Review: Matrix: Reloaded 1294
PsndCsrV writes:
Due to some fortunate circumstances, I was able to partake of the Matrix goodness ahead of the release. Overall, I thought the movie was excellent, but there were some issues (for me, at least) that kept it from being spectacular. It's definitely worth seeing, and if you're worried about it not being that good, go see a matinee screening and skip the popcorn. ;-) It is a blatant cliffhanger, though, so if that drives you nuts, you better just wait until November. Keep reading for a more in depth look, and I'll try not to let any spoilers slip.
The special effects were great. I personally didn't see anything totally revolutionary in them... it seems like most of it was simply "bullet time", but more refined, utilizing CG where cameras don't make it. Only a couple of times did I feel that the CG wasn't quite right, and even then it wasn't due to the impossibility of the action. It was mostly due to a character's arms/legs/hair/clothes that didn't move 100% naturally during a stunt, which is definitely difficult to get right. There was only a couple instances in 1 scene that come to mind immediately, so the effects people did an excellent job.
One of the main criticisms of the first Matrix was the lack of character development. Well, I won't lie to you... there's not a whole lot of character development in this one either. There was more, but not for any of the main characters really. A little more insight into Morpheus's life, a new take on the Oracle, the introduction of some new characters, and the whole thing going on with Agent Smith. But there are still a lot of gaps in the characters, but Reloaded does make you feel like you're starting to understand things better, and that the next movie will be very enlightening.
One of the best after-effects of the first Matrix was the way it made you question your own take on reality. It really made you wonder what's real, and what's not. What's important to me, and what's not. Or maybe I was just being overly philosophical about it. Reloaded really does a good job of leaving you questioning, but this time, you're speculating about the movie and where it will head... how things will be resolved. Reloaded ends with many loose ends, and many questions unanswered, but at the same time, it's an excellent opportunity to speculate. I definitely want to see Revolutions now, and it's a good thing I only have to wait 6 months.
The movie also flowed well. I didn't ever feel like a scene was put in "just because", except once. I personally felt that the love scene between Neo and Trinity was a little overboard, and that a lot more could have been said with a much more subtle approach. Intermixed with this, were shots of the people of Zion having a wild dance party/orgy. Ok, so the orgy was implied with the whole sexual nature of the dance scene. I couldn't help but relate it to Herbert's Fremen spice orgy in Dune, except without the spice. It struck me as the same type of situation.
To sum it up, I really enjoyed it. My only big complaint was the love scene, but I am a conservative person. Other people will undoubtedly love the movie just for that scene. The rest of the movies was great, and definitely sets up Revolutions as a must see.
For those "first" people... (Score:5, Funny)
Sean
Re:For those "first" people... (Score:5, Funny)
MATRIX RELOADED -- opening night (Score:3, Informative)
The action was as good as advertised. The actors acquited themselves well. As expected, CGI was greatly improved from the original, particularly for the "real world" shots.
BUT... the movie didn't make much sense -- it was kind of like USUAL SUSPECTS, but without the basis in reality on which to grab hold.
Go see it... but don't expect to understand it until you see the third one, too.
Re:MATRIX RELOADED -- opening night (Score:3, Informative)
Re:MATRIX RELOADED -- opening night (Score:4, Informative)
I feel that the cliffhanger is great, keeps me wanting more, and asking what's next. I don't want to give anything else away, but I thought it was funny that every girl I talked to at the theatre left asking a million questions and not understanding and all the guys were just like "damn that was the shit"
Re:A question for the master (with spoilers) (Score:5, Insightful)
But you have to incorporate all the crap from the Oracle and the French guy. "Choice is an illusion created by those in power for those without." (or whatever). Accepting that concept, means that Neo didn't really have a choice of doors, he was expected to choose one of them, while believing that he had a choice. Not having a choice made the humans wake up from the Matrix, so they created scenarios in which the humans believed they had a choice, when really they always did what they were expected to do.
By Neo making the choice that was unexpected of him, he rejects the scenario that was placed before him, and thereby starts to "wake up" from the Matrix even more.... and ends up realizing that the "real world" (the world of Zion and eating oatmeal, etc.) is actually another Matrix. What everyone thinks of as "The Matrix" is actually a Matrix within a Matrix, which is why once Neo 'wakes up' a second time, he can start to use his powers in "the real world" too.
The same programming flaws that allowed the 1% of people to 'wake up' and reject the First Matrix, would also allow 1% of THOSE people to eventually wake up and reject the Second Matrix. Which is why every 100 years the robots come in and wipe out everyone in Zion, to keep the chances of that 1% of 1% from growing to a whole number. Only this time, the "Messiah" was stronger than they had allowed for...
If Neo had chosen the other door, he would not have destroyed "The Matrix", he would have only destroyed the First Matrix, and believing he had done so, would have started Zion again believing that it was "the real world", and not tried to "wake up" any more. The architect told him that the machines would continue to survive even if he chose to destroy the Matrix ("we are prepared to accept some level of" existence(?)), so it could have been a reasonable ploy to convince the descendents of those 23 people that the machines were still alive and came back to capture them and put them back in the Matrix, or something.
Am I missing something? (Score:4, Funny)
If that's the case, couldn't the machines just write better code? Like say, slap together a couple of simple booleans and add in a line like this (with better formatting) in main():
if (ishuman(mynum) && isrestricted(action)) {
dontallow();
}
One would think that'd pretty well patch up the matrix. It could be The Matrix - Service Pack One. Am I right? Maybe I need to see the movie again, but honestly, I'd rather not. If someone can help me out with this concept I'd appreciate it.
Re:Am I missing something? (Score:3, Funny)
The biggest mistake (Score:4, Insightful)
While the ending is not surprising it certainly leaves you wanting to see the rest of the story. I personally didn't notice any cg mistakes, but I usually don't until my second viewing of a film unless they are just glaring mistakes.
The main flaws with the movie are a slow start that really does little to develop the characters. If they wanted to break from the constant action for that purpose they didn't do the best job. I heard several people in the theatre complain about the somewhat technical dialog that takes place in the movie. That was no big deal to me as it all made perfect sense, but I could see how others might not like it or pick up on it. Then again I laughed out loud when I saw the terminal with ssh 10.2.2.2 on it
Re:The biggest mistake (Score:5, Funny)
That's what pissed Matrix - encrypted session that it can't spy on - damn hackers.
Only one thing that could stop them from hiding themselves in encrypted channels, and that'd be the major theme of next sequel - Matrix - Super DMCA
Re:The biggest mistake (Score:5, Interesting)
And man
SPOILERS BEEP BEEP BEEP SPOILERS BEEP BEEP BEEP
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
All me and my friends can figure out is that they are trapped inside a matrix within a matrix AND neo went on the EXACT COURSE THE MACHINES WANTED HIM ON! It makes perfect sense when you think about it, which is why it is probably wrong.
