tivo doesn't forsake their userbase in the name of profits...
Re:I think its a great thing. (Score:2)
Those of us who've added Ethernet to our TiVos could even be said to have done them a little favor. A TiVo that pulls its data through its owner's cable-modem or DSL connection is a TiVo that isn't using a UUnet dialup. That has to have TiVo at least a little money, especially when upgrades get pushed out.
Now I just need to reinstall TivoWeb so that I can see what's saved on it again. 3.0's Ethernet support is slicker than all-get-out...as long as you have a DHCP server, it just works. If the upgrade hadn't killed telnet access to my TiVo, I wouldn't have had to open the box at all after the upgrade (other than to make a backup of the new software).
Hackers are salesman (Score:2, Insightful)
Let the hackers do what they want (and they can't really be stopped, can they), and more will buy the tivo and preach tivo-ism to the untechnical masses who will never hack to the full degree, most will give up after a month and just use it normally.
Sam
A Question to any TiVo users? (Score:1)
The problem is, she is the most technically illiterate person in the entire universe. Is TiVo a system only for hardcore electronics geeks and computer hackers? Or can the average Joe use it with no problems?
TIA....
Re:A Question to any TiVo users? (Score:1)
Re:A Question to any TiVo users? (Score:2)
Re:A Question to any TiVo users? (Score:1)
Re:A Question to any TiVo users? (Score:1)
Re:A Question to any TiVo users? (Score:2, Insightful)
That being said I hooked up the TiVo for her and gave her a quick tour of what the TiVo button does, how to play recorded shows and how to add Season Passes and left her to ask questions as she ran into problems. Ya know what? She DIDN'T! All I hear now is how happy she is that she can watch her Lifetime shows, network "chick" shows, and whatever else she wants and I don't have to answer questions like "will Providence fit on this VHS tape" ever again.
God Bless TiVo!!!
Just my $.02
Not just tolerant, but supportive... (Score:4, Informative)
Tivo uses PALM's model of hacking! (Score:1)
Tivo has said many times.... (Score:1)
And there is a rumor that a prominent hacker has figured out how to get around subscriptions, but he isn't say how.
TiVo likes (and needs) us! (Score:2)
TiVo knows that they have a killer app, but they also know that they are struggling. They need happy customers, but more than that, they need advocates for their products and their technology. That's us!
Personally, I love my TiVo the way that I used to love my Macs -- I have never seen an outpouring of love for an electronic device since I used to hang around with other rabid Apple Mac users. TiVo is a wonderful thing and I don't EVER want to go back to living without it.
Don't forget (Score:3, Insightful)
Consider for a moment the fact that hackers are almost always early adopters, who spread the gospel of technology to their less tech-literate friends. If you read Slashdot and/or hack Tivos, chances are you've got a couple of friends who think of you as their tech guru, and who come to you when they're deciding to purchase a computer, a new DVD player, or...oh, I don't know...a PVR unit.
The simple fact is that reaching out to hackers is simply Tivo's way of ensuring positive word-of-mouth from the people who are in the best position to dispense it. This is not a bad thing, but it's not particularly a great thing either - it's just smart business.
Tivo benefits (Score:2)
How did they get there? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Oh, c'mon. You know they did.
RageBoy would be proud (Score:1)
I love my Tivo but (Score:2)
Re:I love my Tivo but (Score:3, Insightful)
Besides, it uses a reserved portion of the disk so it's not like you're losing space for your recordings.
Personally, since I never look through the showcases and other cruft in the TiVo Central menu, I never even know what (or if) it recorded on its own.
Re:I love my Tivo but (Score:2)
Re:I love my Tivo but (Score:2)
If you had upsized your box, then the 1.3->2.0 upgrade did take a lot more reserve as a side effect of the way the reserve mechanism worked.
Re:I love my Tivo but (Score:2)
I read something a couple of days ago that describes how you can delete the recordings (which also gets rid of the starred item at the bottom of TiVo Central). With backdoors enabled, go into Now Showing and press Thumbs-Down Thumbs-Down Pause Instant-Replay. Scroll past the suggestion recordings and you should see a bunch of entries labeled "Teleworld" and/or "Teleworld Paid Programming." Delete those the same way you'd delete anything else. It doesn't keep them from being recorded, but it at least lets you delete them once they're on there. I deleted recordings that had been on my TiVo since November.
