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Digitized Gutenberg Bible Available 432

Posted by simoniker from the bible-named-after-electronic-book-collection dept.
Prince_Ali writes "A digital copy of the Gutenburg Bible, the first major Western book printed from movable type, has been made available by The University of Texas, available through the Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center. The Ransom Center's copy of the Bible is claimed to be the finest in the world, and is now freely available to anyone who would like to examine it. More information can be found via this CNN.com article."
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Digitized Gutenberg Bible Available More

Digitized Gutenberg Bible Available

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  • Easy Now (Score:5, Funny)

    by l810c ( 551591 ) * on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @11:31PM (#6518573)
    /.ing this site is blasphemous.

  • regardless of religion.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sweeney37 ( 325921 ) * <.mikesweeney. .at. .gmail.com.> on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @11:32PM (#6518575) Homepage Journal
    wow, who would of thought the ability to see this work of art is as rare today as when it was first printed.

    it's a very breathtaking and wonderful object to view.

    Mike

  • Props to UT (Score:3, Offtopic)

    by Valar ( 167606 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @11:39PM (#6518581)
    UT is my school. It is waaay underrated as a geek school. It's the #5 engineering school in the country, but no one ever mentions it. They have a lot of projects like this going (plus way geekier ones, like the robot soccer team that recently won a championship, the mechanical engineer's indy car team, and petrol's rig in the basement thing). Hook 'em horns.
    • Ditto. Not only is UT a great engineering school, but austin is a great tech town.

    • Re:Props to UT (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Shamashmuddamiq ( 588220 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:14AM (#6518732)
      ...tell me, have you ever been anywhere else? UT is good, but compared to dozens of other great sci/eng schools around the nation, it's just another engineering school. I myself have attended and taught at several engineering universities that had programs rated higher than UT's (though I don't place too much import on the ratings), and although I never strictly attended UT Austin, I lived in Austin for a year and spent quite a bit of time at the university.

      It's a good thing to have school pride, but don't let it run away with you. UT Austin gets the recognition it deserves (e.g., it's rated highly, etc.). However, the tendency of Texans to give themselves too much credit for stuff like this is all too common, and is a turn-off to the rest of the nation and to those who come to visit. Listing a couple of obscure accomplishments and mentioning that it's "waaay underrated" is only going to invite deign laughter from those in positions similar to mine.

      Just letting you know...you may mod me down now.

      • Re:Props to UT (Score:3, Informative)

        by Valar ( 167606 )
        Well, I must say. You have the uber-large geek testicles. However, I have been other places. This time around, I turned down a lot of those "higher rated" schools (i.e. MIT, CalTech) because I didn't feel like putting up with the loans for school who didn't really have anything special to offer (accept more grant money). And the obscure accomplishments were not "hurrah hurrah for the program", I was just pointing out that UT can be a 'geeky' place too.

      • Re:Props to UT (Score:2, Interesting)

        by ph43thon ( 619990 )
        "deign"? what do you have, a chauffeur? Does your maid butter your toast for you? Do you wear your sweater around your neck and play polo? Let the insane people go to MIT and Stanford after spending their first 18 years in and out of high dollar private preppy schools and taking expensive test prep courses. Then they can go broke pursuing graduate education in some Top 5 school so they can owe $100,000 in loans unless they were lucky enough to be best of the best and get a fellowship. Of course, this is if
    • UT is also my school. It's also a great law school and a great Journalism school (my grad school field of study.)

      It really is one of the best bangs for the educational buck :D

      -- Funksaw
  • The Gutenberg Bible is definitely a work of art and a historical treasure, but as a study Bible it falls quite short.

    To begin with it's all in Latin. Seeing as how Latin is not quite the popular language as it used to be, it is doubtful that a student would be understanding the nuances and meanings of the GB.

    Also, it is simply not available to the general public. While this digitization of it goes a long way to providing easier access to the book, it remains largely inaccessible to those who live in for

    • Re:Christianity and the Gutenberg Bible (Score:5, Insightful)

      by kongjie ( 639414 ) <[moc.cam] [ta] [eijgnok]> on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @11:53PM (#6518634)
      Where did someone suggest that the digitized images were meant as a "study bible"? This is a museum piece, that's the whole point, but it's a museum piece with much greater access now.

      Even the average Latin student is not going to be able to read those digitized images or even the actual pages, given the typography.

