Study Finds Tivo Less of a Threat to Advertisers 227
talboito writes "AdAge.com reports that an internal study by Proctor and Gamble concludes that Tivo viewers who fast forward through ads recall their content at similar rates as those watching at normal speeds. The article concludes with a choice quote by Proctor and Gamble's former head of research on the significance of the results; "[Proctor and Gamble] may still go out and try to browbeat the networks into giving them a lower CPM [cost per thousand viewers] on the basis of it, but they'd want to know either way.""
so (Score:4, Offtopic)
Re:so (Score:5, Funny)
I hope not, blipverts can cause your head to explode.
Re:so (Score:4, Informative)
Anyway, this doesn't suprise me (except that P&G released the study results). What does surpise me is that you can still use a ReplayTV (Tivo's cousin) and automatically skip all commercials in live (time-shifted) or recorded programming.
It works about 95% of the time on 90% of the shows. 75% of the time on 10% of shows. And, for when it fails, there's the 30s jump button (also available, but undocumented/unsupported on Tivo with a minor hack/code entry).
I see so few commercials I actually started to miss them and now occasionally turn off auto commercial advance, especially during shows that tend to have cool/relevant commercials (such as The Daily Show).
Perhaps even more surprising is that you can send recorded tv shows (or whatever) to another replay using built-in features (ip based), which is especially cool using broadband with the built-in ethernet. You can also program the thing from anywhere over the web if you use the network connection (modem is included too).
Most amazing, though, is that you can use OS software to send mpg's to/from your PC! [sourceforge.net]. Any PC. It's rather cool.
Sorry for the replayTV commercial, but it really is that cool. Tivo is cool too, though not quite as apt to enrage The Man as replayTV (no auto commercial advance on Tivo -- you have to press a button to skip, either 30s jump or FF). And no sending shows anywhere, to PC's or other Tivos. Both are ultra-hackable though, so if you want one, get the smallest/cheapest (40hr) and add a bigger drive (200GB = 200Hrs =~ +$200).
I know replay (sonic Blue) is getting sued over these features, but so far it hasn't affected my service (and I've backed up my system just in case, and found server emulation that will be released if needed). Does anyone have an update on the lawsuit?
Ads on TV (Score:5, Interesting)
However, I think the recall has something to do with recognising an ad that youve seen previously, and the FFW glimpse prods your memory back to that ad - hence achieving brand recognition, which is the overall goal. But just seeing the ad in FFW only, probably wouldnt get the desired effect, especially with no sound.
Re:Ads on TV (Score:2)
That's a good point, branding is alot more difficult starting out, but for brands that are already established, it's great 'news'.
Re:Ads on TV (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps. But both my wife and myself have been FF'ing through commercials (at 20x - 2x is too slow, 60x usually too fast) and will see a commercial that either looks interesting, is for some product we want to watch commercials for (generally her employer or former employer), or have heard about and want to watch (like the Nike soccer streaker commercial).
Obviously it's only the first one that would be of interest to advertisers - the second is a non-sell and the third requires someone to have watched it in the first place. And while the first one doesn't happen very often, neither does our watching commercials at all. I'd say it's about equal in occurance to the others.
Fact of the matter is, however, most commercials are even crappier than most shows. I only watch the shows I like. I've been stuck watching commercials at friends' and relatives' houses and... wow... no wonder so many people think TV sucks.
Blipverts? (Score:2)
I'm spooked every time I see those shorts on TLC, where the announcer says some tagline for some product, but they've electronically sped up so that the guy sounds like he's shilling Mirco Machines. Life imitating Art indeed...
Re:Ads on TV (Score:3, Insightful)
Now I haven't owned a TV in almost a year. My TV dosage comes in small one or two hour bursts when I stop over my Mom's place.
All I see are Ads for Beer, Computers, Cars, and Perscription drugs for old people. I'm pushing 30, I think most beer sold in the US is weasle piss, I'm set in my ways with scratch-built linux boxes, and I intend on driving my 3 year old car
Hmm... Blip-verts! (Score:1, Redundant)
Hmm... Does this make anyone else think of the blip-verts in Max Headroom?
