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Fuel Cell Powered Backup System 238

Posted by chrisd from the wheel-one-on-over dept.
bassrat writes "Coleman just announced the world's first backup power system with Fuel Cells. Like any new technology, it's a bit pricey at $6K but the rest of the specs are pretty decent. Info at http://www.airgen.com/"
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Fuel Cell Powered Backup System More

Fuel Cell Powered Backup System

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  • This is just hilarious... (Score:5, Funny)

    by pVoid ( 607584 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @02:31AM (#4816959)
    Imagine... A machine that inhales oxygen, combines with hydrogen and exhales electricity.

    While it sounds like science fiction, fuel cell technology is now readily available to industrial users!

    I mean, first thing I think of when I hear "imagine a machine that inhales oxygen" is piles of passed out sysadmins in the server room floor.

  • Look at the geek factor though! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Cali Thalen ( 627449 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @02:32AM (#4816962) Homepage
    I mean...what true geek woudn't feel proud to have a backup system in his house with a real potential to spontaneously explode (even if the chances are nil).

    • a real potential to spontaneously explode (even if the chances are nil).

      Real potentials must be different in your land.

    • Re:Look at the geek factor though! (Score:5, Informative)

      by JianTian13 ( 525365 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @04:16AM (#4817223) Homepage
      Uhh, in all seriousness, there's virtually no chance of an explosion.

      Fuel cells do generate heat, but if that heat gets anywhere near ignition, the membrane'll burn out long before there's a spark (note: that's PEM fuel cells; I'll admit I didn't read the article, so I dunno what kind of cell they're using)

      As to the hydrogen supply, well, H2 tanks are incredibly strongly build things, and rigorously checked for leaks. Number two, leaking H2 shoots up through the atmosphere way too fast to provide a boom. That said, if you're dumb enough to smoke around one of these tanks, you deserve what you get....
      • The Coleman Product is based on low-temperature PEM fuel cells from Ballard Power Systems [ballard.com]. BTW you can pick up shared of Ballard pretty cheaply these days, NASDAQ symbol BLDP. Essentially all car manufacturers except GM and Toyota rely on Ballard for fuel cells to power their fuel cell cars. Ford and DaimlerChrysler own about 15% and 19% of Ballard, respectively.

        As for the perceived dangers of hydrogen, it should be noted that hydrogen is much less of a risk than natural gas, because it disperses into the atmosphere much more quickly due to the low density of hyrdogen gas.
    • Cute, but did you bother looking at the site? There are two fuel options... pressurized hydrogen tanks for industrial use (with some potential for explosion), and low-pressure hydride cannisters for small-scale and residential use. It's pretty much impossible to coax an explosion out of hydrogen entrained in a hydride.

  • The more I read, the more I'm scared... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pVoid ( 607584 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @02:35AM (#4816969)
    Creates electricity as long as hydrogen fuel is provided

    Do I really want to be carrying around pressurized containers of hydrogen near me? Near my servers? in my house?

    • I think that your fears are not firmly grounded in reality. Sure, new technology brings with it new risks in many cases. For example, generating energy through fission carries the risk that one of our many reactors will somehow start a terrible chain reaction that will destroy the power plant and some area around it, but that hasn't happened yet. It is my understanding that the few incidents that have occured ( 3 Mile Island ) have been very minor. Would you avoid SCUBA-diving because there is the very slight risk that maybe your breathing device and your diving partner's will fail at exactly the same time with 70 feet of water over your head?

      One thing is for sure though: You may take comfort in the fact that there are hordes of lawyers looking to represent you or anyone else in court to sue Coleman for making this stuff if it blows up and hurts you. Why? because they get a cut of it. Imagine if you could have a 'cut' of that 2.6*USdollars*10^10 from that tobacco settlement.

      • I think that your fears are not firmly grounded in reality.

        Ok, do you realize how much more dangerous than a simple propane tank a hydrogen tank is? I'm lazy, and it's late at night, so I won't search and caugh you up numbers, but Hyrdrogen is one of the elements with the highest combustion energy release to weight ratio...

        In fact, one of the reasons why hydrogen powered engines weren't a reality fifty years ago is because of how extremely hot they get.

        Now, I wouldn't worry about having my scuba gear fail. I don't worry about my propane tanks in a kitchen... But I am still pretty damn careful about propane.

        Hydrogen. No sir... that's a bit too much for me to handle.

        • Ok, do you realize how much more dangerous than a simple propane tank a hydrogen tank is?

          The danger of hydrogen vs hydrocarbon fuels is a hotly debated issue. Don't write it off as fact.

          In fact, the Rocky Mountain Institute (who has been playing with Fuel Cells for more then a decade), says that Hydrogen is about as dangerous as Propane [rmi.org].

          Specifically:


          Tests conducted at the College of Engineering at Miami University aimed to find this out. 3000 cubic feet per minute of hydrogen was leaked from a vehicle tank and set alight. Over the course of the burn, temperature sensors inside the vehicle did not measure a raise of more than 1 or 2 degrees centigrade anywhere inside the vehicle. The temperature of the surface of the outside of the vehicle did not climb above that of a vehicle sitting in the sunshine!

