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Music Media

Real Will Include Ogg Vorbis Support 328

Posted by michael from the sounds-good-to-me dept.
Skuto writes "Following the example of AOL with Winamp, RealNetworks has decided to give Ogg Vorbis their sign of approval and will be including support into their player software. The press release has more information. Meanwhile, independent listening tests are being set up to determine how well Vorbis fares against its competitors WMA, AAC and MP3Pro. You can help by signing up for the tests here." A couple of comments (1, 2) in our previous story provide the best description of what Real is doing, if you missed them.
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Real Will Include Ogg Vorbis Support More

Real Will Include Ogg Vorbis Support

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  • Anybody (Score:5, Interesting)

    by scott1853 ( 194884 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:16PM (#3947343)
    Does anybody still have Real Player installed? And actually use it for a general player and not just for when certain cites require it for video clips?

    • Re:Anybody (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonvmous Coward ( 589068 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:23PM (#3947397)
      Yeah I do... lots of porn uses it.
    • Does anybody still have Real Player installed? And actually use it for a general player and not just for when certain cites require it for video clips?

      Of course. RealPlayer is actually pretty good as an mp3 stream player. What else is there on Linux for streaming video anyway ? (besides the almighty mplayer [mplayerhq.hu]).

      -DZM
    • Does anybody still have Real Player installed? And actually use it for a general player and not just for when certain cites require it for video clips?

      I've got it installed, but just because a friend of mine gave me some files in that format. It's incredibly bloated software, and I have ZoneAlarm totally blocking it from the internet, because I caught it trying to get on several times a day, even when it was supposedly not running. Unfortunately, Quicktime looks to be getting almost as bad with the bloat, though it does behave when I tell it not to check for updates.

  • Hardware Acceptance (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bonker ( 243350 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:16PM (#3947345)
    Software decoders in Winamp, Real, and hopefully Quicktime is only the first step. Ogg will be in the pink when hardware decoders start showing up in the form of CD MP3 players with Vorbis Support and DVD players that will decode Ogg's as well as MP3's and other formats.
    • I just looked around for something that would let me play ogg files on my Jornada, but I couldn't find anything. Does an application to do this exist?

      I use my jornada as my portable audio player, even though it's not really very good as an MP3 player. If there was an app out there, I could switch to ogg without any trouble.

      • Re:Pocket PC support? (Score:2, Informative)

        by ironhide ( 803 )
        I play oggs on my jornada with the latest pocketdivx. You should try the movie clips at pocketmatrix also, ofcourse you can also capture your own tv-programs to watch them on the road.

    • Re:Hardware Acceptance (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Neon Spiral Injector ( 21234 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:53PM (#3947608)
      Ogg Vorbis on DVD players will be a bit more work for the manufacturers. Don't forget that MP3 is really MPEG Audio Layer 3. By supporting MPEG systems they get automatic MP3 decoder support. If they want to add Ogg Vorbis support that means they'll have to include a totally seperate set of routines in their decoding software.

      Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the support. But we'll probally see it adopted much quicker in dedicated MP3 players first, cause they don't have full MPEG support so they aren't getting something for nothing, they just have custom audio decoding software.
      • Actually, this is not the case. DVD players decode MPEG2. MP3 is part of MPEG1 (MPEG1 Audio Layer 3), and thus not needed by a DVD player. The only reason it's being added so cheaply is there are cheap complete solutions to add MP3 cd playback.

        • Re:Hardware Acceptance (Score:2, Informative)

          by pricedl ( 47059 )
          Actually, this is not the case. DVD players decode MPEG2. MP3 is part of MPEG1 (MPEG1 Audio Layer 3), and thus not needed by a DVD player.
          Most DVD players, including my cheap-o one, also decode MPEG1. Ever heard of VCD?
        • Actually, that's not the case either. MPEG audio support is optional for DVD supports. Only AC-3 and PCM are mandated.

          MPEG audio was in the draft spec for PAL DVD, but was dropped for the final version. It was never in NTSC.
  • This is great. The more exposure OV gets, the closer we get to getting world wide acceptance of technology without legal overhead and high priced licensing.

