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Television Media

HD DVD Coverage at CES 2004 219

Posted by CmdrTaco from the stuff-to-lust-after dept.
Anonymous Coward writes "It appears manufacturers such as Toshiba will soon be rolling out HD DVD players. The HD DVD format, as opposed to the Blu-Ray standard, involves minimal changes to the manufacturing plants that currently produce DVDs. This should allow for a smoother transition for consumers to adopt this new format. This article DVD vs HD-DVD summarizes the differences of the two formats and benefits of the latter."
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HD DVD Coverage at CES 2004 More

HD DVD Coverage at CES 2004

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  • Big challenges ahead for HD formats (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:11PM (#7990520)
    The challenge for both the HD-DVD and the Blu-Ray efforts is getting studio support. For PVRs (such as the first Blu-Ray devices), this isn't a big deal. If you want a pristine 1080i/720p movie, however, it'll have to come on prepackaged media. The main challenges that neither Blu-Ray nor HD-DVD solves: -- Security. Hollywood is much more concerned about HD-quality content because it's the best they've got. The traditional "trust us" or "magic encryption fairy dust" proposals won't cut it here. Like it or not, neither format can succeed without effective, renewable anti-piracy features. -- Replication costs are a challenge. This is one place where HD-DVD may have a small edge, though that's debatable. -- User interactivity & network support. DVD's menus are awfully limited -- something much more flexible is needed, but there isn't yet any agreement what this will be. Cost isn't such a big deal yet (anybody willing to spend $10K for a plasma screen will shell out another $1K for a player to take advantage of it), but eventually this has to be price-competitive with DVD.

    • Re:Big challenges ahead for HD formats (Score:5, Insightful)

      by cmdr_beeftaco ( 562067 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:35PM (#7990871)
      higher res is the ultimate anti-piracy measure. you keep boosting the resolution and there is incentive to buy not download. i would be much more likely to buy a pristine hd-dvd for 20 bucks than spend 4 days downloading it but that's just me.
      • Right, but downloading, say, 50 GB at, say 3 MB/s (reasonable rate for most people on campuses (campi?)) only takes 5 hours... sure, it's not quite streaming, but it takes half as long to watch as to download.
        • 1) You need a place to put it. DishNetwork's HD PVR with a 250GB drive claims 25 hours of HD which would get you space for MAYBE 12-15 movies (depending on how they're encoded) on such a hard drive - a far cry from the number one can store with DVD rips.

          1A) Most of the diehard movie downloaders archive their movies to CD or DVD. Considering that HD-DVD R/RW are even further down the road from read-only devices, people would have to span movies over multiple discs - a pretty big inconvenience, especiall

          • "1) You need a place to put it."

            So quickly people forget. When DVD movies came out one DVD would fill my entire hard drive. Now I could fit 100. These new HD-DVDs aren't even out yet and I could already fit 10. I have a feeling when we do see these drives we'll all have hard drives that easily fit 50 HD-DVDs, and a few years later, 100+.

            Course that's if we even see HD-DVD movies. DVD drives have just now been widely accepted now that players are down to $30. I highly doubt the average consumer's

    • As i highly doubt the next DVD standard will allow anything less than copy protected DVI (or any digital cable) with HDCP.

      The big push isn't just quality, its DRM and protection.

      With any luck the movie industry will not allow this technology to be licensed for PC's that don't support internal bus copy protection as well. (getting the infamous macrovision garbly goup on your screen).

      Get HDCP or your new digital set will be useless in the very near future!
      • The movie industry should just give up... they're not going to stop hackers from getting the raw video stream. I like reverse engineering things just for fun. You tell me I can't do something, I want to prove I can. It's not about saving $20 (although for some people it is; I haven't seen a movie I've liked for quite a while [Office Space]).