I can just see the advertising agency actually making something like that after this study.
odd moderation (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't mean to whine, but this just boggles my mind.
Re:odd moderation (Score:2)
If one is a moderator not viewing in chronological order, for heaven's sake look at the dates before moderating redundant.
Actually, due to the way threads are handled, look at the dates no matter how the ordering is.
Blipverts (Score:5, Insightful)
If recall is just as good in fast-forward mode, advertisers should wonder why they need to pay for 30-second slots :-)
cause they aren't dumb ;-) (Score:2)
Re:Blipverts (Score:5, Insightful)
It's sort of like those guys who say, "I drive better when I'm drunk, because I really have to focus on what I'm doing..." Yeah.
Re:Blipverts (Score:2)
Maybe 5 seconds if it's a long ad sequence.
Fast forwarding through them takes too long.
Re:Blipverts (Score:2)
In that case... (Score:1, Interesting)
Regardless of their internal report, Tivo-like devices in the long run will be the demise of the 30-second commercial and commercial breaks.
Product placement is the unfortunate future.
new idea (Score:1)
Re:new idea (Score:2)
Re:new idea (Score:2)
Besides, the current HBO/Showtime schedule is far too repetitive. It was much more varied in the 70's and 80's.
Bizarro Headroom (Score:3, Funny)
Proof that the TV ads are as vacuous as they seem (Score:4, Funny)
-- shayborg
IANA Brain Guy (Score:1)
Which is also, incidentally why the lizrd brain is prone to violent outbursts. Sexy outbursts too!
Tivo Brings 20% efficiency (Score:1)
On a only slightly more serious note, I always try to record the limited number of shows that I watch with the intent to avoid commercials. (Although I own a $70.00 VCR rather than a tivo) The only exception to this rule is the news.
great taste - less filling (Score:4, Insightful)
you know, I have tivo and hate ads, yet I always stop fast forwarding when the "great taste-less filling" ad comes up ... (for those that haven't heard about it, it is with two hot babes that beat each other up over beer)
I also regulary watch the Mitsubishi ads too, those are pretty fun
all we need are fun ads
h.Heh... so which is it?... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:great taste - less filling (Score:4, Insightful)
'People hardly recall anything' (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, this doesn't seem to surprising to me. Just getting the image of your brand into someone's head is very important. How often can you tell what an advertisment is for, even with, say, the audio muted? Quite often for me.
I'll make the obligatory reference to blip-verts now, since we're talking about ads and speed. =)
Re: Blipverts aren't the thing (Score:2)
New feature (Score:5, Funny)
Re:New feature (Score:2)
I was thinking about reading versus TV-viewing, and realized that TV's problem is that it just keeps going no matter what. Where as, with text, it takes no effort to stop the progress.
It might be a very good idea to detect eye movement just enough that your tivo can tell if you are paying attention or not. If you are distracted, and look at something else, the Tivo can pause the show. In addition, if your eyes are closed for more than a few m
Re:New feature (Score:2)
And to pause the main program when you get up to use the auto-flush urinal because of too many beers...
Makes sense. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Makes sense. (Score:4, Interesting)
For the rest of the images, they can just subtly change the colors enough that it should force the mpeg encoder to encode a new P frame instead of another I frame. It wouldn't be noticeably visible to the viewer, but it would allow some amount of control as to which frames are seen by the PVR user.
I can't seem to google it, but there's been some interesting research into how to make ads effective for both regular-time viewing, and PVR fast-forward viewing.
Re:Makes sense. (Score:2)
Re:Makes sense. (Score:2)
Hmmm.. you must not have a Tivo. On the top, fast forward setting (the one I use the most), it moves at 1 minute per second. That's about 2 commercials per second.
As much as I hate commercials, I have to say that this study is pure bullshit. Of course my nerves of pure playstion might be a little
Re:Makes sense. (Score:2)
Given that your average television gives about 24 frames per second, that would mean about 12 frames per commercial. I'm pretty sure that you can't absorb any sort of content in 12 frames...
