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Television Media

Time Warner to Allow Digital Recording 181

Posted by timothy from the but-that's-stealing dept.
platypussrex writes "CNN is reporting that some Time Warner cable customers will be offered the ability to use digital recording. The article says they will not have a commercial zapping feature but even the use of digital recording seems a major turn-around from what the entertainment industry has been saying so far. I wonder if this will help TiVo and ReplyTV gain 'legitimacy'?"
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Time Warner to Allow Digital Recording More

Time Warner to Allow Digital Recording

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  • Good (Score:3, Interesting)

    by NetJunkie ( 56134 ) <jason.nashNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday July 18, 2002 @03:01PM (#3910755)
    I hope they do a box with DVR and HD. I love my High Def cable box, much easier than an antenna, but I miss not being able to use my TiVo with it.

    I can't build a box either. No one makes an HDTV PC card with a component INPUT, they are all Antenna input.

    • Re:Good (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Ioldanach ( 88584 )
      No one makes an HDTV PC card with a component INPUT, they are all Antenna input.

      What about S-Video input? That's at least better than Antenna, if not quite as good as Component.

      • Re:Good (Score:5, Informative)

        by foobar104 ( 206452 ) on Thursday July 18, 2002 @03:09PM (#3910850) Journal
        There's no such thing as HD S-video. Your choices in HD video are component analog (YUV or RGB), DVI, or FireWire. Digital is superior, of course, but with consumer equipment it's really, really hard to tell the difference between digital and YUV component analog.

        S-video, or YC, isn't an option for HDTV signals.

      • Bad Moderator... (Score:3, Informative)

        by NetJunkie ( 56134 )
        No, S-vid doesn't do HD. When I say antenna I mean HD over the air, not normal crappy antenna signal. Most people get HD content via antenna, but Time Warner carries it in some markets via digital cable. It's much easier than dealing with the antenna and I don't need to buy the $500 receiver box to sit between the TV and antenna.
    • I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I saw a show on Tech TV that was going to put together a high-def DVR with a new video card they were reviewing. I only caught it for a couple of seconds though.
      • You can build one, but not using component input. They take Antenna inputs and do the channel switching on the card.

        My cable box does the channel switching and just outputs component to my TV.
    • I'm sure this has been covered before, but what is the current state-of-the-art in building your own DVR box?

      Specifically, if I want to go out and build myself a (pref. Linux-based) computer for DVR, what hardware/sofware solutions are out there that work now?

      Record to hard drive, burn-to-VCD, burn-to-DivX;), burn-to-DVD, etc...

    • Re:Good (Score:3, Informative)

      by sysadmn ( 29788 )
      They do. Scientific-Atlanta has the Explorer 8000 here [scientificatlanta.com]. From the page:
      Pause, rewind, fast forward, record, and re-play live analog and digital TV programs - without an additional box in your entertainment center. Scientific-Atlanta has introduced our most powerful member of the Explorer® set-top family, the Explorer 8000 model, which will deliver a wide range of multiple interactive TV applications through a single set-top. Using a built-in 40 gigabyte hard drive, this innovative set-top will also enable the simultaneous viewing and recording of two channels of programming and as well as support HDTV.
      It also mentions a digital film library, telephony, and web access.
      • The link you gave requires a login. Try this instead:

        http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/prod_su b_PVR.htm [scientificatlanta.com]

      • Re:Good (Score:3, Interesting)

        by foobar104 ( 206452 )
        Now this is fascinating.
        The Scientific-Atlanta Explorer 8000 home entertainment server can help you
        fight DBS, reduce churn, and generate revenues.
        (That's from the product page, not the one you gave, but the non-login one posted in response to your message. Emphasis mine.)

        I guess that really sums it up: cable providers want to keep subscribers, and direct-broadcast satellite providers like DirecTV and Dish Network are their competition. I wonder how much, if at all, DirecTiVo (the combination DirecTV receiver and TiVo unit) has affected DBS subscription rates. Are cable companies losing market share to DirecTV thanks to DirecTiVo?
  • TW is thoughtfully leaving out one feature: Ad skipping.
  • To let me continue the enjoyment of my fair-use rights. How nice of them to see the huge public outcry that would have happened if they tried to Macrovision everything.

    As Robin Williams said Sunday night "You've got mail, hope you don't have stock."

    B
  • Instead of fighting the inevidable, release your own consumer friendly product that does NOT affect your revenue in a negative way. Then, there'd be little room (for the general public, anyway) for products that do offend your profits.

    • I think they were basically forced to compete with this feature because most of the satellite companies already offer DVR. It may be that the broadcasting and cinema groups are completely unaware of Time Warner Cable offering this. Kind of how Sony music seems to be trying to kill off the MP3 format and Sony Electronics keeps cranking out devices that can play MP3s. I think it's more likely that this is another case of a large company with a left hand that has no idea what the right hand is doing. Even though they do not offer a commercial skipping feature in their device they have to be aware that customers are going to be using it for such.