        Basically unless you embed a decryption chip in my optic nerve, you can't stop someone from copying video. Even then, someone could guess/extract your encryption ke

    • Nuff said. It's unfair to go and pay $25-45 for a movie and then have them under the assumption I will want it encrypted for any particular reason.

      Any scheme which goes into place will either have to be documented or hacked in order to get play on Linux, and as with every other scheme, eventually this does happen.

      Also I hope they demolish region locking for good with this new standard. Our government has already declared it anti-competitive so let's just hope we don't have to deal with it. :-/

    • Now that we we have MPEG 4, maybe HD DVD should be based off of it. MPEG4's file format is based off of QuickTime's. QuickTime's file format is awesome and provides for a lot of interactivity. Although, to use some of it you have to have various plug-ins, but I imagine they could determine a DVD Core of media support similar to how there is the Core Java classes.
    • Huh? Since when does a HDTV cost $10k? You can get them now for $1000. Welcome to 2004.


  • What they don't say (Score:5, Funny)

    by Pivot ( 4465 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:11PM (#7990535)
    - is that is mostly an excuse to introduce a new CSS system since the old one is cracked..
    • No problem, the new one will be cracked too.

    • Re:What they don't say (Score:5, Informative)

      by John Whitley ( 6067 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:33PM (#7990851) Homepage
      [HD-DVD] is mostly an excuse to introduce a new CSS system since the old one is cracked..

      I disagree. The big CE companies are all vying for marketshare in the forthcoming HDTV space. This includes the entire signal chain, of which DVDs are just a part. The old DVD format doesn't support HDTV resolutions, so it had to go eventually. With CSS having been 0wn3ed, of course it'll be replaced. Even if only to refresh the associated patents.

      Moreover, despite DeCSS, I believe that CSS has been a big success for the DVD Copy Control Association. The cracking of CSS has had little effect on real-world products or markets. Has there been an explosion of mass market DeCSS-based region-free DVD players? Nope. Has DeCSS done _anything_ measurable to reduce the ability of the DVD Copy Control Association (and its supporting industries) to write global trade laws (re: region coding) into firmware? Not that I can discern. CSS is certainly a perceived threat, but that's a forward-looking concern that worries about the coming of a video P2P phenomenon like the music industry has witnessed.
      • CSS won't do anything to stop video P2P. People are swapping re-encoded versions of movies (usually encoded with DivX). Even if we start to see full DVD images (like CDROM ISOs for warez) being shared, the CSS encoding won't stop people from burning the image to a DVD and enjoying it in their mass-marketed Toshiba player.

        CSS is about controlling the player, as you noted yourself.

      • Re:What they don't say (Score:2, Informative)

        by cfuse ( 657523 )
        Has there been an explosion of mass market DeCSS-based region-free DVD players?

        If (like myself) you are in Australia, then the answer to this question is yes.

        Brand name DVD players are the only ones sold with regions enabled, and the normal procedure is to ask the salesperson how to turn it off when you buy it. Buy a cheap and cheerful, and expect it to be region free out of the box.

        Thank god for the ACCC.

  • Oh great! (Score:3, Funny)

    by molafson ( 716807 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:12PM (#7990545)
    Oh great, another standards war. That always works well for us users.

  • Rewritable capacity (Score:4, Interesting)

    by LordK2002 ( 672528 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:15PM (#7990588)
    The rewritable version has a higher capacity than the read-only type, according to that table.

    Is that a misprint? Surely the manufactured disks cannot be smaller than the rewritable disks - otherwise what is the point in using the read-only version at all?

    K

  • "Rewritable" (Score:2, Interesting)

    by sik0fewl ( 561285 )

    In the article it says "rewritable" has a capacities of 32gb and 20gb (single and dual layer). This obviously isn't the same as RW (cd burning), is it? What is this, and why is it more than read only?

