Jedi Archives In Dublin Library? 351
bill_gates_jnr writes "When Attack of the clones came out many Dubliners thought that the Jedi Archives looked similar to a landmark in Dublin, the Long Room in Trinity College Dublin. The library administrator of TCD, Robin Adams has story written a letter to Lucasfilms suggesting the company should acknowledge a debt to the original architect Thomas Burgh. " I was in the Long Room a few years ago - it's a gorgeous room. But while we're acknowledge debts, perhaps Lucas can also acknowledge a more significant debt.
first post! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:first post! (Score:2)
Re:first post! (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if the producers said "yeah we got the idea from the long room" then there probably should be credit givin.
people need to stop thinking everyone is just ripping other people off. It happens, you can't expect everyone to be aware of everything out there. your going to get copies.
Re:first post! (Score:2)
Did xXx had credits thankink, Fleming and Danjaq? Will Solaris have a credit thanking the designers in 2001? Did Harry Potter thanked particular architects for inspirations of buildings. Did the Matrix thanked Giger, or the TNG producers for the virtual reality concept? At one point it gets ridiculous. Yes sometimes there are major rip off or homages. But many times they are acknowledged.
There are even worst cases. A few weeks ago there was an interview with Avi Arad, I think 60 Min. 2. Stan Lee is not getting a single penny from the film. Arad didn't see any problem with that and said Lee was OK and taken care off. Then they interviewed Stan Lee and he was very upset but too much of a class act to really say it.
There was also the interesting case of the sculture on The Devils Advocate which was extremely similar to the work or this sculptor. He sued a lot later when the movie was out and won. They had to digitally alter those shots, though it was too late as many DVDs had the original shots, kinda collector items.
Re:first post! (Score:3, Interesting)
They don't need to. This wouldn't have come up if a.) SW II wasn't a huge movie and b.) GL didn't have 3 cubic acres of money.
I'm pretty sure the credits in Independence Day didn't include the architect of the White House.
ben kenobi (Score:5, Funny)
Re:ben kenobi (Score:2, Offtopic)
(sorry, i just got a guinness keg at my house.
Re:ben kenobi (Score:5, Funny)
Debt? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Debt? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Debt? (Score:5, Funny)
Hm... or is that invention is the mother of necessity?
Damnit... ever since I became a Jedi Knight, all I can think about it duct tape.
It has a dark side and a light side, and it bind the universe together.
Hidden Fortress (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Hidden Fortress (Score:5, Insightful)
"Lucas is a plagiarist! He stole the plot to Star Wars from Kurosawa!"
"Kurosawa is a genius! He adapted the plot to Ran from King Lear!"
Re:Debt? (Score:5, Interesting)
Err why? It's not the overall plot that made SW popular, it was the characters and the visuals. That's why 4, 5, and 6 are so much better than 1, 2, and very probably 3.
SW was able to attract an audience that Dune couldn't. That's not a feat you accomplish with a good plot, sadly. It's a feat you accomplish by being just plain entertaining. That's why movies made in the 80's are considerably better than movies made today.
Re:Debt? (Score:2)
Lucas has, I believe, acknowledged both debts. Certainly to Hidden Fortress, though he does seem to claim that he borrowed not the "General saves the Princess" theme but rather the characters of R2D2 and C3PO from the two sidekicks in HF. Anyway, he's acknowledged HF's influence on his work. And the influence of Dune on the visuals has been long accepted, even if Lucas has never said anything.
Frankly, I don't see why anyone thinks any of these influences (including the Long Room) needs to be made much over. Do you really think that the Star Wars DVDs should have footnotes like Eliot's Waste Land, pointing the viewer to all of the allusions in the films? Isn't it better to let the viewers discover them for themselves?
Have you been smoking weed or something? (Score:2, Interesting)
IV, V and VI are NOT nearly as good from a visual point of view as I, II and very likely III are. Not even close.
The best way to describe them is to describe them like the bible.
I, II and III are like the old testament; pretty stunning visual effects, but rather lame story.
