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Rats, Robots, And Rescue Follow Up 78

Posted by Hemos from the danger-will-robinson dept.
Dr. Robin Murphy writes "An editorial comparing the proposed roborats with the rescue robots actually used at the WTC response by the Center for Robot-Assisted Search and Rescue appeared last month in IEEE Intelligent Systems Magazine. A slightly longer version is at Crasar.org. Note that the rescue robots was in Discover Magazine's Top 100 stories of 2002."
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Rats, Robots, And Rescue Follow Up More

Rats, Robots, And Rescue Follow Up

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  • mirror (Score:5, Informative)

    by nounderscores ( 246517 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @09:45AM (#4898513)
    for the article [216.239.53.100]

    and

    for the main page [216.239.53.100]

    try to go easy on poor old google.

  • They don't call them rats for nothing... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Wierd Willy ( 161814 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @09:51AM (#4898521) Journal
    Seems to me that the "law enforcement" community
    would embrace this new tool as a way to check up on citizens. These machines have huge potential in domestic military and political survelliance applications. I'm sure Mr. Poindexter is just drooling all over himself at the possibilities.
    Damn, your system is slow this morning...

  • I'm very dissapointed. After reading the article to find out that cyborg rodents aren't as good as robots, all I have to say is:

    Rats!

  • Robotic rats (Score:4, Funny)

    by SteweyGriffin ( 634046 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @09:58AM (#4898545)
    Yay! Now we can play Lemmings for real!
  • Fabulous. There's an old saying referring to flowers, something about them being weeds until someone's found a use for them.

    I'm not saying rats or weeds are useless, of course... but I can already hear the massive campaign platforms and court cases.
    • Nah. Weeds are weeds because they're hard to kill. If you dig up weed, some of the roots will survive, and it will just come back again, whereas flowers are fragile from inbreeding and mutations, and will just die if you dig them up.

  • I have to say... (Score:5, Funny)

    by greechneb ( 574646 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @10:19AM (#4898693) Journal
    The thought of robotically controlled rats scares me somewhat...

    Although, this has been happening for a long time...

    That's basically what congress is, right, a bunch of rats controlled remotely by lobbyists, right? Of course that group of remotely controlled rats scares me too. I'm just gonna go hide in a cave with some real rats... I feel much safer there.
  • OK, roborats may have disadvantages, but is it just me, or this guy sounds amazingly derisive of the technology? Sounds to me like a cat defending his turf. I'm all for alternatives.
    Plus, he never makes an attempt to see the other side. Rats have advantages too; off the top of my head, (obviously) price. No matter how fine a rat it is, one rat will always cost on millionth (or less) of the cost of a robot. Also, they don't need to be rats; you could derive the technology to use, say, hummingbirds. I don't see a robot duplicating a hummingbird's flight capability and size, not to mention maneuverability. And, as I say, that's off the top of my head.
    I have a great respect for scientists, but it's really sad to see them involved in turf wars instead of seeking to increase cooperation. They're only humans, I guess. That's something robots would probably be better at.
    • We should replace the scientists by robots instead! Or by rats?

      (And I have a feeling that's how they handled this in Soviet Russia...)
    • Rats, that have to be looked after (lab cruelty is a no-no if you don't want to recieve letter bombs), transported, modified and fitted with little backpacks to carry the communications gear.

      I think the only difference between the rats and the robots here is the motive system and the motion control system. Everything else has to be developed and built anyway, so the costs aren't going to be that different (medical sensors are more expensive than motors I guess).

      The best cooperation here would be to study the brain functions of rats in a maze, and use that to build navigation models for robots.

  • Rats (Score:4, Funny)

    by Absurd Being ( 632190 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @10:28AM (#4898764) Journal
    So if I get trapped underground, I won't know if the horde of rats that just found me are there to gnaw me to death, or are advance scouts for a rescue team? Or both?
    • Oh, just wait until the normal rats learn to disguise themselves as roborats as a survival adaptation...

  • Initial testing of new rats... (Score:5, Funny)

    by levik ( 52444 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @10:33AM (#4898790) Homepage
    ... planned this winter in the greater NYC area, where the mechanized rodents are going to be used to supplant the city subways' aging rat population.

    "The critters just aren't as lively as they used to be," said a resident of the 34th street station who declined to give his name. It's about time they found some replacements.

    A spokesman for the MTA said that if the robotic rats were proven successful in the testing stages, other metropolitan areas would make the switch in the year to come.

    "We really expect these robotic rats to perform." he said. "They don't produce as much waste, and can draw power directly from the third rail."

    When asked about the comparatively high price of the robotic rats as compared to the freely available conventional ones, the official claimed that while the organic rats were free to aquire, the Total Cost of Onership was much higher, given the cleanup and maintenance costs.