  • Hey finally i have the right to do what i want with something i payed for. The freedom i have been given by ATT is just amazing. I am so glad they understand what it is to be an amaerican. Seriously i am glad ATT is "Letting" costumers do this, but they should never have had the right to complain about it in the first place. If i record a show and give it to my friend guess what i am a nice guy for taping there show. Down with ATT.

  • AOL owns ~10% of Tivo (Score:3, Interesting)

    by uberstool ( 470348 ) on Thursday July 18, 2002 @03:06PM (#3910817)
    Subject is the message

  • I have wondered when the day will come that your television will just be another Internet appliance. Same with your radio -- crystal clear over tcp/ip instead of all the interference of FM or AM. The ability then to record, redistribute, share, etc., would be great. I think they have seen the pilot with products like Tivo. People that understand it love it. Those that don't, when shown the power, love it too.

  • Advertisers Dream (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Joe U ( 443617 ) on Thursday July 18, 2002 @03:07PM (#3910826) Homepage Journal
    How long before this becomes a Time Warner targed advertising tool?

    The box can easily compile a list of what you're watching, and then pop up advertising based on your viewing demographic.

    Soon you'll see targed ads in your schedule gude, on the music channels. And the ultimate: popping up while you're playing back your program.
    • More likely will be a 60 second advertisement before your recorded content will start to play back. Think trailers on VHS/DVD.

    • Re:Advertisers Dream (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Maeryk ( 87865 )
      Soon you'll see targed ads in your schedule gude, on the music channels. And the ultimate: popping up while you're playing back your program.

      I dont know about anyone else, but with my Tivo and my DirecTV subscription, I already get this. The "digital music channels" (those above 800) already have ads.. for Target, for specific albums you are listening to, and for albums you "might like".. which, granted, I would rather watch than ads for "pantyliners with wings".

      We also get pop-ups in the "tivo" section of like, this Counting Crows interview they are busy pushing now, in hopes that I will pay a bunch of money for a crappy PPV.

      If Advertisers want to get my money, they should make ads that catch my attention, and make sure they dont play them over and over and over and over. I will never play GTA simply BECAUSE I have to sit through that stupid opera ad about 47 times to watch a single episode of WWE RAW. Its the same thing with top-40 radio. I hate the songs because i hear them twice an hour.

      (And our local 80s station is doing exactly the same thing with 80s music now.. its an "all 80s" station, but its the same 12 songs, hour after hour.. they are on a pretty heavy madonna kick right now).

      Basic upshot: If you want to advertise to me, do it in a way that I will watch. Otherwise, dont scream when I dont buy your stuff. Oh, and you may want to look at your corporate politics as well.. its more than likely that the reason you arent selling to a significant demographic (nerds) is cause your company does something we dont like, and we boycott.

      Maeryk
    • Privacy issues aside, why wouldn't you like targeted advertising? Instead of watching commercials for tampons, denture cream you will get the Dell adds and Cable Internet ads. We'll never get advertising-free TV, but at least it's advertising for products that you *may* actually buy!
      • Because knowing advertisers, we would get about 15 to 20 "Dude you're getting a Dell" commercials every hour.

        And when you are totally fed up with that, wait for the ads to show up on your premimum channels. HBO, Showtime, etc...

      • Well it puts people in a well defined box so you can't discover new things.

        I'm not saying I wouldn't prefer targeted advertisting, but I can see a time in the future when everything is so customized that people don't learn about new things outside their "demographic".
    • How long before this becomes a Time Warner targed advertising tool?

      Targeted advertising is creepy. I made the mistake of allowing cookies to Amazon.com, and, now, their web pages greet me by name and there are useless lists of things I'm supposed to be interested in.

      The thing that bothers me the most is that they are assuming I have money to burn. "Here, would you like to buy this, or this, or this? No? Oh, how about this, or this, or this? No? What about..." This frustrates me, because they really think I will make an impulsive decision and just buy everything at a whim. Is this really how most people behave?

      I wonder if retailing sites will ever have a checkbox called "Yes, I'm a stupid impulsive consumer." At least, then, those who really want it can have it, and I can just cruise in and buy the one book I want in ten fewer mouse clicks.
      • they really think I will make an impulsive decision and just buy everything at a whim. Is this really how most people behave?

        Based on the statistics I've seen of average consumer credit card debt, I'd have to say "yes".

      • The thing that bothers me the most is that they are assuming I have money to burn. "Here, would you like to buy this, or this, or this? No? Oh, how about this, or this, or this? No? What about..." This frustrates me, because they really think I will make an impulsive decision and just buy everything at a whim. Is this really how most people behave?

        THEY'RE A STORE!

        Sheesh. It's not like they're kicking your out for loitering--and it's not like you can really browse there, or get some coffee. Amazon.com (rightly) assumes that if you're going to their store, you're going to buy something.

        • Amazon.com (rightly) assumes that if you're going to their store, you're going to buy something.

          But they wrongly assume that I somehow haven't already figured out what I want and don't know exactly how much I can spend. When I go into a store, I have a purpose--often a specific item--in mind. If I don't find it, I leave. Salespeople, targeted advertisements, and customized product lists serve only to annoy and make my shopping less productive.

