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Put The Demoscene In Your DVD Player 356

Posted by Hemos from the lots-and-lots-of-electronica-to-be-heard dept.
Jason Scott writes "With the recent story on slashdot about a big demo party, it might be good to let everyone know about the absolutely incredible Mind Candy DVD, where a very dedicated group of people from "the scene" have spent two years painstaking recovering demos from obscurity, finding the old 286 and 386 hardware, installing the needed (obsolete) cards, and capturing them perfectly in full digital glory. They also have information on what exactly the "scene" is, in case you've missed this incredibly creative use of computers from the past 20 years. This whole process cost them thousands of dollars and untold hours. Check it out, see what you missed... or never forgot."
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Put The Demoscene In Your DVD Player More

Put The Demoscene In Your DVD Player

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  • Seizure Warnings? (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I can just see the product seizure warning labels now. ;)

  • If you want encoded Amiga demos... (Score:5, Informative)

    by antdude ( 79039 ) on Thursday January 09, 2003 @11:18PM (#5052635) Homepage Journal
    You can go to Ami Demos [planet-d.net] for DivX versions. Hopefully, Mind Candy DVD will make a DVD version. :)

  • Slashdotted at one post? Geez (Score:5, Informative)

    by GlassUser ( 190787 ) <slashdot AT glassuser DOT net> on Thursday January 09, 2003 @11:19PM (#5052638) Homepage Journal
    Bah, Google has no cash. Here's the text. Don't mod me up, I have plenty of karma.

    what is the demoscene?

    The computer demo scene consists of programmers, artists, musicians and enthusiasts who enjoy creating and/or being entertained by computer graphics-and-sound demonstration programs. These "demos", as they are called, are much like music videos for the computer and are often created by people in their late teens to early twenties. Many of them move on to careers in the computer/video game industry, or professional electronic art and music composition.
    demoparties

    Every so often, demo creators and fans alike get together for a few days, inside places ranging from school gymnasiums to sports arenas. They compete head-to-head with new demo, music, and art creations, exchange ideas, and most importantly, to have fun! These are some of the most popular hotspots for demosceners.
    The Gathering (Norway, Easter weekend) - Held inside a hall built for Olympic speed skating in 1994, with a roof constructed out of a giant viking ship! The Gathering has a reputation of being the largest LAN party in Norway, but many veteran Norsk sceners who were there when it started a decade ago still come back.
    Breakpoint (Germany, Easter weekend) - Held at a large abandoned military depot, this new party is a replacement for the legendary but now-defunct Mekka & Symposium party. It is expected to attract visitors from many countries with many computer platforms, even old 8-bit machines like the C64! The party will have a social atmosphere and will try to keep out pure gamers.
    Scene Event (Denmark, July) - Formerly known as "Summer Encounter", this Danish party is more known for its outdoor activities (tent cities, bbq) than indoor.. a Woodstock for computer geeks, if you will! Of course, it still has all the usual demo competitions.
    Assembly (Finland, early August) - One of the oldest demoparties will run its twelfth year in 2003, and some of the organizers have been there since the beginning. It's been known to attract some of the finest talent in the demoscene, and these days it attracts some of the finest company sponsors as well. Add seminars, live concerts and their own net-broadcasting TV station, and you have one of the most popular youth culture events in Finland today.
    demoscene links

    There's plenty of sites out there for demo addicts. For this volume, we'll focus on PC-oriented sites, though you'll be sure to find stuff on some other platforms as well. Demos - The Story So Far - New to the scene? This will be a good read, and there are some pics and screenshots to look at too.
    Scene.org - The largest Internet file repository for demos. FTP is available too, naturally.
    Orange Juice - This is a great site to find demosceners and parties on, and is always updated with the latest news.
    Pouet - A fully user-maintained site, with a huge database of demos and reviews.
    Two-Headed Squirrel - A very unique demo review site, interesting to read.
    Monostep (This is a demo) - Want to quickly grab some of the best and latest demos? This site has some good suggestions.
    Nectarine - Features streaming radio of demoscene "oldies" (computer MOD music and 8-bit compositions!) - a companion site to Orange Juice.
    GFXZone - For those interested in "pixeled" demoscene art, this site provides countless hours of gallery viewing.
    No Error - All the latest demoscene music news - trackers, sequencers, CD projects, and more.
    SceneSpot - A new site with news and forums, and home to the Static Line textfile magazine.
    Demoscene Outreach Group - A group of people aiming to get demos more public exposure, through venues like SIGGRAPH and E3.
    Freax - Another ambitious demo scene chronicle project - a giant BOOK (yes, the printed kind)