      Cross-referencing does not have to be done in the margins of a book. Do you know how many in-depth studies of texts are done in rare book rooms? Without drawing on the books?

      If nothing else, making the GB more available will teach the average huckleberry that the bible wasn't written in english, lol.

      • For those interested in Gutenberg, Blake Morrison has written a great novel, The Justification of Johann Gutenberg, published by Chatto & Windus and available in paperback. The work is mostly fiction, as details of Gutenberg's life are limited mostly to scanty sources such as legal records. It's a great read, though.
    • Are you insane? This is probably one of the most valueable books in existance - there are only like 3 fully intact ones surviving.

      • Re:Write in the margins?! (Score:5, Informative)

        by tinrobot ( 314936 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:06AM (#6518694)
        Actually, 48 out of a print run of approximately 200, to be exact.

        Not a bad survival ratio, actually.
        • Still wrong. He said "fully intact", and there are only twenty-one complete copies in the entire world. From the site:

          "It is one of forty-eight surviving copies and one of twenty-one complete copies in the world."

      • According to the Ransom Center, only about 200 were produced and only 48 copies exist today

        The neat thing is that each copy is unique because each was illuminated by hand.

        The Texas Gutenberg was used in monasteries in southern Germany as late as the 1760s. It was marked up by monks who scratched out some passages and corrected others. Other markings indicate which sections were to be read aloud or reserved for church services.

        Heh, wouldn't want anyone to accidently read the parts that you're not supp

      • Re:Write in the margins?! (Score:5, Informative)

        by jmauro ( 32523 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:13AM (#6518727)
        There are only three copies in the United States. It's currently believed [gutenbergbible.net] that only 51 out of the original 200 copies still exist. The sad part about this story is that the British Museum has two complete copies and put them on the web [prodigi.bl.uk]almost 3 years ago. So UTexas posting them really adds nothing to the web, except provide another mirror.
      • Legend has it that Gutenberg had a "wonderful little proof" of God's existence, but didn't record it in any of his Bibles because the margins were just barely too small to contain it.

    • How could anyone say the above drivel is informative?

      For your information, the Guttenberg Bible is a masterpiece that helped usher in not only the renaissance but also the reformation. The GB and the printing press also aided civilization tremendously by helping spread knowledge throughout the globe in a quick and timely manner.

      Of course it is true that the Guttenberg Bible does not make a good study text; that goes without saying. For one thing, its in a museum and for another thing the photog

      • The GB and the printing press also aided civilization tremendously by helping spread knowledge throughout the globe in a quick and timely manner.

        Yes -- what's special is that it's one of the first printed books in Europe. The cultural impact on the free dissemination of information was much greater than that of the Internet. (Yes, books were still expensive, but much more numerous and affordable than hand scribed ones.)

        the photographs provided by the HRC are not detailed enough to make out the text clea

    • Re:Christianity and the Gutenberg Bible (Score:5, Informative)

      by JeanPaulBob ( 585149 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:01AM (#6518669)
      Don't forget the New American Standard translation, the other major English translation.

      Be careful with the NIV, though. It's quite a good translation, but you have to be aware of what you're getting when you read it. The translators used the "dynamic equivalence" philosophy, to make it easier to read. That means they took the more difficult sentences and rephrased them, changing both grammar and vocabulary to a more straight-forward reading level. (Every translation involves interpretation, but dynamic equivalence adds a second layer of "putting it in your own words.")

      Here's some good resources:

      Unbound Biola [biola.edu] -- Bible search. Most of the major English translations, along with 30 or 40 other languages, ancient and modern.

      Read the Bible [bible.com] -- 50 or 60 translations, English and otherwise. Some are available for download, as are the necessary fonts.

      • NET Bible (Score:5, Informative)

        by Micah ( 278 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @01:19AM (#6518982) Homepage Journal
        Don't forget the New American Standard translation, the other major English translation.

        I've recently become pretty keen on the NET Bible [netbible.com]. It is a fairly new modern translation by a group of scolars, designed for free distribution on the Internet. (I'm still a bit disappointed with their "license", but it's better than most other modern translations. I think there needs to be a good readable modern translation that is as "free" as the KJV.)

        Anyway, the NET Bible contains over 50,000 translators notes, some of which are quite useful in determining what the original text likely means. Then there are historical notes and other study notes. Definitely recommended.