          I guess I'm part of a small minority of shoppers who actually research big purchases, think critically about not-so-big purchases, and view most advertising as obtrusive and unneccessary noise.
    • How many of you would put up with targetted commercials if you never saw the same one twice? I know I sure would. But I'm sick. If spam mail didnt get mangled in PINE and looked like it does on GUI clients, I'd prolly like that too. They have institutions for people like me. Anyways. Really, how many of you would put up with ads on TV if it wasnt the same Goldbond commercial every 12 minutes? (Not that I'm suggested Goldbond is what my targetted ad of example would be)

  • Why not Tivo (Score:2, Insightful)

    by xbrownx ( 459399 )
    Why get this when you can just buy a Tivo system? Probably less cost in the long run, and a bigger HD...

    • Re:Why not Tivo (Score:5, Informative)

      by JWhitlock ( 201845 ) <John-Whitlock&ieee,org> on Thursday July 18, 2002 @03:40PM (#3911141)
      Why get this when you can just buy a Tivo system? Probably less cost in the long run, and a bigger HD...

      Well, for one thing, you get digital cable without the IR repeater that TiVo has to use. For my setup (digital cable + TiVo), the video signal goes through the digital decoder and then into TiVo. To change channels, the TiVo has little LEDs that you place over the remote sensor for the digital cable box. TiVo emulates the digital cable remote to change the channels, and is successful about 95% of the time. The rest of the time, TiVo almost changes the channel, and you get the wrong thing.

      There are ways to lessen the effect, such as building an IR cage around the IR repeater/IR receiver portion. There are other options, such as going satelite (TiVo's ReplayTV box is a satelite decoder as well, so it has no problem changing channels) or basic cable (TiVo works fine as a basic cable box). But, since digital cable decoding is non-standard, the only way is to get the cable provider to offer a PVR box.

      They probably won't go the TiVo route - TiVo would rather see a standard digital cable descrambler, usable in many cable systems, then one for each market. If a cable provider wants to make one for each market, TiVo will do it, but expect the cable provider to pay for the work needed to make the box. SonicBlue, who is behind the Time Warner box, is more willing to burnn their own money and work with the cable providers.

      The real solution is a single, HD-enable digital cable standard, so that any manufacturer can make a box that works on all the networks, including TiVo. I imagine the cable providers get a bit of revenue renting out the digital cable decoders, so I don't expect this any time soon. Also, I'll have to see the pricing details to determine whether Time Warner is serious about this as a mainstream product, or only selling it to the rich folks that might have gone the SonicBlue route anyway.

      • Re:Why not Tivo (Score:3, Informative)

        by skimmer ( 48913 )
        You might want to check to see if your data cable is working and supported now. A nice surprise with version 3.0 was that I now have the serial cable going directly into my digital cable box -- no more ir mistakes! And it's faster too.

      • TiVo's ReplayTV box is a satelite decoder ...

        ReplayTV is a different product/company from TiVo. (and at the risk of starting a flame war, a better one :-)
    • ... I'll tell you why:

      Scientific Atlanta, the company that will be making these PVR's for TW, also makes some of TW's digital cable boxes, including the version I have which decodes the HDTV signals broadcast over their cable network.

      I own a TiVo and love it!

      However, the thing I am dying for is an integrated TimeWarner digital cable box with TiVo like abilities. Support for HDTV would definitely be a plus, but just having complete integration between my TW digital box and my PVR would be heaven, and the Scientific Atlanta box could make this a reality!

      - The digital channels would not ever need to be decoded to analog until it's sent to my TV -- leading to better quality recordings. Right now, anything off a digital channel is being decoded, sent to TiVo in analog format S-Video, then re-encoded in MPEG format by TiVo, and later decoded for my TV.

      - I would not need two digital boxes (one for TiVo, one to watch live TV).

      - The current TimeWarner digital TV navigation blows away TiVo's live TV navigation system. I'd love to be able to use it again with my PVR!

      - They could include two decoders, like in the DirecTiVo box, so that I can record two programs at once... after all, most channels are already encoded digitally, the hard work is done.

      - They could integrate HDTV! (A killer app, AFAIAC.)

      Since AOL owns a percentage of TiVo, I won't be surprised if Scientific Atlanta licenses TiVo technology for the box (one can hope!).
    • Who says it isn't going to be?

      TIVO and AOL are working together [sec.gov].
  • Bell ExpressVU satellite in Canada has had the 5100 model receiver out for about a year now I think. It has a build in PVR as well. Currently the only one available in Canada (the last I looked anyways). Everythings proprietary, so no hacking fun, but at least I get to have a digital recorder to playback TV at the same quality as live.

  • Hmmm. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by YanceyAI ( 192279 ) <IAMYANCEY@yahoo.com> on Thursday July 18, 2002 @03:08PM (#3910846)
    I wonder if this announcement will offset the news [marketwatch.com] that they've become one of the latest corporations to come under review for shady accounting practices.