          This might sound unintuitive. But when a carbon-based fuel like gasoline burns, glowing hot soot particles transfer the heat to its surroundings--potentially including you. But because hydrogen contains no carbon, it burns cleanly without a residue of hot soot, producing little radiant energy. This means that a victim would have to be practically in the flame in order to get burned.
          • The flame is invisible so if the tank is on fire, it may not be obvious. When they were setting up for the first Hydrogen bomb test, they had to vent some hydrogen for some reason or another. They lit the escaping gas and all they could sense was the noise from the flame - they couldn't see it. Unfortunately, neither could the few seagulls who flew directly over the flame and fell dead at the physcist's feet. I hear roasted seagull isn't very tasty.
        • Ok, do you realize how much more dangerous than a simple propane tank a hydrogen tank is?

          Actually, depending on your situation, hydrogen may be quite a bit less dangerous than propane. You see, propane being quite heavy, if it leaks will form a layer on your floor. If you have a basement, it will all settle there. It will remain there just waiting for the right spark to come along, at which time *BOOM*. Hydrogen on the other hand is much lighter and a master escape artist. If you have a very slow hydrogen leak, it will simply rise and dissipate and find its way out. Even if you happen to ignite it right where it is leaking, you will most likely get just a quick *pop* and then it will be done, since the pure hydrogen environment inside the tank/lines has no oxidizer, and thus will not burn. Knowing what I know of propane and hydrogen, for any indoor application I would take hydrogen in a heartbeat over propane.
      • fission carries the risk that one of our many reactors will somehow start a terrible chain reaction that will destroy the power plant and some area around it, but that hasn't happened yet. It is my understanding that the few incidents that have occured ( 3 Mile Island ) have been very minor.

        One word. "Chernobyl"

        Ok, so it was a bad analogy. I'd be squeamish about the cylinders of H2, but the hydride cannisters are probably fairly safe.

    • Re:The more I read, the more I'm scared... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by pherthyl ( 445706 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @02:50AM (#4817031)
      What is with everyone's paranoia about hydrogen?

      Its perfectly safe.. Think propane tanks and for how many different things they are safely used. This is the same thing.

      "but.. but.. what about the hindenberg (sp?)? I mean that is totally unrelated to pressurized hydrogen containers but it blew up!"

      complete and utterly unfounded fears like this are what is hindering the adoption of cool technologies like fuel cells.

      • Re:The more I read, the more I'm scared... (Score:5, Informative)

        by Martin Blank ( 154261 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @03:04AM (#4817075) Homepage Journal
        The Hindenberg's hydrogen burned off in seconds. The big problem was the paint that used powdered aluminum, which was also electrically conductive. Add one significant spark (possible lightning) plus powdered aluminum (main volatile ingredient in the shuttle's solid-fuel boosters) and you get a big fire.

        So yes, the hydrogen fears are minor. Had the Hindenberg been painted in a normal color, and not shiny silver, airships may have survived for some time to come.
        • The soviets were using blimps for mail and supply deleveries as recently as 10 years ago, and might be still.

          It's really an attractive tech for many reasons, but untouchable because of the Hindenberg.

        • Additionally, the dope used on the Hindenburg's fabric was highly flammable. Hydrogen or helium - it'd have still burned fiercely.
      • Well, whether propane tanks are "safe" is debatable: if their valves get damaged, if they get dropped, if there is a fire, they can certainly cause lots of problems. Any kind of flammable gas, liquid, or solid is a potential hazard to some degree.

    • Hydrogen from water! (Score:5, Funny)

      by jolshefsky ( 560014 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @08:05AM (#4817644) Homepage
      Best of all you can get hydrogen for free from ordinary water. See this science kit [sciencekit.com]!

      All you need to do is plug it in and you're all set. In fact, you could even plug it into the output of the device and get it to run forever*.

      * Void where prohibited by thermodynamic laws.

    • Do I really want to be carrying around pressurized containers of hydrogen near me?

      Do you ever barbecue? Propane or charcoal? Propane is a pressurized container of explosive gas, but nobody gets too bent out of shape having it around. It's actually arguably more dangerous than hydrogen, since it's denser than air. A small propane leak will tend to pool in the low spots in a building until it builds to a dangerous level. Hydrogen tends to rise, and the small size of its molecules permits it to diffuse much faster, too.

      Many homes have natural gas lines, running to the furnace, the water heater, the kitchen stove. Again, few people are concerned. I do lab work, and I've usually got a couple of cylinders of methane next to my desk. I don't panic at the thought of going to work. Well, not for that reason, anyway.

      Hydrogen gas cylinders are fairly harmless, as long as you have a little bit of respect for them. Don't do anything to a cylinder that you wouldn't want done to your server, and you should be fine. (ie, don't tie it to the back of your car and drag it down the street. Don't knock it over too often. Don't expose it to intense heat or open flame.)

      Also, there's nothing that prevents you from putting the tank outside and running a hose through the wall to wherever you need gas.