  • what-is description of the blu-ray standard (Score:3, Informative)

    by UrgleHoth ( 50415 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:16PM (#7990609) Homepage
    Blu-Ray [techtarget.com]

    and it seems that HP and Dell support Blu-Ray [cd-rw.org] for what its worth

  • Good news - Been fighting for it! (Score:5, Informative)

    by cybrthng ( 22291 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:16PM (#7990610) Homepage Journal
    I've been pushing for a single - easy and affordable HD format because i find D-VHS to be annoying and costly. I'm simply not fond of moving back to cassette tapes either.

    Keep on pushing your support for Single format DVD because we won the war in the beginning and shouldn't give up now!

    You should also stand up and watch out for DVI/HDCP and SDI inputs. Make sure you retain rights to the media and don't let publishers enforce encryption on everything or else 99% of the sets sold today compatible of HDTV will become useless.

    With this DVD format becoming "standard" don't let them throw us off with some off the wall copyprotection and drm stuff!!!

    You can find my info at:
    DVDsite.org [dvdsite.org]
    as well as my sig below

    • Even if HD DVD is "official", it will have to compete with WMV HD (coming in July) and maybe Blu-ray.
      • True, windows media "hd" has been around for a little bit with some releases - including T2 and such but it hasn't really taken off for reasons you can find on many popular forums.

        Just as long as a good format comes out that everyone can agree on and we don't have a BetaMax vs VHS and 1/3rd of the sold products ending up junk i will be happy.

        Now is the time to achieve a standard and give people and affordable and usefull upgrade.

        I'm still suprised there was even an effort for D-VHS in the first place!
        • The market for D-VHS is that the technology was there to record HDTV off the airwaves before any of this HD DVD or Blu Ray DVD stuff was available.

          Well, that, and the Laserdisk audience...

          However, it looks like VHS in general is going to go, including D-VHS. HD camcorders look to be going towards DV-like formats and VHS seems to have been replaced by the PVR.
      • Has anyone developed a low cost decoder for WMV HD? The 720p content requires a P4 2.4 to work smoothly. That is a bit much for a DVD player.

    • Re:Good news - Been fighting for it! (Score:4, Informative)

      by ratboy666 ( 104074 ) <fred_weigel@hotmail. c o m> on Thursday January 15, 2004 @05:51PM (#7991844) Journal
      All new gear that present recordable signals in HD will come with "Constrainded Image" (Open Cable Licensing Agreement). All non-HDCP encrypted video shall be reduced to 520,000 pixels.

      The good stuff will come out of the DV output plug, encrypted, of course. If you use component video, you get the constrained signal (unless the HD decode is built into your set).

      If you go component video, you end up with 960x540 effective, if you use an external HD decoder.

      If someone knows of an HD decoder that doesn't have this "feature", let me know...

      Ratboy

  • Great, another version to buy (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:18PM (#7990631)
    You know, if the media industry wants us to take their copyright claims seriously, then they need to start giving us some sort of discount as they re-release the same material on new formats. If I've got a license to view/hear it, then that should carry over, and I should only have to pay a small fee to upgrade.

    • Re:Great, another version to buy (Score:4, Funny)

      by kabocox ( 199019 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:36PM (#7990892)
      You know, if the media industry wants us to take their copyright claims seriously, then they need to start giving us some sort of discount as they re-release the same material on new formats. If I've got a license to view/hear it, then that should carry over, and I should only have to pay a small fee to upgrade.

      Your small upgrade fee is either $15 or $20.
    • If I've got a license to view/hear it, then that should carry over, and I should only have to pay a small fee to upgrade.

      I don't think buying a dvd constitutes a licence to view or hear it on any other medium. I am no expert on copyright law tho.
    • when Who Framed Roger Rabbit? was released on DVD, they had a mail in rebate with POP of the VHS or Beta release (i'm happy to say i have all 3!)

      it was only something like $5 but it was something.

    • Long live the small mom-and-pop business. Animeigo [animeigo.com], a US anime company, does things like this. They allowed people to trade in their laserdiscs of an anime series called "Kimagure Orange Road" for DVD sets. They still had to pay money, but it was a nice gesture to recoup some trade-in value.