  • Broadcast flag (Score:2, Insightful)

    by lunenburg ( 37393 )
    And when AOL/TW buys the Broadcast Flag from Congress, you may still be able to use their set-top box to record one or two shows a year! Groovy! ;-)

  • I know why they're doing it... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Kaz Riprock ( 590115 ) on Thursday July 18, 2002 @03:10PM (#3910860)
    Imagine you just sat down to find your favorite program.
    Now imagine you power up your digi-TV-recorder from Time Warner.
    You slowly hit the "Guide" button to scan for your favorite program.
    All of the sudden, it's there, right in front of you, an AD brought to you by Time Warner!! Sitting right there, next to your channel choices! As you scroll through the list, you can't help but want to run out and buy a Big Mac....large fries.....super-size coke.... They aren't doing this to compete with satellite...they're doing it to integrate advertising into the overlay screens.
    • Gee.. maybe THAT is why I have had so many dying urges to go to Sourceforge lately..maybe its coming from my DVR! :P

      Maeryk
    • Don't sound so shocked; this is already happening, at least in AT&T Broadband country. I recently moved into a new house, so I thought I'd give AT&T's digital cable a try. Boy, was that a mistake.

      The on-screen guide, which is supplied to AT&T by TV Guide, has ads on it. Hit the guide button, and there are two or three ads taking up half your screen. Hit the channel-up button and in addition to the channel number and program name, BAM, there's a square ad about 200 pixels on a side trying to sell me on RCA or some damn thing.

      I was pretty disgusted. I mean, I don't use any sort of channel guide except my TiVo's, but these on-screen ads are so obtrusive that they really got on my nerves. They lingered on the screen for about twenty seconds, far longer than ordinary on-screen guide displays have any right to. Drove me crazy.

      So I fired AT&T and signed up with DirecTV instead. No ads, and better PQ (picture quality) to boot.
  • Well, in a limited fashion. TWC is rolling out iControl here in Central Florida. It's basically a Video-On-Demand service that allows for pause, rewind, and many other TiVo-like features, but apparently only for Pay-Per-View movies.

    I've also noticed an HBO On Demand channel appear in my lineup in the past two weeks, with a "Coming Soon" label on it. The on-screen display for this channel indicates it'll be a repository where HBO subscribers can watch HBO-specific programming On Demand. I'll be interested to see if there's an added premium for this, and how far back they carry the catalog (It would be nice to catch up with the Sopranos or watch the full run of From the Earth to the Moon without having to buy the DVD sets).

    At any rate, I had a tech come out to replace my burnt-out cable modem a few weeks ago (plenty of storms here on the Southeast Coast - hence my nickname), and he replaced my cable box with a new model by Scientific Atlanta. He said I'd need this when the iControl went live in the area. I haven't yet, but I guess when I get home I'll bust out the screwdriver and have a look-see what's inside the thing...
    • The entire VoD system that TW is building out requires the 'Digital Cable' service they sell.

      The way the VoD controls work (They call it iControl) is that when you hit your 'pause' key, the receiver sends that command back upstream to the VoD server which pauses it there. There is a small delay (200ms or less), but it works.

      The switchout of the cable box was probibly to facilitate the send/receive of the commands from your unit/remote.

      iControl has been available here in the Albany, NY market for some time now... If only the pricing wan't a ripoff.
    • I've tried iControl twice on the free 'preview' programming, but each time the digital cable box crashed (brzaa) just after I selectted 'confirm order'.

      I wouldn't want to get ripped off by that happening when I'm ordering something that results in a charge on the bill, so I'm not using it. It's too expensive anyway.
    • I have Time Warner, iControl, and HBO On Demand in Austin, TX. The software is really slow and a bit flaky. (When I stop a movie and then resume it, many times it resumes playing from the beginning of the movie, not from where I stopped it.)

      But I'm guessing this has nothing to do with the PVR that TW is planning to roll out.
  • I wonder if this will help TiVo and ReplyTV gain 'legitimacy'?"

    I wonder if it will help put them out of 'business'.
  • my question is , in tv today, and any other era of tv, i dont really see what is worth being taped, is there really anything worthwhile on tv nowadays that makes you a smarter, more intelectual, or promotes quality character traits? I dont know about you but the 3/4 of americans tuning in to watch "the real world" doesn't seem to be improving them in any way, but i'm sure that they would program their tv's to record it if they couldn't be home to watch it. Maybe its just me but i think that some technologies are only going to cause more kids to grow up and be worthless tv slobs. Go read a book, make new friends, try something you wouldn't normally try. Its sad that many people spend half their lives watching someone else's idea of how the world is portrayed, without ever actually interacting in it themselves. Those people are only gonna grow up to gawk about how hot that chick on tv was or if they watched the new Cribs episode. Personally i dont like carrying on conversations with people about tv personalities and their houses.

  • Let's think about this (Score:2, Insightful)

    by xms194 ( 543232 )
    The nation's second-largest cable company said Wednesday it will offer the cable set-top boxes with digital video recorders by the end of summer in some markets.

