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Keyboarding Love Or Keyboarding Pain 276

Posted by timothy from the plus-they-look-tough dept.
flyingember writes "Over on Ars, they've done the ultimate review for anyone who sits at a computer more than someone on AOL does, the IMAK Smart Gloves. These gloves are supposed to both prevent and help ease pain associated with conditions such as carpal tunnel syndrome. Read it to see if our code monkey enjoys the gloves or if they're just something for him to throw at the gawking crowd."
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Keyboarding Love Or Keyboarding Pain More

Keyboarding Love Or Keyboarding Pain

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  • Yeah and (Score:2, Funny)

    by Cat_Byte ( 621676 )
    It also works well for beating the hell out of any key to continue. I think one of those pictures looks like a rat attacking a hand.

  • Can it get any nerdier? (Score:5, Funny)

    by ekrout ( 139379 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @10:29PM (#4868239) Journal
    Glasses? Check.
    Dorky parted hair? Check.
    High-pitched, nasally voice? Check.
    Skinny fragile body? Check.
    Computer gloves? Check.

    Sigh.

    So much for useful innovation...

  • This worked for me (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @10:30PM (#4868243)
    I had a moderate case of tendonitis from keyboarding and mousing about 2 years ago, and this thing does work.

    I like the fact that you can still bend your wrist as much as you want, but you are gently reminded that you are bending, so you eventually stop doing it. It's not constricting like those braces.

    • Re:This worked for me (Score:4, Informative)

      by Sad Loser ( 625938 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:40AM (#4868546)
      tendonitis is real, CTS is real, most doctors would say that RSI patients tend to be nutters.
      (IMHO, IAAD)
      rest and splinting are standared treatments for tendonitis and CTS. Use whatever works but CTS has a genetic component, and other diseases may also predispose you to it. CTS is not really classified as an 'overuse injury'in that overuse is not proven to cause it, although overuse may exacerbate the symptoms, if you appreciate the difference

      tendonitis is an overuse injury, and splinting, drugs like ibuprofen and steroid injections are all useful.
    • Well, not really a cure, but this works for me pretty consistently. I do yoga, try to do it regularly, things are always better all over my body if I am doing it regularly. For keyboard/mouse pains a particular pose is the trick. You bend over from the waist. Like this [holistic-online.com]. Now put your hands under your bare feet, with the toes at your wrists. Let your feet press your body weight into your carpal tunnel. You can pull up a bit, straightening your back like you're going to stand, creating more pressure massaging the carpal tunnel. Do this every day for a minute or so for best results. Another good one is to get on hands and knees, and instead of having your palms on the floor, bend your wrists so the back of your hands are on the floor. It's awkward but it's another good way to massage that part of your wrists and hands. It's a good counterpose for the pressure you put on that part of your body during keyboard work. And doing this regularly may be a pain, but I am sure it beats the shit out of wrist surgery.

      • Another cure... (Score:3, Informative)

        by curunir ( 98273 )
        Rock Climbing (indoor or outdoor).

        I used to have a mild case of CTS. I could only go about an hour before typing would become too painful. My wrist position while typing is pretty much as bad as could possibly be imagined, so that probably had something to do with it.

        Then I started climbing. Climbing builds insane amounts of finger and wrist strength. I can now support my entire body weight (which has decreased by 30 lbs too!) hanging from any one of my fingers.

        And my CTS is gone. Entirely. I routinely go 8-10 hours of continual typing (yes, I am a programmer) without any pain whatsoever. And my wrist position is as bad as ever.

    • Second picture (Score:2, Insightful)

      by itwerx ( 165526 )
      If you look at the picture on the second page where he's sitting in front of his laptop you can see why he's got RSI!
      Guy obviously didn't read the little ergonomics flyer that comes with practically everything these days.

      • Re:Second picture (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Paul Menage ( 36554 )
        If you look at the picture on the second page where he's sitting in front of his laptop you can see why he's got RSI!

        Guy obviously didn't read the little ergonomics flyer that comes with practically everything these days.


        Absolutely - he needs to get a separate keyboard and a good keyboard/mouse tray. Bringing my hands down several inches so that my forearms were level was IMO probably the single biggest factor in getting rid of my tendonitis a year or so ago.

  • dvorak (Score:4, Insightful)

    by YahoKa ( 577942 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @10:30PM (#4868246)
    switching to dvorak would probably help more than theses gloves...

    • Re:dvorak (Score:4, Funny)

      by CanadaDave ( 544515 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:06AM (#4868358) Homepage
      I never liked John Dvorak's stupid newspaper articles.

    • re:dvorak (Score:2, Informative)

      by Elbows ( 208758 )
      Only if you have the time to adjust to it...
      I tried switching to Dvorak once, but I was spending like 4-5 hours a day at the computer, doing homework, talking on IM, etc. The result was a lot of tension and a lot of pain, and after a month there hadn't been a significant improvement so I gave it up.