  • now all that's left is for iTunes to support it (Score:5, Insightful)

    by krog ( 25663 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:18PM (#3947355) Homepage
    once iTunes supports Vorbis, then all the major players will support it. that means it will be ubiquitous, and anyone will be able to use .ogg without worrying about if someone has an ogg player.

    talk to Apple if you want to see it happen: feedback page [apple.com]
  • mp3 is alredy the defacto standard for cd-ripping. Support for Ogg is just too late to matter to anyone except for geeks on this site.

    The only company whose support would make any difference is... MicroSoft. If they blessed Ogg, you might see players ship that can handle it. Otherwise, it's just a nerd's pipe dream. If fraunhoffer ever gets serious, maybe you'll see some games and similar things ship with Ogg's instead of mp3's. But this race is already run.

    • Re:Day late. Dollar short. (Score:4, Interesting)

      by leshert ( 40509 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:27PM (#3947431) Homepage
      A few years ago, you could have said the same thing about PNG. Now, every major image editor supports it, as do all the major image viewers and web browsers.

      The existence of a defacto standard doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to improve on that standard.
      • I agree. Improvement is a good thing. But Ogg isn't an improvement on MP3, except in some very marginal ways. Best I can discern, Ogg is about equivalent to MP3, except for the lack of software and hardware that supports it.
    • mp3 is alredy the defacto standard for cd-ripping. Support for Ogg is just too late to matter to anyone except for geeks on this site.

      The only company whose support would make any difference is... MicroSoft. If they blessed Ogg, you might see players ship that can handle it. Otherwise, it's just a nerd's pipe dream. If fraunhoffer ever gets serious, maybe you'll see some games and similar things ship with Ogg's instead of mp3's. But this race is already run.

      I beg to differ. Although MP3 is firmly entrenched, the vast amount of encoders available ensures that an MP3 cannot be judged by bitrate. I know of several people who would be overjoyed to see a "real" standard for audio, with an official encoder. Just one encoder. Not an official one and lots of spinoffs. If the encoder is done right, and is free, open-source, and open to outside contribution, then there are no reason for spinoffs. This ensures identical quality across the board.

      Why is this important? File-sharing networks. I HATE downloading a 192 kbps MP3, and finding it to sound like a 96 kbps one made by LAME.
      • The quality of LAME's --r3mix setting just makes me smile. Is there an equalivant setting with the Ogg Vorbis encoder? Something that uses VRB, allows it to go as high as needed to encode the audio well, but saves every chance it can?

    • Re:Day late. Dollar short. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by garett_spencley ( 193892 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:29PM (#3947444) Journal
      I personally don't really give a shit if little Johnny down the street is using ogg or not.

      What matter to me is wether I'm using ogg or not and at the moment the answer is yes. All of the cds that I rip are ripped into ogg.

      And when I download music I don't care the slightest bit wether it's in mp3 or ogg because if I really like it I'll go buy the album and then I'll rip it into ogg. If I don't like it enough to buy the album then I don't like it enough to want it in a better format either so it doesn't matter.

      The only thing I would like to see regarding ogg is portable ogg players (that also support mp3 of course) and other devices like dvd players etc. But with Real and AOL blessing ogg maybe that's not a pipe dream afterall?

      Just because I prefer a certain format doesn't mean other people need to prefer the same.

      --
      Garett
    • Wish I had mod points. After a discussion a few days ago, on the occasion of the 1.0 release, I came to the same conclusion. Ogg offers a couple of features that MP3 lacks, but they are useful only in very specific situations. I'm a heavy user of MP3s-- as I mentioned elsewhere, I have ripped my collection of about 400 CDs to MP3, and I play selections from that library practically every day-- and I can't come up with a good reason why I would be interested in Ogg. The software is there, the hardware is there. Unless something changes drastically, I predict that Ogg will pretty much continue to be irrelevant to all but a select few.

    • Re:Day late. Dollar short. (Score:4, Informative)

      by FatRatBastard ( 7583 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:35PM (#3947491) Homepage
      mp3 is alredy the defacto standard for cd-ripping. Support for Ogg is just too late to matter to anyone except for geeks on this site.

      Nope, software developers as well, esp. game developers. You have to pay scratch if your compressed audio is MP3 (good old Thompson Multimedia want their cut), so OGG actually does pretty well in that niche.
    • What'll happen is people will get bored with Mp3 and want to move to something 'better'. As long as Ogg keeps improving, it'll eventually take over. That is, of course, assuming that it stays on top and something new doesn't come along and knock it out of it's roost.