    Call me paranoid, but if Time Warner begins taking over a significant portion of the PVR market, then wouldn't they have a means to implement whatever copy "protection" schemes they want? If they're manufacturing the hardware, they could very easily make it implement the whole "broadcast flag" idea, assuming they release a similar product for digital television. Just seems to me like this is an attempt to gain a foothold into a market so that they could further control content/copying later.

  • Just use a separate TiVO box... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Ryu2 ( 89645 ) on Thursday July 18, 2002 @03:13PM (#3910897) Homepage Journal
    Bigger drive, no onerous potential DRM issues, can use it with any channel/cable system, not just locked into a single companys. And of course, runs Linux ;-).

    To me, the only advantage that these integrated boxes have is the ability to record digital MPEG-2 directly from the cable/satellite, without converting to and converting it back from analog and the loss. But guess what... the quality of the digital video stream is not all that great to begin with in most cases (the source signal is generally analog, passed through a real-time MPEG-2 encoder at the broadcasting facility, so it's not as good as say DVD) So quality loss is sort of negligle, IMO.
    • Because a TiVo SA will cost you 299.99+ and a subscription cost of 250 lifetime or 10/month. (I myself own 3 TiVos, but DTiVos) You already have the box (I assume it's part of a package) and don't need to go ahead purchase new hardware/subscriptions.

      TiVo did sign a big contract with Time Warner AOL awhile back, wonder if it'll be running TiVo software.
    • Bigger drive, no onerous potential DRM issues, can use it with any channel/cable system, not just locked into a single companys. And of course, runs Linux ;-).

      Read my message here [slashdot.org] for an opinion on why this could be way better than standalone TiVo (from someone who has both a standalone TiVo and TW digital cable):

      To me, the only advantage that these integrated boxes have is the ability to record digital MPEG-2 directly from the cable/satellite, without converting to and converting it back from analog and the loss. But guess what... the quality of the digital video stream is not all that great to begin with in most cases (the source signal is generally analog, passed through a real-time MPEG-2 encoder at the broadcasting facility, so it's not as good as say DVD) So quality loss is sort of negligle, IMO.

      So your reasoning is, because some digital channels are not in great shape, we might as well give up and have them encoded twice (once by the cable company, again by TiVo)? I say if the quality is already not great, you want to preserve that, at least!

      As for whether or not the digital quality is all that great to begin with -- it totally depends on the channel. The premier channels like HBO have GREAT looking digital channels.

      And, no, none of the digital channels are as good as DVD, but if you have TimeWarner's HDTV box, the HBO and Showtime HD channels regularly broadcast DVD-quality movies. In fact, most of the HD shows on TV, like Sopranos, CSI, NYPD Blue, etc are all filmed and then transferred to HD, which ends up giving a DVD-quality to the show (as opposed to the truly hi-def resolution you see with live 1020i HD broadcasts, and those saved to HD tape).

      I seriously hope TW will integrate HD recording into this box -- they could save that digital stream also. If TiVo ever does come out with an HD-capable box, it's going to have to take component (analog) inputs, and encode them digitally to save on the hard drive. Then decode them later to component output. YUCK!

  • It's called iControl (Score:2, Informative)

    by malarkey ( 514857 )
    and is already working in NE Wisconsin. Check out their webpage. [newicontrol.com]
  • I wonder if this will help TiVo and ReplyTV gain 'legitimacy'?"

    ReplyTV of course being the all-new super-special customer-oriented version of the new wave of pop-up ads for TV [slashdot.org]. These ads will not only let you know that the products you see during your favorite programming actually exist, but they will also let you interact with the ad. This new "feature" has been developed with the collaboration of major TV broadcasters and the makers of the X10 camera.
  • It doesn't record shows to hard drive. It just lets you pause and rewind. And they must be using some WMF format because the quality is worse than the worst setting on Tivo. It does not store video though.

  • DON'T FALL FOR THIS!!! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by darnellmc ( 524699 ) on Thursday July 18, 2002 @03:19PM (#3910946)
    It sounds great, but some key factors are missing!

    First of all, they will NEVER allow you to make digital copies. Tell them you want to burn copies to DVD or a PC hard-drive and see how warm a response you get....there will be none from them!

    They are allowing limited saving of shows. The limits are as big as the device's hard disk or maybe they will have other restrictions.

    This is not a major victory. AOL/TW is behind Tivo, so it's no shock that they will over some similar features to cable customers.

    This is OK, but don't get carried away with happiness. They still are not allowing people to make digital copies on removable media for personal use. Eventhough they save space and DVDs last longer than VCR tapes. Once DVD Burners become more common, they will probably ad some type of protection to prevent digital copies from being made to DVDs.
    • Okay, guy, take a deep breath and repeat after me: ``It is okay that I not be able to make digital copies of television broadcasts.'' I know that this isn't going to be a popular opinion on Slashdot, but I figured I burn a few karma points to advocate reasonable compromise.

      On the one hand, you have the Bad Old Days of VHS recorders that blinked 12:00 all the time. If you could remember to program your VCR and keep the tapes in order, you could make copies of your recordings to your heart's content.