  • Availaibility of fuel (Score:4, Interesting)

    by El Pollo Loco ( 562236 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @02:36AM (#4816978)
    Seems great, a quiet generator. I used to set up carnival equipment, and this would be great to have. But how will I get the hydrogen? For industrial use, as the site says, there are only 3 places in the city I live in to get the fuel. And it's a big city! Plus, for residential and commercial use, it'll be pretty difficult to get a hold of the H. T he site says it will soon be availaible in exchangeable canisters, but I don't think it'll catch on until it's availble at grocery stores, like propane.
    • By gently heating a hydrocarbon fuel with a catylist, you can get nydrogen gas out of it. If this technology matures you could end up with a portable powerplant that runs on pure H2 gas and a wide variety of other fuels.

      check out the info on direct methanol fuel cells [h2fc.com]
    • Praxair will deliver the cylinders of Hydrogen, at your request. They'll pick up empty tanks too.
      In fact, go to their website, praxair.com, and you can place your orders online.

  • If it ran off methane... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Wampus Aurelius ( 627669 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @02:41AM (#4817002)
    ...you would have an unlimited supply of fuel. Just make sure to bring along a good supply of beans for your camping trip, and you're set!
    • You don't need beans, you need cows. The cows produce the methane, which would generate electricity and power the servers. And then since you have so many cows, start a dairy business on the side. Google Milk anyone?
  • from their "benefits" page:

    > Quiet Very low noise operation

    so is a battery backup - Okay maybe it's a little more noisy but I have been next to huge APCs and they are completely drowned out by server hum and cannot be heard anyhow. My personal UPS does not make a single sound.

    > Air Pollution-Free Operation By-products are heat and water vapor Renewable Energy Powered by two of the most abundant elements -- hydrogen and oxygen -- in the universe

    No arguing, but soooo? (more later)

    > Clean Energy Perfect sine wave electricity to protect sensitive electronics

    okay, so is a UPS, again.

    > Indoor Use No carbon monoxide emissions

    I am tired of typing "okay so is UPS"

    > Non-Stop Power Continuous electricity generated as long as hydrogen is supplied.

    I should hope!

    now onto the blab:

    Yes yes I know for a lot of trouble, this makes a good portable generator (maybe). But they are saying this will be a good power-backup too? my ass.

    1) UPS has battery that runs out. This has hydrogen that runs out. same deal.

    2) UPS can be re-charged when the power comes back - this I have to buy more hydrogen tube thingys

    3) I am guessing that this uses the ROOM oxygen? like, the one we need to breath with?

    4) where exactly is the water (byproduct) going? I remember that fuel cells has a high temperature - I assume vapor? as in bumping up the humidity to some insane levels in the server room? Even if it does not - I would think there need to be new pipework / whatever to carry away the condensation.

    Let's not forget that it probabbly cost a bundle starting off / maintain too.

    Now with that vented - it would be pretty cool to get one to replace one of those noisy generators for a motor-home or something - but THEN, it's designed for indoor use (i think)? wtf? and i have to either carry AirGen cylinders (low pressure) (read: does not last long), or hydrogen cylinders (read: really dangerous) around instead of just getting some gasoline at the station?

    erm... I will stick with a portable generator (for power generation) and UPS (for backup) thank you.
    • 1) UPS has battery that runs out. This has hydrogen that runs out. same deal.?

      Not same deal. You can keep popping out any buying more hydrogen cannisters and go indefinately with the fuel cell. Your UPS will buy you some time (enough time to shut down your networks safely) but not to continue operations. Essentially it is generator and UPS all rolled into one.

      In obtaining more hydrogen, you can either buy it or you can generate it yourself (though electrolysis - via solar or mains). You can see the latest fuel cell stories at Future Energies [futureenergies.com].

      Phillip.
      • they should bundle it with a mains powered hydrogen compressor, so you can store hydrogen safely in your own canisters when times are good.

        I'm betting that running hydrogen through a normal air compressor would be asking for trouble.

  • I beg to differ... (Score:5, Funny)

    by 3-State Bit ( 225583 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @02:48AM (#4817026)
    Like any new technology, it's a bit pricey at $6K.

    Bullshit! I can think of lots of new technologies that would be a bargain at twice the price!

    (rimshot)

    Wait! Don't leave! I have more...

    A-hem.

    From the page [airgen.com]:

    "Imagine... A machine that inhales oxygen, combines with hydrogen and exhales electricity.

    While it sounds like science fiction, fuel cell technology is now readily available to industrial users!"

    Okay, now let me try:
    Imagine... A machine that inhales oxygen, combines with [anything flammable] and exhales [any carrier of work].

    Sound like science fiction? Think again, this so-called "combustion engine" will revolutionize...

    wait! wait!

    Don't leave.

    I have more.

    Okay, watch:

    How do you back up data during a power outage?

    Put it in reverse! {rimshot}
    (i.e. have your backup solution produce energy instead of using it, thereby turning back the direction of time in much the same way that backing up the wrong way down a one-way road --

    Wait! Don't leave!

    I have a parenthesis to close:
    )

    There.
    Uhm, yeah.

    Seriously though.
    And here I put on my insightful hat.

    This could be great in hospitals!

  • This is sad (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 05, 2002 @02:52AM (#4817037)
    All these people whining about how explosive hydrogen is etc etc. Look folks, you have a tankful of gasoline riding under your arse in your car, you have a natural gas furnace, stove, and water heater, and use a propane barbeque. These things are more of a threat than a little hydrogen. Are we stuck at the Hindenburg? Remember that was caused by the flammable hull of the ship, not the hydrogen itself!