We're already branded (Score:2)
I like to take it up a notch and silently think to myself, "Crap, crap, crap" as the commercials pass by. A little counter-conditioning can't hurt.
I don't even know why we even have an ad industry. I'm much more impressed by something as simple as, "This show i
Re:Makes sense. (Score:2)
This is a reflection of the Adds not Tivo (Score:5, Insightful)
The conscious decision to fast forward makes more of a mental impact then dozing thru the whole litany of Smiling happy people getting full filled thru spot less shirts.
This should be read as scathing critique of the add agencies ability not something to do with Tivo.
I once read that the metabolism of a typical teenager watching TV, is lower that same person sleeping. (can find it via google)
Go ahead download some illegal content from Kazaa at least it will stimulate our intellect.
Only fast forwarding through ads (Score:4, Interesting)
Also, what I found more interesting was that in their testing, people barely remembered anything. So it makes sense why commercials are getting more annoying, since it will stick in your head longer.
Re:Only fast forwarding through ads (Score:2)
The inventor of the Pause Button (Score:5, Interesting)
Cause sometimes the only time I can watch CSI: Miami is Saturday at 9am.
Re:The inventor of the Pause Button (Score:2)
loops which are *very* annoying.
Rich
So there... (Score:2)
And they've given you exactly 48 hrs to do it.
At least people are watching the TiVo'd ads (Score:4, Interesting)
Then, of course, 9 times out of 10 you overshoot, and have to run back, meaning that you actually get most of the last ad at regular speed (I can already hear the ad execs charging more for the last spot)
Compare this to 'regular' viewing where many, many people get up for a bathroom break, grab a drink, bite to eat, even (gasp!) converse amongst themselves during the commercial break and therefore don't see ANY ads at all.
Of course, this won't result in the 1/5 duration ad since those TiVo users will now see them at 1/25 normal speed and there has to be a point where there aren't enough frames for the human eye to discern the content - that is until you start talking subliminal messaging, which is a whole other issue.
Re:At least people are watching the TiVo'd ads (Score:2, Redundant)
Actually, it surprises me we haven't seen slow-motion ads, designed to appear normal to someone fast forwarding through them. The first few to do this at normal speed will have folks without a TiVo scratching their heads (and thus, watching the ad), and those with a TiVo will do the same at seeing an ad look "normal" at 5x regular speed.
The real breakthrough, though, will come when someone realizes that you can have ads that look correct at normal and
Re:At least people are watching the TiVo'd ads (Score:2)
What? TiVo has overshoot adjustment built in, where it starts regular play a little bit BEFORE where you hit play to get out of FFW... it's rather accurate at resetting itself right back to the fade in of your program.... and if you DO hit it too late, the instant recall button takes you back 8 seconds e
Re:At least people are watching the TiVo'd ads (Score:2)
Which issue are you referring to?
The issue that subliminal messaging is evil, will make you kill your cat, buy more popcorn, and do just about anything the evil advertisers care to tell you to do?
Or the isse that the subliminal effect has never been proven an is actaully an urban myth [snopes.com].
LA Times article (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:LA Times article (Score:2)
"Cable monopolies" have nothing to do with it. Tivo components (HD's and mpeg encoders) are simply at a different point in the manufacturing curve from DVD.
Re:LA Times article (Score:2)
That's just fucking bizzare... (Score:5, Informative)
Hmm... That's just fucking bizzare.... especially since Comcast and Cox (2 of the top cable companies [tracetools.com]... especially since Comcast now owns AT&T) are all Tivo investors [com.com].
Re:That's just fucking bizzare... (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure, but the way AT&T cable was built means it is 40+ different cable systems, right down to the CPE. So they need 40+ different TiVo boxes to get the same sort of features that DirecTV gets (high level of integration so you don't need to tell the TiVo what channes you do/don't get, and so it never misses a channel change, and so it can record mroe the
Re:That's just fucking bizzare... (Score:2)
Plus you get to pay either a high one-time fee or a moderately high monthly fee for the service.