      On the other hand, we have the current crop of digital video recorders that have no data I/O, only video in and out. Recording is a breeze, but you can't archive the things you record.

      Considered on balance, the status quo is by far the better of the two situations. Don't go pissing in the soup just because you don't care for the pot.
    • Why should you be allowed to make permanent copies on removable media? 99% of broadcast TV is copyrighted material. Your right to make a copy of this is for time-shifting purposes only - not to make a permanent copy.

      • Well I said a digital copy. I never said anything about making it permanent. Because while I have the copy in my possession I want the best picture and sound quality available. Just maybe I want to record a TV Show to a DVD, so I can watch it later when I have time. Say during a flight via a DVD Player. Or maybe I just want to take it to a family member's place to watch with them. Why not have the best video and sound available in either case?

        Allowing digital copies to be made to removable media WOULD NOT hurt movie company's profits.

        We all know that they want to kill VCRs. So a natural progression would require allowing people to copy things to digital removable media.

        For me it's about quality and portability. I would like to be able to watch something I record elsewhere and have the most portable highest quality copy that can be made.
  • The article says they will not have a commercial zapping feature but even the use of digital recording seems a major turn-around from what the entertainment industry has been saying so far.
    So that is so nice of them to *not* "zap" my stuff.. Wow.. what new things can we expect? Maybe, they will allow us to "Pay" for stuff too.. Sheesh..
  • I am a TW cable employee (don't throw anything I am just an intern), and will be attending a session (4 hours for some reason) on this really soon.
    I will say that they do know what the pricing is, and it will be rolled out in Greensboro, NC soon.
    In addition, in case anyone cares. The whole system runs off a full rack of about 10 Sun servers... I can find out more info on those if anyone wants...

    • I can find out more info on those if anyone wants...

      The following would be truly appreciated:
      1. What operating system does it run?
      2. What kind of a HD and partition does it use? (Standard or propietary)
      3. What other "special" devices are in it?
      4. What specifically is propietary and what is standard parts?
      5. What DRM management software is in it?
      6. Is it automagically updatable?
      7. What user usage data does it record?

      and any other pertinent info too would be useful, I'm sure.

      Actually, if you could just sneak out the information details, and scan them in, or get a monkey to type in, and submit a story to \., that would be truly appreciated.

      Of course, I am in no way, shape, or form, encouraging a company IP theft. [Enter further appropriate disclaimer here.]
  • Last week, Jamie Kellner, chairman of Turner Broadcasting System, also owned by AOL Time Warner, said television viewers could face paying for channels they now receive at no cost if PVRs kill commercials.

    Give me a break. The only advertising methods where reliable effectiveness measurements can be made are where the customer physically calls the vendor at an advertised number (or surfs to an advertised URL) within a given timeframe after an ad has been shown. Anything else is guesswork.

    If TV execs and advertisers are going to use PVR penetration as their effectiveness metric, their view will definitely be flawed.

    Perhaps if more ads were closed captioned, the ad auto-skip logic wouldn't automatically skip so many ads. Ads don't have to be integrated into the programming to defeat automation.
  • ... is what they're calling it. They've got absolutely atrocious advertising for the thing. I swear, every fifth billboard around here is some damn "ICONTROL" advertisement. They're all very sneaky and don't say anything about Time Warner, it's just these big black and orange monstrosities like "iControl . . . It's gonna change your life!" (seriously) and other such garbage. (To be fair, there IS one of them that actually says Time Warner Now. It was bad enough when I thought it was some new company, but now I know that it's coming from a corporation I already hate!) It's just all this "whoo, life without our PRODUCT is unimaginable!" "Hey, your life is HOLLOW and MEANINGLESS without our PRODUCT!" "If you don't own our PRODUCT you are a WORTHLESS EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING." And they're all over the place. After the third or fourth billboard I saw, I decided I would never buy whatever the hell it was. Yeah, something that's basically a VCR. That's gonna change my life all right. I'll tell you what would change my life: throwing away my damn TV.

    Sorry, that's been building up in me for some time now. :)

    • TiVo changed my TV-watching life. I don't surf and stuff any more either, I wasted a ton of time on that. Sure, I'm weak for needing a device to get me to stop :) but what can I say, it worked.

      Of course, heh, you'll see a lot of people telling you your life is hollow and meaningless just because you own a TV at all. These are the book-reading elitists. Feel free to slap them around. :)
      • Of course, heh, you'll see a lot of people telling you your life is hollow and meaningless just because you own a TV at all.
        I've got a number of friends who don't own TVs, and I always feel like a jerk after I've visited them. They never do the whole "more righteous than thou" thing with it, but these are also the kind of people who, in the course of an ordinary day, will, like, personally save three thousand children from starvation and then convince the U.S. to forgive the debt of some impoverished African country. and then cure cancer, and then when they get home, spend the rest of the night making up songs with a bunch of friends and their guitar. So you just feel like, "wow, so today I, uh, cleaned up my hard drive a bit." :P

    • Re:iControl (Score:2, Informative)

      by Zed2K ( 313037 )
      Wrong. iControl is not a digital recorder. iControl is just pay-per-view-on-demand with control options. The cable box that they get from Scientific Atlanta is the 8000 series http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/prod_su b_PVR.htm

      Check it out, it is not iControl at all. We've had that here for about a year now. We've had HBO on demand for a few months now also.
      • Oh, whoops. Misinformation on Slashdot, who'd've guessed? :) Although, to be fair, what's the difference between a digital recorder and something that'll allow you to paus, fast-forward, and rewind programs, and also start them up whenever you want? Although, now that I look at it, it doesn't say that iControl lets you start programs whenever you want . . . Hm.