IV, V and VI are like the new testament; pretty stunning story, but rather lame visual effects.
Re:Have you been smoking weed or something? (Score:2)
In I, II, and likely III, the effects and the components that make up individual scenes are way better than anything in IV, V, and VI, but the overall visual effect in IV, V, and VI is better.
Re:Have you been smoking weed or something? (Score:3, Insightful)
Whoah I strongly disagree. With 4, 5, and 6, you knew what was going on. You knew who the good guys were and who the bad guys were. You knew who to feel sorrow for when the fell.
4, 5, and 6 may have had primitive effects, but the story telling was much better. In Episode II, people had no idea who the good guys were and who the bad guys were. It was clearer in Episode I, but they failed to make the audience emote. Nobody cared about the Gungans. Nobody cared about the Naboo pilots. Nobody was made to feel like they should care who wins.
The effects in the recent movies may be ahead technologically, but the lack of good storytelling with those effects ruined the movie's ability to make good use of those shots. Sorry, the VFX was better in the 4, 5, and 6 simply because the audience reacted to them.
Re:Debt? (Score:3, Interesting)
Come again?
Star Wars wasn't made in the 80s--and what made it great was the groundbreaking FX that held up the suspension of disbelief all good fantasys require, even with Lucas's script and plot.
Movies made very recently--most notably IMO, Spider-Man--beneft from even better FX, as well as (in many cases) better stories.
Some of the best movies ever made are being made as we chat on
As for Dune... it still strikes me as an agnostic science fiction writer trying to be spiritual, and failing. Star Wars does "mystic warrior" better by not even trying.
I think Dune is one of the works that shaped my beleif about what differentiates fantasy and scifi. In Fantasy, it doesn't matter what your stories aboubt as much as how you tell it. In scifi, it doesn't matter how crappy your writing is, as long as you've got some new ideas.
Re:Debt? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Debt? (Score:2)
On the other hand, the parallels between the mystical powers in Dune and the mystical powers of the Jedi are much more plausible. In fact, the site misses one: both Jedi and various factions in the world of Dune have the ability to see into the future.
Re:Debt? (Score:2)
Choice of a desert planet. That in itself is not too distinguishing. It naturally leads to 'sandcrawlers' (a big machine that crawls on the sand) and trying to get water ('cause its a desert). People in cauls and covered heads makes sense, as that's what many desert nomads are depicted as doing. You may find in the desert that even when a person's face is shadowed, their eyes and mouth may appear lighted because of the interesting reflective properties of sand.
Biblical names, telling the future (seers or prophets), manipulation of objects or creatures (a bit of a stretch, but moving mountains, Daniel in the lions den, and others) are all biblical stories, around LONG before either of these works.
About the only thing remotely original that may have been taken from the other is a character finding out a 'bad guy' is their father, but that, too, is not a historical novelty.
frob.
Re:Debt? (Score:2, Insightful)
An ign reviewer [ign.com] (click-thru ad) interprets Herbert's phrase as In other words, anyone in the early 80s making a movie about a psionically-gifted young man on a desert planet overthrowing a corrupt interstellar empire had better come up with a different take, something a little more stylistic, a little more Blade Runner-ish, than Lucas' powerhouse adventure story of intergalactic derring-do.
The list of coincidences linked in my previous post mentioned spice miners and I also noticed in the AOTC a reference to 'spice miners' on a moon of Naboo that could possibly be attempting to assassinate Amedala. It seems to me that it would take a great leap of imagination to come up with the concept of spices that are mined. I guess a more positive viewpoint would be that Lucas is just using the ideas that are out there and is just paying homage to Dune.
Re:Debt? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Debt? (Score:2, Informative)
1.) In Dune, the hero is names after a biblical person, Paul, while in Star Wars the hero is named after a biblical person too (Luke). Both of which rise from the the desert to topple the evil empire.
2.) In Dune, the chief enemy of the hero turnes out to be the heros grandfather. In SW, the chief enemy of the hero turns out to be the hero's father. (And if you take it even farther, the emperor in Dune is also related to Paul, as Duke Leto and the emperor were cousins).