      I do wonder, though: Is there a point where they'll stop trying to make music smaller? Internet is only getting faster and storage is only getting bigger. What happens when fingernail sized memory cards can cheaply handle gigs of RAM?
    • I disagree simply because with time MP3 will become less and less competitive versus more state-of-the-art formats. MP3 is not going to get much better in terms of encoding quality (it's all in the encoding, but we have a bunch of very good encoders already). So when a number of newer formats arrive that can encode at the same quality in half or third the size of MP3 (we're not far from that already), there'll be more and more pressure to switch to it.

      Now whether Ogg will be the winner, that's hard to tell. I'd bet more money on some Micro$oft closed format...

      DZM
      • Technical superiority matters not a whit to the individuals, nor to the 'marketplace' that they comprise.

        Beta over VHS, LD over VHS, Mac (and others) over MS OS, MD over CD, etc, etc, etc.

    • As long as there are companies like Forgent who try to claim frivolous patent royalties on formats that are for all intensive purposes the de facto standards, there will be a market for OSS products. In the compressed audio arena, this is Ogg Vorbis' greatest benefit, and one that may ultimately be its raison d'etre.

      Additionally, I've heard the comparisons of .ogg files vs. .wma and .mp3 files, and with little tweaking, .ogg is as good if not better than the heavily tweaked competitors. It seems to be the better choice overall. Acceptance will only be limited by usage.
    • mp3 is alredy the defacto standard for cd-ripping. Support for Ogg is just too late to matter to anyone except for geeks on this site.

      And if CD ripping were the only function of compressed audio, you might have a point. But Vorbis has some genuine, big advantages for streaming audio. A single file, for instance, can be streamed at different bitrates without modification, so you can easily adjust the rate to each user according to his connection speed. There's also no licensing fee, which might be enough to make the difference between being profitable or not to the streaming company. And, of course, Vorbis is supposed to give better sound quality at a given bitrate, so more connections can be supported for a given bandwidth.

      As long as a format gives advantages for the producer or distributor of files, there will be a reason for files to be generated in that format. Now that the biggest obstacle to using Vorbis- the lack of ubiquitous players- has been eliminated, those producers and distributors can start taking advantage. It doesn't matter whether Joe User understands why he should want to switch to Vorbis if the people who are generating the files he listens to have already made the decision for him.

    • "mp3 is alredy the defacto standard for cd-ripping."

      Actually, it's the defacto standard for file sharing. For ripping your own CDs, you'd be a fool to stick to mp3 - you can get much better sound in less disk space with Ogg. One place Ogg really needs support is in CD ripping applications, like AudioCatalyst.

      See what you can do with your filesharing app to get it to share and search .ogg files - and if it doesn't, lobby the programmers.

    • You remember back in like 97 when low quality Real-Audio streams were the rage and mp3 was like this new weird thing that nobody really knew about? (at least amongst me + geeks i knew)
      there is NO reason Ogg can't take over as the de-facto standard. especially if it really is a better format.
      sure, it might not be tomorrow but with the increasing ease of switching (i.e. with all this new software support), mp3 is _anything_ but entrenched and could be uprooted with half of users not even knowing what file type they are playing.

  • I'd try Ogg Vorbis ... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Bryan Ischo ( 893 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:19PM (#3947370) Homepage
    ... but, I made a pact with myself some years ago to never use any file format that was named in the Klingon language.

    Seriously, the name is so stupid and embarrassing to say or read that I wonder if people won't resist it for that reason alone. I'm not being facetious here, either. I'm hesitent to listen to Ogg Vorbis format files because I would be too embarrassed to have to say "It's Ogg Vorbis" should someone ask me what I'm listening to ...

    • What?!? (Score:4, Funny)

      by A nonymous Coward ( 7548 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:23PM (#3947398)
      You've got a name like Ischo and you complain that Ogg Vorbis sounds stupid and embarrassing?!?

    • Re:I'd try Ogg Vorbis ... (Score:4, Funny)

      by jglow ( 525234 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:25PM (#3947413) Homepage Journal
      I think you have other issues. I have no problem saying ogg vorbis simply because people look at me strange when I say it.