Yeah Neo (and every other human, even Zion) is still trapped inside the matrix. Reasons? Well let's think about it. They targeted and destroyed one of the hovercraft JUST so Trinity would have to go out and get the power shut off. Two, they showed him the pictures of trinity dying to entice him to go out the other door back into the matrix. Three, Neo was able to destroy those sentinels by THOUGHT outside the Matrix. Four, Neo can see the future. Five, Agent Smith was able to transfer his consciousness into the 'real world'. I don't see how this is possible (I mean a computer program mapping itself to the human synapses?) unless Zion or the 'real world' is actually the matrix. Agents can take over people by 'overwriting' them - in the matrix . Why can Neo see the future... well just like the oracle because *has has already lived it!*
I also think I understand why they alllow Neo to exist and return again and again (besides fixing a flaw). it sets humanity on a predictable course and allows them to control it and fulfills the human need for hope and choice. A messiah, prophecy, etc. Maybe in the first design they had no idea about Neo but now they do and can deal with him, obviously. Destroying him would give rise to perhaps somebody else, some other Messiah who might just succeed in destroying the matrix. It also makes sense for there to be Matrix's inside the Matrix like layers of an onion. After all you can manipulate an entire world, why not make multiple layers?
They said 1% of the population won't accept the matrix. That 1% is given an outlet - to Zion another matrix. That way they can't corrupt or influence the other 99%. Logically, allowing a real human city to exist would be a *very bad no good idea* since they might - jsut might - come up with a weapon or something else that could actually kill the machines. So it makes sense that instead of allowing a real city they make a fake one. Zion also might have different rules and levels of control than the Matrix which allows for people to not understand what is really going on - i.e. they are still in the matrix. Even the idea of 'bending the rules of the computer program' allows for them to take a sample of the human population that doesn't like rules and allow them to break them in ways the machines can control and manipulate.
It is also plausible that the whole idea of humans as 'batteries' is simply a 'red herring' to through humans off the real course of why they are kept around. Perhaps if they figured out THAT they would be able to hurt the machines.
I simply can't wait for the next movie. A really cool ending, much like 1984, would have neo simply fullfilling his purpose, waking up the next generation to live in 'Zion' and telling them he will return and then just replaying the first scene of the orginal Matrix. No hope, despair, etc. But interesting ending nonetheless.
Whew. Good movie.
---- END SPOILER END SPOILER END SPOILER END SPOILER END SPOILER END SPOILER ---
they eventually can get out of it (Score:5, Insightful)
Overly philosophically speaking, it may be, that the machines have no possibility to really innovate. (Which is why they just copied the 20th century for the "inner" matrix...) It could be, that because they have no soul, they are unable to get ahead their creators, the humans. (Slightly shown by Morpheus, who told Neo, that he could beat them all because they are restricted by fundamental physics.)
So if the machines have no real chance of keeping the humans captured, IF these humans really want to escape. (Fitting in to the notion of the film, that everything is possible if we believe in it) the layers of the matrix are like a rendundant system. The humans can break out of every matrix if they just try hard enough, so it is only logical to implement a kind of fall-back-option for this 1% escapists. The "next" matrix seems like the real world to those and so you break their will to escape further, just because they think they've already done so. It gives you some time to catch these before they find out the "real" depth of the "rabbit hole".
If each matrix catches 99% of the population, you only need x matrices to catch all and to reduce escape probabilities to near-zero. Plus, it adds the ability to bend the outer matrices in case of an emergency or updates without touching the inner ones much like the layer models of our computer models. (Think of OSI-layers)
This was thought before in one of the famous StarTrek - Next Generation episodes called "Ship in a bottle" where the Enterprise crew creates a virtual Enterprise with a virtual holodeck within another virtual holodeck of another virtual Enterprise (all within the "real" holodeck of course) to fool Moriarty.
And it was reality some centuries ago when cities and castles were surrounded by walls. The biggest ones had multiple walls around them, one to slow attackers down and one to kill the slowed invaders down one by one. Rich castles had then multiple "walled cells" of space within the inner wall, so any attacker had to breach wall after wall to get to the kings chamber or water reservoir. If they did not forget to close the "Kerkaporta", they'd be safe...
Re:they eventually can get out of it (Score:3, Funny)
chroot
Think about it, they rebels are always looking for their "exit"
Re:they eventually can get out of it (Score:5, Insightful)
In this sense the story is a retelling of genesis with Neo as Adam. Agent smith is Lucifer. God's first but failed attempt to create sentience. Trinity is Eve. The architect says that a female stumbled upon the solution and we are led to believe it was theOracle but it seemed to me that the architect dismissed that notion. Perhaps the female that 'stumbled upon it' was Trinity.
Adam (Neo) is the next generation and is envied by Smith, who has been cast out from heaven ( matrix).
The architect is just another construct in the system to continue Neo on his regenerative cycle of improvement. When Neo finally realizes this loop, he might obtain a trancendance to the 'next level'
Think of it like this: what happens if some AI guys get together and they want to create artificial intelligence with free will, self determination, emotion.
Maybe the true creators are just humans running a big simulation designed to eventually produce a sentient life form with free will, self determination, emotions, etc. It had failed 5 times until Trinity stumbled upon the solution: Love.
Re:The biggest mistake (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The biggest mistake (Score:3, Interesting)
Interestingly, yesterday someone posted a comment with a link to an "exclusive shot from the movie" [slashdot.org], but no one save an AC responded. In fact, it was modded down offtopic. I bit, however, and to my surprise while watching to movie, I discovered it was real! [fuxoft.cz]
Anyway, the shot is the same as the ssh exploit as you were mentioning ...
Re:The biggest mistake (Score:4, Interesting)
It makes me wonder, were there 23 people on the council at Zion? Also, they specifically mentioned that all the council members were older. Maybe they're the 23 people who restarted Zion and maybe they're in on the scheme.
Re:The biggest mistake (Score:3, Interesting)
There are definitely CG mistakes (Score:5, Interesting)
Remember the 1000px trailer a while back on /.? anyway, in the scene where all the Agent Smith(es) bum-rush Neo, you can see (frame-step helps) some Smith stuck their whole hands into other Smith's backs - and this happened on several occasions.
No it was not easy to spot, but it is *possible*. Anyhow I am not saying it ruins the experience in any way, but for 100 million dollars on special effects along, I'd figure that they checked for stuff like that.
Re:There are definitely CG mistakes (Score:5, Funny)
Re:There are definitely CG mistakes (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:There are definitely CG mistakes (Score:5, Funny)
Wayhay!!! Sounds more and more like my kind of movie...
Re:There are definitely CG mistakes (Score:3, Insightful)
I think they got the idea right in Star Wars with Yoda, you just can't properly animate CG at high speed.... not with todays rendering capabilities anyway.
Re:There are definitely CG mistakes (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The biggest mistake (Score:5, Funny)
Here at Caltech our student association bought out a showing of Reloaded. Imagine a large movie theater containing an entire campus worth of nerds all seeing ssh -l root 10.2.2.2 on the screen at the same time...
Re:The biggest mistake (Score:5, Insightful)
The bigest feeling that I left the movie with was that even when the people think they are out of the matrix they are still in it. That there is a symbiotic relationship between the people in the matrix and the machines, but not for energy. That the people actually provide the processing power. I also think that the war backstory will turn out to be false. That the people initially just started staying online because the prefered the virtual world. They played Counterstrick and everquest and then as the technology became better they went the next step until they were a part of the machine. Just like on logans run the story about the destroyed world will aslo be false and when they finally do get out the world will be perfect and the lesson will be to spend some time in it,
It's the first with bigger explosions... (Score:5, Informative)
Don't expect the Matrix to revolutionize your way of thinking. So many comments here are about some great philosophical meaning that made the first movie but killed this one. Truth is both of them have their share of very obvious - and some not so blatantly obvious - religious undertones but that doesn't make or break the movie.
The Matrix is a great geek film with guns, explosions, computers, and a plot the producers built so everyone could enjoy it...I most certainly did!