    "You know, these robotic rats, they will never unionize, and we will not have any unrest among their ranks. Overall, we think this switch will reduce our rat-related expenditures by up to 40% over the next few years."

  • We just need to make cyborg snakes and cyborg nazis, and then all of Indiana Jones' worst fears will be made real. I don't know whether or not Indiana Jones will have to be made into a cyborg too though.

  • Not our place... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by c718333 ( 612217 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @10:46AM (#4898835)
    Just because animals can't speak up (with language, that is, I'm sure the rats made their displease known in many other universal ways that were ignored) this doesn't mean that we're free to mutilate them as we see fit. I applaud the fact that we're using technology to aid in disaster situations, but I just find it really twisted that we're forcing all these animals to suffer for it. Say what you will about rats being cheap, they're still living, intelligent beings that don't deserve to be fitted with skull caps and have their brains shocked. If you don't see any problem with the rats, how far away are we from doing this with cute, cuddly puppies or kittens?
    • Dogs and cats ALREADY serve humans after being trained using known reinforcement techniques. This is not really any different - different reinforcer, that is all.
      • Dogs and cats ALREADY serve humans after being trained using known reinforcement techniques

        Exposing the animal's brain and forcing it to lead a life with a metal skullcap bolted to its skull is quite different than teaching fido to fetch and using treats as reinforcement.

        No service dog is ever inflicted with pain to train it. Handlers/trainers bend over backwards to create a loving, caring environment for their animals. When the rescue dogs were searching the WTC ruins, they had to plant people in the rubble so the dogs could find them, all so the dogs wouldn't get too depressed and stop looking.

        • Exposing the animal's brain and forcing it to lead a life with a metal skullcap bolted to its skull is quite different than teaching fido to fetch and using treats as reinforcement.

          The animal would not even exist except that it was bred for research purposes. The animal's brain is not exposed - there are small burrholes made through which electrodes with 10-20 microns of exposed metal are inserted.

          From a behavioral viewpoint, the two techniques are inter-related. Activation of brain pathways with microelectrodes is just a step closer in potency compared with Scooby-snacks.

          No service dog is ever inflicted with pain to train it.

          Actually, most of them use choke collars at some point in training. Many of my friends that love their dogs use them, too. Pain is a part of life not just for lab animals, but for dogs and humans too. To think otherwise is incredibly naive. Now, it is a very good thing to minimize pain and suffering, and that is a responsibility of every person who interacts with animals. Or humans.

          Handlers/trainers bend over backwards to create a loving, caring environment for their animals.

          The environment for RoboRat is similarly caring. The rats are kept in clean environments, are well-fed, and have their health checked regularly and attended to. It is quite a step up from the wild rat. And, quite frankly, rats who have their reward pathways activated are REALLY HAPPY RATS.
    • You make quite and assumption when you call the rats "intelligent beings." Just because they can find food in a maze, it doesn't mean I will be sitting down and discussing philosophy with them. Rats are just creatures that unthinkingly respond to the stimuli presented to them. If we give them some new stimuli, I don't think it much affects the rats' way of life. And for the record, I don't see any problem with controlling "cute, cuddly puppies or kittens."
    • "Suffer", you say? A better description of their lives would be, "Perpetual ecstasy". The way this works is a small signal is put into the rat's brain. The rats are trained to know that if they do what these little signals say, they will be rewarded with a zap to the pleasure center of their brain. There is no negative reinforcement; the rats are never punished. They are taken good care of, and all in all they are some of the luckiest rats ever born.
    • Cats have been wired to purr and hiss with the press of a button. The U.S. government once tried to use cats for surveillance. Implanted a transmitter with the antenna in the tail. Didn't work though.

      I suppose that even with implants, cats are untrainable. Now dogs on the other hand ...

  • the possibilities (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tomzyk ( 158497 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @10:52AM (#4898850) Journal
    And imagine what combining THIS technology to others will results in... like the work being done on presthetic eyes. Instead of having a huge battery pack and camera and other electrical equipent strapped to a rodent's back, in the near future, this will all be miniaturized (of course) and the camera can actually BE the rodent's eyes, so all that may need to be external would be a powersource.

    A seemingly regular-looking rodent (of any other animal for that matter!) may in-fact be a secret agent!

    Ain't technology cool?!

  • Coming soon to a rescue service near you ! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Timesprout ( 579035 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @10:55AM (#4898865)
    Human Rescue : Have you located the victim ?
    Rat Rescue : munch munch, eh no, munch, not yet.
    Human Rescue : Whats that gnawing sound ?
    Rat Rescue : Gnawing sound ? What gnawing sound ? I dont hear anything.