    As for these folks saying "oh no, it's using all the oxygen" - I sure hope your rooms aren't airtight, they shouldn't be - oxygen will flow in to replace that being used with proper ventilation. Use your brains people.
    • Have you ever seen the effects of a high pressure cylinder failing? I have, and the holes (plural!) through the walls that got in its way were not amusing.

      I saw that in a document storage facility - the paperwork was ok but scattered everywhere, would hate to see the same scene but placed in a server room!

      • Re:This is sad (Score:3, Informative)

        by Idarubicin ( 579475 )
        I've seen the effects of a low pressure cylinder failing. To celebrate Hallowe'en, I got together with a group of friends, some pumpkins, and a dewar of liquid nitrogen. (Obviously, we're chemists...)

        Fill a half-litre plastic pop bottle to about the halfway point with LN2. Place inside a pumpkin. Run.

        When enough nitrogen boils off the bottle will rupture, detonating the pumpkin. It's quite a sight. We had pumpkin shards up to about 200 ft away. Warning to the bold: I have left at least one important detail out of my instructions. Only qualified individuals should attempt such a stunt. I assume no responsibility for their actions.

        That said, you could always put the hydrogen cylinder outside and just run a hose to the UPS. Really, you could put the whole UPS outside, and just run a cable to the server room. Catastrophic failures of gas cylinders are extremely rare, unless the cylinders are abused. I've mentioned on a different thread: treat the tank like a server and it will be fine. (No open flames, no intense heat, no massive blunt trauma.)

  • Duplicate story? (Score:2, Informative)

    by Scooby Snacks ( 516469 )
    Isn't this story [slashdot.org] a dupe [slashdot.org]?

    At least it's been several months. ;-)

  • using the websites own calculations it would cost $30.00 for 6hrs @1,000 watt output continous.

    Thats a fare bit of power but my 400watt inverter and $100.00 deepcycle battery keeps my server up for 10hrs .(around 150watts)

    • How much do you pay for the recharge? If it's more than $5/hr the hydrogen fuel cell is the better deal. Other wise stick to your toxically polluting lead acid fuel cell.

      Notice I don't include the initial costs... now the question there is how long will your battery last until you have to replace it? Luckily it's just a UPS device and doesn't get used that often. I know I have to get a new car battery about once every 3 years. Even though this Coleman only has a 1 year warranty I bet it will last a bit longer than 3 years if taken care of.

      6k is still too pricey for me though so I'll wait until next year when they start dropping a better more efficient version for 4k or maybe the year after for 1k. Maybe competition will kick in sooner and drop the price earlier, who knows?

  • FedEx (Score:4, Funny)

    by CySurflex ( 564206 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @03:05AM (#4817078)
    In a move aimed at stifflings UPS's competitive advantage in the backup power supply market, FedEx invested $2B in this new Fuel Cell technology.
  • Lead acid batteries give off a certain amount of hydrogen when they are charged. So modify your big UPS so that it gets fast charged, then collect the hydrogen and use it to power the Ballard box. So long as the UPS is much bigger than the fuel cell, it should work

    Did I miss something there?

  • Three things... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by carlmenezes ( 204187 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @03:16AM (#4817104) Homepage
    First...
    The capacity of the generator is only 1000 watts! What the hell? that's not more than 3 PCs! You get some really quiet generators that would do the same for a lot less.

    Second...
    What's the deal with a 1 year warranty? Surely, a backup system is meant to be reliable. You'd think the company would atleast put a 5 year warranty on this thing.

    Third...
    "Provides electricity as long as hydrogen fuel is provided". First, hydrogen is flammable. Second, they don't seem to mention what the consumption rate of this generator is...which leads me to the third point - hydrogen fuel will be quite expensive.

    Looks a little iffy if you ask me.
    • "What the hell? that's not more than 3 PCs!"

      Didn't you know? This thing is for Macs!!!! It's obviously priced for the Apple customer demographic and since Macs only use about a third the energy PCs do it will provide support for 3 times as many! ;-p

    • The rating of your PC's PSU is *not* the wattage that the PC will normally draw. Even with a CRT monitor, I doubt a normal PC+monitor will draw 333 watts under normal workloads.

  • It's not you, it's.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by DrewCapu ( 132301 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @03:16AM (#4817105) Journal
    Wife: Oh honey, you take my breath away.
    Husband: No, dear. It's our new Fuel Cell Powered Backup System. I think we just had a blackout.

  • Inhales oxygen... exhales heat and water vapor? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by foniksonik ( 573572 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @03:23AM (#4817125) Homepage Journal
    Lots of posts rant about oxygen deprivation... if you're sitting in an air tight room somehow you're probably not going to be worried that there is one more oxygen breather, seriously, ever heard of ventillation?

    I'd be more concerned about how much additional heat and humididty this thing is producing and whether the server room tech had accounted for it before leaving for the weekend.

  • H20 , NOT H2 (Score:3, Funny)

    by katalyst ( 618126 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @03:27AM (#4817135) Homepage
    This idea has been floating around for some time, and it is nice to see it being actually implemented. (Even GM's Hy-wire car uses fuel cells). IMO, this technology hasn't matured as yet, and I will NOT consider it matured till the day these cells will run on WATER itself and NOT hydrogen. More than 70% of the world is covered by water, can you imagine how much energy we have, potentially ???
    I must admit though , I can imagine nomads in the deserts running their water powered buggies and then stopping for a drink from their buggie's fuel(water) tank !!!!!!