I want a Tivo here . . . (Score:3, Interesting)
Now that the technology has been debugged and the business case proved, why the hell can't we buy these things here?
Yes, I know Andrew Tridgell hacked one to make it work, but surely we don't have to go to that kind of effort to make it work . . .
Re:I want a Tivo here . . . (Score:1)
Judging from this story [slashdot.org], I suppose the have them in the UK.
Re:I want a Tivo here . . . (Score:3, Informative)
TiVo in Australia FAQ
Version 1.3
Q: Can I use TiVo in Australia?
A: Yes, you can - well, the series 1 standalone boxes anyway. With some work you can get quite close to the level of functionality of a subscribed US TiVo - live TV guide, control of your Foxtel satellite or Optus Vision set top box, and so on - plus all the standard "trick play" TiVo features - pause, fastforward, rewind and slow advance of live TV.
Q: Which TiVo should I buy?
A: You should get a standalone series 1 unit, and preferably a Phillips unit since the disk layout is easier to expand than the one in the Sonys. You can pick these up reconditioned for not much money (say USD140 plus shipping), or off eBay for slightly more. You're probably best off getting the smallest unit you can find (usually a 14 hour unit) and then upgrading it with a bigger drive yourself, which is an easy process and is explained in depth at Hinsdale's excellent FAQ. You should try to get a unit with the 1.3 software loaded, since it allows manual recording with minimal nagging and generally it is better understood than the later software versions (2.0.5, 2.5.1). I don't believe the UK (PAL) TiVo units are as good a deal as the US ones, particularly as an unsubscribed UK unit is essentially useless.
Q: How much is it going to cost me?
A: Well, it depends on what you buy. As mentioned above, you can sometimes get a reconditioned Phillips HDR-112 for about USD140, or more off eBay. Then there is ~USD24 shipping and handling they tack on automatically. Then using USPS to Australia for the TiVo unit itself (it weighs about 9kg) comes to USD95 at the moment and takes three to five days. So that's about USD260 just to get the unit to Australia. After that, if you want a new, bigger drive you can get a 40GB one for AUD150 (that's the best price I've seen in Sydney in May 2002).
Q: What happens if my TiVo goes wrong?
A: Upgrading the drive in your TiVo voids your warranty. If you have only done software modifications to your TiVo through the serial port you can probably send it back to the place you bought it from in the US, as long as it is still under warranty. Remember that shipping it to the US will probably cost you about USD100 each way - it might be more sensible to buy a new TiVo.
Q: What about the TiVo's power supply? Do I have to use a 110V transformer?
A: No. The TiVo device itself has an auto-switching power supply, so if you have an appropriate adapter you can plug it directly into an Australian 240V wall socket (the TiVo doesn't use the ground prong). For a slightly tidier solution you can easily replace the TiVo cord with an Australian version - you'll see the type of cord it uses, you can buy replacements at Dick Smith etc. Be prepared to force the replacement cord in a little, since the TiVo uses a slightly non-standard shape for the plug.
Q: The TiVo boxes are American, so they use NTSC. Can I view PAL programming on them?
A: Yes. You can use Tridge's Palkit to modify your TiVo to support PAL - it's a piece of software that you run from the rc.sysinit. You can get instructions on how to use it here, and the software itself for 1.3, 2.0.5 and 2.5.1 TiVos. The 2.0.5 and 2.5.1 software isn't done by Tridge, and it's NZ-centric - bear this in mind if you intend to replace the TiVo's tuner to pick up FTA signals in Australia.
Q: What's this about replacing the tuner? I thought you said the TiVo will understand PAL after you install the Palkit?
A: It does, but the tuner doesn't. This isn't a big problem if you don't intend to use the TiVo's tuner anyway. If you plug your TiVo into your settop box or your VCR via RCA cables and allow the settop box or VCR to perform the tuning function, you don't need to worry about replacing the TiVo's tuner.