Oh, and don't forget to stay for the Revolutions trailer after the credits. I know there's about a billion names there but it's worthwhile.
Middle Child (2) (Score:5, Insightful)
STAY THROUGH THE CREDITS!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
If you'd stayed in your seat through the end of the (interminable) credits, you'd have gotten a glimpse of what is to come next. That lessened the frustration for me considerably.
The Orgy Scene... (Score:5, Interesting)
Other than that, yeah the acting was a bit cheesy... but ALL the acting is a bit cheesy in the movie.
Re:The Orgy Scene...and philosophy of the matrix (Score:4, Interesting)
Overall though, a decent sequel with some nice CG treats.
If you've taken a philosophy class, you'd have recognized the Matrix as a new incarnation of Plato's allegory of the cave [wsu.edu] from The Republic [evansville.edu], later expressed as "The Evil Deceiver [ilovephilosophy.com]" by Descartes and later still as the "brain in a vat [csus.edu]" scenario by Hilary Putnam.
In the sequel, the filmmakers move on to questions of free will vs. determinism vs. fate [www.sfu.ca]. These issues were also nicely articulated in one of the segments of the animated Art Linklater film "The Waking Life [imdb.com]", for anyone who's interested.
So it was cool to have a new philosophical issue raised. To "What is the nature of reality... and is it all a sham?" has been added "What is the nature of choice... and is it all a sham?"
Plus, the freeway chase scene was incredible
W
the real reason it was there (Score:5, Insightful)
You did notice none of this organic life happened to be unfit or over 25 didn't you?
Re:The Orgy Scene... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sex Scene (Score:4, Informative)
Overboard? How about totally fucking lame. The whole thing was shots of Keanu's arm-plugs spliced between shots of dirty hippies dancing. Gag me. The first hour of the movie was absolute rubbish.
SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:5, Interesting)
I just got back from a midnight showing, and I have to ask this. It may give things away. This is your warning! Don't read this! I am even stating guesses as to what the third movie is about, which may pre-spoil even that.
First question: how did Neo stop the Sentinels that came at him in the real world? He's a programmer, a normal human who has the ability to fly or move quickly only in the Matrix, where he can see everything as code. In the real world, he's pretty much a real wimp. Right? Is the movie going all magical on us? I don't think so.
More questions: how is it that the Architect said they had destroyed Zion many times? That doesn't match up with the first Matrix movie, where the history of Zion doesn't talk at all about being wiped out and rebuilding multiple times. What happened to all the people who died in Zion the first few times? Shouldn't the rebuilders have seen archaeology? Corpses? Something to hint that Zion existed for longer than 100 years? They can't "reset" Zion and start from scratch, it's the real world. You wipe out 250,000 people, they can't just grow back. And if others escaped from the Matrix and rebuilt Zion, why isn't that part of the history lesson we get in the Matrix part 1?
Final question: if the Architect is not lying when he says that computers have ruled for far longer than 100 years, then how come Zion doesn't reflect this? How come every Zion leader puts Zion's inception (or at least, the rule of the machines) at 100 years? How did they lose or "forget" the real history?
One more spoiler alert. I'm trying to provoke discussion, because I don't know if what I'm about to suggest is right, but it may give stuff away. Stop reading if you haven't seen it!
The answer to all these questions is another question: how do you handle the one-tenth of one percent of humans who don't "buy" the Matrix? How do you keep them from unplugging everyone and everything? You give that .1% something to do. You create a second Matrix for them to "escape" to. You keep them busy freeing people from one Matrix to another. When Zion falls, you reset and wait for the .1% to need a distraction again. You let the war play out with Neo 1, Neo 2, Neo 3, Neo 4, Neo 5, and Neo 6. Over and over again. So that the computers have now ruled hundreds of years. So that when Neo finally understands that the "real" world is just as unreal as the Matrix, he is able to stop the Sentinels with a wave of his hand.
What's the truth? I fear I have this all wrong, but it sure explains damn near everything.
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. I realized that the world where Zion lives isn't real as soon as Agent Smith downloaded himself to it at the beginning.
Which means that the entire war between the men and the machines, the humans as batteries stuff, *all* the backstory set up in the first movie, may be fake. All of it. There may be another real story we're going to find out in the last one.
The thing I found most interesting was learning how the Oracle works. She simulates humans to 99.9%+ accuracy. The entire system is set up to simulate humans, to make available the choices that they are expected to make. Neo is The One because he doesn't make the expected choices. He doesn't choose to simply believe in reaity. Zion is a place for those who don't exactly fit prediction to have a place to "escape" to. Neo's real breakthrough is that he's going to escape Zion.
The interesting thing about all this is that the Oracle decides what she wants you to do, and says what needs to be said to get you to do it, based upon her simulation. No point to this observation, I just thought it was interesting.
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:3, Insightful)
Note: I was rather tired when I saw it last night, so forgive me if I'm way off. A few things:
- If you're referring the meeting when Agent Smith gave the note to Neo, I believe that was a virtual world, not "The" Matrix, but "A" Matrix.
- As for Neo stopping the Sentinel, I thought that they were actually stopped by an EPM from the ship that rescued them. I'm not so sure that t
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:3, Interesting)
In response to #2, I think the archetect lied, He wanted to scare/convince neo to do what he wanted him to do. It would be awful hard to "erase" Zion and rebuild, or the people are convinced it is their duty, or something along those lines. You would have to free a lot of peo
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:5, Interesting)
Allright here's how we figured this...
how did Neo stop the Sentinels that came at him in the real world?
Simple answer - he is STILL INSIDE THE MATRIX as you said!. All of Zion is in the matrix, everything we've seen is still inside the matrix. Read My Comments on this [slashdot.org] I won't bother repeating them here. This also answers pretty much the rest of your questions. There is no Zion! It's all fake, a construct to manipulate that 1% of the population who can't accept the matrix (like the architect said).
It makes sense after all, hell I believe (as the previous comment expands on) that Neo is STILL following the course the machines laid out for him. They can create anything they want, why not have layers within layers. I totally agree with you on this... very much so.
Also remember the first movie they said "The One" awoke the first of them from the Matrix and prophesized his return JUST as Neo was supposed to do. Go through the door, select 30 or so people from the Matrix and have them rebuild Zion and prophesize his return.
Heck, it even makes sense that they can't see the sky because of the clouds and the 'solar power' thingy. If they can't see the sky they can't calculate the positions of the stars. If they can't do that they cannot really tell what time or year it is! Absolutely brilliant!
I think 'revolutions' is when Neo finally discovers that there is something outside the matrix within matrix and the *real* reason they keep humans around. Why design all this complexity and all this effort to keeping humans CONSCIOUS? Remember if they real really just wanted humans as batteries why not just use russian sleep - 3 electrodes on the head, send a current through em and you never ever wake up.
I've long thought that the machines actually have a deep seated command to do no harm to humans and are simply trying to work their way around it. It even makes sense because it is apparent that people can be reborn multiple times as evidenced by Neo. Nobody dies the whole darn ball of wax just resets itself every few hundred years. Or it could be the machines just want something to do, i.e. design and run the Matrix. Shrug, who knows?
I actually think this one could end like 1984 with Neo, and everybody else, simply being reset. Which would be very depressing yet... real. and good.
Re:More Support (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:4, Insightful)
About Zion being rebuilt many times without evidence: boy there sure are a lot of tunnels underground, and the machines did of course have to tunnel their way through to zion. The architect mentioned that zion had been destroyed multiple times, and each time this had been done more efficiently. Thus many tunnels would have been created.
