Marriage May Tame Genius 941
theodp writes "Here's one to share with the wife and kids. Using a database of the biographies of 280 great scientists, a psychologist at the University of Canterbury in New Zealand has concluded that creative genius is turned off almost like a tap if a man gets married and has children, regardless of age."
Aw, cripes (Score:4, Funny)
It must have NOTHING to do with the fact that I'm now in my early 30's and married just over one year now. So, basically
At least I won't knock over the 7-11 on whim while out on my midnight smoke run. Oh, wait, pussy whipped...Quitting.
Damn it Spock, we need more testosterone.
Re:Aw, cripes (Score:5, Funny)
It's just that most (ordinary) women aren't really much for issues bigger than the Cable Bill and What Emmy Said To Susan About Dana's Relationship With Kevin and so on.
I disinclude geek women here - you ladies are a breed apart and I salute you.
Just try thinking about a Grand Unified Theory when someone is whining at you about how you forgot to clean out the f***ing cat box again.
Re:Aw, cripes (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course his wife was like "All I want for my birthday is a Proof" (probably not adding, "so I can start nagging you about taking out the garbage!")
Re:Aw, cripes (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Aw, cripes (Score:4, Funny)
Would that be an African or European swallow?
A genious would never get married ;) (Score:5, Funny)
Re:A genious would never get married ;) (Score:3, Funny)
Re:A genious would never get married ;) (Score:4, Funny)
Re:A genious would never get married ;) (Score:3)
Correct. However, it seems to me that the story has it ass-about. Creative genius does not occur solely in sciences. I can think of any number of people whose creative talent was undiminished by marriage and children. Johann Sebastian Bach, for a start...
Re:Aw, cripes (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, maybe it is just that the creative genius changes to some extent.... Obviously children require a creative attitude towards, so maybe they become the focus of the creative genius instead of things like computers, physics, etc... What do you all think?
Re:Aw, cripes (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Aw, cripes (Score:3, Funny)
Creative Genius (Score:3, Funny)
Now that's what I call genius...
Re:Aw, cripes (Score:4, Interesting)
I think the process goes something like this: Man sits around thinking up smart stuff all day, which requires a certain amount of practice. You don't just wake up thinking smart stuff - you kinda gotta work into it. Those first ideas upon waking are probably not going to be winners in anyone's book.
To continue, then, one day, Woman gets introduced into the environment. So now Man has to go have sex. Hey, he thinks, this is fun - maybe I better practice this instead. So now, instead of thinking up smart stuff all the time, he's having sex and thinking up smart stuff, not in equal measure and probably without a whole lot of consideration to the fact that smart stuff requires practice, just like sex.
So, now all of a sudden, he's dumb as a rock. Dumber even. Except it doesn't matter. Wow, he thinks, I don't have to be smart to have sex - in fact, Woman get's pretty upset when I think up smart stuff while having sex, so maybe it's just better if I have sex and stop trying to be so smart all the time.
That's my view of how genius ends.
As to the claim that one doesn't have to be to bright to have sex - go to any Walmart sometime. There's the proof right there. I swear they import hillbillies to attend every Walmart. There's can't be that many badly dressed, foul-mouthed, gaptoothed ignorami with equally dumb spawn in the world, can there?
Re:Aw, cripes (Score:3, Funny)
The longer you've been married, the longer you learn to go with out sex. For example...
A single man looks at a married man who has 4 kids. He thinks "Wow, they must have sex all the time to have 4 kids".
A married man looks at a married man who has 4 kids. He thinks "Wow, he's had sex 4 times"...
Re:Aw, cripes (Score:4, Insightful)
3) Volunteer at the local elementary school twice a year (or less if you don't have THAT much time waste)
That way you can save on the price of the nanny, and leave the child rearing to LOVING parents. I know you probably think this is serious flame-bait, but if you are going to create a human being, then it is YOUR responsibility to raise them. If you don't want that responsibility, don't take it on.
********************
Re: No, that *is* flamebait.... (Score:3, Insightful)
D'OH! (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, I don't know why the average Slashdot reader would need to know either fact.