      Ogg what?
      Ogg Vorbis

      It'd be different if it was called Barbie's Dream Audio Compression.
      • I find "Ogg Vorbis" equally as embarrassing as "Barbie's Dream Audio Compression". Honestly. I'm probably alone in this, but it's true.
        • You are not alone, the name is utterly stupid and sadly I think it does impact the amount of people who know about this format.

    • Re:I'd try Ogg Vorbis ... (Score:5, Funny)

      by tswinzig ( 210999 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:45PM (#3947548) Journal
      I'm hesitent to listen to Ogg Vorbis format files because I would be too embarrassed to have to say "It's Ogg Vorbis" should someone ask me what I'm listening to ...

      I imagine the conversation going like this:

      Joe: Hey Bryan, what are you listening to?

      Bryan: Ogg Vorbis

      Joe: No you fucking idiot, what is the name of the song you're listening to? Who the fuck cares what format you encoded it in?!
    • Anybody else get the eerily and relevant fortune at the bottom of the page?

      "The medium is the message." -- Marshall McLuhan

    • ... but, I made a pact with myself some years ago to never use any file format that was named in the Klingon language.

      Ahh, is that where it came from? I was wondering. It is unfortunate, Klingon inheritance aside.

      Guess Marketing does have some value after all! ;-)

      -Bill


    • You are being silly. "Vorbis" is neither more nor less silly than "Linux".
    • Why is ogg any more strange as a word than egg?

      Once people get used to it, it will be ok.

      At least it's a word, and not an acronym.
      • Note that it only sounds strange in English, in French it doesn't sound that strange (of course this my personal opinion). Oddity is probably something which depends of the language use use
    • Seriously, the name is so stupid and embarrassing to say or read that I wonder if people won't resist it for that reason alone.
      You have a point although Ogg Vorbis doesn't sound as bad as GIMP. I have a hard time convincing people that they should use a program called GIMP. It has negative connotations to most people. I think the strange names that some projects have or will be a barrier to Linux being accepted on the desktop.

  • Open Source wins again (Score:2, Interesting)

    by tps12 ( 105590 )
    Victory! First Real puts out a Linux version, then we learn that Real is going Open Source (and not just with their own stuff, but with Microsoft's as well), and now they embrace Ogg, the best codec ever!

    It's good to see companies finally "get" Free Software. I am now going to Real's website to download the latest RealPlayer public alpha for $25, just to show my support for their recent behavior. I encourage every person in the world to do the same.

    Linux rules!
    • You know, I'm pretty sure the author is trying to be sarcastic here. Am I wrong? Other repliers don't seem to be getting that.
  • When Ogg Vorbis 1.0 was released, I converted all my audio CD's to Ogg files. It looks as if the Ogg encoder is much faster than LAME with variable bitrate, but I haven't really compared them accurately.

    I fear the issue with Ogg Vorbis is that it is not as known as MP3. OK, so Unreal2 uses Ogg Vorbis... but do you honestly believe most gamers really read the manual, and especially the credits? I wouldn't think so.

    At my work, I told a few employees about Ogg Vorbis, and absolutely no one ever heard about it. Some even said: "Why would I want to use that? I have MP3 and it works fine!". They simply don't care about patents and such, they just want it to work...

    Based upon this, I fear Ogg Vorbis will only be used by geeks. Maybe when major software like Nero can instantly create Ogg files and not just MP3 files when saving tracks, it will be more known by the masses.

    • Re:Ahh, but you forgot one thing.... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by RadioheadKid ( 461411 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:53PM (#3947601)
      Based upon this, I fear Ogg Vorbis will only be used by geeks.
      Many people are listeners not rippers. Geeks are the most efficient rippers and propagators of music. Many people don't care what format to which they are listening, as long as it plays in their favorite player. I send files to my friends in Ogg Vorbis format. The first time I sent them, I attached the Winamp plugin. Now, you don't even have to do that, it's included. One of my friends said that he hates when he finishes listening to one of the songs I sent to him and then the next song is an mp3, he realizes how bad a lot of his mp3's sound.

      Now not having a portable Ogg Vorbis player is a whole different story...

      • The fact that it's included in Winamp now is I think one of the most important factors for Ogg's adoption. I used to encode only in mp3, because when I sent files to a non-computer-literate friend, it'd be a pain in the ass to also send the Ogg plugin, explain how to install it, all the while being asked why my files can't be played by default Winamp like normal MP3s can be, etc. Now if I send an Ogg and they can't play it, I just say "your version of Winamp is too old; upgrade to the newest one," which is a concept even the most tech-illiterate person understands.
    • Oddly enough I heard nearly the same exact thing about mp3's 6-7 years ago...
    • Some even said: "Why would I want to use that? I have MP3 and it works fine!". They simply don't care about patents and such, they just want it to work...