  • oh dear (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 05, 2002 @03:30AM (#4817139)
    Lets see so far we have:

    1. Hydrogen = nitro glycerin.

    I'm sorry to spoil your pyromanic dreams, but hydrogen is not going to suddenly explode. It has to mix with air before it becomes dangerous, even then it burns so quickly that you would have to compress it into just the wrong size room to cause problems. But hey we already have bottles of propane, butane, LPG, etc. They in my opinion are more dangerous, because they are heavier then air, which means they burn around you, hydrogen flashes above you.

    Hydrogen is also relativly easy to detect electronically in the air, so monitoring isn't a problem. If necessary add the good aweful smelling gas they put into natural gas.

    2. It'll suck all the oxygen out of the room.

    Think about it for a few more seconds will ya? All rooms require ventilation. There are plenty of indoor generators, we cook with gas, etc, etc. Any ventilation requirements will be taken into account when the equipment is installed.

    3. Why no use larger batteries.

    Batteries have to be recharged between uses. New gas can be added to a running system. Oh but so can batteries be recharged by diesel, or swap in new batteries. This is the same problem.

    Generators need more fuel, fuel cells need more fuel, batteries need to be replaced. Which one is more convienant to keep running, depends on how long you need it to run, the availability of fuel, maintainence costs (generators need to be serviced), how long you expect to run on backup power, floor space. So fuel cells would be useful in many situations, think more big picture, and stop thinking about a particular situation. (Eg: use less batteries(20mins), fall back to fuel cell (4+ hours), call in generator.)

    4. Fuel hard to find.

    Yes, but it doesn't have a short shelf life or anything, what was the point? This is for backup purposes yes? Have you ever tried to replace the worn out batteries in a UPS? As the product becomes more popular gas will be easier to find.

    5. Generates water in server room.

    Magically enough so do air conditioners which are also in server rooms. We have invented magical devices called condensers, pipes and drains to deal with this.

    6. It's not like you can hear generator over the servers.

    This is also useful in areas not surrounded by loud machines. Most generators below a certain size are rather noisy. Fuel cells are silent. People using generators on farms, or island power supplies, etc would be interested in this. Once again stop thinking about a particular application.

    7. You can recharge UPS when power comes back on, but you still have to buy more fuel.

    Two issues:
    a) Cost: You are still paying for replacement fuel (The electricity to recharge the batteries). And batteries are horribly inefficient, you use much more power charging them, than you get back out of them.

    b) Convieniance: Batteries recharge automatically, but you have to manually change the fuel cannisters. Quite true for this design. However this problems goes away with natural gas powered fuel cells (Same deal as electricity). Reversible fuel cells are also under development. They use main power to split water back into oxygen and hydrogen. But you get similiar loses to recharging batteries, and you have to figure out where all the oxygen will go. (If you've seen a hydrogen fire, then seen an oxygen fire, you'd understand why I'm more worried by the oygen).
    • "5. Generates water in server room.

      Magically enough so do air conditioners which are also in server rooms. We have invented magical devices called condensers, pipes and drains to deal with this."

      Not quite. The cold surface if the AC evaporator collects condensation from water vapor in the surrounding air. It actually has a drying affect as long as the liquid water is removed before it can evaporate again.

      A fuel cell on the other hand really does generate water that wasn't there to begin with.

      Interestingly, the AC unit already present in the server room will probably prove adequate to remove the water vapor generated by that shiny new fuel cell.

  • The tech is *available*! I could go and buy it, if 6,000 dollars seemed like a good trade off for what this does. Admittedly, it doesn't. A UPS or a internal combustion generator will do the same for much less.

    If I could pour water in this thing and have it make hydrogen for itself, that might increase its usefulness.

    Or if I hooked up a dehumidifier to it, and put it on top so the water would run into the fuel making tank....OMG!

    I've just invented a Perpetual Motion machine!

    Of course, having water around servers and switches makes for the Worlds Most Dangerous Server Room and many headaches...so maybe I've invented the Perpetual Motrin Machine.

    • If I could pour water in this thing and have it make hydrogen for itself, that might increase its usefulness. Or if I hooked up a dehumidifier to it, and put it on top so the water would run into the fuel making tank....OMG!

      That's actually not a terrible idea, but the recirculation isn't necessary. If you own your own building, you could cover the roof in solar panels to provide the energy for separation. You could collect a huge amount of hydrogen between power outages, even if the solar panels were powering the refrigeration.

  • Why do you have to by the hydrogen from them? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by PaybackCS ( 611691 ) <payback&pdxlan,com> on Thursday December 05, 2002 @04:01AM (#4817202) Homepage
    What's not typically known is using electricity you can reletively easily seperate water in to Oxygen and Hydrogen. Both of which could be stored to later go through a fuel cell and turned back into water and electricity. These conversions are very near to 100% perfect in terms of energy transfer. I've seen it demostrated at an alternative-fuel car show. It was very interesting, and got me interested in Hydrogen as a possible fuel for cars (and other things).

    Since this thing is supposed to be plugged into the wall anyways when it functions as a UPS, why can't it use the house voltage to generate the Hydrogen, rather then forcing you to buy bottles of the stuff. Granted, you may not be able to store it at the same preassures manufactures can, but I bet you could at least store enough in low pressures to keep you running for an hour or more, I mean how long does the average power-outage last? Last one I expiranced was only about 10 seconds.