If you only have FTA where you are and you plan to plug the antenna directly into the TiVo, then you will have to replace the TiVo's tuner with a PAL-compatible one. This is an involved process involving soldering and as such is beyond me - watch this space for some pictures in the not-too-distant future. Fellow Australian TiVo activist Aussie may be able to help with the tuner mod, PM Aussie or myself for Aussie's email address. Note that as far as I am aware no one has found a PAL-compatible tuner which also supports stereo from Australian FTA channels - only mono. This is because we use a strange sub-variant of PAL broadcast that most tuners don't understand fully.
Q: Can I just use the TiVo as a basic digital VCR?
A: Yes, you can modify it to accept PAL, and then there is a script to allow it to accept composite in. You can then schedule recordings manually. Note that you really are much better off with a 1.3 TiVo if this is your aim.
Q: What's the TiVo experience like?
A: The menus and so on are scrunched up somewhat on the screen, because they were designed for NTSC and are therefore 45 lines of resolution too small. This doesn't look bad.
Slightly more annoying is the "green bar" that shows progress through the recording. It is a bit more obtrusive than on US systems because it is about 1/5 of the way up the screen from the bottom, and it is inaccurate because it calculates time elapsed based on NTSC's 60 frames per second instead of the 50 you get with PAL. This makes it show your recording as being shorter than it really is. (This doesn't cause recordings to be cut off or anything, it just means that your progress through the show isn't accurately shown.)
Otherwise, using the TiVo is great! Pauses are clear, fast forwards are, well, fast; slow motions are everything the words "slow" and "motion" lead you to expect. There is about a second's delay when changing channels (the TiVo needs to tell the settop box to change channels, then it spools up a bit less than a second of the live broadcast to give itself time to encode and display the live TV), but for me this is more than made up for by the way that the TiVo tells you what is currently playing on the channel you are switching to.
Q: Can the TiVo control my cable/satellite box?
A: Depends. It will control the Optus Vision cable box (via the IR blaster included with the TiVo) and the Foxtel satellite box (via IR blaster too). I don't know about the Austar box. Note that you cannot (as yet) control the Foxtel cable box from the TiVo, despite some serious effort.
Q: Can I get Australian TV guide data into my TiVo?
A: Yes. First, you need to set up something called a "headend" on your TiVo that basically tells it what stations you receive, what they are called, and so on. In order to do this, you need Tridge's Guidekit, but Tridge is getting a bit uncomfortable about the number of Guidekits going out. If you PM me I will send you out a channel file which you can modify to suit your local situation. If you then send it back to me I will generate a headend for you and send you the scripts required to get it up and running.
In the longer term I intend to set up a web site with some prebuilt headends for various locations in Australia.
Once you have a headend set up, you can use a series of Perl scripts written by Dr. Warren Toomey to collect Australian TV guide data from www.sofcom.com.au/tv. PM me for the URL for Warren's web site. Visit Sofcom to see what channels they have schedules for.
For the avoidance of all doubt : Warren's software and Tridge's Guidekit are for TiVos in Australia only. Their respective software licences prohibit you from using their software in any country where TiVo's service is available. We want TiVo to survive, and we won't be part of any form of service theft.
Edits : 1. Some small changes, added in Aussie's mention of help for the tuner mod, and pointed out that the Foxtel cable box can't be controlled. 2. And spelling! Added the question about the TiVo experience. 3. Changed the details about the Guidekit.
Last edited by JamesW on 05-29-2002 at 02:31 PM
Consider a closed box.... (Score:2)
The Mac, albeit superior (or so Mac users tell me), was less open. It's market share is (in part) a result of that.
It's not just rabid slashdotters with bizarre cases, it's just being able to add hardware to do things you need.
Client side fundamentally flawed (Score:2, Interesting)
Doing PVR on the client side is a fundamentally flawed model. The server side model makes a lot more sense.
1) The economics of storing one copy of a programme on millions of client side devices compare very unfavourable to storing the content on even massively redundant servers.
2) Hard disks have a high MTBF when compared to existing media, VHS, DVD. Consumers will not accept the total loss of content with a HD failure. The economics of on-site mainternance require the simplest client possible.
3) A server side solution can 'record' essentially an all channels, the resource requirements are order N. A client side solution requires exponential amounts of hardware to allow all clients to record all channels, order N^N hardware.
4) The efficience of a server side solution means that more content can be recorded, even unselected historical choices.