Re:D'OH! (Score:2)
"I don't have time to read it. Just give me the gist of it, son."
Re:D'OH! (Score:2)
It's not
Btw, the parent poster misspelled "genius" as "genus". Maybe he's married?
Re:D'OH! (Score:5, Funny)
If we ask the dictionary, nerd means:
.sig is fake.
1. A foolish, inept, or unattractive person.
2. A person who is single-minded or accomplished in scientific or technical pursuits but is felt to be socially inept.
Genius is often associated with the second definition, but I don't think that the correlation operates in both directions.
Genius -> possible/probable nerd.
Nerd -> slim possibility of genius; most likely overestimates self and has difficulting interacting with others.
Slashdotter(ave.) -> Has extreme dillusion regarding self intelligence, spastic personality, highly likely to have difficulty with simple social interaction.
--
This
Re:D'OH! (Score:5, Funny)
WHAT?!1?! I don't have to take this! I'm too smart for this - what kind of mickey mouse shit are you passing for insightful comments?!? How dare you insult one as smart as I?!?
Re:D'OH! (Score:3, Funny)
Didn't you get the memo? The RIAA is in the midst of getting the vast majority of /.ers reclassified as criminals.
Getting married may wipe out creative genius, but at least it will also liberate us from our dastardly digital music sharing.
Re:D'OH! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:D'OH! (Score:5, Funny)
So, to sum it up, you get married you will not longer: compose scores; create masterpieces; write the Great American novel; or use peer-to-peer networks.
Gee, I'm glad you'll at least be able to have sex. Wait. Nevermind. You'll be married.
I could use more of BOTH! (Score:5, Insightful)
Now I'm so tired from the commute and the 9-to-5 and I have to pay attention to all this other shit (cats, girlfriend, email, bills, car care, lawn, landlord) I don't have any room left for being creative.
You Need A Wife And A Mistress. (Score:5, Funny)
Old JPL humor:
Every engineer should have both a wife and a mistress.
You tell your wife you're spending the night with your mistress, and your mistress you're spending the night with your wife...
Re:D'OH! (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, they say Mediocrity borrows while Genius steals, so maybe the two are more closely related than ya think...
On the other hand, people talk about Hemingway having one good book for each wife... so if you're a genius and worried, you can still be a serial polygamist.
Re:D'OH! (Score:3, Interesting)
I think it's more closely related to potential. The more potential you have, the more options you have to exercise that potential. So if, for example, you're really smart, you're left with a choice of how you want to use that intelligence. Either for something productive (genius) or for something antisocial (crime).
As far as getting married and having kids and the impact that it has on
Two words sum it all up..... (Score:5, Funny)
"yes dear...."
The old saying. (Score:5, Funny)
Then, he's finished."
Output, not potential (Score:5, Insightful)
Most recognized genuses have the luxury of working with little to no distraction. When you have a wife, financial trouble, and screaming children, it's rather hard to plumb the secrets of the universe.
This is no surprise to anyone.
Re:Output, not potential (Score:5, Insightful)
But most geniuses make bad relationship decisions. In fact, most of the other geniuses (especially computer programmers and physicists for some reason) that I know are morons in this area. So how about this.
Marriage itself doesn't necessarily cause brain impotence, bad choices in interpersonal relationships do.
So kids, the moral of the story...
Don't think with your dick.
So there.
Re:Output, not potential (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Output, not potential (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Output, not potential (Score:5, Interesting)
If our society raised women better, so that they'd pick better partners (not the asshole/badboy type), not become single mothers in their youth, get a good education, go into intellectual fields, not be whiny bitches, etc., then maybe we wouldn't have this problem and more of these genius men could find suitable companions.
Re:Output, not potential (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Output, not potential (Score:3, Insightful)
This is why I like me
Re:Output, not potential (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Output, not potential (Score:3, Interesting)
I would seriously urge anyone reading this post to think very hard about how they view intellectual accomplishment, and decide if they think a male-dominated conception of intellectual greatness is either fair or rational.