    As for the safety of Hydrogen, from what I undersand, a fiber-wrapped steel bottle would be quite safe, but since hydrogen is so very light, any and all flame would just go straight up. All the combustable gass would burn in a second or less.

    Does anyone know how easy it is to run a carberated car off Hydrogen? Remove the carborator, insert metered hydrogen pipe, start engine. Because the fuel is not carbon-based, you don't even have to change your oil for litterally years (add some additives maybe...). The emissions are clean water, and it develops nearly the same ammount of power as regular Gasoline does. They only down sides are getting hydrogen in quantity, and the price (equivalent of about $3/gal).
    • >The emissions are clean water, and it develops >nearly the same ammount of power as regular Gasoline >does. They only down sides are getting hydrogen in >quantity, and the price (equivalent of about >$3/gal).
      Actually you still have to worry about NOx emissions. Now if you burned it an a water vapor Ox mixture then you could have a truly clean emisions.

      >I mean how long does the average power-outage >last? Last one I expiranced was only about 10 >seconds.

      Average? maybe a few minutes. Two years ago we had one last 3 days.
    • Ok... there's one slight problem with this. It's collectively called the Laws of Thermodynamics.

      Yes, hydrogen can be separated out of water with electrical current. However... what you're doing is using electricity to break the chemical bonds between the hydrogen and the oxygen. In short...

      You're running a fuel cell in reverse.

      So now you use the hydrogen you got through this wonderful technique to power a fuel cell... what do you suppose your energy efficiency is?

      Pretty damned close to zero.

      'Ok it isn't any more efficient than petroleum... hell it's much less efficient. But it's GREEN it's so much CLEANER!!!!' (Can you tell I've had this discussion before? ;)) Yet Another Slight Problem: Where do you people think the energy comes from to make the electricity to separate out the hydrogen from water in the first place?

      Oh yeah... a coal burning power plant. Or a hydroelectric plant. Or a nuclear plant. Or any other classical energy producing technology.

      A while back people were discussing a subterranean source of hydrogen, which would be a real boon... but until we find out a bit more about that and figure out how to use it, hydrogen is no real improvement unfortunately.

  • Poor advertising shots (Score:4, Funny)

    by A non moose cow ( 610391 ) <slashdot@rilo.org> on Thursday December 05, 2002 @04:10AM (#4817216) Journal
    Given the uneasiness that people have about hydrogen canisters and potential explosions, does anyone else think it is a bit odd that the promo shots feature exploding "Coming Soon!" signs?

    Maybe they are just trying to be prophetic.

  • Power out of 2000 psi Hydrogen (Score:5, Interesting)

    by reverseengineer ( 580922 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @04:19AM (#4817230)
    "Power out of Thin Air." And, um, also hydrogen. These fuel cells are neat, but Coleman (according to the website) maintains that they're only meant for industrial applications at the present. Looking at the hydrogen canisters they currently have available, they are industrial-size jobs, several feet tall, filled with H2 gas at 2000 psi, and can provide hours of power. These types of cylinders are pretty dangerous no matter what is stored in them. I work at my university's physics department helium/nitrogen facility, and I'd consider the pressurized helium gas cylinders at room temp to be far more dangerous than the liquid nitrogen and liquid helium we also vend, because a damaged 2000 psi gas cylinder is essentially a 150 lb. steel missile. Still, if properly handled and stored, they aren't too much of a worry. The types of customers who would use the AirGen in its current state are the types who probably have some high-pressure cylinders of various gases in use at the worksite anyway- the hydrogen cylinders are certainly no more dangerous than the oxygen canisters used all the time in oxyacetylene welding.

    What seems to be lost in all of the bickering over the explosiveness of hydrogen is the recognition of the real potential breakthrough of this product- the AirGen canister, the one that stores hydrogen as metal hydride. If it is as good as it sounds, it's a major step towards solving the fuel storage problems that have held fuel cells back for so long. Unfortunately, they don't give much in the way of specs- I'd be very interested to know how much uptime that 15 lb. canister produces in comparison to the pressurized cylinders, and what the uptime/price ratio is. (It generally costs about 20-30 bucks to fill one of the large hydrogen cylinders, which suggests that it'd only cost about 2-3 dollars an hour to provide clean emergency power. I can see why people are interested.) I'd also like to know more about the metal hydride it uses- lithium, or is it something else, like nickel or palladium? Storing hydrogen as a metal hydride is a good way to make it a lot safer and more convenient, but most metal hydrides are still extraordinarily reactive- I can remember all the reactions from organic chemistry that used lithium aluminum hydride to carry out heavy-duty reductions. Eschewing the huge steel cylinder/bomb to provide hydrogen fuel is a great idea, but I'd rather not have to keep a Type D fire extinguisher handy near my computer. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that specs are minimal because the AirGen canister is not quite ready for prime time- which is a familiar story for fuel cells.
    • Good review of the fuel issue. Do you know what kind of "energy density" you can get with hydrogen locked up in a metal-hydride? Is it about the same as, say, methanol?