        Man, that makes me even more upset about those damn billboards, though. At least this TIVO-like thing was legitimately cool. iControl just sucks. Grrrrr. That's the kind of thing that makes you want to go all Fight Club on billboards. Although I probably shouldn't say that. I might get reported to TIPS or something.

  • In Memphis. I have a couple friends that either work for TW or have a relative that does. They are testing this, to a degree. Except what they are testing does not require replacing their existing digital cable box.
    Appearently the choices are stored at TW's facility. They are also testing HBO on demand. One of them said they could select say the current season of Sex in the City and they get a listing of all current episodes for this season.
    The PVR like functionality is what intrigues me with them not having any kind of onsite hard drive in the box. When they press pause, it pauses instantly just like my Tivo.
  • > I wonder if this will help TiVo and ReplyTV gain 'legitimacy'?

    This idea of a ReplyTV intrigues me. Would it allow me to let those moronic sitcom writers know how I feel about that horrible cliche they just used? Or perhaps I could bitchslap that vapid anchorman the next time he screws up a technology story?

    Heck, an invention like this might get me watching TV again!
    • Well, you'd certainly be able to give 3 thumbs down to Fox's "When Bachelorretes in Alaska attack Cops II". That information gets sent back to Tivo (at least, probably Replay too).

      Strange thing is, the networks/stations are missing out on an incredible opportunity here, and one that should get Neilsen scared. Tivo makes no bones about the fact that they know what you watch and record. And that's great! Why? Because Tivo finds out that many of the shows I watch are not on broadcast TV (aside from Simpsons and Futurama), but on cable channels. Finally, a more accurate measurement of what shows we're watching. What would be thought of in ABC when they find out I'm more apt to watch "Good Eats" on FoodTV than "Drew Carey"? "Junkyard Wars" instead of "Crap we made up because we know you'll watch it - what else will you watch?". Wow.

  • A possible motive (Score:3, Interesting)

    by drdink ( 77 ) <smkelly+slashdot@zombie.org> on Thursday July 18, 2002 @03:41PM (#3911145) Homepage
    It seems to me that a possible motive for AOL/TW to be doing this is to be boosting the message [yahoo.com] they gave earlier this week:

    PASADENA, Calif. (AP) - Television viewers could face paying for channels they now receive free if digital video recorders kill commercials, said Jamie Kellner, chairman of Turner Broadcasting System.
    I would imagine that they are pushing for digital recording without ads, and are going to use this new deployment as evidence that it can and should be done without ad skipping. I imagine they'll try to undercut the price of ReplayTV and TiVo as well, in order to steal the business and eliminate the commercial skipping abilities.
  • I've got TW Digital cable in Columbus Ohio, and they've just recently started pitching their iControl system to us. Apparently it is a system that will allow us to pause and resume our PPV programming without missing anything. This is kinda nice in that I often use PPV instead of hitting blockbuster and sometimes have to leave the room during the movie for a minute.

    As far as the digital recorder function goes, it sounds neat but I imagine that we will be charged extra for the privilege. In my case, I still have a VCR if there's something that I really want too see that badly, and I don't have any problems recording off of any of the digital TV channels. At any rate, I wouldn't be too concerned about there being a lack of a "Commercial Zapper" button in their digital recording service, so long as you can still manually hold down the Fast Fordward button like you can with an old-school VCR.

    Now regarding the digital TV channels, I am not impressed with the quality. I have a relatively new TV that has excellent sharpness and clarity, but the picture when watching the digital channels doesn't look any better than the analog channels do on it. What's worse, I can often catch pixellation in action shots (usually sports), especially with (drum roll please) straight lines that run at a diagonal on the screen. I see this all the time when watching CART races on Speedvision (one of the digital channels) but I never see it when watching CART races on CBS (one of the analog channels).