I'm not sure why you think this a zealous position, or how it is telling people what they should or should not think. I am also not sure what your argument is. You have said there are more great male than female geniuses. I agree. You said it is ridiculous to cha
Re:Output, not potential (Score:3, Insightful)
Most recognized genuses have the luxury of working with little to no distraction. When you have a wife, financial trouble, and screaming children, it's rather hard to plumb the secrets of the universe.
That's not the reason. We work hard because we're competitive, and we're most competitive when we're looking for a mate whether or not it's intentional. When they get a wife (or a husband) they just lost a major motivation which is showing off to the oppo
Re:Output, not potential (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Output, not potential (Score:3, Informative)
When you do all those things and shower.
If intellectualism were a draw for women, there wouldn't be all these stereotypes about geeks not getting laid.
The reason why geeks don't get laid are simple to understand:
Just because someone is intellectual, does not make them a geek. Many of the stupidest [slashdot.org] people [slashdot.org] I know [slashdot.org] call themselves
Re:Output, not potential (Score:5, Funny)
Most recognized genuses also have the luxury of being made up of several different species.
Re:Output, not potential (Score:3, Informative)
Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family Genus Species
("King Phillip Crossed Over From Grant Street" is the usual mnemonic).
Re:Output, not potential (Score:4, Insightful)
But Tolstoy's take on it was that the fire and edge and all that she had when she was single was really a consequence of her desire, her longing for a family; and now that she has it, she is satisfied.
Obviously I don't put it nearly as well as Tolstoy did, but it was a neat observation. Probably the same thing applies. I don't buy the "trying to attract a mate" obligatory darwinism crap; but I do buy that energy, fire, edge, whatever can come from our lack of fulfillment, and that fulfillment has the side-effect of turning off our "genius".
Luckily, I'm still single, so I might make it big yet...
Just to make /.ers feel good (Score:5, Funny)
Just proves: (Score:5, Funny)
:)
The marriage part...well, I'll let her explain it.
I am one such genius (Score:5, Funny)
People change their priorities. (Score:5, Insightful)
I belive the biggest change comes when your children are born, after which your whole life changes. You no longer live for yourslef but ever decision is based on the children. They are the most important thing in your life, work is nothing....!
A proud father.
Re:People change their priorities. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:People change their priorities. (Score:5, Insightful)
The thought of my entire life revolving around kids makes me cringe.
Then by all means, don't have them. The last thing the world needs is another daddy who doesn't want to be one. Not a slam but I get the feeling my single/childless friends expect me to try and talk them into having children. Not me! If no kids is the life for you, rock on.
Re:People change their priorities. (Score:3, Interesting)
Honestly, I was very uncertain about having kids. Scared, in fact. My kids are now 11 and 6.
At some point after the first kid was born, I realized "THIS is what it's all about. This is IT, I wan't even living before. I had no idea what life was about before now."
I now live in a greatly expanded world that I wouldn't even have known if I'd followed my initial feelings. Just like I'm sure you are thinking right now as you read this, when I heard pe
At last!! (Score:5, Funny)
Fear not! (Score:2, Funny)
It's all right? (Score:5, Funny)
Time to go back to the high school jocks and teach 'em who was right afterall.
They thought I couldn't get sex.... I was simply trying to maintain my genius.
Re:It's all right? (Score:3, Funny)
Sorry, no... Study says you just have to remain unmarried - but you can feel free to get all the sex you can.
Or maybe this implies something about your lack of genius. ;)
j/k
-T
Yep. (Score:5, Funny)
"France lost a great novel last night."
Little known fact: (Score:5, Funny)
It's called "wedding cake."
bah-dum..*ching*
No surprise here... (Score:5, Funny)
You might think being an unwashed dedicated geek is enough to repel the opposite sex, but we all know plenty of counter examples. Nope. Castration is the only way to demonstrate that you are a dedicate uber geek.
You first.
oh (Score:5, Funny)
Bach humbug! (Score:5, Informative)
"Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750) was the most prolific of the great composers. In his 65 years he produced 1,200 musical works and 20 children. You can find his compositions listed in an encyclopedia." [geocities.com]
(For the mathematically minded, that's 60 musical works per child. Isn't P.D.Q. #21 ?)