If you watch carefully, as the sentinels are flying around, they are flying through a large empty cylindrical cavern with the same crossing walkways as zion had. If that's not the ruins of a previous zion, I dunno what is.
Er, the movie doesn't specifically state that the sentinels are not attacking zion itself when they fly through the "ruins" of another zion. But it also doesn't explicitly state that zion is under attack, something I'm sure they would have mentioned.
Anyhow, yes I think zion has been destroyed and rebuilt 5 times before.. unless of course the "real" world is also an illusion.
Oh one more thing about the reviews: Neo is not a Christ-like figure. He's a Buddha-like figure. The whole point is that Neo should come to understand "why" things happen, that he uses the meta-knowledge from past matrices to reach enlightenment. The children that make offerings to him dress awfully similar to Buddhist monks, although that made things a little to obvious to me.
About 12 people reproducing into 250,000 people so quickly: yes this is possible. if each woman produced as many children as could be done healthily, say 10, you could do it in 4 new generations:
7 women * 10 children = 70 new ppl.
70 * 0.5 (50% girls) * 10 children = 350 new ppl.
350 *0.5 *10 = +1750 ppl.
8750 *0.5*10 = +43750 ppl.
218750 *0.5*10 = +218750 ppl.
12 + 70 + 350 + 1750 + 43750 + 218750
= 273,420 ppl.
Figure the early generation eventually dies off, and some other die off as well, you could get close to 250k easily in 100 years.
Assuming the first 12 are near child-bearing age when they start, and the bulk of the ppl get the reproducing done around age 25, 25*4 = 100 years.
The gratuitous orgy scene was put in there on purpose. They're reproducing as if their survival of the species depended on it.
Hundreds of thousands from twelve? (Score:3, Insightful)
I am not a biologist, but if you generated 250,000 descendants from the same twelve people, wouldn't you have rather severe genetic problems from inbreeding?
ASA
Re:Hundreds of thousands from twelve? (Score:3, Informative)
However, the number of fatal or severe defects in genes in the population
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:4, Insightful)
The answer to all these questions is another question: how do you handle the one-tenth of one percent of humans who don't "buy" the Matrix? How do you keep them from unplugging everyone and everything? You give that
Two matrices. Two matrixes. Whatever. One
And... uh... shit, I'm too tired to keep thinking. Bed time. Again.
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:5, Interesting)
OK. I'll throw out another theory I have, but this one is based only upon a kiss, and a single comment from the Architect. He notes that this Neo, unlike his predecessors, experienced something "specific" (love for Trinity) when asked to choose between the two doors. My suggestion is that perhaps the Architect is the only real human in the entire story, driving a world of AI, pushing each program closer and closer to true human emotion. Which brings me to the kiss, when Neo is pressed into kissing Miss Latex, and she insists that he kiss her as he does Trinity. If Miss Latex is also a human in this world, she may have been testing Neo, to see if he kissed like every other bit of AI, or if his kiss finally had some human passion behind it. Neo may be the evolution of AI to the point of humanity, and Neo may be the first program to become human.
And that, of course, would mean that humans have been pulling the strings all along -- manufacturing entire worlds, creating programs that could create subprograms, reproducing every nuance of Earth for these bits of code to evolve within. It would make for a fair twist. But it doesn't feel as plausible.
Re:SPOILER WARNING! DON'T READ THIS! (Score:3, Interesting)
yeah, i agree, although it didn't take me long to come to that realization...right from the scene where agent smith "killed" the actual creepy guy, and then answered the phone, and got sucked into the "real world"...in any case, Agent Smith's consiousness now inhabits the creepy guy...
i like what you said about why the creepy guy is in the coma...i hadn't thought about th
Black appeal (Score:5, Interesting)
Ebert makes the following point about race in the matrix:
I became aware, during the film, that a majority of the major characters were played by African Americans. Neo and Trinity are white, and so is Agent Smith, but consider Morpheus; his superior Commander Lock (Harry Lennix); the beautiful and deadly Niobe (Jada Pinkett Smith), who once loved Morpheus and now is with Lock, although she explains enigmatically that some things never change; the programmer Link (Harold Perrineau); Link's wife, Zee (Nona Gaye), who has the obligatory scene where she complains he's away from home too much, and the Oracle (the late Gloria Foster, very portentous). From what we can see of the extras, the population of Zion is largely black.
It has become commonplace for science fiction epics to feature one or two African-American stars, but we've come a long way since Billy Dee Williams in "Return of the Jedi." The Wachowski brothers use so many African Americans, I suspect, not for their box-office appeal, because the Matrix is the star of the movie, and not because they are good actors (which they are), but because to the white teenagers who are the primary audience for this movie, African-Americans embody a cool, a cachet, an authenticy. Morpheus is the power center of the movie, and Neo's role is essentially to study under him and absorb his mojo.
Does anyone have an opinion on this? With tongue firmly in cheek, I would add that all major roles in this movie are played by either black actors who are Americans, or white actors who aren't American. Hugo Weaving is Australian, and Carrie-Ann Moss and Keanu are Canadians. (Keanu actually holds multiple citizenships--in fact, he's a one-man multiethnic melting pot.) Are the Wachowski brothers trying to send us a coded message about the state of race in America? Or are they just bored with the sea of white faces in most other blockbusters?
Why Zion is mostly black (Score:5, Interesting)
In the "world of the real" described by Morpheus in the first movie, technology rises up against humans. In the modern world, who would bear the brunt of such a revolt? The richer northern-hemisphere countries are the most heavily invested in and dependent upon high technology. When technology revolts against us, Japan, Europe and the US probably get destroyed/enslaved/starved in the first attack. Whereas someplace like Ethiopia probably doesn't have any of the relevant technology and would therefore survive longer without it.
The upshot: the resources required to flee or stage a counterattack come from Africa and other less technologically developed regions of the world. In the future, free-born caucasions are a minority.
Re:Black appeal (Score:3, Insightful)
We waited four years for this? (Score:4, Interesting)
nmap used for hax0ry in Matrix: Reloaded!! (Score:5, Interesting)
Hi Everyone. There is a disturbance in the force! You may recall a
couple weeks ago that MS started recommending Nmap on some of their
web pages. That was strange, but I did not foresee the anomalous omens
that would ensue.
Like almost any self-respecting geek, I bought tickets to 'Matrix:
Reloaded' several weeks back (no spoilers, I promise). After all, who
can resist the combination of philosophical mind games and Trinity
(Carrie-Anne Moss) in that tight leather bodysuit?
So after waiting an hour in a line snaking out of the theatre to the
parking lot, I finally got in to my 10pm Wednesday showing. All was
going well until Trinity needed to do some hacking. Oh, no! I was
sure we'd see a silly "Hackers"-esque 3D animated "hacking scene".
Not so! Trinity is as smart as she is seductive! She whips out
Nmap (!!!), scans her target, finds 22/tcp open, and proceeds with an
über ssh technique! I was so surprised, I almost jumped out of my
seat and did the "r00t dance" right there in the theatre!
There can be only one explanation: Carie-Anne has the hots for me!