    • Re:Christianity and the Gutenberg Bible (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Skyshadow ( 508 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:01AM (#6518670) Homepage
      To begin with it's all in Latin.

      Personally, I think it was a mistake to translate the gospels from Aramaic, too.

      Realistically, this Bible is less useful for the study of modern theology than it is other things -- art, the history of print and bookbinding, the evolution of the scriptures, etc. I mean, look at the cover of the thing -- it's a stunning piece of work.

      If you are truly serious about studying the Bible as a living book, and not as a museum piece, then pick up a New King James or NIV version.

      IMO, the King James versions still suffer from their poisioned past. The NIV makes a good effort, but I disagree with some of the interpretations they make (although I do agree with the need to draw those interpretations).

      The key to really understanding the Bible is to understand its sources and inspiration, examining the roots of the mythology being presented and the way in which things would have been intended. This isn't easy to do, but IMO is worthy of at least ameature study.

    • Also...

      Finally....

      it's all in Latin.

      Unfortunately, I think the Latin part is a show-stopper here for amateurs interested in learning about the Bible's history and various versions.

      I welcome the digitization and fully agree with the parent post, but I think the Latin bit is, alas, asking too much of today's readers.

      Maybe there's a dual-text, original-plus-translation, annotated version available online. Now THAT would be supercool!

    • The NKJV and NIV are nice (I prefer the KJV for the fluidness of old english) but the Gutenberg has the historical value.

      Ester in the OT was the first to take the holy scriptures and put them on paper so that everyone could read them. Nothing was hidden. Everyone knew what the priests did. Everyone knew the temple. Everyone knew the ceremonies. There were no secrets. Nothing ever was really hidden from the people. But the fact it was now openly in writting instead of just oral tradition was an enorm

      • Re:An excellent excuse to learn latin (Score:5, Informative)

        by DarrylM ( 170047 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @01:32AM (#6519020) Homepage
        I agree that this digitization of the Gutenberg Bible is an interesting development for its historical significance and I'm glad that it's been done. However, I feel that I should address a few of the other things that you've mentioned. (Yes, I am a theology student.)

        Then the Catholic church came and decided to take the scriptures away from the people and to try to hide the ceremonies and teachings forcing people to just trust the words of the priests.

        Sorry, I don't want to get into a theological debate on this forum, but I respectfully disagree with this; after all, people within the Catholic Church helped establish the modern university and did a great deal to try to educate people.[1] The major problems of getting Scripture to the masses involved widespread illiteracy and the fact that, until the invention of the printing press, Bibles couldn't be easily copied and distributed. It wasn't some sort of high ranking conspiracy that kept Bibles away from the possession of the common people but rather, the issues were essentially of a practical nature.

        The history of the Church is very detailed and interesting. Getting into it from a more properly academic perspective would take a bit of time and it's waaaay past my bedtime already :-), but if you are interested in other views on these specific issues, I invite you to check out www.catholic.com [catholic.com] or books such as Frank Sheed's Theology for Beginners.

        And even today they try to hide the actions of their priests.

        That's an overgeneralization that does not apply in the vast majority of cases, but it does underly a very real and valid concern that people have. I'll quote one of Pope John Paul II's addresses at the World Youth Day in Toronto last year. I think he did a pretty good job of summing up the feelings of those of us within the Catholic Church regarding the tragedies that have come to light recently. (Of course, I'm mindful that mere words cannot erase the immense harm that's been done):
        "The harm done by some priests and religious to the young and vulnerable
        fills us all with a deep sense of sadness and shame. But think of the vast majority of dedicated and generous priests and religious whose only wish is to serve and do good!"
        (full text) [vatican.va]

        [1] Particularly, I have in mind the establishment of cathedral schools which helped address the problem of a mostly illiterate population. See Margaret Deansley: A History of the Medieval Church.

        • Re:An excellent excuse to learn latin (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Anonymous Coward
          That's an overgeneralization that does not apply in the vast majority of cases, but it does underly a very real and valid concern that people have.

          The numbers are much much higher. Check today's news stories. There are reports of 800, perhaps a thousand cases that the church knew about. As an organization, the Church learned of these problems, and never considered that pedophilia was a problem. If an equally large government or corporation had 800 to 1000 cases of child molestation in their ranks....