  • Flying donuts! (Score:3, Funny)

    by alexandre ( 53 ) on Thursday January 09, 2003 @11:19PM (#5052640) Journal
    woohoo, we can now enjoy full surround flying donuts on home videos... :-P

    are there any future crew demos on this? :)

  • endless loop? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Hack ( 637833 )
    Most of the demos i downloaded from BBSes back in the day were 64k intros, and before that on the 8-bits they were even tinier things usually attached to cracked games... And i seem to recall they were always on an endless loop. How can you make a DVD or DivX of demos without "fading out" after X repeats? How many repeats?

    I remember listening to the music on one demo on my 8-bit Amstrad years ago... The Equalizer demo i remember it was called. Just the same three (!) songs repeating over and over playing three simple square-waves coming out of that old Yamaha chip... Ahh those were the days.
    • And i seem to recall they were always on an endless loop. How can you make a DVD or DivX of demos without "fading out" after X repeats?

      On a couple of the older demos (Spacepigs Megademo, Chronologia), they had to cut them short or stop them before they repeated. In one modern demo (The Nonstop Ibiza Experience, by Orange) they faded to black during the repeating endpart.

  • I don't know about this (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Stanley Feinbaum ( 622232 ) <mister_feinbaum2 ... m ['l.c' in gap]> on Thursday January 09, 2003 @11:29PM (#5052685) Journal
    It's not very impressive watching a video of a demo. Half the glory of a demo is seeing how well it runs on your slow hardware. I was in awe the first time I saw a demo run off one floppy disk on an amiga500 and how AMAZING the graphics looked. But seeing a pre-recorded video would not have been impressive at all.

    • Design, Art & Music (Score:2, Interesting)

      by bLitzfeuer ( 318604 )
      You're missing the three fourths of what the demo scene is all about. Even the grandfather of the modern demo, the C=64 scroller, wasn't about performance but about the creativity, skill and advertisment of the cracker who opened up a game for disk trading without the xeroxed manuals.

      The demoscene now is a collaborations of multiple disciplines to make something that, ulitimately, is cool to watch. And that's what that DVD is. Something that will be cool to watch.

    • Re:I don't know about this (Score:5, Informative)

      by Trixter ( 9555 ) on Friday January 10, 2003 @01:13AM (#5053073) Homepage
      We wanted to do this for a couple of reasons, but the two main ones were archival and convenience. PC demos ran at different rates on different hardware, and some demos didn't run 100% properly on ANY hardware except the coder's machine (and maybe the compo machine). So we went through the trouble of "getting them all right" once and for all. In fact, some demos were captured up to 9 different ways/combinations and the results were edited together, so the demo could be seen probably as the author intended and not how it actually ran on any one box. A few demos were even interpolated across the time domain using motion vectors (I computed motion vectors for each logical grouping of pixels and synthesized frames based on their motion), so some scenes actually run at the full 60Hz when they never did on the PC. The best example of this is Second Reality's end spaceship vector flyby scene -- the original runs at 35 FPS no matter how fast a machine you run it on, but on the DVD it "runs" at 60Hz. Run the two side-by-side and you can tell the difference.

      Also, I disagree with seeing them on DVD -- they were impressive running on your Amiga, why wouldn't a video of them running on your Amiga be less impressive? It's still the same Amiga that's generating the video...
    • Then I have something for you. Go and get fr-019 from www.farb-rausch.com. It uses (and requires) 3d hardware, however it is still amazing since it is only a 64k executable. 64k compos have been around forever but these guys really take it to a whole new level. I feel that this is their best work, but they ahve other impressive 64k peices too.
    • Half the glory of a demo is seeing how well it runs on your slow hardware.

      I think it would be more nostalgic if there was a "party version" of each demo, where the demo crashes about half way through.