      What excites me about this product is that a) I can now stop seeming like a crackpot when I wax poetic about the wonders of fuel cell technologeh (most people don't seem to believe how revolutionary this is! why?!?) and b) now (or soon) me and my friends can have a nice, hippy-friendly rave in the middle of nowhere, and won't have to worry about masking the sound of a generator with MASSIVE WAVES OF TECHNO AND GOA-TRANCE. Granted, we'd probably play it that loud anyway... but what about the breakdowns and ambient passages?

      Also we'd have to hook up a couple of these puppies to make sure we have a lots of power (I think the specs say it can push 1600W for a couple of seconds, maybe the next generation will have more oomph). But I really look forward to getting one in a couple of years... Instant Burning Man! just add water!
    • These types of cylinders are pretty dangerous no matter what is stored in them.

      Oh, please. About three times a month I strap a cylinder with 3000 psi of gaseous nitrogen, oxygen and other mixed gases onto my back. I then take it from an environment with one atmosphere of pressure to an environment that applies about four atmospheres of pressure to the outside of the tank and then back to one atmosphere again. It's called SCUBA diving and thousands of people do it every day.

      You should, of course, have your tanks pressure tested by a certified technician once a year, and retire any that show significant fatigue or any other flaws, but other than that, I worry much more about drowning then blowing up when I'm diving.
  • And that would most likely come from electricity. One of the most prevalent sources of said energy is coal burning power plants. Now, I know that there are a lot of dams that provide us with power too, but those also have costs. The Northwest has only recently come to realize that putting dams on rivers threatens fish, etc. If there is some vast reserve of pure hydrogen that someone can find, then great. But until then, these fuel cells simply shift the pollution to the site of the power plants. Please don't get me wrong, I love the idea of driving a car with a fuel cell sometime in the future; or even using the Coleman generator in my house. Truly great would be using a solar panel array to split the water, then using the result to feed a fuel cell later. Peace (first post! yay!)
  • Is the console in that picture [airgen.com] sporting a big ole BSOD..? [windowscrash.com]

    If so, maybe it was caused by a sysadmin snaring their ankle in those power cords hanging out of the front of the unit.. or maybe that power switch sticking out like a chair prevented a falling object from hitting the ground :/

    I hate to be mean, as it's obviously a new product, and from a company that is likely new to machine room ergonomics, but it appears to have a few case design flaws that will probably contribute to downtime as much as the power outage the unit was designed to prevent.

    Sure is a cute little thing though.. maybe in a future version they'll recess the cords in a well, and recess the power switch away from where it can accidentally be tripped. I like the case design otherwise.

  • 65 dba (Score:3, Interesting)

    by killosdnbar ( 530347 ) <richard@rex86.com> on Thursday December 05, 2002 @04:54AM (#4817302)
    65 dba (a bit louder than a normal conversation) doesn't seem like a "pretty decent" spec to me. My UPS is a heck of a lot quieter seeing as I can't even hear it.
  • many (most?) coleman products are manufactured by other companies who then pay coleman to use the brand name. a brand name can really change how much you can charge and how well something sells. i worked for a company that sold crappy portable tvs and radios, among other things, that were not selling well enough so they licensed the coleman name (for like $0.70 per piece) and the sales went up. i wonder how much the coleman name cost this case. funny thing, that consumer perception.
  • I've been hoping this technology would reach the consumer market (who 'da thunk Coleman would be the one?). Been reading about this in Mother Earth News for years.

    Yes, you could produce your own hydrogen quite easily from electricity and water. The problem here is to produce pure hydrogen without any residual oxygen left in the line or holding tank *very dangerous*. So don't try this at home without researching it! A proper setup would burn off the residual oxygen in the hydrogen line using (guess what) another fuel cell. Purified hydrogen can be stored at moderate pressure in inspected propane tanks -- though you go through a lot of tanks as the energy per pound is quite low.

    Purify the oxygen output using another fuel cell, and you have medically pure oxygen! Wouldn't those medical supply companies hate to see people producing their own!

    So what I'm really waiting for to hit the mass market is a safe inexpensive hydrogen producing machine. It would make storing electrical energy cheap for windmill generators or pv cells.

    Some of the less informed here think you could produce electricity from water itself. Water doesn't contain the potential for producing power (caveat follows) -- you have to put in power before you can take it back! My apologies to those already using the trace amounts of H3 (heavy water) to power the Mr. Fusion on their DeLoreans.

    And yes, you could run a fuel cell on methane. It takes an extra step and another precious metal (iridium, palladium? I forgot) in addition to the platinum layer. On the output, it generates CO2 in addition to water vapor. Not quite as clean as pure hydrogen, but who wouldn't want to run their computer on chickens**t gas!

    A pig farmer in Africa produced methane from all the manure and (using conventional generators) supplied all the electricity for his farm and home. Biggest advantage though was the cleanliness of his farm -- no stink, almost no flies! I'd love to see (and smell) a lot more farms use this technology.

    Methane's also very abundant in the form of hydrides underneath the ocean. Between that and the farms methane could supplant most of the oil in our economy. Potential for world change abounds.
    • you could produce your own hydrogen quite easily from electricity and water
      The only reason it would make any sense to do that, and then to use the hydrogen in a fuel cell to produce electricity, is if you didn't have some more efficient way to store the energy, or you need it stored in a portable form.