    • Mod parent overrated please! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by nacturation ( 646836 ) <nacturation@gmai l . c om> on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:15AM (#6518742) Journal
      ...but as a study Bible it falls quite short.

      Is this the beginning of your strawman argument? Nobody suggested it is a study bible. You threw that out there and you then proceed to back up your blatantly incorrect assertion.

      Also, it is simply not available to the general public.

      Again, it's not meant to be. Unless the public is clamoring for a latin text, what does it matter that it's only available to those with internet access? The images aren't large enough (even the enlarged ones) to really read comfortably even if you are fluent in latin.

      Finally, the Gutenberg Bible does not have an easily accessible concordance.

      You mean it has no concordance? Dude, this is of archeological signicance only. Nobody in their right mind would learn latin so that they could study this thing. I get the feeling by now that you're simply trolling, but seeing that you got a +5 Informative, I feel compelled to respond.

      the fact that Gutenberg Bible owners won't let you touch the things, much less write in the margins, means that you are pretty much hamstrung as far as study goes.

      Dude, I can write in the margins. My Jiffy marker shows up great on my monitor screen, and it's always there for me. And as for being hamstrung, does my lack of speaking Latin hamstring me too?

      If you are truly serious about studying the Bible as a living book, and not as a museum piece, then pick up a New King James or NIV version.

      On this point I have to agree. This is a museum piece and isn't great for studying. After all, looking up Psalm 137:9 in King James Version is much more eloquent:

      "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

      Gives it a nice Shakespearean quality I'd say. But if you're not into that, the NIV is a lot clearer:

      "Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

      Nothing quite says God Loves You like a little bit of infant seizing and rock dashing.
      • After all, looking up Psalm 137:9 in King James Version is much more eloquent:
        "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

        Let's see that with a little context:

        O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

        Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

        Babylon, hmmm... Iraq.

        I think this is the answer to somebody's sig that reads: Who would Jesus bomb?
        :-)

    • If you are truly serious about studying the Bible as a living book, and not as a museum piece, then pick up a New King James or NIV version. These are easily readable and accurately reflect centuries of scholarship.

      I see where you are coming from - but you have to keep in mind that the Bible was not written by white - english speaking men. True hermeneutical study of the Bible requires taking into account the historical/cultural context in which it was written. A Language embodies the culture from whic
    • NKJV? NIV?

      Those are (from my own view as a hobbyist translator) the positively WORST translations out there. The NRSV is much better as a translation, if you must have a modern English version, and if not, sure, anything is OK, but try reading a Geneva Bible [tripod.com], or better, William Tyndale (the "Matthews Bible").

      -uso.
    • To begin with it's all in Latin. Seeing as how Latin is not quite the popular language as it used to be, it is doubtful that a student would be understanding the nuances and meanings of the GB.

      Also, it is simply not available to the general public. While this digitization of it goes a long way to providing easier access to the book, it remains largely inaccessible to those who live in foreign countries without easy access to Internet (those who would probably best be served by having Bible access).

      I a

    • I personally prefer the Oxford KJV with apocrypha [amazon.com]. Beautiful language, with the apocrypha to bridge the gaps of language and cultural nuance.
    • I don't like to stoop to personal invective but you are an idiot.

      That's like saying that the Mona Lisa is a nice painting and all but as a substitute for a real woman it falls short.

      you dick

    • If Bible study is your aim, check out a freeware program called e-Sword [e-sword.net]. It has dozens of free, downloadable modules of Bible versions/languages (modern, classical, and ancient), lexicons/dictionaries, commentaries, classical theological literature, maps, art, and even devotionals. When you click on any verse or word, all your commentaries and dictionaries jump into action to show what info they've got pertaining to it. The KJV has integrated Strong's Concordance numbers that you can mouseover and get the i

  • Is Gutenberg that nice? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Creepy Crawler ( 680178 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @11:45PM (#6518602)
    Of what I heard, Gutenberg made the movable type so he could make books cheaper. But he also made the "Publishers' Guild" and wreaked what he could have made known to the public.

    He put back knowledge for 100 years by allowing of such a guild that muchg power.

    • > Of what I heard, Gutenberg made the movable type so he could make books cheaper. But he also made the "Publishers' Guild" and wreaked what he could have made known to the public. He put back knowledge for 100 years by allowing of such a guild that muchg power.