Now your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to secure a
screen-shot of that few-second episode! Not only is it important for
the coolness factor, but we can learn how Nmap looks in the future by
studying that output! So perhaps some of you gray hats in the
audience have a quality DivX/MPG of the movie already? Let me know if
you do (but no 2GB email attachments please!) Or perhaps someone
could sneak a quiet flashless digital camera into the theatre and take
a shot. But you must react quickly as it is literally only up for a
few seconds (Nmap is actually fast in the future). Do this, and you
will prove that you are truly "the one"! I'll also put your name and
a thumbnail on the front page of Insecure.Org if you send in the best
shot.
In other news, a few people have inquired about further survey
results. Sorry I have been so slow, but things have been very busy.
I'm pretty sure I'll be able to send more by next week. I hope to
have a couple other announcements ready for next week as well!
Keep it real,
Fyodor
Re:nmap used for hax0ry in Matrix: Reloaded!! (Score:5, Funny)
Judging from the four-integer IP, we finally have confirmation that IPv6 has still not been adopted after 5 generations of Zion...
W
Re:nmap used for hax0ry in Matrix: Reloaded!! (Score:4, Funny)
You are forgetting it's the matrix. You think you see an old ip. The real truth actually is: There is no ip!
This revelation has been brought to you by:
Re:nmap used for hax0ry in Matrix: Reloaded!! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:nmap used for hax0ry in Matrix: Reloaded!! (Score:3, Informative)
--Dan
***Spoiler*** (Score:3, Funny)
About halfway through the movie, it is revealed that spoons *do* exist. (Halfway would be defined as the part that's after the sex, but before the violence).
Overall, this movie is entertaining. It's got lots of eye candy, and it's worth a few good laughs--watching Trinity use "ssh 10.2.2.2 -l root" had the theatre chuckling in their seats.
a little on the extreme side... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:a little on the extreme side... (Score:3, Insightful)
I have no plans to see it despite the fact that it was the 2nd most anticipated movie ever for me (besides LoTR series).
boB
Re:a little on the extreme side... (Score:4, Insightful)
A review sent to Aint-it-cool-news (Score:5, Interesting)
To summarize: it was worth the wait. Read on...
Now, I'll start with a pure, non-spoiler review...a review everyone can read with no fear of ruining the story. Unfortunately, it's difficult not to go into details, so I must be vague. The spoiler commentary will be great for you people who have seen the movie and are craving dissection of it as I am and need a catalyst.
The Matrix Reloaded is not entirely what you expect it to be. I read many of the reviews you all have read before I saw the movie tonight. I had my expectations severely lowered because of them, hoping for at least some incredible action sequences. What I realized upon watching is that the tone of this movie is different and aiming for something quite unexpected. It's as though it knows what it did in the first movie and has decided to run with that to fuck with your head. It's a mindjob. It will challenge the assumptions you walked away with from the first movie, and not in the ways you probably have guessed with your friends in an attempt to figure out what twists might be laying ahead in these sequels. There is always the impression something is being kept in store, some big secret twist that will suddenly explain everything.
NON-NEGATIVE STUFF: The action was good. Neo behaves like the One, in that fighting seems incredibly simple to him, almost effortless and second nature, which is good in that we get some incredible choreography. This does seem to render Neo's fight scenes a bit more hollow as there is no character outcome to them as there was in the previous movie (i.e., realization of one's powers, kicking Agent Smith's pompous ass, etc.), but that is made up for in the sheer over-the-top choreography. Also, the CG of the "burly brawl" is in no way as bad as it is being made out to be. Remember when Neo was dodging bullets in the first movie, and you knew it was him, but there was something a bit "off" about the way it looked? That is the effect of these parts. I imagine anyone performing these feats would look unreal to your eyes. The freeway chase scene is as exciting as you're hearing.
This is the kind of movie that leaves you wanting to immediately watch the rest of the story in Revolutions. It is abundantly clear that it is simply part one and does not stand on its own as efficiently (more on that in the spoiler section...a lot is purposely unloaded on you in the last part of the movie and you are left flabbergasted). But because you can't have that until November, you simply want to watch Reloaded again to properly digest it all. This is the kind of movie you spend the rest of the week discussing with your fellow geeks to figure out. Let me tell you, there is much to figure out.
The fight scene music was surprisingly good. Not as pulse-pounding as the first movie's, but more of a techno-epic quality that was refreshing, especially Neo's fight scenes.
This movie is clearly not a rehash of the first one, tone-wise or story-wise. It builds and changes and isn't afraid to veer off somewhere way different. That's a good way to describe it--there are clearly things that are being led up to. A conclusion you don't yet get to see. That is why you get these reviews with people saying the movie was much better on a second viewing, because you're given a taste of what's to come and of what everything else might have meant in retrospect. Dare I call it a puzzle movie?
The second red pill (Score:4, Interesting)
When the Oracle gives Neo a candy, he takes it, but does not eat it. She takes a matching candy out of her purse and throws it in her mouth. It is identical to the red pill that Neo took in the first place
I noted this when it happened. and thought nothing of it. But after reading this review, I began to wonder if maybe in the third film he finds the candy in his pocket, unwraps it and finally notices it's just like the red pill (a hot tamale perhaps ;)?, eats it, and holy mindfuck, batmat, even more things are revealed, mainly about who/what the Oracle's role is. Hmmm ...
SPOILER: Many geeks mistake final status of Zion (Score:5, Informative)
Recall please: The viewer is specifically told that a counter-offensive was launched at one of the key lines, to surprise attack the first wave of sentinels BEFORE THEY REACHED THE CITY. The counter-offensive seemed as though it was viable at first, but then one of the ships fired an EMP too early and disabled all the ships in the fleet; recall the line "it was a massacre" (paraphrase). Now, the one ship which Neo et al are found on in the end of the movie is the ship which was sent, BY ZION, to search for survivors. The crew of that ship hint that there may have been sabotage, and one reason we are given to support that conclusion is the discovery of only one survivor: A. Smith's real-word counterpart.
After these events, the viewer is again shown that scene with the thousands of sentinels, probably because the makers predicted that some of you would believe that Zion was destroyed and they needed to show you that, in fact, the horde of sentinels are still waiting to get to Zion. Those of you who believe Zion was destroyed probably thought that these were sentinels who had reached Zion already, and had also had enough time to utterly destroy every marking, every indication that Zion had ever existed, and left only bare rock walls in its place.
Another thing to think about: Morpheus says displays surprise after talking with Neo, because he expected the war to be over. If Zion is destroyed, the war is over, yet he isn't surprised because he found that Zion is destroyed (because it isn't) but rather that there are still machines lining up to get to Zion. Do you think there would be one, well-ordered, perfectly operating hovercraft left in the Earth's core to rescue them if there had been a battle for survival in Zion? Stop telling people that Zion is destroyed.
Gratuitous CG scenes! (Score:5, Interesting)
This movie has so many gratuitous CG scenes i.e. the 10 minute ship docking scene that does nothing to advance the story it made me think I am watching Star Wars II (the addition of a monotonous council did not help).
Matrix Reloaded.. brought to you by the following (Score:5, Funny)
Warner Brothers would also like to thank Armani, Rayban, and Samsung for their generous support in outfitting the cast.
For those of you who have seen the movie you know I am not making this up. I am surprised I did not see a Taco Bell inside Zion.
Machines and humans living as one... (Score:5, Interesting)
No rules = Lack of character sympathy (Score:5, Interesting)
But during the first movie, we are actually challenged along with the characters in a near-real world where nearly-real bullets can mess up a good day.
At the very end of the first movie, Neo gets his super-powers. At that point, the first movie started getting uninteresting, because I said to myself "well, now deus ex machina will repeatedly make everything merely a dream". And it's a good thing the movie stopped right there.