Re:Client side fundamentally flawed (Score:2)
And what about pausing/rewinding live TV? There is no way that any existing, or forthcoming, CATV infrastructure can scale to support this to enough users to make it profitable.
There are many other flaws in your argument, but it doesn't even get off the ground to begin with, so I won't go into more depth...
Re:Client side fundamentally flawed (Score:2)
Current infastructure is perfectly capable of handling this. Lets look at the facts:
(These are rough numbers!) There are roughly 166 6Mhz Channels availible on a typical 1000Mhz system today. Minus 66 channels for the reverse and analog and you have 100 channels left. Digital Multiplexing allows you to get at least 8 channels on each of those 6Mhz channels. So now you have 800 channels to work with. Further divide that into the fact that the average Hybrid Fiber Coax Node feeds only 125 homes now. So from the Headend to 125 homes you have 800 channels. 800/125 = 6.4 channels per home. Do you watch more than 6 different channels at the same time in your house? Now yes its true that the equipment is not there yet to provide the video feed switching at the headend controlled by the digital box. But that is coming. The Infastructure thats being built today will handle the technology of tomorrow.
Re:Client side fundamentally flawed (Score:2)
A headend feeds thousands, not hundreds of homes.
A typical home has more than 1 TV, so yes, you would need/want at least 2 of these virtual channels per home.
Your argument assumes the entire (digital) system is setup for this dedicated PVR-in-the-sky system. How do you offer a good digital package to the users who are only willing to pay for a basic digital package, and/or still prefer a client-side PVR?
Or are you actually proposing that it's cost effective to put up this massive PVR backend in every HFC node?
Re:Client side fundamentally flawed (Score:2)
New systems are being built to the 1.2 GHz to 1.5GHz spec now... systems build in the last 3 to 4 years a capable of 1GHz, although the Amps and Taps may need to be updated from 850Mhz in some of the older of those systems.
A headend feeds thousands, not hundreds of homes
Yes Headends do feed thousands but you missed what I said. Each headend has hundreds of pieces of fiber leaving it. Each of those fibers runs to what is called a Node. Each of these nodes feeds 125 homes on average. Each piece of fiber can carry all the same channels or each can carry its own lineup seperate from every other fiber.
Your argument assumes the entire (digital) system is setup for this dedicated PVR-in-the-sky system.
No it does not. I simply countered the point that the infastructure could not handle the number of channels needed to support this service. The plant hanging on the pole now, if it was build in the last 4 years to current CableLab specs, will support these services. The hardware is not there yet to offer these types of service, but the cable plant can certainly handle it.
are you actually proposing that it's cost effective to put up this massive PVR backend in every HFC node?
A PVR is not needed for every node. One massive PVR recording every show on the air would not only support one cable system, but multiple cable systems. The need is a system to coordinate the delivery of the content to the client box and respond to the VCR like commands of the user. Systems like this exist for Video On Demand (VOD). Example Diva VOD, the problem is that Gemstar is now going to buy Diva and companies like it so that it can continue to control this type of technology from both the guide data stand point and the Intellectual Property stand point.
The model that will work in the future is one where the networks sell their programming to the cable operators directly. They make their money either through ad placement within there programs (ie. someone holding a Coke) or buy charging the cable company for the program. The Cable company then has a seperate ad system that they inturn sell time to the ad companies. So that if your watching last months episode of Smallville you are still seeing this months car ads. This system will also allow for narrowcasting of ads so that I don't see diaper and Preperation H ads.
The technology exist to fullfill the Qwest "We have every movie and tv show ever made" claim... but once again we are facing the Media Mogals inablity to change their business model. And as such the ablity to watch what you want whenever you want is far more a political issue than it will ever be a technical issue.
Re:Client side fundamentally flawed (Score:2)
The "massive PVR" you mention is really more applicable to the ability to control a real-time video stream. You would still need massive amounts of storage to allow for user archival of content.
Anyway... I agree with most of your thoughts about the actual content owners, and the problems therein. I don't believe that a PVR-in-the-cloud scales effectivly, or is cost effective enough, for deployment anytime in the next several years.
By keeping the equipment client-side, you are able to better fully utilize your existing infrastructure (no need to replace amps/taps, no need for a mega-current 1Ghz+ system), and you can bill only the consumers that actually want the service (ie: you don't have to spread the cost of a massive headend investment across the 60% of your subscriber base that isn't interested in the service yet). BTW, I belive your average node estimate is way low. ~500 homes is what I'm used to...