      On a serious note, it would be cool if there was some "making of" info on the disc, even if it's just text. And maybe a DVD-ROM track with all the demos?
      • All but a very small few of the demos have an audio commentary, where a group of sceners talk about the demo while it's running, describing it's history, why it was important, and occasionally details about what a pain it was to capture...

        There is also some information on the disc about the actual making of the disc as well, with a lot of detail and moving diagrams.. It's really quite interesting...

  • list of demos (Score:5, Informative)

    by glob ( 23034 ) on Thursday January 09, 2003 @11:35PM (#5052726) Homepage Journal
    from http://www.mindcandydvd.com/demos [mindcandydvd.com]

    side one: transcendental vistas

    Title / Group
    Wonder / Sunflower
    604 / AND, Sly, SynSUN
    Kosmiset Avaruus Sienet / Haujobb
    Further / Moppi Productions
    Chrome / Damage
    Volatile / Addict
    Tesla / Sunflower
    Broadband / T-Rex
    Mikrostrange / Haujobb
    Moral Hard Candy / Blasphemy
    TE-2RB / TPOLM
    Le Petit Prince / Kolor
    Energia / Sunflower
    Gerbera / Moppi Productions
    Lapsus / Maturefurk
    Enlight the Surreal / Noice
    Experimental / Wipe
    Live Evil / Mandula
    The Nonstop Ibiza Experience / Orange
    Codename Chinadoll / Katastro.fi
    Art / Haujobb
    Kasparov / Elitegroup
    Total Time (h:m:s) - 1:42:05

    side two: kickin' it oldschool

    Title / Group
    Second Reality / Future Crew
    Megademo / The Space Pigs
    Cronologia / Cascada
    Unreal / Future Crew
    Amnesia / Renaissance
    Panic / Future Crew
    Crystal Dream 2 / Triton
    Show / Majic 12
    Verses / Electromotive Force
    Dope / Complex
    X14 / Orange
    Stars: Wonders of the World / Nooon
    Reve / Pulse
    Paimen / COMA
    Inside / CNCD
    Megablast / Orange
    303 / Acme
    Saint / Halcyon & Da Jormas
    Square / Pulse
    Riprap / Exceed
    Total Time (h:m:s) - 2:05:19

    • My #2 favorite interview question is: "Who is/was the Future Crew?"

      My #1 (unrelated) is: "Did you take things apart a a kid?"

      I didn't get real into the Demo scene, but the Future Crew put out such amazing stuff.
    • Wow! That one brings back some memories. It was the first demo that really impressed me on the PC. I kept seeing Amiga demos that always looked pretty cool and was miffed because I knew the PC could do as well/better. Then Second Reality came along. What a demo. Running it on a 386 with amplified audio was quite an experience in them days. Then the 486 came along and it got even better. Then the pentium came along and, poof, nothing. Wish I could see/hear that one again.

  • Other Questions People Will Have...... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Jason Scott ( 18815 ) on Thursday January 09, 2003 @11:45PM (#5052777) Homepage
    Here's some other questions people might have. I'll do my best to head them off:

    What are you, Jason Scott, getting out of all this?

    I am working on a Documentary about BBSes [bbsdocumentary.com] and run a site about 1980's BBSes [textfiles.com] and have a soft spot for anyone who dedicates so much time to bringing back computer history, as I'm doing myself. I know how much they spent in money on this (equipment, DVD pressing) and they went for tip-top quality in all of it, and I think this should be rewarded. Slashdot brings people to a site that might otherwise be overlooked.

    What about the Amiga, C-64 and other machines?

    I know they have plans to do those machines as well for the next in the series; that's why it's Volume 1. If this one sells well, they can afford to do another one. Therefore it's important that everyone who could want a DVD like this know about it. I know they're working on the technical issues of taking video output from these machines and making them look good.

    Big deal, they hooked a VCR to a PC

    No, that is not the case! When the site lightens up, and you read all they had to keep track of to make the demos look decent on a DVD, you will understand what a massive undertaking this is. Flicker, color-quality, even the problems of general radio interference across the video cables.... they had to handle all these problems, find solutions, and deal with them.

    Who are these people?

    If it means something to you, these folks are the driving forces behind the Hornet Archive and Mobygames [mobygames.com]. They care. They care a lot.