      I might try it again someday if I could restrict my computer use to half an hour of typing practice each day, for 3-4 weeks (like that will ever happen)

      • Re:dvorak (Score:4, Informative)

        by Graspee_Leemoor ( 302316 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @03:29AM (#4869223) Homepage Journal
        Yes, I do roll out this story of mine every time, but here we go again.

        I switched to Dvorak layout AND touch typing from being a very fast (70wpm) 6-finger-looking-at-the-keyboard-qwerty guy.

        Not only that, but I switched right in the middle of a big VB project I was working on.

        For the first week it was amusing. I would have typed out half of a word and I'd be staring at the screen going "L- now where is it? erm erm erm- ah! Now, S.... erm..."

        I know that it would have better to do some sort of typing exercises or something to make the switch but I didn't want to be typing everything else in qwerty and getting myself confused.

        The results, after a couple of months were astonding: my RSI-like symptoms were gone and only come back slightly when I am forced to use a non-split keyboard. (Note that I can actually type faster these days on a non-split keyboard but it sure as hell isn't good for me).

        I am now up to about 70 wpm again which is only the same as before, I admit, but typing is a lot more comfortable and of course I don't have to look at the keyboard as I type, which increased my score in Typing of the Dead no end. (By the way, I totally recommend this game to people who want to practice Dvorak).

        I was amazed at myself in the end- not for the fact that I had got rid of my RSI-like symptoms, but because I had managed to achieve the same typing speed after only about 5 months that I had had with my old technique, which had been built up over about 20 years.

        graspee

    • I developed a burning pain in my wrists because I wasn't holding my wrists perfectly flat while I typed and I was typing quite a bit more than coding normally requires. I had heard Dvorak made a difference and the pain was a sufficient enough prod that I took the plunge and switched. Didn't help. At first it did, but that was because I was barely typing.

      Once my speed had picked up to the point where I could actually get something done, my old habit of letting my wrist bend came back to haunt me. If the gloves look nerdy, imagine a man with sharp pencils strapped to the top of his arms with velcro for an even nerdier image. The pencil points would poke me every time my wrists bent which would remind me to straighten my wrists. That was what this geek needed to get rid of the problem. I've since discarded the pencils and instead, stacked two keyboard wrist rests on top of each other so I don't have to think about wrist posture - it comes automatically. YMMV.

      For what it's worth, I never did regain my qwerty speed. I type at 70 wpm now but back in the days when cpu speed was measured in khz I'd hit bursts of 95 wpm. The other down side is it annoys the hell out of people I work with because nobody ever knows what the current state of the keyboard is until they start typing and discover they're typing gibberish.

    • Not really. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Chris Burke ( 6130 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @09:53AM (#4870681) Homepage
      Switching to dvorak is an improvement over qwerty, but it's a very minor improvement compared to using correct typing posture. You'll get RSI typing in dvorak just the same as qwerty if you have your wrists bent while typing, though it might take longer. I type dvorak and have for a good four years, but I still see a pair of these gloves in my future.
    • I think more needs to be done to educate people about dvorak. If you know the dvorak layout, show it to people you know. From experience, it only takes abotu 2 weeks to learn and after that it's much easier to type. I've been able to convince 3 other people to learn the layout. If it can go from just a few people typing it -> a few thousand geeks -> it may eventually reach the main stream. This is really one of the few things that could really help improve user experience with computers if it is taught from the start.

  • This is great, but... (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    What really would be good for the holidays....A stress ball! For all the time spent fixing their server!

  • dirty mind (Score:5, Funny)

    by Twirlip of the Mists ( 615030 ) <twirlipofthemists@yahoo.com> on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @10:31PM (#4868251)
    I admit it. I'm a big perv. But when I read "keyboarding love," I thought it was a new euphemism for cybersex.

    Man, that is flagrant false advertising.

  • Geek Factor (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Professor_Quail ( 610443 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @10:32PM (#4868259) Homepage
    Was I the only one who thought this was going to be something cool and geeky since its on Slashdot? I was hoping it would be something like the P5 glove [essentialreality.com], except it would allow you to type in mid-air. I did read an article on something like that one time, but the last I heard it was just a prototype.

  • Gloves wont help. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by packeteer ( 566398 )
    A glove will either restrict your movement to keep you from moving in the wrong way which will cause physical stress from the unnatural movement. Or it wont restrict your movement at all and might jsut be uncomfortable. These gloves prevent you from moving your wrists wrong but even if it holds you wrist in place the muscles and tendons are still being strained as they try to move.
  • These things look like a bean-bag version of Mouse Mitts [www.mousemitt], which have been around for years. While they aren't a panacea I have found the proper use of Mouse Mitts actually did help me out (though not in isolation, of course... it's always important to alter damaging behaviours, etc.).

    While the bean bag thing is interesting, really these don't look like anything new.