      Folklore also holds that he perfected his technology in order to be able to undercut the competition's prices for counterfiet "indulgences".

      (And you think today's IP is out of control... imagine being a middle-man able to levy a fee on sinnin

    • Gutenberg helped bring civilization out of the Dark Ages. How could you hold back a civilization that had no books at all (outside of monistaries that is). Gutenburg's innovation spurred the Reformation and brought academic study back to the common man. Guttenburg represents a defiant turning point in history,
  • Now I have a reason to take my comp to church!

    • Now I have a reason to take my comp to church!
      Or a reason not to go to church... no thanks, mom. I'm just going to sit here in front of my computer and read my, uh... "bible".

      -a

  • religion aside (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Dorothy 86 ( 677356 )
    ... Imagine the time spent on a project like this. By doing this, it opens wide the possibility for a younger generation (the "internet generation" as it were) to really consider going into history, anthropology and many other studies that could easily be drown out by this IT boom, which is going on now.

    Kudos to all involved in the project

  • Actually (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Raul654 ( 453029 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @11:47PM (#6518611) Homepage
    The Library of Congress (Jefferson Building, IIRC) has a copy [udel.edu] on display. (Yep, that's me). Closeup available here [udel.edu]

  • The Bible (Score:5, Funny)

    by yamcha666 ( 519244 ) on Wednesday July 23, 2003 @11:51PM (#6518625)

    freely available to anyone who would like to examine it.

    I already read it, what else you got?

  • Who said nothing good comes from Texas?

    Well.. one is more than zero, right? :)

    -molo
  • Excuse my ignorance, it is a wonderfully crafted document, but why go to all the trouble of digitizing a document that you can barely read the digital version of. It might just be my eyes, but its awufully hard to read the text even in latin!

    My 2c
    • It isn't just your eyes. I think it was meant for you to look on the beauty of it, not read it, unfortunately.

      I tried enlarging the image, but to no avail. However, I'm sure that larger resolution images exist; one of the photos of the person scanning it in has it projected up on the wall in a legible size.

      Maybe if you asked nicely...
  • Anyone can scan an entire book as a bunch of JPG's. Give me a .lit or ebook format and I'll be impressed!

  • Important copyright notice (Score:5, Funny)

    by Timesprout ( 579035 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:02AM (#6518677)
    And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to make illegal copies of my words and destroy my IP rights. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.

    Yours etc.

    Supreme non existent being
    • Yup. I happened to listen to Lawrence Lessig's keynote address entitled Free Culture [oreillynet.com] last night and the Gutenberg site reminded me of this excerpt:

      Here's my Adobe eBook Reader, right. Some of you have seen this before, I'm sure. Here's Middle March; this is a work in the public domain. Here are the "permissions" (a lawyer had something to do with this) that you can do with this work in the public domain: You are allowed to copy ten selections into the clipboard every ten days--like, who got these numbers

  • Movable Type??? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Eberlin ( 570874 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:03AM (#6518679) Homepage
    I knew it, God is a blogger!!!

    Wait, cowboyneal uses Movable Type. Hmmmmmm.

  • So much for a free press.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by molo ( 94384 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:06AM (#6518695) Journal
    Further reproduction of any of the Gutenberg Bible images without the written consent of the Ransom Center is prohibited.

    So much for a free press and research materials.. This is such a load of crap. The largest images publicly available are 835x600.

    Inquiries regarding the availability of higher-resolution digital images for research or publication should be directed to the Center's staff.

    All this from a public university. Your tax dollars at work!

    -molo
    • Concur. As if the CTEA and the corrupt Supreme Court that upheld it wasn't bad enough, now we've got the mavens of wealth and power hoarding an over-500 year old book, doling out low resolution images for the little taxpayers that fund the University of Texas, only so that their names might be glorified in the press.
    • Here's an email I just sent to the HRC:

      As a resident of Texas, I was proud to read about the efforts of the Gutenberg Online Exhibition at the UT Humanities Research Center from a major technology news site. I congratulate your efforts on digitizing some of the most influential works of Western civilization.
      However, I became sickened to see the notice "Further reproduction of any of the Gutenberg Bible images without the written consent of the Ransom Center is prohibited" on a work in the public domai

    • just ignore it (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Trepidity ( 597 ) <delirium-slashdotNO@SPAMhackish.org> on Thursday July 24, 2003 @03:35AM (#6519367)
      You can probably safely ignore it. If it's simply an accurate scan of the pages, then it is simply a reproduction of someone else's work (namely, Gutenberg's), not an independent creative work, and as such is only subject to Gutenberg's copyright, not an independent copyright. As the original copyright has obviously long expired, you can safely reproduce the work.