Anyway... thanks for making some good counter arguments...
Re:Client side fundamentally flawed (Score:2)
Did you consider that only one copy of any show needs stored for all users? a 1 Million dollar SANs storage solution would hold alot of episodes of Friends and is hardly a huge investment for companies that are spending over 30 million for system rebuilds.
Now I don't disagree that in the here and now client side has many advantages. But I really believe that a headend solution is the way of the future... Is it just me or does knowing that its possible to setup a system that would allow me to watch any show that has ever been on whenever I want it not the way tv should be. I guess having what me and my coworkers consider our personal Coax system might skew our vision of how the world should work a bit
Re:Client side fundamentally flawed (Score:2)
Enjoy!
xDSL not CATV (Score:2)
'Massive' no, DTV can be delivered in about 4.5Mbps using current MPEG technology, which is hardly massive, and can be delivered over xDSL to about 3.5KM.
'which doesn't exist' perhaps not widely, but we are starting to do this http://www.kitv.co.uk
You'd lose the ability for all your users to access the PVR features simultaneously.
This is only true assuming a cable infrastructure because of it limiting ring topology. xDSL uses a star network topology, and this restriction does not apply.
And what about pausing/rewinding live TV?
What about it ? Whilst we currently do not provide it *yet* because of development resources it is *absolutely* possible.
There is no way that any existing, or forthcoming, CATV infrastructure can scale to support this to enough users to make it profitable.
Wrong. We are starting to do this now, it is more scalable and cheaper (unit price) than the alternatives (Client side PVR) for the reasons stated in my original post.
There are many other flaws in your argument, but it doesn't even get off the ground to begin with, so I won't go into more depth...
Perhaps you should post them, and I'll shoot those down as well:)
Re:xDSL not CATV (Score:2)
HFC cable system is a star topology. So the restrictions do not apply to it either. Don't want to start a Cable vs. xDSL war. The same things are possible on both. The issue with all DSL type technologies is always the Unsheilded twisted pair. No shielding limits things because the signel to noise ratio is so much higher. This limits distance and bandwidth because more error correction it needed both in processing time to handle the extra error correction protocol needed as well as the larger number of errors cause by outside interference. Its still a very valid technology.
Re:xDSL not CATV (Score:2)
3.5KM is about 2.1 miles. That is too much of a distance limitation to allow for decent penetration to make this service more than niche offering.
Additionally, if you want to offer real PVR features to every consumer, you are going to have excessive storage requirements to allow for everyone to archive their content for whatever duration they desire.
The webpage you mention looks like a VOD product, delivered over a physical layer that is only appropriate to densly populated areas, which are are prevalent in Europe than in the US.
You really haven't managed to shoot anything down, you've managed to post your companies vision of a niche product.
big niche (Score:2)
That is the distance from the POP usually an exchange, the actual coverage is a trade secret but it is a *lot more* than a niche market. We can reach the rest though active street cabinet.
The storage requirements are *less* for a server side solution only one copy and reference count is needed even if million's of consumers record a program. On a client side PVR a million copies are stored it is massively less efficient.
Yes, the KIT service is much more than just PVR, DTV+EPG is the core, VOD, Internet Access and a range of localised Web-Services, Pizza Deliver, Local Government, Health Services are all included.
Re:xDSL not CATV (Score:2)
The only real diference between VOD and PVR is that PVR encodes a source in real time.
Bitrate (Score:2)
That is very low bit rate for real-time encoded video stream, what is the encoding standard (MPEG2) ? What is the quality like?
We use industrial strength encoders from Tandberg, pretty much the best money can buy and we achieve an acceptable quality of video at 3Mbps real-time and 1.5Mbps off-line encoding
TIVO must be pretty poor picture quality and generate a lot of artefacts at 1.5Mbps realtime.
Client Side not that bad (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Broadcast Transmission
Client PVRs rely on broadcast transmission to "download" shows. This means that hundreds of users can be recieving the same show on a local loop and it will cost no additional bandwidth. For server side PVRs to work, they would have to have enough bandwidth at each server to handle all attached users. This would be costly.