  • It's kinda hard (Score:3, Funny)

    by nuckin futs ( 574289 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @10:32PM (#4868266)
    to masturbate while wearing that. isn't that why we're all in front of the computer? :P
  • Those things look a lot like like those sport grip glove things you see people at the Y wearing.
    But anyway, I found a "massager neck pillow" at a garage sale, and integrated the massaging unit into my wrist rest, so whenever I push down hard enough on the rest, it feels really nice. I don't know how much this helps prevent carpal tunnel syndrome compared to these gloves, but it sure feels good whenever my hands get tired.

  • link? (Score:2, Informative)

    by Nate Fox ( 1271 )
    how bout a link to the actual article [arstechnica.com]?

  • From the review... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The heels of the gloves contain a pocket of beads

    Bring on the pr0n, baby, bring on the pr0n!!! I sure hope these gloves are washable!

  • Couple this with Dvorak... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MattRog ( 527508 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @10:34PM (#4868278)
    Also try switching to Dvorak.

    You probably won't be any faster, but your fingers *will* travel less. I know I used to have pain in my hands after long coding sessions at work on Querty - after switching to Dvorak I can say I have regained my previous speed (after three months or so) and long coding sessions no longer produce painful fingers!

    Of course, you should see your doctor immediately upon RSI-type pain.

    • Re:Couple this with Dvorak... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by CanadaDave ( 544515 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @11:58PM (#4868312) Homepage
      Is it tough to go back to Qwerty, once you've mastered Dvorak? I mean, if I go a friend's computer (without Dvorak setting turned on) and start typing, am I going to be able to remember the Qwerty style?
      • You'll feel a little frustrated at first, but for a week after you've mastered Dvorak, practice 50/50 Dvorak/QWERTY and after that you'll be set. I have a few seconds of confusion at a new keyboard, but other than that, it's fine.

      • Re:Couple this with Dvorak... (Score:4, Interesting)

        by MattRog ( 527508 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:06AM (#4868365)
        It depends on how often you switch back and forth. If I go a long time (a month) I sit there like an idiot in front of the keyboard hunting and pecking for a while until I can remember.

        If you regularly use QUERTY there should be no problem, really. Of course, if your friend uses Windows 2000/XP it is incredibly easy to temporarily change to Dvorak and back. That's what I end up doing if I need to use another computer for any length of time.

        The problem comes into play when playing some games - most Quake derivatives (Half-Life, Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, etc.) use hard-coded Querty key layouts, so your keys revert back to Querty. Just something to keep in mind.
        • Uhm... Just one correction: in Half-Life, you can bind your controls to anything you'd like. Unreal Tournament is the same.

          I think most modern games allow you to rebind your keys; everyone has their own "perfect" layout and they want it just a bit different.

        • dvorak with wine and ease of switching (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Erpo ( 237853 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @01:47AM (#4868834)
          The problem comes into play when playing some games - most Quake derivatives (Half-Life, Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, etc.) use hard-coded Querty key layouts, so your keys revert back to Querty. Just something to keep in mind.

          This is why I switched to linux/wine for quake and quake derivatives (mostly Half-Life for me). Well, that and that I like to be able to individually tweak per-game opengl settings like FSAA in startup scripts. Anyway, keypresses in X are always translated before they get to the program, so I don't have to worry about using qwerty on my own machine.

          It's not all that hard to switch back and forth, but there's a huge amount of inconsistency in windows. Most 3D games come with their keybindings preset for the popular WADS layout (w for forward, a for strafe left, d for strafe right, s for back, e for use, r for reload, etc...). Nicer, more modern games like Hitman II (the demo at least) automatically set themselves for your keyboard layout. I was incredibly pleased when I installed the game, got ready to reconfigure the key bindings, entered the menu, and found that the game had replaced WADS with ,AEO automatically. Some games like Jedi Knight go the opposite route, and read QWERTY in the menu and during gameplay. Not as good, but at least I can press a key during configuration and have the same key perform that function during gameplay.

          Wine fixes all of those problems, but what I really appreciate is what it does for Half-Life. In windows 2000 with the keyboard mapping set for dvorak, Half-Life reads dvorak in the menus and qwerty during gameplay. ARG! That means than I have to configure the game by entering a qwerty layout using a dvorak keyboard, and then play as if my keyboard weren't remapped. I tried HL under wine, saw that games worked like they should, and never went back.

          ----------

          As for the parent post's question about how easy it is to switch, I didn't get really comfortable with dvorak until I had been using it for about two months. Now that I'm comfortable with it, I find that I type significantly faster than I did with qwerty; I'm probably about 10-20% faster, but I've never done a benchmark or anything (before or after). The most significant benefit, I think, is that I got to re-learn how to type and get rid of some bad habbits I could never shake. Before I switched, I would hit shift with the same hand I used to type the capital letter; now I hit shift with one hand and hit the letter key with the other.

          As for how hard it is to switch back and forth between qwerty and dvorak, I have some direct experience with that. I use dvorak on my home computer and on a friend's computer (he switched about the same time I did), but I'm forced to use qwerty on the computers at my college. I spend much more time typing at home than I do at school, so using qwerty is fairly awkward for the first few minutes. After that I probably type at about 80-90% the speed I did before (again, that's just a guess).