Yeah, it's either bad science logic or... (Score:5, Insightful)
"Marriage tames Genius" is so much better a headline than "Genius burns out, then gets married."
Remember, causality is very hard to prove either way.
Still more geniuses with children (Score:5, Informative)
Einstein? Two sons there.
Frank Lloyd Wright? World's greatest architect (he said so himself, and not many argue with it). 6 children (or was it 7?)
Re:Still more geniuses with children (Score:3, Insightful)
Look at classical Greece. It was quite common for men to have large families with their wives locked at home, engage in sexual relationships with young boys, not to mention have the occasional drunken symposium with lots of prostitutes and wine.
It used to be an accepted fact that women have a negative impact upon masculine creativity and they should be prevented from dominating a man's life and ti
Re:Still more geniuses with children (Score:4, Insightful)
It used to be an accepted fact that women have a negative impact upon masculine creativity and they should be prevented from dominating a man's life and time as much as possible.
It's an accepted fact that men have a negative impact upon feminine creativity and should be prevented from dominating a woman's life and time as much as possible. The traditional view of marriage sees the wife as housekeeper, mother, cook, caretaker, etc... all roles that ask her to serve others, instead of expressing herself or being creative. Yes, those jobs are important, and involve some creativity - but not in ways that society respets in men, such as writing, research, or art. Why do you think there was a whole movement by women so that being unmarried wouldn't be stigmatized like in the past? Do you think that *maybe* the 'traditional marriage' you refer to is the reason women have made up a minority of artists and scientists?
Hell, you're not even affirming commited relationships - you seem to approve of men "[having] their wives locked at home, engage[ing] in sexual relationships with young boys, not to mention have the occasional drunken symposium with lots of prostitutes and wine." As if drunkenly fucking a young boy makes you more creative, and demanding that one sleep only with a spouse is, like, waaaay too confining, man... free love(for the men), you dig? I won't even get into the fact that you disapprove of women 'flauning their bodies' a few paragraphs later.
The poster reminds me of this exchange from "Dr. Strangelove":
Capt. Mandrake: Uh, Jack, Jack, listen, tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you first... become... well, develop this theory?
General Ripper: Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.
Capt. Mandrake: Hmm.
General Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.
Capt. Mandrake: Hmm.
General Ripper: I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mandrake.
Capt. Mandrake: No.
General Ripper: But I... I do deny them my essence.
Re:Bach humbug! (Score:3, Informative)
Madam Curie (Score:4, Interesting)
I think it depends on who you marry mostly - in Madam Curie's case - her husband Pierre was a helpmate. And anyways - the article states that most scientists drop out at 30 or after 5 years (of marriage). Well - if most people get married about 24 (assumming Geeks marry late) or so - 5 years later they're 30.
Ha ha! (Score:2)
This is great! I have two scenerios in my head:
1. Man, hard five-o'clock shadow, wearing apron, cig hangin out of his mouth, frying eggs wondering 'how'd I get myself into this'.
2. Man sitting on couch, staring into space and kids repeatedly hit him on the head with nerf sword yelling 'play Harry Potter with us'.
What's worse and definitely not funny, btw, is that I'm just around the corner from tha
This is a surprise? (Score:2)
Lack of regular sex will do that to you...
Re:This is a surprise? (Score:3, Interesting)
bachelor for life
Can you do both? (Score:2)
This is probably good news (Score:2, Funny)
Amazing! (Score:2)
Suprise, Suprise... (Score:2, Insightful)
smells funny (Score:2)
Just one point though.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't you think that after fighting for the attention of women, the "scientist" would go ahead and concentrate on other stuff: his scientific career? You know with one thing out of the way, even lesser mortals like us pay attention to other issues.
Just a thought. I wonder what happens to women scientists when they get married!
Re:Just one point though.. (Score:5, Funny)
The wife assumes you are with the mistress,
The mistress assume you are with the wife,
So you can go to the lab and get some work done.