3.) In Dune, there is a monolopy on space transit and shipping by the Spacing Guild. In SW (EP1-2) there is a monolopy on space transit and shipping by the Trade Federation.
4.) In Dune, you have a warrior group who have supernatural-esque powers (The Bene Gesserit). In SW you have a warrior group who have supernatural powers (The Jedi).
5.) In Dune, the Bene Gesserit have mind control abilities (The Voice). In SW the Jedi have mind control powers (The Jedi Mind trick). Both of which can be negated by a strong mind.
6.) In Dune, the galaxy is made up of an Empire with a demotractic power base (The Lansraad (Spelling?)). In SW you have an Empire with a democratic power base (The Senate).
7.) In Dune, you have both energy weapon based warfare, and melee (swords and knives) combat. Most combat takes place with energy or projectile weaponry, but key battles are fought melee. In SW, you have both energy based combat, and melee combat (swords). Most combat takes place with energy weapons, while key battles are fought melee.
I could go on but it would probably be wasted. There are other fun facts though, like early drafts of the SW script referring to the most precious commodity in the Empire being, *gasp* spice, and the Jedi fighting technigue being known as the Jedi Bendu (while the Bene Gesserit technique is called the Prana Bindu).
To give proper credit some of the above material is from: http://www.jitterbug.com/origins/dune.html [jitterbug.com]
Re:Debt? (Score:2, Funny)
If you have the time and will, you can draw similarities between the Spice Girls movie and Dune.
*gasp* they are both about Spice. woooo....
Re:Debt? (Score:3, Insightful)
That is really reaching... That bible thing has dominated the culture of western civilization for over a thousand years... the names of biblical figures permeates our literature.
6.) In Dune, the galaxy is made up of an Empire with a demotractic power base (The Lansraad (Spelling?)). In SW you have an Empire with a democratic power base (The Senate).
That is a natural extensions of an existing political systems which is found in generous quantities in western civilizations.
7.) In Dune, you have both energy weapon based warfare, and melee (swords and knives) combat. Most combat takes place with energy or projectile weaponry, but key battles are fought melee. In SW, you have both energy based combat, and melee combat (swords). Most combat takes place with energy weapons, while key battles are fought melee.
I thought in dune not a lot of fighting took place with energy weapons because Laser + Shield = Nuke. Fights in star wars ALWAYS involved energy weapons, except those between Jedi/Sith.
Re:Debt? (Score:3, Insightful)
Dune has a weight to it that Star Wars has never had - and never pretended to have. Lucas has been up front from the beginning that Star Wars is a spaghetti western in Space. A B-grade space opera. Dune is sci-fi from its very foundations - it concerns itself with much larger questions about society, religion, etc.
Star Wars is for the heart - it is the equivalent of donning your favorite sweatshirt, wrapping yourself in the softest blanket, nestling a mug of hot cocoa between your hands, and throwing Toy Story 2 or Dead Poets Society in the DVD player. Dune is for the head - it is the all-nighter you put in while finishing up your paper on the economic situation in post-Soviet Russia, studying for your final on Computability and Unsolvability, and preparing to defend your thesis on the effects of the Gnostic movement on the structure of the 2nd Century Church and its continued ripples through history. It is heady.
For more reasons that this is stupid:
Re:Debt? (Score:2)
Re:Debt? (Score:2)
Also the large worm like skeleton in the background as c3p0 gets out of the escape pod. Or the Sarnak(sp?) pit, could be interpreted as a worm ala Dune.
If I remember correctly, there's a number of other references. I was always surprised that more people hadn't noticed them.
Re:Debt? (Score:4, Interesting)
The claim that Lucas took ideas from Asimov makes more sense, and that hardly makes sense at all. Then again, there are people who say Niven should sue Bungie, so you can never tell.