      The evangelism tack to take here is that Ogg makes much smaller files for better quality. Like, 70% of the space. So they can fit a lot more on their hard disk, if their interest is their CD collection.

      If their interest is filesharing, then obviously that's not going to work as well. But with WinAmp and Real supporting Oggs out the box, people will be able to use .ogg files they find. And if your favoured filesharing network doesn't have .ogg as an audio format, be sure to let the developers know!

    • All we need is fraunhofer to assert patent rights over mp3 the way Forgent is asserting patent rights over jpeg. This stuff DOES happen, and perhaps the mere possibility of it happening will lead to the eventual wide adoption of Vorbis.

      .
  • I sent an email to SonicBlue asking if they were planning on adding support for ogg vorbis on the RioVolt SP250 via a firmware update. I received the following response:

    Dear Valued Customer,
    Nothing in the works yet. Maybe in the future.

    Looks like I won't have portable oggs for a while.
    • I don't know the exact specification of the RioVolt but I would doubt it. A lot of portable players have a little chip that *ONLY* decodes MP3 and can't do anything else, and the other chip they use to drive the LCD, buttons, etc doesn't have the power to decode anything.

      Tim
      • FYI Rio Volt decodes mp3 and wma so I don't hitnk it would be too hard to add ogg.
        • FYI Rio Volt decodes mp3 and wma so I don't hitnk it would be too hard to add ogg.

          I recall reading some place that .wma is just a one off from mp3s and that it is nothing much special, likely all integer decoding as well. Was that integer decoding library thing for ogg ever worked out?

          • Was that integer decoding library thing for ogg ever worked out?

            Xiph.org finances development of Ogg media technology by selling shared-source licenses for a proprietary fixed-point Vorbis decoder. (Fixed-point math is an approximation to floating-point math using the integer arithmetic instructions of a DSP.) But now that Ogg Vorbis 1.0 is out and that the help file contains the complete Vorbis audio layer I specification, you'll probably see a couple fixed-point ports of Xiph.org's reference decoder pop up on the usual sites [sourceforge.net].

    • Sonicblue licensed the RioVolt design from iRiver [iriver.com] for models SP-90, 100, and 250 (Don't believe me? Go to the link and look for the iMP-100 and 250 and look at the pictures. SP-90 is just a stripped down 100)

      In theory, all the iRiver and Riovolt players can be upgraded for Ogg support because of the flash firmware available on the players. One thing to note is that iRiver usually releases firmware much more frequently and much earlier than Rio does, so official Rio fw updates containing ogg might take even longer to release. However, rumor has it that iRiver is having trouble implementing Ogg support. Two reasons I've heard on the mp3.com message boards [mp3.com] is that there's some floating point calculations involved or that they've run into legal troubles releasing the firmware [mp3.com] (look for the reply by CrashWire). The first reason is plausible, although I don't know if that's the real reason. Can someone tell me if Ogg actually does go through some floating point calcs? The second reason sounds really really really doubtful since legal troubles is precisely what Ogg is trying to avoid.

      • "Can someone tell me if Ogg actually does go through some floating point calcs?"

        It sure does. This is a BIG problem with putting Ogg Vorbis in devices - while all personal computers these days have floating point, quite a lot of embedded processors don't.

        So if you're feeling all inspired, get to work on making the Vorbis decoder integer-clean!

  • MP3 and OGG HOWTO Update (Score:4, Informative)

    by philkerr ( 180450 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @04:42PM (#3947535) Homepage
    Ok, blatant karma whoring but it was on the to-do list :)

    I'm in the process of updating the MP3 and OGG HOWTO as it's been a year since it was last updated (just read the threat link, I left in Feb.).

    http://www.mp3-howto.com [mp3-howto.com]

    Drop me a line with suggestions and comments.