  • "...finding the old 286 and 386 hardware..." (Score:5, Funny)

    by Robber Baron ( 112304 ) on Thursday January 09, 2003 @11:49PM (#5052792) Homepage
    ...and hosting their site on it!

  • And a few others.... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Jason Scott ( 18815 ) on Thursday January 09, 2003 @11:54PM (#5052812) Homepage
    Sorry, forgot a couple.

    Did they get permission to sell these movies of demos?

    Yes, they did. That's why a couple are not on there. Some people didn't give permission. Most groups were very excited to be a part of this project, obviously.

    Movies of demos suck, I want the originals.

    Besides having copies on the Mind Candy site of all the demos, all of the demos exist in one way or another at scene.org [scene.org]. But be warned, a lot of the older ones won't work on your 2.5Ghz Windows XP box; that's why it was so difficult to get their hands on JUST the right hardware to get these demos in the first place. As time goes on, it will be more and more difficult, but now we have something to refer to. And man, is it tasty.

  • Ordering Them (Score:5, Informative)

    by Jason Scott ( 18815 ) on Thursday January 09, 2003 @11:58PM (#5052828) Homepage
    Finally, here's some URLs for ordering the DVD:

    Maz-Sound [maz-sound.com]
    Fusecon [fusecon.com]

    and they have a Forum [fusecon.com] on the Fusecon site to post messages about them.

    I've had this DVD for a couple weeks now and it hasn't left the player once.

  • in-depth review (Score:4, Informative)

    by Luxo ( 640075 ) on Friday January 10, 2003 @12:06AM (#5052871) Homepage
    There are a couple in-depth reviews in this text mag if anyone's interested.

    ftp://ftp.scenespot.org/static_line/issues/sl-042. txt [scenespot.org]

  • I received this DVD a few weeks ago... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ron_aegis ( 636304 ) on Friday January 10, 2003 @12:18AM (#5052906)
    ...And it's really good! The quality is great, all demos appear real good on the TV, they've done a great job of converting them.

    The choice of demos is good. On the 1st side, the theme is "old era" demos running under DOS (from early Future Crew stuff to more recent like Pulse or Orange). And on the 2nd side, there is the "new" era demos, all 3D, which I'm not a huge fan of, so I haven't really checked them out but from what I saw, they look pretty good.

    The documentary is pretty good too, it does a great job of describing the demo scene and how it evolved from 1992 to now. Some Future Crew members are interviewed in there.

    Also, kudos for them for being able to correctly get the output signal for the X14 demo by Orange; this demo was using a weird refresh rate to simulate more colors.

    Overall, I think the DVD is really worth it if you have been/are in the PC demoscene. Even only for the fact that you can watch some great old DOS demos (like 2nd Reality or X14) without having to set up an old computer for the task.

    • Re:I received this DVD a few weeks ago... (Score:5, Informative)

      by Trixter ( 9555 ) on Friday January 10, 2003 @01:38AM (#5053137) Homepage
      "correctly get the output signal for the X14 demo"

      Thank god someone noticed :-) This was very hard work as almost every method we tried (VGA TV output, scan converters, etc.) "interpreted" the 320x400 mode and the output was unusable. I eventually found a super-cheap scan converter that allowed me to turn off all filtering, and then I did some post-processing of my own to make it presentable.
  • I am just wondering about the fact that someone gets into a lot of work of doing the recording and all, and It's a very cool idea, I thought about doing that myself with all of my amiga hardware, but I wanted something better than DVD since it's still crunches a tad, and I'd have to remaster the uncompressed footage to the newer standard...

    but the main thing that stopped me, consideration of making money with other's work without being able to retrace everyone to get the proper permissions to do so...

    any thoughts on that?
    • You're exactly right. Andy Voss deserves major props for his sluthing in tracking down all the demo groups wanted on the disc. This was especially hard with the older demos, since most of those guys moved on to Real Life(tm) long ago, and to varying degrees lost touch with the scene. He even went to Helsinki in August to get a hold of a few stragglers. In particular, Dope and Stars were last minute permissions that almost slipped. Personally, getting Stars on there makes the whole thing worth while. I made the featurette, by the way. These guys behind the DVD project care more about the scene than you probably imagine. We're taking no profit from Volume 1; it goes straight into the Volume 2 budget. Jeremy
    • but the main thing that stopped me, consideration of making money with other's work without being able to retrace everyone to get the proper permissions to do so...