Re:Debt? (Score:2)
Re:Debt? (Score:2)
for lucas, he shouldn't have to give credit based on similarities
Re:Debt? (Score:3, Insightful)
Steven Spielberg is considered by many to be one of the greatest directors of all time. Jaws, Close Encounters, Poltergeist...these all won him respect and acclaim, but it was the Indiana Jones series that boosted him to his present status. Raiders was a mercurial moment for him; he even says so in many of his interviews. But what does this have to do with George Lucas? Lucas wrote the Indiana Jones story and gave it to Spielburg.
Nobody remembers that...when they hear Raiders they automatically think Spielburg. The fact is that we owe a great debt to George Lucas for creating some incredibly rich fantasies for us. He wrote the Star Wars series, and the concept of Indiana Jones. The point is, for a few years there Lucas was an absolute genius at fusing together the very best of a story genre...and he deserves a great deal of respect for that.
I'll be the first to agree that the ghost has left him however, and that his best days are long gone. Some people only get 15 minutes, George had at least 5 good years. Not too shabby.
Re:Debt? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmm - chosen people living in the desert, waiting to be freed by a chosen one... where have I heard that before?
Oh yeah - Exodus!
Re:Debt? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Debt? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Debt? (Score:2, Insightful)
Bastard, indeed.
bunch of aliens getting drunk... (Score:2)
they may just be onto something!
Long Room.. (Score:5, Funny)
The Long Room seems much longer if you make a pitstop at another Irish landmark [guinness.ie] first.
Re:Long Room.. (Score:2)
OTOH the Book of Kells (and other manuscripts) and the Long Room with its rare books are interesting and very impressive if you like old books. If you don't then its probably boring as hell. Trinity at least has the advantage of being in the centre of Dublin at the end of Grafton Street so you don't have to spend much time or money getting there.
Acknowledging More Significant Debts (Score:4, Interesting)
Debt Acknowledgement (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Debt Acknowledgement (Score:2)
"My daughter likes boy bands. Let's put one in the movie."
"The geeks hate boy bands. Let's take them back out."
"The otaku really like Boba Fett. If I rewrite the script around him, nobody will have to know how lame the original script was. Also, Boba Fett will distract everyone from how lame the new, Fett-centric script is."
"Kung Fu movies are really popular. Let's put more Kung Fu in the movie."
"I've dedicated most of my career to building a special effects empire. Let's throw it at everything we do."
Acknowledgements? As far as I can tell, this guy owes us all apologies.
Re:Debt Acknowledgement (Score:2)
I agree with this. (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of films have a huge list at the end of the film thanking everyone and his brother for helping out. I think that is great. A lot of these individuals, groups, and organizations get paid nada for helping and it's the least that you can do to put their name in the credits. I think this is no different. The room was inspiration and the appropriate people (the architect in this case I believe) should be properly achknowledged and thanked.
Re:I agree with this. (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't know how we would get access to it (it's not out on DVD yet, is it?), but I'm sure someone out there can find it.
Re:I agree with this. (Score:2)
Does anybody else get annoyed by "Who da man? Yoda man"?
Ah, the force is strong in this webpage... (Score:3, Funny)
debt? (Score:5, Funny)
Or was it really meant to be a link to Slashdot itself? Yes, I'm sure that George Lucas, in his long list of debtors, includes Slashdot [slashdot.org].
Re:debt? (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, he's paid that particular debt in full [usc.edu].
Re:debt? (Score:2)
Wow. The things you can learn on /.
frob.
considering... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's just artistic license, particularly when you consider that even the architecture of the Dublin Library is derived from previous architecture.
Re:considering... (Score:5, Funny)
Lucas? Are you serious? (Score:5, Funny)
You mean the guy that created the noisiest light in the universe? Light that reacts like a solid when it runs into more light? Light that "stops" to stay in the shot during saber duels?
The George Lucas that created most sound conductive vacumes of any universe? That George Lucas? The one with the banking spacecraft EVERYWHERE?
He does not even nod to his debt to physics, much less any pesky library!
BTW, I don't get the "Dune" story link at that Hemos tacked onto the end, but I am even less of a fan of that one.