          • Relearning (Score:2, Interesting)

            by gidds ( 56397 )
            The most significant benefit, I think, is that I got to re-learn how to type and get rid of some bad habits I could never shake.

            This is certainly a significant factor; maybe the significant factor in the increased comfort of Dvorak.

            I started learning Dvorak, and got quite far, but the number of QWERTY keyboards I found myself using made me rethink. But like you, when I tried Dvorak I also stepped back and thought about how I type, and was able to use all of that when I went back to QWERTY, so that my typing is much more comfortable than it was.

            For example, I'd toyed with touch-typing before, but at that point I learned it properly. I also looked at my hand positions; the touch-type positions I'd seen for the left hand felt quite unnatural, so I changed (using middle finger for RDX instead of EDC, for example), and like you ensured I used the right Shift key.

            Later on, I had a small right palm strain, and found myself looking again at how I used my hands. (Stop sniggering at the back!) I found that my left hand was pretty much stationary, but my right was forever leaping between alphabetical keys, cursor keys, numeric keypad and mouse. As a result, I learned to mouse left-handed (I said stop sniggering!), which gives a much better balance of hand use for me. (Actually, I found left-handed mousing very easy to learn.)

            The important thing is to think: look at what your hands are actually having to do, and think about how to improve things. This should help most folk who have problems, especially if you do it before they get too bad.

          • "The most significant benefit, I think, is that I got to re-learn how to type and get rid of some bad habbits I could never shake"

            but it is a shame it could not improve your spelling....

            :-)
            • but it is a shame it could not improve your spelling....

              Actually, my spelling is usually fairly good. The problem is that learning dvorak just made it easier to stay up until 2am writing posts on slashdot while reading about the latest LoTR movie (you know, the one with hobbits in it? ;) ).

              That said, good for you. Slashdot and the internet in general are absolutely polluted with posters who don't understand basic English grammar such as the difference between there, their and they're. I'm not talking about those for whom English is a second language -- they're pretty easy to pick out, and the fact that they're making an effort (most of them do) is a positive thing. I'm talking about people who fell asleep in their ninth grade English class -- every day -- and now spend their time chatting on AOL using "u" instead of "you" and ignoring the difference between your and you're.
        • I'm a Dvorak guy. I tend to remember "modes" for how I'm typing (such as, I always try and type "slashdot.org" in qwerty mode, because all my Dvorak machines have bookmarks for it).

          But that didn't affect the layout I used for games. What did affect the layout I used for games was that UT wouldn't accept ' , . as keys. Quake handled this fine by always not caring about the raw input, but no UT-based engine I have found yet has support for non-letter keys as input keys. Very frustrating.

      • Re:Couple this with Dvorak... (Score:4, Funny)

        by Sludge ( 1234 ) <slashdot@@@tossed...org> on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:32AM (#4868502) Homepage
        It's alright, sometimes I forgek ,jgij mdkjsh Gqm ktrglu gl alh G ysoudk ks pssv ak kjd mslgkso yso a ,jgpde
      • I junt switched to dvorak a few days ago. I'm still pretty slow, but I am getting faster much more quickly than I would have expected. Anyway, I don't forsee any problem going back and forth. All you have to do is go into the control panel and change your keyboard settings. And if you're on Linux, just type 'loadkeys dvorak' in the console and 'setxkbmap -layout dvorak' in X. It's pretty simple.

        The strange thing is the fear in people's eyes when you change their keyboard layout. Like you won't be able to change it back or something. It really frightens them.
      • I probably went a year without typing qwerty, once I started using dvorak. It took me a couple minutes to get used to qwerty again, but I can still type just as fast as I used to. Its kind of weird too....when I picked up dvorak, I started typing more correctly...ie, fingers on home row, using the correct fingers to hit the keys. When I go back to qwerty, I still use only about 2 fingers on each hand and fly all over the place just like I used to. Switching keyboards is a fun mental experiment.

        For fun, try remapping caps lock to backspace and vice versa. That alone will screw you up for a while, but is worth it in the long run. (til you use another keyboard).
      • No it is not difficult to switch between the two. I still type 40wpm in QWERTY and it only takes my mind about a second to switch between the two. The only problem I ever have with dvorak is when co-workers who try to use my computer :)
    • At least you are making a claim about Dvorak that perhaps makes sense (contrary to popular belief, Dvorak layout does not lead to superior typing speeds - see this [utdallas.edu]) - has anyone researched whether Dvorak would help with RSI's? No offence to the parent, but I can't just go on one anecodote here :)

      I personally can't switch as I need to be able to sit down on anyones PC and just start typing... I don't seem to get RSI pain at all, but I'm sure it will start in a few years, given I am a gamer and a programmer...

      • Re:Couple this with Dvorak... (Score:5, Informative)

        by MattRog ( 527508 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:21AM (#4868437)
        Correct, most "Dvorak is faster than Qwerty" claims are not based on fact. Theoretically, though, your fingers travel less so perhaps you can type faster. I haven't coded Qwerty in a long time so I do not know what speeds are, but I am confident I am no slower.