    Cheers

    Phil

    • For the mp3 portion, I'd suggest recommending one of the --alt-preset command lines for LAME. They're heavily tweaked with double-blind tests (Dibrom, one of the LAME developers and the owner of hydrogenaudio.org, coordinates them), and perform much better than the standard LAME psychoacoustic model, which is by this point at least 2-3 years old and woefully bad in comparison. For most people, --alt-preset standard should be a sufficient command-line, and results on most music in 180-200 kbps files. For the audiophiles, --alt-preset extreme is in the 230-250 kbps range, though the vast majority of people can't tell the different on most music.

      These are going to be better than "custom" command lines in virtually all cases, as they aren't just presets for the standard LAME command lines; they include important code-level tweaks as well that get enabled when you enter --alt-preset mode (they're not enabled by default mostly due to some infighting amongst LAME developers, and partly due to a belief that only crazy audiophiles will notice the difference anyway).

      In fact they're so good that they're generally considered to equal Ogg at equal bitrates, despite the fact that Ogg is an inherently better-designed format for high-quality encoding (because Ogg hasn't been nearly as carefully tuned, especially at high bitrates; that's in the works for future releases).
  • While Ogg Vorbis has a few technical advantages (better tagging, more advanced streaming) over mp3, there isn't a compelling reason for the end-user to switch, as many posters have already noted.

    Why should users switch when mp3 technology is practically free and ubiquitous? MP3 software is cheap/free, and MP3 hardware's pretty affordable.

    Still, if you want to release an mp3 playback/encoding device, you've got to pay Fraunhofer a licensing fee. Currently this doesn't cost a lot.

    But what if Fraunhofer is keeping the licensing fee low for now, in order to stimulate demand and ubiquity of the format, and decides to jack up the prices later once the market is (relatively) dependant on mp3's?

    You know this could happen... we've seen similar examples in the JPG and GIF cases. (slightly different strategy, but same aim... let people become dependant for free/cheap, then jack up the cost once they have no alternative)

    In the end, the main benefit of OGg Vorbis might be keeping mp3's cheap. If device/software manufacturers hedge their bets now and include Ogg Vorbis support in everything, Fraunhofer will be much less likely to try and exert a stranglehold on the market later... since they'll know there's already a free and slightly superior alternative to mp3's waiting in the wings.
  • Just reading this article, and the quote at the bottom cought my eye...

    "The medium is the message." -- Marshall McLuhan

    Nothing could be more true in this case.
  • I read about Ogg Vorbis a while ago, and I thought it would never become mainstream. But it looks like OV's really made a name for itself. I'm going to have to test some Ogg files against WMA and MP3. I've had CDex for a few months, but I never knew it could do this. Ogg Vorbis will triumph, and all this RealPlayer open-source news makes me feel a little less shaken by all the DMCA news. Thank you Slashdot!

  • get over it (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @05:10PM (#3947696)
    a quote from ogg developer :

    OK, since only about half of the mail we get is about the name 'Ogg Vorbis', it's clearly time to karma-whore a popular subject and open this can of worms one more time.
    Our "The Name Sucks!"/"The name Rulez!" mail ratio is about 50/50. Some of you have threatened to kill us if we change the name, some of you have threatened to kill us if we don't. So you're gonna hear what I think about it. I'm not going to waste the opportunity my minor fame gives me for a healthy round of peer-mockery.

    I Like The Name. I Wrote the Software. The Name Stays.

    But there's more to this story than 'nyah nyah'. The 'rename Ogg!' forces have provided me with some of my favorite mail ever. I recall fondly the guy who went on, in great detail, why 'Ogg Vorbis' sucks, and that I must adopt 'a cutting edge, truly kick-ass name like "FreeMP3"!!!!!'

    As for 'Ogg Vorbis', I hadn't really meant the 'Vorbis' part to get tacked on. The name of the format is Ogg. Just Ogg. Vorbis happens to be the first codec. Had 'Vorbis' been perhaps one more syllable (like, say 'Sorensen'), we wouldn't have this problem. People would just call it 'Ogg' like God (that's me) intended. Of course, particularly obsessive people *do* occasionally say 'QuickTime Sorensen', but they don't get invited to parties much, and when invited, they are shunned. 'Course they're usually just arguing with the punch bowl so shunning is easy.

    I don't want my users to be shunned at parties, so I'm gonna help you out here. Just call it 'Ogg'. Ogg is a good, simple, very satisfying word.