Re:Lucas? Are you serious? (Score:5, Funny)
it was "Star Wars", not "Physics Wars";
"The Empire Strikes Back", not "Professor Feynman Kicks Your Ass"; and
"Return of the Jedi", not "Rejection of the Thesis"
Silence is not entertaining. Except perhaps when you are producing it.
don't remind me.... (Score:3, Funny)
i can honestly say, with conviction, "worst...movie...ever!"....
nbfn
Re:Lucas? Are you serious? (Score:5, Funny)
The George Lucas that created most sound conductive vacumes of any universe? That George Lucas? The one with the banking spacecraft EVERYWHERE?"
Next I suppose you are going to tell me he filmed them out of order too, right? Oh...you mean he did? Damn you Lucas! Damn you to hell!
Official reply from Lucasfilms (Score:5, Funny)
Disturbance in the force (Score:3, Funny)
Like a million hits on a web server that cried out in pain and was suddenly silenced.
What about... (Score:5, Funny)
IMAX Episode 2 (Score:3, Informative)
Cut were several love scenes, most of Jar-Jar's dialog, and Jimmy Smits' entire role, save for a cameo at the very end of the movie. It's almost like Lucas did a Phantom Edit all by his lonesome, although we really know it was to fit into IMAX's scheduling.
Trinity Library (Score:4, Interesting)
For bibliophiles, this room is right up there with the old reading room at the British Museum or the Library of Congress' reading room.
Re:Trinity Library (Score:2, Funny)
Man, I was born too early. When I was growing up, I was just a bookworm.
pictures (Score:5, Informative)
Talk about the quitessential library. I bet it's the most photographed library in Ireland [colophon.org].
Dune (Score:2, Interesting)
Although reading the Dune thread that is linked, I noted that the slashdot crowd must have been smoking something damned fine when they were watching the mini-series/reading the book. It's really too bad I can't comment on it...
Previous article (Score:4, Informative)
Lucas can also acknowledge a more significant deb (Score:2, Funny)
This is the same story Lucas use in Episode IV.
Re: Lucas can also acknowledge a more significant (Score:3, Funny)
More links... (Score:4, Informative)
Nothing new there (Score:5, Funny)
Forget that (Score:3, Funny)
Image. [solarviews.com]
Re:Forget that (Score:3, Funny)
Also demanding credit... (Score:4, Funny)
On the other hand (Score:5, Interesting)
significant similarities. (Score:3, Funny)
the hardcore fans are all geeks!
Hardly unique (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthermore, what kind of credit is expected? Few sets, digital or physical, are created ab novo. Need there be an attribution for every filmed space that was inspired by another? Should this be limited to notable public buildings or to parks too? Should I hound the film major who set a scene in what looks remarkably like my old apartment's living room in which he once got drunk?
Did Lucas Film "rip off" that library? Who knows. Certainly enough other library rooms look like it, need they all get plaques? Indeed I used to live down the street from a former fire station in Boston that was notable for having its hose-drying tower built like a Venetian campanile. When that was built it started a trend of lots of other fire stations being built soon thereafter looking similar - should all of them put up plaques attributing their inspiration?
Extending "Trade Dress" to spaces - Feh.
Looks like a publicity stunt to me... (Score:4, Interesting)
-dB
The Farce... (Score:4, Funny)
We did not clone the Dublin Libraries for the movie, and no we do not have overdue late charges on "Scottish Clans and Tartans".
other architecture, too. (Score:5, Informative)
The stately architecture and vaulted ceilings of the Jedi Archives Room were inspired by a variety of real-world libraries, including the Vatican and those found in old English estates. A bare minimum of the set was constructed -- only Kenobi's immediate work area and several busts were constructed. The majority of the scenery -- the rows and rows of holobooks and high ceilings -- were realized as miniatures.
so if any inspiration came from dublin, it wasn't in full...
Look at the Vatican Library (Score:2)
Is it a problem when... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, if I duplicate your stuff almost exactly and hurt your business, then copyright should kick in. However:
- Set designers need to build sets based on existing architecture.