In other words, the price point is too high for a lot of people and that affects penetration.
'Course if you do have a Tivo you'll find that it changes the whole way you watch TV. I didn't believe it until I tried it.
Re:LA Times article (Score:2)
Re:LA Times article (Score:2)
Re:LA Times article (Score:2, Informative)
If you're that concerned, you can connect a dumb terminal to the serial port of the Tivo and check just what data it's including in the upload batches. People in this forum [tivocommunity.com] would be able to help you further.
Don't you love spin ? (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, the majority of readers who find the headline somehow compatible with their world view will go on and on about it
Re:Don't you love spin ? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Don't you love spin ? (Score:2)
Everybody knows that 83.6% of statistics are made up on the spot.
I'll say it again... (Score:5, Insightful)
Next up: ads designed for fast-forward mode (Score:5, Funny)
Of course, Tivo will immediately counter with a fast-fast-forward mode for such ads, which will be met with even more slowed-down spots, and so on...
Re:Next up: ads designed for fast-forward mode (Score:2)
With the current TiVo, you can FF at up to 60x. So for 30 seconds, you'd need to buy a HALF HOUR of airtime. That's not a spot, that's an infoommercial... and good luck buying one in prime time!
Besides, what's the point, if retention is the same?
Personally, I already knew (anecdotally) what P&G found. I had noticed that I was more aware of what was being advertised after I got my TiVo. A little common sense made it clear why: I'm paying close attention to the screen during the FF. Ever see the "M
Re:Next up: ads designed for fast-forward mode (Score:2)
This came out years ago.
For about a year before I owned a ReplayTV, I was taping everything I watched (I'd work long hours, back when stocks fell out of the sky in the mid-late 90s). I remember seeing a commercial for the new VW Beetle, which was just a flower filling most of the screen, and spinning slowly.
I don't think they do it, though (Score:2)
They've all said "NO", but a couple indicated they thought it would be worth investigating. But since the spots are all evaluated by the client at 1x, it's hard to make arguments about 15x comprehension when you
Re:I don't think they do it, though (Score:2)
30 second skip hack (Score:4, Informative)
(dunno what that means? google "tivo 30 second skip hack")
I didn't like fast forwarding thru commercials because I had to pay too much attention. But now I just hit that little time-warp button 8 times and walla, i'm back to watching the show.
Only time I watch commercials is when I recognize one I like and then instant-replay jump back to its start.
Re:30 second skip hack (Score:2)
Yes, but did P&G know about the right-left-right-left up-down-up-down A-B-A-B select-start hack? Oh, wait, you weren't talking about Street Fighter?
Re:30 second skip hack (Score:2)
-Graham
Re:30 second skip hack (Score:2)
"forward" "forward" "forward" "forward" (30 seconds each).
Oops... in the show already! "back" "back" (8 seconds each). Ahh, tail of the last commercial.
It's very nice that the two skip buttons have different skip lengths. I do that dance at every commercial break. Very fun.
Re:30 second skip hack (Score:2)
One thing we've noticed is that some shows no longer have constant length commercial breaks. You get used to hitting "skip" 4 times for a 2 minute break, then they throw in a 1:30 break instead and you overshoot by 30 seconds. That takes a lot more "skip back" presses to reset.
Voila (Score:2, Insightful)
It's french. It means basically "there it is". When used as an interjection in English it is used to call attention to something [reference.com]. It is not walla. Though, I guess if you're part of the "freedom fries" crowd you need a new word... Hmm... maybe "Freedomla!"
Anyhow, back to that 30 second skip button. I use mine so often I'm surprised the decal on the button hasn't come off. The only annoyance is that most commercials aren't 4 minutes, some are 3, some are 2, some are even 3 1/2. Luckily when I go
You have to be kidding (Score:2, Funny)
Crap like this makes me want to scream at the lab. I slave for my sh*thead supervisor, and this is what others get paid to research?! I hope all they die in trafic accident.