Of course this requires two nigh-impossible things - namely a wife and a mistress.
what about women? (Score:3, Insightful)
Are we supposed to guess women aren't affected by this? Maybe the study isnt sexist but the article covering it sure is...
Fruedian article. (Score:5, Insightful)
Dr Kanazawa suggests "a single psychological mechanism" is responsible for this: the competitive edge among young men to fight for glory and gain the attention of women.
Isn't this what Freud said nearly 100 years ago?
Association vs. Causation (Score:5, Interesting)
Cheers,
IT
Redirect your energy!! (Score:3, Funny)
DiaperGene (a small company created by former scientists that married and had children) today introduced AutoWipe. Much like the 'autowash' process we all loved in "The Fifth Element", AutoWipe simply bolts onto most cribs for infants and toddlers. The AutoWipe uses backscatter x-ray technology to detect when a #1 or #2 enters any standard diaper, and proceeds to automatically change and dispose of the diaper. A built in incinerator module disposes of the used diaper, and is powered off standard LP portable tanks manufactured by Coleman or etc.. Additionally customers can purchase a module that uses a wireless connection to e-mail or page the parent when the diaper supply is low. All this without harm to your children, and without that eye-opening smell.
Parents everywhere delight!
Ob Simpsons quote (Score:3, Funny)
"That's right, sweetie. The defective 'Simpson Gene' is on the Y chromosome, so only men are affected."
"So I'm not doomed! Oh, Dad, I've never been so glad to be your daughter!"
Being vs Becoming successful... (Score:5, Interesting)
(There's a similar thing with cars: If you're single, having a cool sports-car will help you attract women. Once you've married, she'll want you to trade it in for something more 'practical'.)
No wonder then... (Score:5, Funny)
Curse you Linus! Divorce her for the freedom of mankind!
Losing the competitive edge or getting a life? (Score:5, Insightful)
As a young female scientist, I object to the slightest intimation of the idea that the only way good science gets done is because young (presumably male) scientists are trying to compete for female attention. How many young male scientists out their have managed to impress girls with their thesis results anyway?
On the other hand, I find it entirely plausible that scientists of both genders who get married and have families often find their priorities rearranged. Discovering that having a family means a less obsessive attention to your career shouldn't be a surprise to anyone with a balanced view of life.
Luckily for many male scientists at institutions such as the one where I'm a student (MIT), they DO have wives who often stay home at least part time, enabling them to maintain something close to the obsessively competitive hours they put in before marriage and kids. That applies for all but one of the male professors in my department. For female scientists, it's much rarer to have a house-husband. The two female professors in my department only manage because their salary combined with their husband's allows them to hire people to help with household chores and raising the kids. Any female scientist who can't come up with a substitute for a housewife finds it very, very difficult to compete.
Re:Losing the competitive edge or getting a life? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not marriage, it's the nagging (Score:3, Funny)
"Albert, get this chalk board out of the living room, NOW!"
"Johan Sebastian Bach stop that infernal racket this instant!"
"Rene! Cartesian my ass, help me with the laundry!"
I mean genius has it's limits.
An explanation of why (Score:5, Insightful)
Now let's say you're married. This chips away at the amount of free time, but not too much. Maybe this cuts down your evenings a bit, and you never do anything on Friday, but it's still a lot of time.
Now you have kids. To make a long story short, this takes away most of your evenings and weekends, dropping you from 20-30 free hours a week to a few here and there which you have to plan far ahead for and during which you're most likely going to be very tired. It's hard to want to jump into a creative activity during those few hours.
Also, you likely have a house by this point. Now you have maintenance and mowing and so on to eat up any free hours you may have. The realization hits you that even if you could write the great american novel it would take three years of 1-2 hours per week to finish it.
Causality is not addressed (Score:3, Insightful)
The article does a pretty crappy job of demonstrating causality.
While the findings may indeed be true that those who are married exhibit a decrease in creative output, the study doesn't say whether or not "Creative men who's creativity is beginning to wane may suddenly get married" --or -- "Consistently creative men are less likely to marry", or in fact as the article suggests: "Marriage decreases creativity".