      Bascially, what Luxo said in his post [slashdot.org] -- Andy Voss went to the ends of the earth to get permission.

      Also, the Demoscene tradition regarding CD-ROMs (and now DVDs) of scene productions is if your work is on the disc, you or your group gets a free one. I believe that is the case with Mindcandy as well.

  • Why This Is Cool (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Myriad ( 89793 ) <(myriad) (at) (thebsod.com)> on Friday January 10, 2003 @12:23AM (#5052926) Homepage
    Ok, I know a lot of people are posting that this must be some kind of joke, that it's a stupid idea, etc etc.

    Here is why I think this is cool: history, art.

    To those of use who have been tinkering since the days before the PC will likely remember demos and what they meant.

    They were the cutting edge, pushing technology to the max and sometimes beyond (Future Crew, in the first Unreal demo, came up with trick that allowed them to display a very large number of colours on the screen simultaneously. This was around the EGA and VGA 16 days IIRC. What they did, when they did it, was thought to have been impossible)

    When you wanted to see what the next games would be able to do, you watched the latest demos. That was the ultimate demonstration of what the hardware could do.

    It was also totally non-commercial. No sponsors, no ads. Just groups of people finding out what their boxes could do... artistically. That was the best part. It wasn't just a technical demonstration, it was art, with incredibly graphics, music, and animations.

    One of the few commercial entities to get involved in any way was Advanced Gravis, who gave away Gravis Ultrasound soundcards to demo & game makers, no strings attached, then backed it up with great tech support!

    So what does this matter now? It's a great example of what efficient coding can do. Some of these things were under 16k! Inspiration too, check out what can be done if you try.

    And, of course, to those of us who remember it's a great chance to look back on something that gave us a lot of joy. I don't know how many hours I spent downloading demos on my C64 and PC... 'borrowing' access to Carleton Universities net access so I could download Second Reality when it first came out... it was fun. It's not really practical to configure the old hardware to play them again... it could take a lot of tweeking.

    And hey, if anyone has the Circle A demo for the C64 drop me a mail!

    (btw, I realize the demo scene isn't dead, but it doesn't seem to have the same following it once did. Besides, I'm referring to having a collection of all the old demos not just the latest ones)

  • Aaaaahhhhh... (Score:2, Funny)

    by JollyTX ( 103289 )
    ....that's so cute. PC people think they had a demo scene!

    Of course, most people know that the only scene was the Commodore/Atari one.
  • I remember demos by groups such as "Future Crew" that had awesome real-time 3D graphics that displayed beautifully on my 386 and 486 computers. Man I miss the old demo scene!

  • Luminati? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ClioCJS ( 264898 )
    This is a bit off topic, and I apoligize.

    But does anyone know where to get LUMINATI.exe? This was always my favorite. It had about 3 layers of graphics and did so by tinkering with the graphics card in such a way that it was impossible to run under windows.
    Since I upgraded my (final) dos box to Win95 (thus ruining it), I have never been able to run it. Recently my grandfather died, and I inhereted his 486, but alas it is too slow to run it well. (His life's work fits on one cd, kinda sad.)

    Anyway, if anyone could point me in the right direction it would be worth losing some karma over... :)

  • Now let's have a DVD with Amiga and C64 demos! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kobotronic ( 240246 ) on Friday January 10, 2003 @01:52AM (#5053171)
    The PC demos are really nice looking, and kudos to everyone involved with the production of this DVD. PC demos just don't interest me near as much as that which came before them.

    To me, the real Scene flourished in Northern Europe back in the 8 and 16 bit days, and it peaked sometime in the early 1990s, just before the PC demos started to trickle in with chunky imitations of yesteryear's cool.

    The "real" Scene hardware in those days were anemic, RAM cramped microcomputers with CPU clocks in the single-digit MHz range. The PC was still Dad's chunky, sensible spreadsheet processor, and the God Machines were the immortal C64 and the (for its day) multi-media rich Amiga.