2) Infrastructure
To setup server side PVRs you would need to keep adding servers as your subscriber base increases. Not to mention that not every cable user has internet access on their line. This may cost even cost more than just buying a client side Tivo for each user. Tivo is losing money as is. There is no way they could have got the capital to support their user base if they had to maintain all the servers that would be required for server side PVRs.
3) Reliability
While you are right that hard drive failures would piss off consumers, hard drive failures are relatively rare. I suggest that server side PVRs would have even MORE problems than client side. Look at your average web site, which seems to crash everytime its linked to some certain web logs. And if server PVR crashes, then possibly hundreds of users would be pissed off at once, instead of just one.
Server side PVRs have many advantages in the long run, but the short run costs keep them prohibitive for the moment. A good solution may be to combine the advantages of client and server side PVRs. For instance keep the same Tivo functionality, but add the ability to (slowly) download a requested show from a server somewhere. You request it on Monday and get it Tuesday night or something. The new ReplayTV P2P show sharing might be a good model for this.
sigless
Re:Client Side not that bad (Score:2)
It is easier and therefore cheaper to maintain and enchance capacity on the server-side than on the client site, and it is not just the hardware cost, the engineers visit, travelling costs, no shows, it all adds up to increased cost base for client side PVR.
I'm not sure about what you mean with your comments on Internet access, we don't stream the content over the internet, we use a IP enabled private MAN, so our solution does not require Internet Access. However we offer a 256Kbps Internet Connection for £10 UK pounds (15USD/EURO)pcm, and it is the most profitable part of our service at about 80% gross profit.
The HD in PVR is used a lot more intensivly than one in a PC; continuously for the duration of use, the failure rate of HDs in PVR will be much higher than with PC's simply because they are used so much more intensely, coupled with the cost benefit of server-side mainternance, the economics clearly favour Server Side PVR.
We use a cluster of 40 nCube Video servers with RAID totaling ~640 disks. The prospect of all failing at once is quite literally astronomical. They serve a current customer base of 8000, so we need 10th of the disks that a client side PVR solution requires. We also have more coverage because we only need to store 1 copy of any content and as the customer base grows this advantage over client side PVR grows.
Re:Client Side not that bad (Score:2)
Interesting that you bring up Moore's law since it applies to transistor density not network bandwidth. Note that internet bandwidth has NOT increased at the same rate as processor speeds. Client side hardware will get cheaper far faster than network bandwidth. This seems to favor client side PVRs.
Whilst strictly speaking my point is a corollary of Moore's law, bandwidth does exhibit the predicted exponential growth. It is that exponential growth pattern that is important rather than the specific timeframe (indeed the time frame with regard to Moore's Law has varied between ~12 to ~24 months.). It also applies directly to the communication hardware (modems, DSLAMs, switches & etc) and servers. Furthermore since the hardware for a client side solution is adequate, increased performance on the client side is 'wasted', the result is the hardware cost is driven down and the human element of maintenance become an increasingly significant. Whilst on the server side the extra performance can be exploited incrementally and lower cost base increasingly favours the server-side solution.
Internet Access
While I am not disputing your particular business model, most people (in the US, much less the world) do not have access to high speed internet access (much less to a MAN). As such they will not be able to download good quality video files on demand, whereas at least half of the US is already recieving cable.
We (well our parent Telco) installed the backbone specifically for a meta-project, a Digital City Initiative (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid
3) Infrastructure (again)
I am very impressed that you can serve 8000 users with 40 servers. I doubt however this will scale linearly. How will you do with 800,000 (something like Tivos current subscriber base). What about 8,000,000? As the complexity of the system grows, so does it's cost and its chance for failure.
The nCube (www.nCube.com) video servers we use do scale in a linear manner. The platform is designed such that it offers a 'turn-key solution' that could be rolled out nationally in the UK on a city by city basis. It seems likely we will be licensing our technology in an International arena shortly.
Re:Client side fundamentally flawed (Score:2)
Fundamentally flawed? For a fundamentally flaws model, it works pretty darn well.
Instead of starting with "what could we have in a perfect world," start with "how can we make what we have better." People who try to do the perfect solution immediately tend to fail. Incremental solutions tend to work best.