      A similar principle applies to ignoring claims of copyright on digitized paintings painted before 1923 -- if it's simply an accurate copy of the painting, only the original (expired) copyright is in effect.
  • THank goodness for years I have been relying on dilbert comics as a religious alternative ~

  • image size (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It is nice they put this thing online, but it is nothing else than a marketing gag for mmore funds or something.

    at the current size [utexas.edu] it is totally useless, you click on enlarge image - and you get an image at a size where it is barely readable. am i supposed to use a magnification glass on my screen or something? If you do it, do it right (read: at right size) or leave it.
  • Can I get one from Project Gutenburg?

    Goddamn their ASCII Text Files, what are they going to do to preserve really typseting / formating
  • Rather than use this as a bible reference, a better source is the Skeptic's Annotated Bible [skepticsan...dbible.com]. That'll give you the true dope on the [ahem] "Good" book.

    • Re:Much better Bible reference (Score:5, Informative)

      by Tyreth ( 523822 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @08:16AM (#6520396)
      Bad link :) I decided to test the website owner's willingness to remove entries, by picking one of his apparent 'contradictions' and see if he'd remove it. He didn't:

      http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/cain. html

      Anyone can see that there is no contradiction here. Here's what I wrote to him (excuse how it sounds a bit of a mouthful at the end):

      What would it take for you to remove apparent contradictions from your website? From my perusal of a fiew there is quite reasonable explanations that would make it necessary for you to remove, but I'm not sure you will.

      I'll give you a small example:

      http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/cain. html

      "A fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth."
      "And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived, ... and he builded a city."

      Quite simply a man can be a vagabond and a fugitive, yet still dwell with a whole family of people. In those times a man was his family, and no doubt his children were outcasts with him. We are not told, but it is easy to imagine that his city was under attack, regarded as being a place of outcasts, etc. It doesn't matter what happened, the point is the verse you claim as contradictory does not necessarily contradict - it only does on the assumption that him building this city meant he was accepted by the world, not rejected.

      And that is true of a number of your contradictions. They say things which are not explained in detail, but one of the possible scenarios could mean something contradictory, but doesn't necessarily.

      He responded:

      Thanks for your interest in the SAB and for your comment regarding Cain. And you may be right about it, too.

      Cain may have been a vagabond, wandering around with his family and then later building a city. Who knows? That's the problem with most contradictions -- it's usually possible to find a way out by proposing how-it-could-have-been scenarios.

      In my view, the contradictions (though many and real) are the least of the bible's problems. I recommend that you focus on this list, if you really are interested in defending the bible.

      You asked if I ever remove contradictions from the SAB. Well yes, I do. Whenever I am convinced that the verses in a contradiction are not contradictory, I remove the contradiction. I only want to include those that would appear contradictory to an objective non-believer. (The Cain contradiction would, in my opinion, fall into that category.)

      If he's not willing to change on the simple things, then I'm not going to spend my time pursuing his more important list. I needed to establish first that my time was going to be well spent (the list he referred to was http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cr_short.html)

      To me a contradiction is when two opposite, and irreconcilable things are said to be simultaneously true. Such as saying an object is only blue yet it is also only purple. Which is it? Blue or purple? In this Cain story, however, I gave a scenario under which both the statements were true. And that is not a contradiction no matter which way you look at it.

      As you can see, he responded politely, I have no bitter feelings. I'm posting this so that others realise that much of the information presented is not contradictory or a problem unless you only look at it from one of many angles.

  • Unfortunately, The University of Texas... (Score:3, Funny)

    by SnappingTurtle ( 688331 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:28AM (#6518788) Homepage
    ... is being sued by Johannes Gutenberg for copyright violations. It seems that, through intense lobbying, the Gutenberg Bible is still under copyright.

    In a related story, God is suing Johannes Gutenberg ...

  • In a move mirroring MIT and Boston University's refusal to the names of students accused of file swapping [slashdot.org], the University of Texas has declined to provide the RIAA with the staff list for its Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center. The RIAA is investigating the alleged copying and distribution of the Center's Gutenburg Bible over the Internet.