  • I can hear the conversation in the labs now... (Score:3, Funny)

    by ACK!! ( 10229 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @11:10AM (#4898981) Journal
    Scientist 1:

    Ok see we get these rats but they are not just any old rats.

    They are robo-controlled rats, see.

    We use them in rescue missions and other noble pursuits.

    Scientist 2:

    Do you think they will figure we just glued lego blocks to the heads of trained rats?

    Scientist 1:

    Nah, they are too dumb to check.

    Yeah, something like that..

  • From the article:

    search-and-rescue robots did perform tasks at the WTC disaster site and were successful by any reasonable performance metric

    Number of lives saved?

    • Re:Success? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Mr_Dyqik ( 156524 )
      Which would be the number of rescue workers who didn't die in shifting rubble etc. checking on indications of possible survivors, plus the number of any survivors rescued who would other wise have died. How many rescue workers died after the robots arrived on the scene? How many would have been in danger looking for survivors if the robots had not been there?

  • Purrfect snack (Score:3, Funny)

    by magi ( 91730 ) on Monday December 16, 2002 @11:14AM (#4899017) Homepage Journal
    Rats are probably the most ideal animals for rescuing people from collapsed buildings -- they find you through the smallest cracks and the bonus is that you can eat them while waiting for the rescue crew dig you up.

    Only thing you'd need to check is whether the victims are allergic. While I kind of like waking up in middle of night because a rat is sitting on my head (has happened more than once), I and quite many other people would choke to death quite quickly if forced to live with a fat furry rat in a small cavity for a prolonged time.

    Cherish your rat [www.iki.fi].
    • But as the article points out, in many ways robots are better than any living creature. A rat can't get (or wouldn't go) through areas with temperatures higher than about 70 C, or without sufficient oxygen, and they can't sit deactivated for long periods of time.
      • "...in many ways robots are better than any living creature. ...[Rats] can't sit deactivated for long periods of time."

        Well, you can always hibernate the rats by putting them into a dark fridge at about 1..5C temperature.

        One psychology book used nicely scientific phrasing about such an experiment: "...20 specimen was used in the experiment. However, one of the test subjects became permanently inactive."

        That's a nice way to say it.

        Cherish your rat.
  • Is anyone else reminded of the Rat Things from Stephenson's Snow Crash?
  • I'm reading Introduction to AI Robotics right now.

    Seems good so far, although too many copy editing errors to make me really comfortable with it.
  • Using remote controlled rats reminds me of those controversial military dolphin programmes that both the Soviets [eco1.co.uk], and the Americans [highnorth.no] seemed to carry out.
    Even though I'm not exactly an animal rights activist this still all sounds a bit... unnecessary. Especially when there are alternatives.

    I worked briefly in a SAR robot project, while I was at Edinburgh University [ed.ac.uk]. Myself and two other MSc students got together and built 2 SAR robots, to participate in the SAR event at Robocup 2001 [cmu.edu], Seattle. Even though our project wasn't really ready in time (read, the heat-seeking robots rather chase the CNN cameraman than find victims, and didn't report at all to the base station) I did learn a lot from just being there.

    For example, I learnt how difficult it is to remote control a robot using only its on-board cameras/sensors. One of Murphy's Urbies [nasa.gov] was due for repair when its human-operator managed to drive it down a flight of stairs, and I quote Murphy, "without ever touching the stairs". :)
    And this difficulty is ever so larger when the robots go inside rubble, with lack of light, and the well known radio control problems/outages.
    Human control also limits the number of robots you can deploy, assuming you need 1 operator per robot.

    Autonomous robot swarms are only possible if the robots are small and cheap, so you can deploy dozens or hundreds and accept a number of 'losses'. But this approach has its own disadvantages, such as small size meaning less sensorial capabilities for example. What good are dozens of little crawlers that just step on top of the victim's heads without ever detecting them?

    In the event debriefing meeting, where sponsored teams had to make a small presentation, this Few_Big_Expensive vs many_small_cheap issue was debated. I believe there must be a compromise, and whoever finds the right balance will be half-way there.

    As far as rats... I'd rather hear about research into fluorescent heat-seeking 'intelligent' jelly, that is poured on top of the rubble, seeks victims, attaches itself around their body keeping them worm (but intelligent enough to stay away from eyes, hears, nose, and mouth) and nutritionally rich so the victim can eat it if required... ;)
  • What's that, Eeky?

    Jimmy fell down the well? Lead the way! Go on, boy. No! Not the cheese! SNAP! Oh, the humanity!

  • In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really
    good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change
    their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really
    do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are
    human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot
    recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.
    -- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address

    - this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...

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