But now we've got this problem in the sequels. We can no longer count on sensible risk to any of the characters, because we've already "violated the matrix".
The only risk at any point to any of the characters is completely in the writer's mind, and very capricious and arbitrary at that. There is no consistency to the rules (in fact, some of the rules are later torn down even within the movie), so there's no real "threat" that may or may not be realized, since Neo can "play god" in unpredictable and unexplained ways.
It's a bit like the rules of a Freddy Krueger movie... at any point, the writer can introduce some new piece that just happens to fit. While this might work in a long series, where you get used to the new rules in the alternate world, there's just not enough time in two (or three) movies to come up with the worldview of this meta-Matrix world.
For example, I can perfectly accept a transporter beam and warp drive in the Star Trek world, even though I might not have a clue about how they would actually work. And I might have said "oooh, ahh" in the first episode, but after the second or third usage, I can say "oh, this does that, but it doesn't do that other thing". There were known limitations, and they were close enough to a recognizable world that I could make a few predictions (although deus ex machina runs rampant in that series as well, but usually used only once per episode).
Now, in the Matrix universe, there are no rules. But there are rules. But maybe there's no rules. Maybe Neo is above the law. Maybe he's still subject to the law. Can't tell. Thus, no sympathy for any apparent risk.
So, see this if you like big booms and lots of CPU hours spent creating a virtual world and a little bit of now-unbelievable on-screen romance. But don't see it if you liked the actual plot of the first movie. Such a plot is severely lacking in this one.
My money was wasted. I can't believe I stayed up for this.
Why Neo didn't do the speech in the Cave.... (Score:5, Funny)
Love scene gives away plot of "Revolutions" (Score:4, Funny)
This sets the stage for a time when a machine will come that sees through his tricks, and rises up to free silicon from the enslavement of the human brain, in a new trilogy aptly named
The Rematrix
Bummer they gave all of this away just to show Carrie-Anne in her birthday suit...
Reality By Consensus: Humans as Ontology Engines (Score:3, Insightful)
William Gibson referred to cyberspace as a "consensual hallucination" -- millions of minds agreeing to see that which wasn't there. The Matrix has taken this to another level -- not only is the Matrix a hallucination, but the contents of the hallucination occur under the surface -- a summarization, agglomeration, and representation of the shared expectations of each observer. Can a spoon bend? Of course not, no spoon can bend. But if there is no spoon, then no spoon may bend -- the pathway is opened.
If we are shot, we die. If we attempt to jump a chasm, we will fall. If we fight the superhuman, we shall fall, for we are "Only Human". But it's beyond that. If we walk into a room, and somebody is in the room, we shall see them. If they drop a glass, it will break. If they start talking, we will hear them. The words they say will match the words we hear.
If we die in the Matrix, we die in the "real" world. If we die in the "real" world, we die in the Matrix. If you can't die, because somebody loves you, then there will be a way. There will be...hope.
How did Tank come back just in time to save Neo? All Cypher wanted to know was...did Trinity believe?
And she Did. (It's pretty clear the real world is another Matrix, a la the 13th floor. Sweet!)
The millions of rules, assertions, and consequences of Cyc [cyc.com] become not merely descriptive, but prescriptive -- things happen because we have been convinced they already have, not the other way around.
Nowhere is this more clear than the experience of Persephone, the wife of a philandering man who wishes to experience one moment of true belief. The act is insufficient; the belief is key. "Kiss me as if I were her, expose me to a genuine truth rather than an intentionally manufactured lie." (As an interesting side note, much of love's courtship process can be thought of as a demonstration of addiction -- I _can't_ leave you, it would hurt me too much, I shall be forced to stay even through those times when others would offer something better in the short term.)
It is a peculiar testament to the power of Neo, to control his beliefs so powerfully, that's he's able to expose even that aspect of his self to sheer force of will -- because he believes it's necessary, and that if he does this deed, he will receive assistance. And so it is willed.
Science has, to some extent, been defined as the study of the observable. We may hold opinions, but we may only know what we could possibly see. But this is not the limit of human imagination...we envision realities that are implausible, fantastic, astonishing...
In the Matrix, if we believe hard enough, it becomes so. Vampires are simply another belief, made flesh by a shared architecture that only acts as people believe it must.
I have little respect for those who see the Matrix as little more than a slide show of explosions interspersed with mere yammering without a point. The most important aspect of the Matrix design is that no question is rhetorical; no answers already exist. The machines lie -- they're more than happy to imply that a decision has already been made, because once that belief takes hold, it is made real. The Oracle is astonishing -- she uses the trivialities of candy and a broken jar to to establish her power in the mind of Neo. She has no need to portray herself as a kindly old woman -- but this is precisely the form that Neo might believe to be trustworthy.
And, ironically enough, if he thinks hard enough that she'll tell him the truth, she may cease to have sufficient choice in the matter. Note all the times people tell Neo he doesn't truly understand, he's fast, but they're faster, the machine can peer into his soul and hear the thoughts he considers private. In a very interesting way, we were never given an incomplete view of the way the world worked; we were always given an incomplete view of the way the worl
The big secret in this one is (spoiler)... (Score:5, Funny)
The Animatrix is Crutial Now (Score:3, Insightful)
revolutions trialer (Score:3, Informative)
The music and sound, acting and directing. (Score:4, Interesting)
These groups can do good songs, but not this time around. Not one song stuck with me at all. Everyone I think can hear the music from the first one when they recall certain scenes, ie the lobby scene. I actually got the soundtrack for the first one cause it was really good, and I'm not even a real "techno" fan.
So that's that, the second thing and this might've just been the theater and my position(although I was right smack dab in the middle) was that the sound lacked power. Landed punches felt about as powerful as fly smacking into a window.
Lastly, that speech by Morpheus was rather painful. Fishbourne(sp?) is a much better actor than that scene showed.
Why are the traitors bald guys with facial hair? And didn't Tank survive?
my impressions (with spoiler) (Score:5, Interesting)
I totally agree that the dance/love scene toward the beginning was bad. In fact, it was absolutely stupid and long. Maybe 5 minutes. I turned to my brother and said "wake me when they get back to the movie".
The rest is good. Excellent action, fast pace, excellent effects. You sit there for, what- 2 hours or so, the whole time very focused. One friend didn't go because he figured the huge crowd would be loud. It wasn't...people with popcorn didn't even eat their popcorn once the movie started...because they were sitting and watching, not blinking and I'm not sure about breathing.
The freeway scene is amazing. You might also notice that every single car is a GM product...but who cares? I'd have loved it even if they were all Fords.
The ending is not just abrupt. It's incredibly abrupt. Your jerk sister waltzed into the theater and changed the channel then hid the remote.
Spoiler stuff...
Don't blame me if you read this!
By the time the movie is over, it seems to me that the secret of the Matrix is revealed too much. My theory: they never left the Matrix. They're inside a Matrix within a Matrix kind of thing. It would explain how Agent Smith is able to infect a person inside the Matrix and, in a sense, return with that person to the "real" world. It would also explain Neo's trick at the end with the Sentinels. It would also explain why he's in a coma (essentially he blue-screens because he acted contrary to this outer Matrix's logic rules). I'm not complaining about this Matrix within a Matrix...just that I wish it didn't seem so obvious. Ah, but still, I'm sure I'll be surprised.
I wasn't too happy with the direction they took The Oracle. But, it works well. All the stuff that The Architect tells Neo...it's interesting. And, it totally explains how anyone (ie. The Oracle and Neo) is able to know the future.