- Cartoonists should be able to draw an eyeball even if they saw other green eyeballs in the 60's. [back on that discussion, Blizzard could say both groups stole it from their Warcraft 2 'Eye of Kilrog']
- Musicians should be able to use any set of notes, not worrying that a particular set of 4 notes will get them in copyright issues.
- Any other creative art (programming, artistry, city planning, construction, &c.) requires the use of elements that are used elsewhere, or that may have been discovered by someone else for the same purpose.
Or in summary: All great works are based upon the works that came before, and while credit is always appropriate, unless there is some actual harm done in the use, there should never be talks of lawsuits or licensing or copyright violations.Frob.
Re:Is it a problem when... (Score:2)
(I had this discussion ages ago, all the movies that everyone said were great had were derived from books).
Feel the Force, Mofo! (Score:2)
That'll teach you for messing with GL.
Methinks some librarian is looking for increased banner revenue...
Can I get a "who cares?" (Score:2)
Seriously, who gives a flying rat's ass? So the library looks like a library somewhere else. Gee, I bet that never happened before. Maybe I'm just not articulate enough, but I have been in many libraries with many strikingly similar layouts. It could have something to do with the way books are organized in principle, who knows... and again, who cares?
Similarity? (Score:2, Insightful)
The real one is wooden, old fashioned and has a beautifully barrel-vaulted ceiling. The fictional one contains strangly glowing book-like cubes, which might be data-banks. And even then it doesn't contain "all the knowledge accumulated by a ancient order" since you can (and have to) ask the secretary if the obviously not-so-mighty database fails to come up with an answer to your request.
There shouldn't be too much fuss about credits. The fictional version is no where near as impressive as stumbling into the fantastic Long Room after having just glimpsed the famous Book of Kells.
Jan
Let me get this straight... (Score:2, Funny)
And the article is brought to us by : bill_gates_jnr
I can predict next weeks article: State of Utah demands Lucas credit God for use of "desert motif" in Tatooine scenes of Star Wars.
The force... (Score:2, Funny)
TM
We have a lot of buildings in Europe... (Score:5, Funny)
Ewoks in Central America (Score:3, Interesting)
Trying.... (Score:5, Funny)
Go ahead, mod me down. That alone will be far more interesting than this wee SlashBit.
is anything really original? (Score:2, Insightful)
what about plaza de espana? (Score:2, Informative)
Anyways, in one scene (on Naboo?), there is a building that is very clearly inspired from the Plaza de Espana, in Sevilla, Spain [google.com].
It would be nice to include credit for the inspirations, if only to acknowledge that human creativity can positively benefit from past creations. Although it is definately not a legal requirement.
Creativity and innovation always build on the past (Score:5, Interesting)
Lawrence Lessig, in his keynote presentation made on July 24, 2002 at oscon [oreillynet.com], repeatedly made the four point argument:
He made this argument while arguing against lengthy copyright terms, but I think the first point applies here: any creative work, such as Star Wars, builds upon the library of existing human work. It's nearly pointless to try to credit every single contributor to that existing compendium of knowledge. I guess it's a judgement call of when you should give credit, but this one feels ok to leave out, to me. (And the actual library will be a trivia factoid for years to come, this way.)
The reason I personally disliked that scene in Episode 2 is that it took place in a physical library at all, instead of being a four second web search. Kenobi doesn't Yahoo, apparently.
Who gives a shit? (Score:2)
Other similar rooms: (Score:3, Informative)
The Cleveland Arcade [prodigy.net]
Etc. I'm sure there are many more, but this is not in any way a unique architectural style that was used.
Re:j0 m0mma (Score:5, Funny)
good job slashdotting the picture of the Long Room! Ireland's getting SLAMMED !!
Now that Ireland has no more net access, perhaps they could do something different, such as go for drinks or have a large fight at a soccer game.
Re:'The Empire Strikes Back' was the best one (Score:2)
(-3 Flamebait, -5 Troll, +7 Insightful)
No lawsuit (Score:2)
Re:No lawsuit (Score:2)