        Most RSI help claims are, of course, anecdotal, but from what I have seen virtually everyone who has switched has seen vast improvements in comfort - that I can't ignore.

        A short list of pros and cons are here:
        http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/procon.html

        Note that no claims of speed superiority are made - most speed claims are made by uninformed converts and not by evangelists.

    • Re:Couple this with Dvorak... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Steve X ( 11964 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:13AM (#4868394) Homepage
      Early on in my second year at college,my hands had been tingling from too many late nights, days, and afternoons coding and chatting. I started to get freaked out (I mean, really, where's a coder if his hands are dead?). So I switched to Dvorak.

      Dovrak is wonderful - much less finger travel and a better balance of the hands (try typing english words with just your left hand vs. just your right hand in qwerty and you'll see what i mean). But Dvorak alone won't help you.

      The most important thing I found about switching from Qwerty to Dvorak is that I actually learned to touch type properly. Not having an actual Dvorak keyboard to look at the keys, I simply stopped looking as I typed and started relearning how to touch type. Mind you, I could touch type in Qwerty, but not fingers-on-homerow, actually-using-your-pinkeys typing.

      It was the proper relearning that I think really made my hands stop hurting. My fingers move substantially less than my poor Qwerty skills and as such, less strain from long finger reaches.

      Many people I encounter say, "oh, i'd learn Dvorak but then i could never use anyone else's computer" or "it'd take too long to learn" Yeah, it's true: it does take dedication. One can't just sit down in front of a Dvorak keyboard, not knowing it, and not get frustrated trying to type in real-time conversations.

      I found the best way to learn was to type class notes. That way, not only was I only limited by my own speed (not the speed of the conversation), but it provided good incentive to type faster (more notes).

      As for switching between the two: this is also a challenge, but well-worth overcoming. I kept getting confused at first which key was what in which mapping, but over time, I eventually got used to them as seperate layouts and my brain formed a nice distinction between the two. I can still type about as fast in Qwerty as I could before (though, honestly, i havn't tried recently), and I can type as fast, if not faster, in Dvorak.
    • Dvorak may help some cases but it depends on exactly which bad typing habit causes the problem. Dvorak has not helped me much because I learned to type back on typewriters that required a much firmer touch. As a result I tend to be a "pounder" unless I think very hard about typing.

      Basically my experience with RSI is that there is no "one size fits all" solution.
    • Vi in Dvorak? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller. Bueller.

      How is it?

      Training tools for learing this fanciful new keyboard layout? Anyone? Anyone?

      Want to switch Ctrl and Caps Lock? Make your h's into m's or 6's into 9's? Be sure to check out jwz's [jwz.org] XKeyCaps [jwz.org]. You can rewire your primary input device to your heart's content. From the site...

      xkeycaps is a graphical front-end to xmodmap. It opens a window that looks like a keyboard; moving the mouse over a key shows what KeySyms and Modifier bits that key generates. Clicking on a key simulates KeyPress/KeyRelease events on the window of your choice. It is possible to change the KeySyms and Modifiers generated by a key through a mouse-based interface. This program can also write an input file for xmodmap to recreate your changes in future sessions.

      Nice home page [jwz.org] Jamie. (BTW This is the guy behind everybody's favorite collection of screen hacks [jwz.org], XScreenSaver [jwz.org], the DNA Lounge [dnalounge.com] and an explanation of cut and paste in X [jwz.org], among other [jwz.org] things [jwz.org] . [jwz.org])

  • If I'm not mistaken wrist splints/supports that aim to keep the wrist from moving are old news, and alone an ineffective solution. I think one of the best things to do is get a split keyboard of some kind. This alone helped my RSI out within days.
  • Nothing new here, move on.
    These can be had at wallmart for $10.
    These could have been had for many years now...
    And yes she looks very comforatble holding her eyebrow with her thumb, try drinking coffee when you can't bend your wrists.

  • cheaper alternative (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kuroth ( 11147 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @11:51PM (#4868287)
    Pick up a pair of wrist braces [cvs.com] at the local drug store. Much cheaper, and they do the same thing.
    • Hmm, the "cheaper" alternative at CVS is $19.99, while the smart glove from the article is $19.95. Have you considered a remedial math course?
  • Obligatory UserFriendly [userfriendly.org] comic.

  • this might seem off-the-wall... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nido ( 102070 ) <nido56@@@yahoo...com> on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:05AM (#4868356) Homepage

    ...but if your computer is causing you pain, I speak the truth:

    1. check your insulin levels (no, it's not about diabetes)
    2. learn how to relax (body asleep/mind awake)
    3. get some exercise
    It's taken me three years to put this puzzle together, and that first point is probably the most important (I learned it last week, and cutting out the carbohydrates has already started to make a difference). email me [mailto] if you need more guidance, i'll be happy to dish out some knowledge..

    links:
    on the subject of insulin [mercola.com] - invert the frickin food pyramid
    why relaxin' is important [askwaltstollmd.com] - and some suggestions for getting started
    the exercise one - well, that one's kinda obvious, but is worthless without the other two.