The "perfect" solution you suggest have lots of issues that would take a great deal of time and money to sort out. To move video from the centralized server to me requires high speed bandwidth to every customer. Huge amounts of bandwidth. (About 600 kilobytes per second for Tivo's medium quality according to back of the envelope calculations.) While I look forward to cheap and plentiful bandwidth, it isn't here yet for most people. Also, when you have a centralized server serving shows on demand, it starts to look suspiciously like rebroadcasting. Again, a solvable problem, but it would take alot of work to work it out with television networks and Hollywood. And in that legal give and take, you're like to see things like "No program can be kept for more than 6 weeks," and "Programs can only be viewed 5 times per household."
If it helps, think of the Tivo as the stepping stone to a better designed future system. But I doubt it. We moved from mainframes to PCs as people desired more personal control and exclusive use even though it cost us efficiency in many cases. Tivo is similar, it may be inefficient, but it's mine.
Re:Client side fundamentally flawed (Score:2)
User interface issues with iControl also limit the number of shows that can be offered right now. Different UI's will, of course, have more or less flexibility in that regard.
BBQ in Chicago (Score:2, Informative)
TiVo-ites from the forums in the Chicago area (and beyond) are also planning to have TiVo BBQ this August.
Don't know yet how many TiVo employees are going to show up but if you read the forums and are in mid-america you should show up.
Information on the get together is at:
[tivocommunity.com]
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread
Missed the TiVo Gathering? (Score:3, Funny)
Any use of Tivo without programs database? (Score:2)
Just wondering...
Re:Any use of Tivo without programs database? (Score:2, Informative)
A Series 1 TiVo that came with version 1.3 or earlier of the TiVo software factory-installed (even if it upgraded to a later version) does not require a subscription - it can be used with manual programming if you don't mind a nag screen that comes up when you go to schedule a recording. Anything newer won't record without a subscription.
Re:Any use of Tivo without programs database? (Score:2)
Replay tv weenie roast? (Score:2, Funny)
The poor mascot (Score:2, Funny)
... and the mob of screwdriver-wielding geeks that nearly killed him trying to install a bigger HD.
Customizable Consumer Electronics (Score:2, Interesting)
TiVo could go a step further, by giving users a small how-to guide for basic TiVo hacking. Things like adding Hard Drive's, enabling hidden features, etc. It would be a new (or revistalized?) idea: Customizable Consumer Electronics. It's like you're building a component Stereo system, except the components are all in one box.
Tivo, Privacy, and ReplayTV (Score:2, Informative)
1) Tivo forcing users to record programs [slashdot.org]
2) The Privacy Foundation's report on Tivo [privacyfoundation.org] points out that
a) Your Tivo serial number is sent multiple times during each phone call and there is no way to guarantee data is truly treated anonymously except to trust Tivo.
b) Tivo's definition of "personal" information is significantly more narrow than the average privacy policy reader would assume, and so guarantees about your "personal" information are hollow.
c) Tivo suggests that the viewing information is never transmitted. In fact, all of the constituent pieces of the personal viewing information are transmitted to TiVo's computers.
d) TiVo should disclose that their customer-identified diagnostic log can indicate when the TiVo remote control was in use.
3) Anyone heard of Replay TV here? They are actively fighting [eff.org] Hollywood to defend your rights. When a judge tried to force them to spy on users, they fought it [slashdot.org]. When Hollywood said users shouldn't be allowed to send programs to other devices, they fought it. When the networks said your skipping commercials was "theft", they fought it. I think a company that does all this for the privacy and rights of its users deserves our support (or at least a MENTION on this page).
Brian
Support EFF! http://www.eff.org
They're defending YOUR rights online!
Re:Tivo, Privacy, and ReplayTV (Score:5, Informative)
2) The Privacy Foundation's report on Tivo points out that
a) Your Tivo serial number is sent multiple times during each phone call and there is no way to guarantee data is truly treated anonymously except to trust Tivo.
Except by looking at the method which it uses to send the data and having intelligence enough to figure out that it's sending the serial-containing logs to a different place at a different time, and leaving no way to correlate the serial with the anonymous part of the data. Someone needs to tell "the privacy foundation" that you don't need an expensive box with modem trickery to spy on a connection, you just need a knowledge of how the system works. They've gone out of their way to stick to *exactly* what their privacy policy says, and all you need is a knowledge of Linux and TCL to see that.
b) Tivo's definition of "personal" information is significantly more narrow than the average privacy policy reader would assume, and so guarantees about your "personal" information are hollow.