      In general it is MUCH more efficient to store energy by pumping water uphill, storing it as gravitational potential energy. There are many generating facilities that do this. They pump the water uphill at night, when there is excess generating capacity from other sources, and then do hydroelectric generation during the day to meet peak demands.

  • Um (Score:2)

    by Konster ( 252488 )
    Old news, guys. This was posted a YEAR ago almost to the month on Slashdot.

    The same comments apply today as they did then.

    6K for something that you can't really get fuel for. And if you can get it, you will pay for it. Dearly.

    Powering and paying for this thing for a day on Hydrogen makes Diesel look like the fuel of the future.

    It is a step in the right direction in terms of science. But in terms of people wanting to pay for it?

    No, I didn't think so.

  • Do you have to pump it 'til your thumb is blue before it will start? Does it shoot out 6 ft flames when it is first started?

    Memories of Colman lanterns and stoves.

  • Verizon has a fuel cell backup system for a whole Central Office, this is 1.4MW!

    UTC Fuel Cells announced the sale of seven PC25TM fuel cell power plants to Verizon to provide primary power for a critical call-routing center on Long Island, New York. The seven units, which each produce 200 kilowatts of electricity and 900,000 Btus of usable heat, will form the largest fuel cell installation in the world, surpassing the PC25 installation at the Connecticut Juvenile Training Center in Middletown, Conn. Verizon will install the units at a 332,000 square-foot facility in Garden City that delivers local phone service to some 40,000 Verizon customers on a 24-hour basis. The facility is also home to more than 1,000 employees who handle various functions, including answering customer calls.

    The fuel cells, which together will generate 1.4 megawatts of electricity, will provide primary electrical power for the facility. Verizon also plans to install four natural gas powered generators to operate in parallel with the fuel cells as a hybrid system that can generate up to 4.4 megawatts of electrical power. The generators will serve as backup power, along with the electrical grid and batteries. Last year, UTC Fuel Cells installed six units at the Connecticut Juvenile Training School in Middletown. The units form a 1.2-megawatt microgrid to provide power to buildings on the campus. This is currently the largest fuel cell installation in the world.

    A fuel cell is an electrochemical device that combines hydrogen, or hydrogen-rich fuel, and oxygen to produce electricity, heat and water. Fuel cells operate without combustion, making them almost pollution free. While a traditional generating system produces as much as 25 pounds of pollutants to generate 1,000 kilowatt-hours of electricity, the PC25 power plant produces less than an ounce.

    UTC Fuel Cells has manufactured the PC25 power plant since 1991 and delivered more than 245 to customers in 19 countries on five continents. Those power plants have together accumulated nearly 5 million hours of operation.

    More info: http://www.utc.com/press/2002-03-20.htm

    • That article is about about phosphoric acid fuel cells. That is a mature technology that's been in commercial use for over a decade. It runs at a high temperature, does not scale well below a quarter megawatt and takes time to start up. They compete with gas turbines.

      PEM fuel cells are just beginning to appear in commercial products. They cost more per kilowatt, but can be scaled down to the size of a laptop battery and can go from zero to full power in a fraction of a second. They compete with batteries and small internal combustion engines, mainly in mobile applications.
      See also this overview of fuel cell technologies [ballard.com] and this table [h2fc.com].

  • Posted last January (Score:2, Informative)

    by Icculus ( 33027 )
    This is another dup [slashdot.org], but I'll be nice since it was almost a year ago (and the price seems to have dropped).
  • Well lets see, my diesel genset cost about half as much, produces about 7 times more electrcity, and will run for 10 days of 133 lbs worth of fuel producing the same about of power the fuel cell does as opposed to the 11 hours this coleman fuelcell will run. Ok I know a lot of that 133 lbs for the hydrogen fuel cell is the canister, but still even if half the weight is canister and only say 60-70 lbs is fuel my diesel will still run for days after the fuelcell has exhausted its hydrogen.

    About the only differnce is I have to run my generator in its generator shed outside, and it is noisy, but still I think the fuel economy, ease of obtaining diesel and the fact that if worse comes to worse I can run bio-diesel (which is chemically altered french fry oil). Sorry still sticking with diesel here.

  • I'm tired of all the luddites (Score:3, Insightful)

    by racerx509 ( 204322 ) on Thursday December 05, 2002 @10:04AM (#4818196) Homepage
    I keep reading from everyone here about how costly this thing is and how batteries, or a ups or a small generator would be better.

    Hello? Is this slashdot or a luddite convention? This thing is new technology. Fuel cells have been around a while, but this is the first time that private citizens can get their hands on them. THat being said, I think its wonderful. As more competition comes about and the public will learn of their benefits, I expect to see more of these little wonders, making more power at cheaper prices.


    Think of the benefits.
    A more powerful version could be built into new homes that would automatically kick in and provide silent, backup power for the refrigerator and freezer, to keep food from spoiling.

    This could possibly kick off the infrastructure necessary for having hydrogen based vehicles replace the current internal combustion engine powered vehicles of today.

    It could finally allay the public's fears about hydrogen being a volatile, explosive gas.

    Increased competition and development to make smaller, more powerful hydro generators will also translate into cars. A 1000 mile range hydro powered car that goes 0-60 in 4 secs with comfortable seating for four, yet puts out almost no pollutants could be in our future if these things were to be seriously adopted by society.

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