    More importantly, why am I paying for digial cable but only receiving the allegedly "sharper, clearer" digital signal on half of my channels? I know that it sounds odd, but all of the channels that were previously available on my analog cable package work as they had previously. All of the channels that only became available with digital service all have a 2-3 second delay before they are displayed while changing channels (it has to switch data streams with the mothership, I assume). This is annoying. If it weren't for Speedvision (I need my CART and F1 fix) I wouldn't even have bothered with digital service, nor would I recommend it for someone who doesn't need it for a specific channel like I did as TW's implementation is less than impressive.
  • It comes with Digital Cable.... Been around for a few months. http://www.twcny.com/services/iControl/index.cfm?T hankYou=One "iCONTROL puts the power of Video on Demand in your Digital Cable box. No late night visits to the video store...no late fees...no tapes to return...no stress. Order the movie you want...ANYTIME! ALWAYS IN Movies are always available. Start a movie when you want. Pause, Fast Forward & Rewind the movie with your Digital Cable remote control... without using the VCR. Choose from a digital library featuring a wide selection of new releases and movie favorites. All from the convenience of your own home. Coming Summer 2002. Watch our web site and the mail for official launch dates. You need to have Digital Cable to get Video on Demand with iCONTROL " Thorstein

  • New idea. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Restil ( 31903 ) on Thursday July 18, 2002 @04:00PM (#3911285) Homepage
    Probably not a NEW idea. The media companies are worried about losing revenue due to fewer people watching commercials. Tell me something, why do people skip through the commercials? Its very simple. THEY DON'T WANT TO WATCH THEM. Yet for some reason, there's a large demographic of people that watch the Superbowl ONLY for the commercials.

    What it all rolls down to is this, people watch TV to be entertained. With exception of the Superbowl, commercial breaks are lulls in the entertainment experience. They're a necessary evil, and people are willing to tolerate them as long as they have to, but the second they have an option to skip through them, they don't hesitate.

    The secret here, ladies and gentlemen, is to create commercials that are WORTH WATCHING. If your commercial is so entertaining that someone is willing to watch it rather than skip through it, then the entire "PVR commercial theft" issue gets thrown right out the window. If people looked forward to commercials, they would probably also be more interested in the products being advertised.

    Seems that this idea might work for other industries as well. Take the music industry for instance. Produce less crap, and more people might buy the music, less money will be wasted on the so called 90% of the content that loses money, and everyone will be happy.

    Or maybe I'm just out of my tree.

    -Restil
    • That is why I watch TV at night.
      I can't get enough of those "call me at 1-900" babes. And since I'm going bald, I like to see my choices in hair loss reduction.

    • With exception of the Superbowl, commercial breaks are lulls in the entertainment experience.

      Maybe a good number of people think that the football plays are lulls in the primary entertainment experience of cool ads.

    • A more likely comprimise is adding more appearant commercials INSIDE of the shows.

      Like in the move "the truman show".

      "Holy Pepsi Batman, Joker has stolen Gotham's Snickers supply and is headed towords the abandoned Nike factory! To the BMWatmobile!"
  • Paint me a cynic, but....

    What would be the ultimate prize in digital recording? Hint, its already being used in major league baseball, certain New Years broadcasts, and other televised events. Give up? I'm talking about Dynamic Advertising!

    Let me put on my Content Distributor Cap... I can already charge advertising dollars for commercial space in the original broadcast... but what if I can REPLACE the advertising space on a recording with NEW advertising based on when the recording was watched?

    I can charge prime-time advertising costs to those companies who want their adverts in the "live" version, then I can charge a second rate for the "replay" version... or even tailor the commercials to trigger on time of day. Watching that horror movie at 10PM? Why not throw in a few ice cream commercials...

    There are possibilities for people to make a lot of money out there...
  • It's called DirecTV with a DirecTivo unit.
    I can even fast foward through the commercials.

    What's the big announcement here again?

  • The free bad option (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nick_davison ( 217681 ) on Thursday July 18, 2002 @05:59PM (#3912247)
    Back in the 80s an 90s, Microsoft destroyed the OS competition by pretty much giving away their OS. It may not have been so good but it came with your PC and seemed to be free, so most people stuck with it. Then in the 90s they did the same with web browsers.

    Now we have TW's PVR. It's not actually as useful as Tivo or ReplayTV but it comes with your cable service, it'll no doubt be marketted as a nice and cheap add on, so most people'll go with it rather than Tivo or ReplayTV. It also won't actually allow commercial skipping, or file sharing, or anything else Time Warner didn't like before hand.

    So, what we're really seeing is them using their market position to force the suppliers of a product that they don't like out of the market. What are the odds that TW's real plan is that, in another five years, TiVo and ReplayTV will have all but pulled out of the market and the Time Warner PVR will force you to keep watching those ads. Even better, as you have to watch your TV through it, they'll be able to stop you channel surfing too.

    Forgive me if I don't see this as an amazing U-turn from Time Warner, nor the beginning of their acceptance of PVRs (as we currently know them).

  • In other news... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Guppy06 ( 410832 ) on Thursday July 18, 2002 @06:28PM (#3912493)
    DSS receiver boxes have been sold with TiVo and UltimateTV hardware for quite some time now.

    Once again the cable television industry is doing too little, too late to keep from losing yet more customers to digital satellite...

  • Sky+ (Score:2)

    by plumby ( 179557 )
    This isn't new. Sky in the UK has been offering this feature for at least 6 months with something called Sky+ [sky.com].

  • I work at CNN... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Tempest261 ( 594300 )
    I'm working on the CNN Digital Archive project and I believe that this digital recording technology is being developed to support this project, but I also heard that they are definately planning to lease out as much of this technology to make up for the enormous R&D and equipment costs that I'm seeing dumped into this project.

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