Re:You have to be kidding (Score:2)
We haven't cured cancer because we don't know how. Even moreso than in writing software, cancer cannot be cured simply by throwing money and man-years at it.
We haven't gone back to the moon because, really, we don't have a reason to go. It's a risky, irradiating trip, and getting used to LEO inside the Van Allen belts is enough technological achievement for the moment (Though we should be back on the moon by 2013, thanks to Europe and China.)
Crap like this makes me want to scre
2 words (Score:2, Insightful)
Another three words (Score:2)
It's not like we haven't [slashdot.org] seen [chaparraltree.com] this [businessweek.com] before [50megs.com]. Remember those shows back in the 60's? Maybe not, perhaps (like me) you werent born yet. However, the revenue model for advertising requires a "blank spot" to allow affiliated stations to do localized adverts, and to allow for updated advertising (ie, more income) on repeat showings, and syndicated programs (we're talking years and years of potential advertising income from a single TV show).
Consequently, this leaves the "ad spot" model
Tivo means you can't ignore the ads... (Score:2)
Also, the author's comment regarding triple fast forward is of limited relevance. The faster you FF, the more nimble you have to be in order to avoid going too far and needing to backtrack. It's not reasonable to assume that everyone can FF commercials at full FF speed.
The author also doesn't acknowledge the possibili
They could improve recall. (Score:2)
--
This post sponsored by Caffeine.
At what ffw speed? (Score:2)
Sometimes, I actually want to watch commericals... (Score:4, Insightful)
Incidentally, I just realized that we've since purchased two Sprint PCS cell phones. Hmmm...
Anyway, I think this is just a challenge to marketers and ad-makers: make interesting commericials. I mean, come on - some of those commercials are just *bad*. And not the good, I'll remember it because it was so bad, bad. I'm talking *bad*. Some days it saddens me to think that there is actually someone who got paid to sign off and give the "ok" to a certain commercial. Oh well.
Never use a big word when a dimunitive one will suffice.
I used to be a media planner, and believe me. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
What you are seeing here are merely volleys in a price negotiation. Don't mistake it for reality. The last thing *anybody* - advertisers, networks, clients - wants is for media delivery to be accurately measured.
(rant on)
All advertising rates are based on The Big Lie, and anything that interferes with this shared revenue-producing delusion is summarily dropped or compromised out of existance.
Audit bureaus came up with the idea of actually counting the number of magazines shipped and then publishing the reports. Magazines then came up with what they called "pass along readership" where they make arbitrary guesses that more than one person reads a single issue. Agencies went along with it, because if clients knew the truth they wouldn't know what the hell to do, and when they don't know what to do they stop spending money.
If I recall correctly, 'People Magazine' was saying that they had a pass-along readership of 18. As in 18 people read every issue because, by their logic, 'People' sat in a lot of doctor's office waiting rooms.
There have been many innovations in television measurement, including Nielsen boxes that measure whose watching a set based on their heat signature, but they've been quietly retired with mumbles about cost or privacy or whatever. They then continue to wildly massage the numbers in the process of projecting truly aweful diary and box data to national viewership.
The fact is that the livelyhood of networks, magazines, outdoor ads, agencies, and the marketing departments at clients is supported by wasted dollars, and your safe bet is on any technology that allows this waste to continue. Anything that threatens to be both accurate an ubiquitous will never see the light of day.
(rant off)
So I read the story like this:
"Researchers in the marketing department of the largest advertising spender in the world have recently declared that despite incontrovertable evidence that people are fast-forwarding through the commercials it took them quite a long time to think up, they actually remember them despite the lack of sound and their carefully-crafted characters running around like time-lapse ants. So despite this incontrovertable evidence, there is fortunately no reason to cut their budgets, fire their agency and lay them all off. When reached for comment, their advertising agency agreed with them a full fifteen percent, which coincidentaly was the amount of their fee."