Genius/Creativity vs. Stablity/Happiness (Score:5, Insightful)
A broader look at the subject would show a parallel with a more modern topic: anti-depression medications. There are plenty of examples of highly creative people -- geniuses in their fields -- whose creativity would likely have been quashed if they'd had access to a good Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitor. Poet Emily Dickinson [washingtonpost.com] and artist Vincent Van Gogh [vangoghgallery.com] come to mind, but I'm sure there are many others.
The problem, as I see it, isn't that having a family takes something away from a would-be genius... any more than an appropriate dosage of Prozac does. What both do, ideally, is give the person a sense of contentment, a feeling that things are the way they should be.
Creativity, in the end, often requires adversity to bring it out. Remove the adversity, and the creativity (or "genius") may seem to be extinguished. But as the examples in this discussion show -- Bach, Hawking, et al -- it is possible to achieve both genius and happiness. It just doesn't happen very often.
Euler and others (Score:4, Informative)
One biography says of him:
"He was blind for the last 17 years of his life, and during that time his mathematical productivity actually increased. It was said that Euler had tremendous powers of concentration and that he was even able to do mathematics 'with a baby in his lap while the older children played all about him.'"
If the trend is that people become less creative after they marry, it is likely due to a lack of time rather than any suppresion of the creative instinct.
If the study had concentrated on people for whom creativity was essential to their livelihood I doubt there'd be a correlation between creativity and being married. Many artists and writers are married and still turn out works of genius. Some don't even become famous for their works until long after they're married, for example J.K. Rowlings (a woman, I know, and whether or not you like Harry Potter it is a great work), and Stephen King(one of the most prolific writers of our time).
Vindication! (Score:3, Funny)
I have yet to see a friend become MORE interesting after marriage, or even manage to tread water and remain a good ol' guy.
And now, a study supports my theory. Of course, I am still waiting eagerly for some chickie to come along and make ME a bore...
Well, of COURSE! (Score:3, Funny)
Once they are married... well, what's the point?
What great brainstorm you going to tell us next? Women tend to gain weight after they get married?
Data vs. Interpretation (Score:5, Insightful)
Or to turn a different interpretation on this data, once married, a scientist is less likely to be able to spend 15 hours a day in the lab.
Well, this should be a very easy hypothesis to test. Female scientists should show less of a drop after their marriage, since they should be less affected by the "all-important male hormone."
This guy theorizes that testosterone levels drop after marriage, and therefore so does the competitive drive, and therefore one's level of contribution to science. This seems to be a LOT of interpretation to read into a small amount of data.
Ahh.. (Score:3, Funny)
No matter? (Score:3, Funny)
I could go on...but that seems kinda silly to do...
You can either be a great person or a great parent (Score:3, Interesting)
Lots of great people have tried to be parents. What happened? They ended up being "distant", "unknowable" (i.e., shitty) parents becuase they were spending no time with their kids. After all, they couldn't afford to spend any time with their kids -- all of their precious time was spent doing things that made them into a great person.
And what is the primary requisite for being a great parent? Spending time with your children! It doesn't have to be some exalted kind of "quality time", just spend time with them! Even watching television with your child is infinitely better than spending no time with your child.
So if you have the desire to be a great person, give up on the idea of having children. You will end up doing a disservice to them.
Re:One plus (Score:5, Insightful)
Why, oh why, does everything have to come back to testosterone for these people? It is, quite possibly, the most overrated hormone of all time. I believe the results are correct, but this causality argument is total bullstuff.
This has nothing to do with man-juice, and everything to do with the allocation of time. You simply cannot build a successful happy relationship with a woman if you are not willing to put her first in your schedule.
As a single, I had approximately 8 more hours per day of play time when nothing was pre-scheduled for me. THAT'S where my 'research' time went -- yardwork, making dinner together, visiting the in-laws, going to movies. You do the math.
I wouldn't trade it for the world, though - well worth the investment.
Re:questions abound (Score:5, Funny)
she gets the house.
you get to be a genius again!