  • Get some weights. Lift them. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by xtal ( 49134 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:16AM (#4868413)
    I had some minor problems with wrists and my thumb that were really annoying. I used microsoft ergo keyboards, but they're not popular anymore and I needed a replacement. I got a good quality normal one. I've used the really nice IBM monsters in the past, still have one in fact.. but my girlfriend can hear it across the house, so that's not a long term option. *click click click*

    The solution for me was when I started lifting weights.. the problems just went away. Get some free weights and a curl bar, cut back on the typing for a little while and then give it 6 months of 20 minutes three times a week. You'll look better, be stronger, and I bet your RSI will be better, too.

    And stop typing when it hurts!

    • Similar experience (Score:2, Informative)

      by leoboiko ( 462141 )

      I don't lift weights, but I'm a martial artist. When you train with weapons (nunchaku, jo and sword in my case), your wrists need to get stronger. After some weeks of nunchaku training my wrist pain stopped.

      So, if you don't like to lift weights, try training some traditional martial arts [koryu.com].

  • Good posture helped me. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:18AM (#4868428)
    My ex-boss (who had CTS surgery) noticed I was having serious pain one day and suggested I change my posture. This involved several things:

    1) Elevating my arms above my keyboard
    Having my arms below my keyboard resulted in my wrists resting on the desk or keyboard and puting more pressure on the tendan (sp?). This can simply be done by raising your chair or lowering your keyboard.

    2) Elevating my monitor above my keyboard. Having both the monitor and they keyboard on the same level resulted in my head being pointed down and my arms raised up. In general this is bad.

    3) Having my legs at a 90 degree angle. That is your chair should be at the correct height so that your legs come straight down at a 90 degree angle.

    4) Not slouching back. This is soooooo bad for your back. If you have a chair that allows you to lean back, make sure to stick it up right and in place. Slouching will result in lower back pain..

    In general sitting at a computer all day writing code is bad for your health. Poor circulation and repetitive motion is not good. Take some time to make sure your workstation is setup ergonomically and it will improve whatever work related pain is ailing you. In aidditon splits do help, at least they helped me. I have to say though, just setting my workstation up right did more help than any doctor or splint.
    • Good posture is definately a way to help prevent problems in the wrists and hands. One way that I make sure that I sit correctly is corsets (yes -- I am serious, corsets). It is very difficult to slouch or scrunch up in a chair when one has bones (steel not whale) poking into one's waist and back. The laced up garments are perfect for working at the computer for eight or more hours.

      As for pains in the wrists, I don't know how many of the guys are going to do this, but I knit during my lunch hour. After being diagnoised with carpel tunnel in both wrists and serious ulnar nerve irritation in one - knitting and crochet have stopped the pain and have kept me from having to have surgery.

  • Watch out for medical advice... like THIS advice: (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:22AM (#4868440)
    Two things:

    1. Over in Ars Technica's forum [infopop.net] someone named Figa made an excellent point:

    Ars Technica shouldn't be recommending medical devices to its readership, even if they're over-the-counter. I hate to think how many people will go out and buy the things instead of seeking medical advice, hoping that their pain will go away.

    My doctor warned me to avoid splints specifically because they can weaken your wrists, especially if they're worn 24-7 as the author recommends. Think about what happens to muscles when you wear a cast. They atrophy!

    There was a lot of lousy advice in the forum as well, which I can attest to firsthand...

    Figa (quoted above) then proceeded to explain why other people's advice was bad and then gave a 15 point treatment plan :)

    That said, if you're going to self-medicate with gadgetry, my vote would be to check out Kinesis [kinesis-ergo.com]'s Contoured Keyboards [kinesis-ergo.com]

    The keys are arranged in lines in pits in the shell of the key board. Your fingers naturally droop into the pits and then move forward and backward (rarely to the sides) to depress the appropriate key.

    Claimed to make the activity of typing simulate CTS reducing exercises. I have a co-worker who has one and loves it.

    • I'll put in a good word for kinesis too. I love mine and it made my wrists feel better (not perfect....typing is still bad for you, no matter how you do it). When I'm forced to use a flat keyboard, I feel it after even just a few minutes.
    • I am using one as well and can really recommend it.

      One word of warning: It took me something like a month before I was able to type on one of these keyboards as fast as I did on an ordinary one. So if you buy one of these, have patience.

      Now that I'm there however, there is no looking back. I can warmly recommend these keyboards.