    It makes a good noun, a better verb and can even be used effectively in a curse. It is a real word and contains no numbers. It has only two unique characters, making it simpler than mp3. It is only one syllable, making it shorter to say than mp3. If you still can't handle it, try reboot-reinstall.

    Monty
    xiph.org

  • What about MS? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by GrandCow ( 229565 )
    Unfortunately many of the people listening to music (and arguably rip a decent portion of it) are still using Windows Media Player to listen to files. I'd say that in order for Ogg to reach critical mass support will have to be included in the next release of WMP.

  • Dagnabbit, I've somehow managed to develop a completely irrational impatience to see an "official" implementation, or at LEAST an official spec, for a reasonably free-as-in-speech video-in-ogg format, and now that Ogg/Vorbis 1.0 is out, I was hoping they'd get a chance to get at least a creaky alpha version of the VP3 code and ogg mux'er out Real Soon Now...but instead [from the press release]:

    the Xiph.org Foundation will begin immediate work on the Ogg Vorbis plug-ins.

    Another distraction....

    Hopefully, the potential for Theora to be used in RealPlayer/Server will spur some development on it soon, too. People are starting to get impatient, and unnofficial video-in-ogg is already appearing which may or may not be "compatible" with the official one, if it ever comes out....

    • There is already some maintainance work going on with the VP3 code, but you are right - converting the code over to use the Ogg framework will take a little time.

      The projected timeframe at the moment is to have everything ready by next summer.

      Writing a Vorbis plugin for Real will not serious impact this work ... it's not particularly hard to write a plugin :)

  • Don't like ogg vorbis? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Cyno ( 85911 )
    That's fine. You've all read about the recent Forgent JPG thing. So you know that patented formats such as MP3 could easily be licensed for a reasonable fee. If you want to pay that fee then feel free to continue using MP3s. But don't complain when, in a few years, you find yourself converting hundreds of gigs of MP3s to some other format to avoid licensing costs and to maintain compatibility. You've been warned!
  • Does anyone have a list of Ogg hardware players?

    I have a "Riovolt" MP3 player that plays fullsize CDR-W's and has a good interface. I'm happy except for whatever ungodly WRONG reason it plays WMAs and not Oggs (okay, because the Ogg was not 1.0 at the time).

    Now I'm very interested in hardware that has upgradeable firmware and has at least some plan to support Ogg in the future.
  • REALNETWORKS, INC. END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT REALNETWORKS PRODUCTS REDISTRIBUTION NOT PERMITTED Software License for RealOne Player

    AUTOMATIC COMMUNICATIONS FEATURES.

    a) The Software consists of interactive Internet applications that perform a variety of communications over the Internet as part of their normal operation. A number of communications features are automatic and are enabled by default!!! By installing and/or using the Software, you consent to the Software's communications features. Once you log into the Software, user information including your user id will be sent in communications with RN's servers. This information is used to access your regular account, premium content, non-premium content, services, features, and other personalized services. RN may match the user id to personally identifiable information in order to provide you with products, services, and software that you're entitled to and to provide you with relevant information. You are responsible for any telecommunications or other connectivity charges incurred through use of the Software!!!

    b) Cookies: The Software also allows the use of cookies....

    c) AutoUpdate: The RealOne Player, using AutoUpdate, automatically communicates with RN's servers on the Internet to check for updates to RN's and RN partner's software, such as bug fixes, patches, enhanced functions, missing plug-ins and new versions. AutoUpdate also has the capability to run independently of RealOne Player to perform background update checks. RN may download updates during the background checks, when RealOne Player automatically communicates with RN's servers, when you manually check for updates, or when RealOne Player detects a file it does not support. AutoUpdate sends information about installed RealNetworks' products and components to the servers to determine upgrade availability. If you prefer to be notified when an auto-update is performed, follow these steps: On the Tools menu, select Preferences, AutoUpdate, and then de-select "Automatically download and install software updates." However, as we describe above, certain updates to RealOne Player functionality will happen automatically and without advance notification!

    d) Message Center: The RealOne Player software, using Message Center, automatically communicates with RN's servers to check for new important messages, including software updates and service bulletins. Message Center can also run independently of RealOne Player to perform background new message checks. Message Center sends information about installed RealNetworks' products and components to the servers to allow receipt of suitable product update and other messages. Message Center is set by default to show message headlines and to check for messages once or twice a week. You can change the way messages are displayed and the frequency messages are checked by following these steps... If you sign up for services that send messages more often than the frequency you have selected, your frequency selection may be adjusted!