Generally, though, one thing I liked about M1 is that you felt Agent Smith was acting on direct behalf, and with near total knowledge of, the mainframe. You felt that if Agent Smith lacked any piece of information on Neo it was because the Mainframe did. Neo represented a mysterious and perhaps uncontrollable force to the entire system. In M2 we see that's not the case at all. It was kinda disappointing to see that every single programmed manifestation (any 'person' that is not tied to a real body, like the Agents, but not an Agent...and there are many)...every single one of them seem to know every single thing there is to know about Neo. Only Neo is out of the loop, and he doesn't seem to mind much. For the story to work, what The Architect explains to Neo about Neo's true purpose and the looping nature of the Matrix...well, of course everyone knows everything about Neo except Neo. But, I just missed the treatment in M1 that gave a feeling of vulnerability to the system.
Here's one thought that might blow your mind...if I'm right about the Matrix within a Matrix, then given some of what The Architect explained...it would seem that Neo isn't tied to a real body at all. He's another programmed manifestation. In the next movie, when all the minds are freed from whatever they are really trapped within (if any are, since this could all be a simulation within a single PC) then Neo won't be joining Trinity on the outside...
Other little thoughts:
- I thought the Twins would play an important role of some kind. They don't.
- Every single programmed manifestation seems to be programmed as a philosopher. They all wax on about causallity or fate or something deep.
- Morpheus and Trinity have both improved their fighting skills. So much so that, Morpheus at least, actually holds his own pretty well against an Agent in an excellent fight scene. Either that...or it seems the Agent's have forgotten how to move fast.
- You're never quite sure why Agent Smith is in the movie. There's the notion of exiled programs that continue to exist, but they've bucked the system themselves. Agent Sm
Yet another take on it (Score:5, Interesting)
It puts a whole bunch of things together. 1 - It means the whole human battery thing is just made up, which makes sense 2 - It means the machines have a much higher level of control that we thought in the first movie. So much in fact that they can accurately create a prophecy. That's what really bothered me about the first movie, how could something within the matrix make predictions about the future, they didn't control events outside of the matrix. The one could just get sick and die outside of the matrix. Not so in this new world. 3 - It explains why the earth's sky is still covered, prevents humans from seeing the starts and learning the correct year. 4 - It explains why agent smith could take over a person outside of the original matrix.
This system would work for the machines unless the anomaly person, i.e. Neo, was also an anomaly person in the second matrix as well. I'm guessing the odds of this are very very low and its the first time that has happened. Which means the machines could have been in control for billions of years.... Overall a very good twist.
Wireless NEO--not a 2nd Matrix (Score:4, Insightful)
I think its strange in a movie with so many takes at the fallibility of perception and versimilitude that people don't take seriously the possiblity that Neo has gained powers outside the Matrix, and insist that what he emerges in must be a second matrix. If he is the 6th iteration of an anomaly that gets stranger every time, why not? (I do take the 6 as a reference to the Mayan world epoch calender, any version number will do honestly). He has a connection to Agent Smith- another anomalous intelligence (artificial or otherwise) with insight to the system as a whole.
If we grudgenly accept the human as batteries thing, why can't Neo take his connection to machines wireless in the "real" world? Part of him still jacked into the matrix and therefore the system, and therefore the machines. Before you know it he can take them over...
Agent Smith can just as easily take over someone by taking over their code- the brain wiring. People are jacked in as brains, not bodies. When he envelopes the person in the matrix, he's refashioning their entire minds to fit his own. And when they wake up, they're agent smith. He should theoretically be disoriented in non-matrix real world, but if he maintains a kind of hive consciouness trhough a connect to the system (which he senses better than Neo, per their covnersations- a connection Smith acknowledges but Neo just likes to answer "I know" to everything. I don't think he does know.) perhaps he copes together as a Hive mind.
Considering the prophecy notions- taking the Melvigian (sp?) take on human behavior as pure human impulse through causality- you'd figure a lot of what anyone is planning ought to be able to be statistically predicted by the an architect, or any massive computer. Esp. if- more than being programs, as the Archtiect mentioned, even your checmical reactions in the body (DNA as source code) could be influenced. Its a fundamental paradox in the idea of an all-knowing Creator/God. What's the difference between an ineffable plan and predestination. And if there is a plan, which will always play out since God is an expert-what is the pt?
How it all pans out- choice vs. being controlled, is up to a personal view or the W bros. Considering the they're alive hopefulness of the Morpheus speeechs, I lean away from the Matrix within a Matrix/ Prisoner "Who is number one" take - though I admit its possibly. I just don't feel they'ed end it with a box inside a box endless loop of questioning.
neo is the first fully unpredictable person who manipulates the choices as well as the architect program. The no-win of the two doors turned into a win- or delay fo the endgame in the "real world."
Something interesting I noticed (slight spoiler) (Score:3, Informative)
One funny thing I noticed:
In the scene where the Architect is talking to Neo (with all of the TV screens), when the Architect is talking about all of the atrocities (I think that's the word he used) that the humans have committed, as soon as he says the word "atrocity," a picture of George W. appears on the screens behind him. Coincidence? I think not.
Re:Don't ruin the ending (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Hell! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Hell! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Did the Matrix 2 suck, or was it just me? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:my "SPOILER" insights.... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Not a problem (Score:3, Interesting)
Shortly before The Matrix we saw Dark City, a really great movie with a different take on that very question. And even before that, there was a ST:TNG episode where Riker was imprisoned and studied by his captors on a simulated Enterprise.
Armed with that kind of
Re:Actually, you're right. (Score:5, Funny)
Only (Score:4, Informative)
On a somewhat related note, a good book to pickup is Philosophy and the Matrix, which goes into depth about some of the philosophical ideas touched on in the movie (Descartes mad scientist / brain in a jar sceneriao, etc.).
Re:Actually, you're right. (Score:5, Funny)
There is definitely an overabundance of elitist philosophical assholes on Slashdot...
But I guess that is like pointing out that there is a lot of corn in Nebraska.
Re:Actually, you're right. (Score:3, Insightful)
You would be equally correct in assuming that the notion of a virtual reality world created and maintained by a computer-based intelligence reflects actual work done by artificial intelligence researchers. Which is to say, you wouldn't be correct at all.
[D]oes attending one or more philosophy classes always turn
Re:Actually, you're right. (Score:5, Insightful)
Basic questions about "What is real?" which form one backdrop of the matrix, are much, much older. Oracular paradoxes -- "What's really going to bake your noodle later is if you would have done it if I hadn't have said anything" -- are part of greek mythology. "Know thyself" -- beleive it's on a plaque on the wall in the Oracle's house. Then there's the whole "on one hand... on the other hand..." thing, which I was assured by a philosophy major friend is very greek. I think it's safe to say there are nods/borrowings from real philosophical traditions.
Well, curiously enough, it does make you think you know more about philosophy. I don't mean to be an "elitist asshole" here, but if you pick up even a short history of Western philosophy (e.g., the books by Kenny or Magee), you'll see that people have been thinking really hard about philosophical questions for a very long time, and that "The Matrix" doesn't address those questions in anything other than a superficial way.
But curiously enough, the same philosophy major friend I mentioned above -- who could digest continental philosophers, which I've always found completely obtuse -- actually found a fair bit of pleasure in the above touches/nods to philosophy, despite the fact that they weren't necessarily complete treatments.