    UT claims that it performed the copying in good faith, assuming that the 15th century work had lapsed into the public domain. Counsel for the RIAA, however, claims

  • Obligatory old joke (Score:5, Funny)

    by Pseudonym ( 62607 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:34AM (#6518816)

    A man went to a rare book shop and noticed an old bible on display. He struck up a conversation with the book shop owner.

    "Yeah, actually, I had an old bible which I threw out last week. It was by someone called Guten... something."

    "Not Gutenberg, I hope?"

    "Yeah, that's the one."

    Upon seeing the look on the book shop owner's face, the man replied:

    "Ah, don't worry. It wasn't worth anything. Some guy called Martin had scribbled in it."

  • Better get them quick... The way the RIAA and our geniuses in Congress think you never can tell whether this might prompt them to extend copyright protection to 600 years!

    Oh, and you had better stash away all those other "unauthorized" copies you have too!

  • But.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:41AM (#6518849) Journal
    I don't like the ending in many of those Bible stories. Can I rewrite them? Goliath pummles David, The walls of Jerico stay up, the Tower of Babble works, Eve does the Wild Thing with a snake, and the Isrealites die at the edge of the sea after Moses gets Carple Tunnel trying to command it to part.

    Hey, the Mormons made their own Bible, why can't I? What does Joseph Smith have that I don't? (well, maybe a loyal following and charisma, but those are overrated. Aren't they?)
    • Hey, the Mormons made their own Bible, why can't I?

      Allow lots and lots of sex in yours, and you might just surpass the mormons... Charisma or no.
  • ...that SCO is not claiming any rights on that digital copy of the bible?

  • Looks like they missed a page. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Yaztromo ( 655250 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:44AM (#6518858) Homepage Journal

    Hmmm, it looks to me like they missed the page at the beginning that reads:

    To My Darling Candy.
    All characters in this book are ficticous, and any resemblence to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.

    Yaz.

    • And the last page:

      About the Author:
      Bob Patterson graduated summa cum laude from Babylon university, with a degree in accounting. He spent the first part of his professional life as a money changer at H.R. Ziggurat before being assaulted by a homeless religous zealot. Though the zealot was later killed by some Romans, Bob was depressed about how many followers these religious crazies can accumulate, and decided to spoof them in this clever send-up of what people will believe. While Bob doesn't expect anyone

  • Are those coffee stains? (Score:3, Funny)

    by release7 ( 545012 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @12:45AM (#6518865) Homepage Journal
    How many times have I told you kids? No coffee in the digitizing lab!
  • Well, looks like I won't have to snatch any more Bibles from hotel rooms.
  • this is the first copy of the Bible to use the word "sucker".

  • Guttenberg's Bible? (Score:3, Funny)

    by breon.halling ( 235909 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @01:03AM (#6518933)

    Bible, schmible! I much prefer Guttenberg's [imdb.com] movie [imdb.com].

  • two things (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sxpert ( 139117 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @01:19AM (#6518980)
    First, I'd like to know what the editors are doing, I had that story 8 hours before...
    * 2003-07-23 22:57:45 Gutemberg's bible digitized (yro,books) (rejected)
    of course, it got rejected without explanation...

    The second thing is that, as I said in that submission, something isn't right... If you read the pages where you can see one of the bible's page, you can read the following legalese.
    "Further reproduction of any of the Gutenberg Bible images without the written consent of the Ransom Center is prohibited.
    Inquiries regarding the availability of higher-resolution digital images for research or publication should be directed to the Center's staff."

    What does that mean, considering this book is old enough to belong to all of humanity, hence these images should be useable by any one for any purpose ?
  • I saw this and thought that a bible had been written by bloggers using MT [moveabletype.org]. Time for caffine I think

    Rus

  • British library put two copies on the web... (Score:5, Informative)

    by h4mmer5tein ( 589994 ) on Thursday July 24, 2003 @04:11AM (#6519450)
    a few years ago one paper, one vellum. Both copies are online in a readable form ( 1045 / 2048 ) and can be viewed side by side. See them here [prodigi.bl.uk] They actually constitute a usefull research tool in this form as all the text including margin notes is readable via the web, assuming you can read latin of course. It's always nice to see things like this being put up on the web for all to use, but the texas copy one is a little redundant in this instance.

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