    7. SCHEDULER. An application Scheduler, known as "evntsvc.exe," is installed along with RealOne Player. Once installed, it runs independently of RealOne Player....

    8. DIGITAL RIGHTS MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS ("DRMs"). a) The Software includes a DRM called the RealSystem Media Commerce Update Software ("Media Commerce Software") and may include third party DRMs as Plug-in components, which are subject to their own license agreements. DRMs are designed to manage and enforce intellectual property rights in digital content purchased over the Internet. You may not take any action to circumvent or defeat the security or content usage rules provided or enforced by either the DRM or the Software. DRMs may be able to revoke your ability to use applicable content. RN is not responsible for the operation of the third party DRM in any way, including revocation of your content. RN is not responsible for any communications to or from any third party DRM provider, or for the collection or use of information by third party DRMs. You consent to the communications enabled and/or performed by the DRM, including automatic updating of the DRM without further notice, despite the provisions of AutoUpdate defined in Section 6(c). You agree to indemnify and hold harmless RN for any claim relating to your use of a third party DRM. b) Content providers are using the digital rights management technology contained in this Software to protect the integrity of their content("Secure Content") so that their intellectual property, including copyright, in such content is not misappropriated. Owners of such Secure Content ("Secure Content Owners") may, from time to time, request RN or its suppliers to provide security related updates to the DRM components of the Software ("Security Updates") that may affect your ability to copy, display and/or utilize the Software. You therefore agree that, if you elect to download a license from the Internet which enables your use of Secure Content, RN or its suppliers may, in conjunction with such license, also download onto your computer such Security Updates that a Secure Content Owner has requested that RN or its suppliers distribute. Unless notification is provided to you, RN and its suppliers will not retrieve any personally identifiable information, or other information, from your computer by downloading such Security Updates. c) The Media Commerce Software allows you to receive and playback content that has been digitally secured by a content provider. The Media Commerce Software interacts with your computer in the following ways: 1. Hardware information: In order to download the appropriate software, RealOne Player must send certain anonymous information about the hardware on your computer to the RealNetworks download server. Once the software is installed, information about your hardware will not be stored on any server. Hardware information will also be sent for content passes, as described below. 2. Content passes: When obtaining passes for playback of content (such as a music or video file) in RealOne Player, information about your specific Media Commerce Software installation and hardware will be sent to the content provider for inclusion in the pass. This installation and hardware information will be scrambled a different way each time it is sent, usable only for inclusion in your pass. 3. Personal information: Media Commerce Software will not associate itself with any personal information in RealOne Player or anywhere else on your computer. RealNetworks' use of any personal information is governed by the RealNetworks privacy policy (http://www.realnetworks.com/company/privacy/index .html). RealNetworks does not share with third parties any personal information you provide in connection with our products without first obtaining your informed consent. 4. Financial information: Media Commerce Software does not interact with the process of secure financial transactions, e.g. credit card transactions. These transactions are handled by the website providing the content and are governed by that party's privacy policy. 5. Usage information: RealNetworks may keep statistics on the aggregated anonymous use of the Media Commerce Software. However, content partners using the Media Commerce Software will not provide RealNetworks with information on specific content for which an individual user obtains passes.....

  • Real spyware (Score:4, Informative)

    by BrookHarty ( 9119 ) on Wednesday July 24, 2002 @10:21PM (#3949193) Journal
    If your using windows, and you want to disable real spyware, this is how you do it. Ever wonder why real player gives you updates when you tell it not to run on startup?

    Registry Key Location:
    HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\W indows\Curr entVersion\Run
    Key Name: TkBellExe
    Value: C:\Program Files\Common Files\Real\Update_OB\evntsvc.exe -osboot

    delete evntsvc.exe, everything will still function fine.
  • I'm not going to rehash the several posts from before that explain in detail why Real sucks. It does. That's a fact.

    To think that it's a victory for OGG that another 'mainstreme' app supports it is assinine.

    All this means is, if you have to install Real for certian media, it will take over the file extension and it will take that much longer to load and that much more tracking of your online habits.

    We need to stop cheering whenever some big, sloppy crappy application takes a shine to an otherwise good format, and start enjoying the format as it stands.

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