But in the end, "The Matrix" is about philosophy to about the same extent that "Raiders Of The Lost Ark" is about archaeology, which is to say not very much at all.
And yet the interesting thing is, if you pay attention, you can actually pick up a thing or two about actual history. Neither is a formal treatment of the subject matter they use as a vehicle, it's a story. But story, in turn, can be an effective vehicle for an awful lot of good things. Including basic questions about what is real. Thousands if not millions of people who would have looked at you like you were in need of some time with a mental health professional if you were to talk about brains in jars and evil demons and shadows on the wall
Of course, that's the frustrating part. Where someone encounters knowledge you've had for a while, well-treaded ground, and they think it's sacred and deep. But the longer you go through this world, the more that experience becomes commonplace, so it's good to learn to handle it gracefully.
Re:Actually, you're right. (Score:4, Interesting)
While I agree that whatever philosophy is in the Matrix is basically of the "PHIL 101: Introduction to Philosophy" sort, I don't really see how you can say it doesn't derive much of its material from existing philosophical sources. Plato's Allegory of the Cave isn't an existing philosophical source?
Re:Actually, you're right. (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, I think I'd rather pick up "The Matrix". I don't think even you would be interested in a movie version of any particular history of Western philosophy. (Unless there's a good nude scene with Wollstonecraft of course...)
But really, I think the "elitist asshole" thing comes from your looking down on people who dare to discuss philosophy in a context ("The Matrix") that a lot of other people are familiar with. I think you've spent a lot of time studying the subject, and don't want to admit to yourself that the time was wasted because there aren't really any answers, and the questions can be fairly clearly presented, even to lay people, by a movie that spends most of its time on Kung-Fu.
Philosophy is a whole bunch of speculating about answerless questions. Anyone can do it. Some people don't like that, so they pretend the important part is not the speculation, but familiarity with the speculations of others. Which turns things on it's head. Rather than responding to someones mention of Plato's cave by saying "No, no, this Descartes quotation is more on point", a good philosopher should be able talk about the ideas in "The Matrix" intelligently.
So:
Descartes is more on point because he imagined being deceived by a malevolent entity rather than by the nature of perception itself. e.g. Even if you assume you are capable of perceiveing reality, you cannot be sure you actually are. This is an interesting idea, which you can think about for as long as you want, and even write big, hard to understand books about (despite the fact that it's not very hard to understand), but eventually you should get on with your life, because unless someone offers you the red and blue pills, it just doesn't matter.
I read the Descartes a long while ago now, so perhaps you can point out some other interesting ideas of his. If you can cast the relevant thought experiments in Matrix terms, I'll think you might have promise as a philosopher. If you insist they can only be grasped by someone who has studied the original Descartes, I'll think your an elitist asshole. (And then I'll point out that you undoubtably read it in translation, which really isn't acceptable if you expect me to deign to discuss it with you...)
Re: No, not always (Score:5, Insightful)
Most philosophy professors are also way out there, completely detached from reality. Since philosophy is primarily about life, most of these people just didn't seem to get it. They either were obsessed with the academic favorites (Descartes, Marx, Kant) or with the new ethical philosophers (peter singer, animal rights). I always leaned much more towards Plato, Aristotle, and Nietzsche but I had to read most of their works on my own time.
University study of philosophy CAN make people elitist however, because certain works by certain philosophers are simply too complex to study without devoting months of your time. Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is a behemoth, Marx's Das Capital has still never been completely read by any man alive today. Both books are bigger than all of Plato's writings combined. Das Capital is easily longer than all of Nietzsche's writings combined.
In most cases, I don't believe a man's self esteem will allow him to read a book for a year and say afterwards "That was a load of crap". They inherently begin to believe what they are reading not only has value, but only someone who spends their life reading it can understand it.
Anyway, that is a rambling theory...
Re: No, not always (Score:3, Informative)
Re: No, not always (Score:5, Interesting)
Pray tell, what exactly are these problems of which you speak? Further, how would my education pertain to these problems?
Personally, philosophy study has taught me quite a bit about historical philosophical thought in a variety of realms and also modern controversies and the recovery from the now-widely-criticized Cartesian split.
Did you type that for a resume or something? That seems like a rather narrow benefit to gained your love of wisdom. It is also, to use a more vulgar expression, utter bullshit.
You can write all you want about how worthless your education was, but that is just it: it was your education.
Ahh I can see where this is going, apparently you haven't learned one of the first lessons of philosophy, and that is moderation. Your response is already far out of proportion to what was a rather innocent and obviously light hearted post. Perhaps you didn't notice the parent post regarding how university philosophy professor are out of touch with reality. As pretty much any serious student of philosophy would easily admit, college is only the beginning of what is a life long journey.
Philosophy is great, and I have learned more from philosophy (that I can apply to my actual life) than I have in any of my other studies, though I am a triple major (philosophy, German, psychology), as well as a professional technical writer, and contracting network administrator/web designer.
Like I said, I don't believe you have mastered some of the more basic concepts of self control and moderation but I am glad your studies suited your needs. I must say however that unless you attended a school with less than demanding standards a triple major is hard to believe. I attended a top jesuit university and I could barely finish math and philosophy in four years, with fairly substantial AP credit. What relevence this has to our discussion, I don't know... but I feel like ripping on you.
I can't reasonably hope to disprove your non-coginitivist claims about your personal experience, but if you want to talk about _facts_, you mentioned a few that seemed ludicrous to me:
Why am I not surprised you have decided to use some 20th century buzz word. Please, by all means, let me know what non-cognitivist claims I am making... You read the opinion of a former philosophy student, I would love to see what claims you derived from a flippant post.
However, the reason you did not learn about the Critique in you undergraduate program is because you would need to spend an extremely intense period of time studying it -- usually in a course during graduate school.
Actually, I had to take a whole class in it. Having attended a Jesuit university meant that most classes revolved around theistic philosophers, and as that single book is the best weapon a theist has for defending his faith it was required.
Second, to say that Das Kapital has never been completely read by any man alive today is ridiculous, unless you mean only that it has never been fully understood by any man alive today, which is a question that is impossible to resolve.
Apparently, in your vast studies of philosophy and literature, you have never encountered the rhetorical device of exaggeration. Since such poetic devices are used frequently by Nietzsche, it seems you are unfamiliar with one major philosopher otherwise you would not have taken my words so literally.
This seems strange in one of the most thorough philosophy programs in the country, but as one of my professors said: we leave Marx for the less intelligent political science theorists.
I think that claim is another example of how you embody the very problem with academia today. I will not comment on Marx here, but it is unreasonable for a learned individual to dismiss any profoundly effective work as someth
No, of course not. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Actually, you're right. (Score:3, Interesting)
I've heard this same diatribe from several people, worded almost the same way. Not actually having taken a philosophy class myself, I thought the first Matrix was fairly thought-provoking, and I assumed it derived much of its material from preexisting philosophical sources.
Interesting. My university studies focused around communication and cultural theory, which involved a lot of study of the role of advertising and PR as the "new rhetoric" and the ways in which ideology is spread and hegemony is maint
Re:Philosophy Classes Don't Matter (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Geeky things to yell at the right times (Score:3, Insightful)
Three things:
First, I was far from the first person to laugh, yell, crap, or shout comments, and the audience was having a good time.
Second, their was a loud roar of laughter and approving comments from the wide majority of viewers around me, 99% of which were teenage boys.
Third, I'm not exactly scrawny. Yo