Personal info, as defined by Tivo, is basically anything that can be tied back to you or to your box individually. Seems airtight to me.
c) Tivo suggests that the viewing information is never transmitted. In fact, all of the constituent pieces of the personal viewing information are transmitted to TiVo's computers.
Huh? Tivo explictly states that anonymous viewing information is transmitted. Read it [tivo.com], specifically section 2.3:
d) TiVo should disclose that their customer-identified diagnostic log can indicate when the TiVo remote control was in use.
The customer identified diagnostic log cannot indicate when the remote control was in use. The Privacy Foundation misinterpreted the meaning of several of the diagnotic messages because they simply looked at the log and not what the hell the unit was actually doing.
I agree, it's important to fight for your privacy. But it's equally important to pick your battles and not fight against the companies that explicit state what data they collect, how they use it, and then stick by that. Tivo has been incredible in that respect. They do it right, and if every company was as forthcoming as they have been about this sort of thing, then there'd be a lot less privacy battles to fight.
3) Anyone heard of Replay TV here?
Yeah, and we all hope they win. But frankly, they have an inferior product. They added nice whizbang features like ethernet (although Tivo Series 2 will have ethernet support too), show sharing, auto commercial skip, and a (somewhat lame) web control, which we geeks love, but they failed to fix the most important problems like: more intelligent scheduling, priorities that make sense, ability to see what the unit will do in the future and adjust it, etc... All the things that make a PVR better than a VCR. Adding neat features is easy. Making a unit work exceedingly well at one thing is more difficult. Tivo works better than Replay for the purpose of timeshifting programs. Replay works better than Tivo for the purpose of geek type stuff. And Replay, while they fight the good fight, are really pushing themselves into an uncertain future by doing so. Ever thought about "what if they lose", which they most probably will?
Lego is similar (Score:2)
fuck you, Tivo (Score:2)
Anyway, so it's $130 to basically get a new Tivo if I ship them mine, not a horrible price compared to new Tivo prices. But he didn't really say what was wrong; I'm curious if I can just fix it myself by replacing some hardware. Might call back.
The thing that pissed me off the most is that he asked if I wanted to fork over the cash, I said I needed to think about it. Did he have a number I could call back? Some priority thing so I don't have to sit on hold 40 minutes? Nope. Fuck you, sit on hold.
Not as egregious as, say, getting the cops on you for having cable modem without cable service, but I think waiting on hold for 40 minutes is fucking ridiculous. And having to do it twice for one issue-- well, I'm looking at competitors.
Nice, but new models only appealing for new users (Score:2)
No longer can be used as a manual PVR? (Score:3, Informative)
However...
A friend of mine, after hearing a bunch of us talk about nice the Tivo was, bought one of the new "Series 2" machines. He wasn't sure he was going to keep it, so he didn't subscribe. After the "trial period" ran out, he can no longer record manually (time and channel, without the guide).
It appears from various [google.com] comments [tivocommunity.com] around the 'net that the "Series 2" machines cannot be used as manual recorders. Now, using a Tivo as a manual PVR kinda defeats the purpose of the thing (IMHO), but the older units can be used manually (i.e., without a subscription) and people may think this is still possible with the newer units.
Yes, I understand that their business model is to get the money from the subscriptions. I'm just pointing out something I had not heard about (that manual recording without a subscription is no longer possible). I was a bit surprised to learn this, in fact.
Milalwi
Stealing? Oh, really? (Score:2, Insightful)
So you're implying I steal television airtime if I go take a bathroom constitutional or head off to the fridge for a snack? I hardly think it's stealing, just a convenience that TiVo users enjoy by skipping ads.
And what about channel surfing?
Also consider that there are more ads on TV now than ever before, and a lot of ads on cable channels that I've already paid for every month!
I pay for my TV in other ways. I don't think is "stealing".
Re:Why? (Score:1)
Working later means I get paid more and can afford more silly gadgets like this one. Or I can earn an extra $300 to pay for a gym membership/ bicycle!
Re:TiVo linux kernel source? (Score:2, Interesting)