    Coders, musicians and pixel artists all had their share of the old school Scene glory;

    The coders, because they had

    The musicians, because they had to program their tunes and work miracles with 3 or 4 channels and make their own 8-bit samples with amazingly primitive technology and software.
    • Bollocks, how retarded it feels to accidentally click the submit button before you're done writing. Now I'm just not bothered to write the rest of my dumb and irrelevant little piece. I'll just go away and play with WinUAE now. :)

  • Thought/ Observation: (Score:3, Interesting)

    by goingincirclez ( 639915 ) <goingincirclezNO@SPAMmsn.com> on Friday January 10, 2003 @02:33AM (#5053258)
    I remember when I got my fiorst pc (a packard bell 486 in 1993), one of my friends was all drool-faced and couldn't wait to run these "demos" on it. Of course I didn't know what the hell he was talking about, but I was freakin impressed to say the least. Beautiful imagery, funky sounds, ray-tracings... wow.

    I had no idea back then what kind of work it took to make those things. Seems like they did even more work to do it all over again, finding hardware and building bozes and all that.

    So why didn't they use emulation? If these people were so damn good, to literally push hardware and programming skills beyond their limitations, surely programming an emulator to run the code thru today's harware couldn't be too much of a stretch. Heck, it would seem right up the proverbial alley: a logical progression, making the most of today's hardware and programming abilities to duplicate stuff that no longer exists. (Or would that be a regression, to take today's stuff and make it run like a 286? ARRGH I hate contradicting myself)

    Of course I can appreciate that maybe some hardware had strange nuances just just can't be matched thru emulation. But has anyone ever given it a try?

  • Quasar Soft (Score:2, Interesting)

    by l0wland ( 463243 )
    Ow man, this gives me goosebumps ! Cool to see that this scene still exists ! In the late eightees I was part of the Quasar Soft demogroup in The Netherlands. We mainly used C64, Amiga 500 and MSX.

    I doubt that any of the members ever saved those 5.25" or 3.5" floppies, which really is too bad. But what stunned me most is that I discovered the music that we created and used (using Rob Hubbard's Routine). For those interested, you can find some of our music here:

    http://exotica.fix.no/tunes/HVSC/VARIOUS-S-Z-Selle s_Ward.html [exotica.fix.no]

    You need a SID-player to hear it, and that's just what I'm going to do right now :-)

    Man, I'm getting old....

  • Cache cow (Score:4, Funny)

    by bLanark ( 123342 ) on Friday January 10, 2003 @06:14AM (#5053739)
    One of the mirrored files is coming from cache.cow.net. Made me smile.

  • UGH, Real Media!? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by autopr0n ( 534291 ) on Friday January 10, 2003 @06:32AM (#5053787) Homepage Journal
    Why are the trailers released in Real Crap format and not something more geek friendly, like Divx?

    • There were MPEG1- and MPEG2-trailers out once, but I guess they're down because they suck too much bandwidth. :-)

      /* Steinar */

    • I intentionally chose RealMedia because it has the widest playback platform support across OSes and CPUs. That, and I quite deliberately boycott DivX because it has done more to harm desktop video than help it.

      I would not have a problem with a true, pure, MPEG-4 Simple Profile or Advanced Simple Profile video, but I refuse to wrap it in or encode it with DivX. I'll get to work on one and hopefully it will be available in a few hours.

  • Buy this DVD. It's cheap, amazing, and furthermore (Score:4, Insightful)

    by 2Flower ( 216318 ) on Friday January 10, 2003 @09:06AM (#5054288) Homepage

    ...if you do buy it, it's one more purchase towards the break-even point, and that'll enable Trixter and his band of psychotic vidcap guys to make volume two.

    The DVD doesn't cost too much, has no CSS encoding or region encoding making it quite geek-friendly. It runs demos you'll likely never be able to see again due to obsolete hardware issues. It runs modern ones you can show off to your less knowledgeable friends to ooh and aah them. The running audio commentary provides plenty of amusing anecdotes about the scene, some great background information, and in some cases comments directly from those responsible for the video itself.

    In short, it's worth it. So very, very worth it. And if you want an Amiga or C64 disc, the best thing you can do is buy this PC disc; without profit from this DVD there won't be a v2.

  • Has to be Stash [pouet.net].
    I think you need a GUS to get the full effect of the demo with sound, but with how bloated software is these days, it's incredible how much stuff is packed into 64KB here!

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