--------
Re:I used to be a media planner, and believe me. . (Score:2)
Let's not get too excited (Score:2, Funny)
compression (Score:2)
So basically it's like compression. The same amount of information is conveyed with much less data.
Or maybe we just weren't watching commercials at all.
Die commercial world die (Score:2, Insightful)
Blipverts (Score:2, Redundant)
Max Headroom (Score:2)
TiVo could make ads even better (Score:3, Interesting)
Then as I FF (I use the second level) through the commercial break, instead of seeing random frames from the commercial, I'll see the frames the advertiser wants me to see. And if I hit play, TiVo will know where to rewind to in order to show me the commercial that interested me.
Everyone wins; I don't waste any time (FF speed is the same as before) watching commercials that don't interest me. Advertisers get a chance to interest me. And TiVo gets a valuable new income stream -- market research. They learn, for example, that families with 43 year old white males rarely are interested in douche ads during Farscape.
Taking this a step further, future TiVo devices could shuffle the ads, replacing ads that it is clear that my family won't be interested in with ones that we might be, sort of what google does with their adwords.
No downside for us in this. The zip through the commercials time isn't changed. Because let us face it, what we hate are not commercials, but commercials we are not interested in.
As a side note, one downside of the TiVo FF (even when not at fastest speed) is that I tend to miss ads for upcoming programs that might interest me. This would really help with that.
TV? (Score:2, Interesting)
I haven't had a television signal in my home for almost a year. Whenever I go oever a relative's house you see them basked in the glow of the great american fireplace.
"Anyone want to go for a bear?"
Silence, stirring...
"Guys this is a re-run of a show I didn't care to watch in the first place."
Angry grunting that I'm interrupting their show.
"Say can we at least mute the commercials?"
Objects thrown. Cat's hiss. The room grows darker.
Re:TV? (Score:3, Funny)
What kind of bear? Do your friends live near a forest? A zoo? A bar populated by large hairy gay men [jeffglover.com]?
Re:TV? (Score:2)
I haven't had a television signal in my home for almost a year. Whenever I go oever a relative's house you see them basked in the glow of the great american fireplace.
"Anyone want to go for a bear?"
And so you now waste your time drinking beer and reading articles and commentary about TV commercials and TV recording devices? If you don't watch television, why would this article interest you in the slightest? Is your sole purpose in this discussion to make superc
Re:TV? (Score:2)
This is news?! (Score:2)
On a lot of the newer VCR's (I have a Mitsubishi HS-U595), you can press one button and fast-forward the playback in fixed-time increments; my VCR can do it between 30 and 180 seconds in 30-second increments. The 150 and 180 second skip modes are enough to fast-forward through station breaks in a small fraction of the normal time; you suddenly realize how much less
What a crock (Score:2)
Long-term, though, it will become irrelevant. I like my Tivo, but before I even bought it, I knew it wasn't forever. Someday we'll all be using P2P to share edit scripts so that only a handful of people go through the trouble of fast-forwarding through ads, and the rest of us will have fully-automated ad-skipping, without even the blipverts.
By the time t
teevee's dirty little secret (Score:3, Interesting)
Ads and Tivo (Score:2)
It doesn't happen a lot, maybe once or twice an evening, but it kind of surprised me that I did it at all.
What's more, I still recognize most of the ads that I blip over from seeing them on "live" TV. I guess TV advertising is so r
an alternative (Score:2)
Those sorts of ads always seem to stick with me more. I can still remember a miniseries about George Washington that was on NBC back in the day that only had ads for GM and they were really short ads. So now wh
Ads not doing what someTHINK they are doing (Score:2, Insightful)
Ads do three different thigns:
Pay for the show/otherwise amuse us.
Give Name recognition to a product
If a service/product is new/unknown, it informs the public about it.
Only the last service can not be done via fast-forward viewing. Frankly it is so rarely used that is not that big a deal..
Yes, advertisers claim that a "good" ad will get people to buy coke over pepsi or whatever, but that is bullcrap. People might try it once, but no one, not ev
That's absolutely true. (Score:2)
Yup, no effect at all!