    • Ditto on the Kinesis keyboard -- I have one that has helped me tremendously. After using the Kinesis for a few years I no longer feel pain from flat keyboards (like I did before I used it), but I can still feel the difference after long periods. And after the short learning period, my typing accuracy improved considerably using the Kinesis without any loss of speed. I recently started using a trackball, which also seems to help -- especially with my thumb doing the clicking (which it can do forever without tiring, unlike my fingers), while at the same time I've set up my environment so that I use the mouse less anyway (using , a very neat window manager). [cs.tut.fi]

      I also made the choice not to treat myself in many other ways. I occassionally take ibuprophen before I go to sleep, which reduces swelling and I believe that helps me heal. I never take it during the day, or ice, or use any other sort of physical intervention. I have feared that will just address my symptoms, while the underlying problem becomes even greater since I no longer get the painful feedback... when it finally catches up with me it might be worse than ever. My difficulties were only uncomfort and a limiting of my time on the computer -- I know other people have had much more serious conditions, and whatever happens I never want to get there.

  • My solution (Score:5, Informative)

    by Schemer ( 717 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:34AM (#4868514) Homepage

    My solution to wrist pain has been to use a break reminder program like xwrits [lcdf.org] to remind me to take a 5 minute break for every hour of computer use. I would use those five minutes to get out of my chair and walk around for a while, so not only was I resting my hands, but my whole body as well.

    It's also a good idea to look out the window at something distant while taking your breaks, you can avoid eye strain by not focusing on something 18 inches from your head all the time.

    JWZ [jwz.org] has some good advice [jwz.org] about this stuff on his site which I found very useful.

    • Xwrits is good, but Workrave is even better. It enforces periodic rest breaks like xwrits, plus it does timed microbreaks and a daily limit on typing. Plus, it's cross platform, so it runs on windows or Linux. Needs Gnome, though.
  • Wait 'til Apple hears about this. Lawyers attack!

  • There are real solutions (Score:3, Informative)

    by nonameisgood ( 633434 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:39AM (#4868535)
    At the risk of being too serious for this crowd - three things cause hand pain commonly (mis-)diagnosed as carpal tunnel 1) neck problems - very specific diagnosis, but think of it as a pinched nerve 2) shoulder problems - "thoracic outlet syndrome" now more often called "neurovascular compression syndrome" primarily due to holding arm up and/or out, as in mousing - specifically spasm of the subscapularis muscle - push your fingers up under your shoulder blade at your armpit - it will elicit the same pain 3) forearm muscle problems - primarily due to prolonged forearm twisting (screwdriving, etc.) and sometimes sports. These things seem to be carpal tunnel to diagnosticians (read most MD's). They need professional treatment and/or work position changes or they will get worse. If you have true carpal tunnel syndrome (CTS), the gloves in question will ease the pain at the expense of healing, since the typical nighttime hand pain in CTS is due to blood flow and the healing process. For CTS, weights or rubber bands used to strengthen the extensor muscles (back of the hands and arms) will fix many cases of true CTS. Don't let CTS go untreated as it can become permanent if it remains uncorrected. #1 priority in all cases should be workplace changes to prevent damage.

  • Don't cough up the cash (Score:2, Informative)

    by xygorn ( 632847 )

    For those of you too cheap to cough up the cash, an excellent weapon against RSI is simple exercises. Every five to ten minutes of typing, stretch your fingers as wide as you can for a couple seconds, then clench your fists as tight as you can for a couple seconds. Repeat a few times.

    This works best as a preventative measure, but also helps lessen the pain if you already have RSI problems

  • I feel his pain - solved with MS Natural kybd (Score:3, Informative)

    by Call Me Black Cloud ( 616282 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @12:55AM (#4868618)
    I was having problems with numbness and a little pain in one wrist. I switched to MS Natural Keyboard at home and work and I don't have the problem any longer. I think it's because the Natural keyboard keeps my wrists straight whereas before they would be canted to the left and right (using a "normal" keyboard").
  • Magazine featured a list of the almost available gadgets that will revolutionize the way we live. This article was featured in a late Nov issue. Of the featured gadgets, one was a projected keyboard. It consisted of this tiny projector/sensor which projects the image of a keyboard on a flat surface. As your finders touch the kyes(or rather the image of the keys), the sensor, by calculating the position of ure finger would know which key you are pressing. Now that's technology !! And no strain. These gloves look ergonamic all rite, but I would prefer this projected keyboard system.

  • I use something very similar to this. (Score:3, Informative)

    by AtariDatacenter ( 31657 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @01:08AM (#4868687)
    I got it from the doctor because of carpal tunnel like problems. (Insurance paid for a paid, even.) It has two velcro straps (which are tied to the glove kind of like shoelaces) which hold it on the arm. When I wear the glove, zero pain or problem whatsoever.

    If I wear the glove for a few months time, all my problems disappear. But they'll eventually come back if I stop wearing them. So, now adays, I wear it as a preventative measure, and it really works great.

    HINT: You might want to wash it on a regular basis, and you might want to have a backup pair for while it is being washed. Or two to switch between on a regular basis.

  • A zero-cost solution that works (Score:3, Informative)

    by r55man ( 615542 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @01:36AM (#4868806) Homepage

    I often type for over 12 hours a day--not 12 hour workdays, but 12 hours of actually banging at the keyboard. I used to get really bad cramps in my forearms and shoulders that would totally incapacitate me for a day or two at a time. Because I'm too poor to afford any high-tech gadgets (split keyboards and such), I had to come up with a cheap solution.

    What I did was to put a four books on the table and use one of those "natural" keyboards that have the keys at an angle. The four books are positioned in a way that the top two hang over the base of the keyboard, and nearly butt right up against the space bar. The books are angled so the base of my palms sits on the corners, and my wrists end up being perfectly level and aligned with my forearms. Also, the books are fairly thick, so my fingers kind of "hang down" onto the keys. These are large (long and wide) hardbacks, large enough so my elbows are also resting on them, and the net result is to take all of the strain off of my forearms and shoulders.

    Since my shoulders no longer have to do any work to hold my arms in place, and my forearms no longer have to do any work to maneuver my wrists, all of the pain has disappeared. I've done several consecutive 16-hour days of coding without feeling much of anything at all, and have never even felt close to the point where I'm too sore to type.

    I actually suspect that a lot of the so-called "RSI" is not so much due to repition as it is due to the stress of holding ones arms and wrists in a certain position for hours at a time. If you've ever tried to hold a couple of heavy books with your arms perfectly straight for any length of time you'll know that the pain eventually becomes fiery and unbearable, and is quite similar to the pain you feel after several days of coding. By simply supporting your forearms and wrists with something other than your muscles, you do away with all of the strain, and in my case this was all that was needed.

  • On the topic of RSI... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by stype ( 179072 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @02:22AM (#4868951) Homepage
    Since this has just turned into an RSI discussion, I thought I'd add another overlooked point. In my own personal experience, I feel more pain from using a mouse than a flat keyboard. Resting your wrist on the mousepad with your hand bent up and forward, over the mouse, is very bad. I think its the act of having your wrist bent awkwardly while using your fingers that leads to RSI. Gel mouse and keyboard rests shouldn't be used *while* typing/using the mouse, only to rest when you *aren't* doing that. I switched to a trackball from a mouse and I always try to keep my wrist straight (not bent) when using it, and its made a big difference (in addition to my kinesis keyboard). Figure I'd mention this, as the mouse often gets overlooked.
    • I have an old cordless keyboard (airboard-styled) with a trackball and buttons built into the right and left front corners (respectively) of the keyboard. I can easily hold it on my lap and move my hands to the sides of the keyboard, holding it much like a Gameboy Advance (TM) without strain to operate the 'mouse'.
  • I changed over to a microsoft optical trackball from a standard mouse; I now very rarely get the pains in my elbow, upper arm and shoulder that came from using a mouse.

    However, I now get my ass whipped in the office UT competitions :(
  • I do not think that you can ever help your hands by doing just one thing. A few weeks ago I sat down and wrote out a number of actions that all in conjunction create an enviorment that is much better for your wrist I believe. Check it out here and let me know what you think.

    -Benjamin Meyer

  • http://www.keyalt.com/pointdevices/renaissance.htm
    Get one of these, if you mouseing wrist bothers you. I havent had a single twinge since i started using it 2 years ago, and neither have my friends who started using it. I would never use a normal mouse again, if i could.
  • A keyboard lovers' best friends.

  • Use 'em, love 'em, never type without 'em (Score:3, Informative)

    by Del Vach ( 449393 ) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @10:14AM (#4870935)
    At my previous job, my (right) mousing arm was in a very bad position for mousing, and I started getting a significant amount of pain in my wrist. (Would have been less than $100 for a proper mouse tray so I can use a computer for the remainder of my life, cheap bastards)

    When I switched jobs, I started using the Imak SmartGlove and my wrist DOES NOT HURT AT ALL ANYMORE. If I type/mouse without one for a few hours, I feel the pain coming back.

    The only drawback is wear. If this thing in on my wrist basically all day, it gets dirty. After a few weeks or months (depending on your particular body chemistry), it will start to get a bit rank, and will need to be washed. Just take out the support and throw it in with the laundry.

    But drying can shrink them, and the support does weaken over time (although I must say, in the last two years they've made a few design improvements that have worked towards fixing this). So every few months when it's getting worn out, I get a new one at Staples for $15 (large tends to sell out first), and I use the 'old' one at home.

    My 2 cents: If you have experienced wrist pain, or want to avoid it, invest in at least one of these. They're well-constructed, a great value, and much less expensive and painful than carpel tunnel surgery.

    Buying a few SmartGloves a year? About $30-60. Not having burning wrist pain and weak hands? PRICELESS.
  • Here's a whole selection of supports [valeoinc.com]

    Personally, I use the Heavy-Duty Single Wrap (WHD-1) when I sleep, and nothing during the day.

    I don't type constantly, so the Dr. says after 15 years, I only have mild carpel tunnel, and I should just keep my wrists from bending when I sleep. Apparently, it's common for people to sleep curled up, and if you are starting with carpel tunnel, that just damages your wrists more.

    Besides, who the hell is "IMAK"? You buy Valeo, you can say "Hey, Mr. Olympia wears this stuff." (Check out any Muscle and Fitness mag)

    This ends my advertisement. :P

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