      Of course, they now seem to be selling used LD sets on their website... :)

  • More Formats... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Mz6 ( 741941 )
    These format wars always turn out to be pissing matches between rival companies and never benefits the end user. All it does is hassle consumers by having to purchase compatible equipment.. again!

  • So how HD is HD-DVD? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by sjonke ( 457707 ) * on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:19PM (#7990647) Journal
    No where in the article does it say anything about the video quality, only how much data can be stored on the disks. Is this really going to be HDTV resolution (1080i or 720p or ...?) or something else? Will it look better on standard TVs too, or must one have an HDTV to see a benefit?
  • I can't wait for this technology to appear in computers. HD DVD-RW will be great for backing up large IDE disks. The only thing that sucks is the 36.55 Mbps data rate. I guess I'll have to wait for 2X or 4X versions of the drive.

  • This should allow for a smoother transition for... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Godeke ( 32895 ) * on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:20PM (#7990668)
    This should allow for a smoother transition for consumers to adopt this new format.

    For who? Why do I care what happens at the factory. What it *does* mean is that the product can be scaled up for large production quicker, which should hopefully mean lower prices sooner. However, it means *nothing* as far as my transition... I won't know what the next generation DVD is like to transition to until I see how well companies handle backwards compatibility. If it fails to run *any* DVD collection, I will consider it a failure, because all the factory efficiency in the world won't make me toss my existing DVD collections.
    • Uhm, you have it backwards. The new DVD player would be capable of supporting your current DVD collection and supporting the Hi-def format to boot.

      It would be a waiste of space to try and achieve both on a single disk as you would be taking away from the much needed storage capacity for hi bit rate audio and video formats that HDTV signals are.

      You won't loose rights or functionality of your current collection.

      Heck, Samsung and V Inc Bravo DVD players can already output 720p video of current dvd's so just
      • That's the theory anyway. However, since DVD menus on some of my early DVDs are glitchy on current *regular* DVD player, I worry about these new players. Not being a video/audiophile, I don't really care what the new format will allow so much as that it will be software compatible with my existing DVDs. My VHS collection doesn't collect that much dust (my boy still likes Godzilla movies, and how much resolution do you really need to watch Tokyo gets leveled again?), but you have already seen the major store
        • True, you never really have no purpose to stop watching what you already have, but part of the spec would be to support your existing dvd collection and the new stuff.

          New dvd players are already scaling, processing and upconvering DVD to 720p or similar displays and they're getting pretty common in the market. (and only 200 bucks to boot).

          Just like with any technology as soon as you buy it, its obsolete in some respects :)

      • It would be a waiste of space to try and achieve both on a single disk as you would be taking away from the much needed storage capacity for hi bit rate audio and video formats that HDTV signals are.

        Well, if you re-read the parent, I think you'll see that that was exactly what he said ("If it fails to run *any* DVD collection, I will consider it a failure, because all the factory efficiency in the world won't make me toss my existing DVD collections.").

        However, the flip side should also be true. I should

  • Blue lasers all around? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by PCM2 ( 4486 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:21PM (#7990671) Homepage
    What's interesting to me is thatboth the standards being talked about here seem to use blue lasers to pack more data onto the disc. Not too long ago, the competition vs. the Blu-ray group seemed to focus on sticking with traditional red lasers and just using more aggressive compression (e.g. MPEG-4). I'm glad to see that idea is going away. I still have a lot of early-generation DVDs where the compression artifacts are very noticeable. I'd hate to see that go back to being the norm.

  • great... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:22PM (#7990703)
    Next time i go to buy a burner il be asking for a CD-ROM,CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-ROM, DVD+R DVD+RW DVD-R DVD-RW HDDVD-ROM, HDDVD-R, HDDVD-RW, BluRay-ROM, BluRay-R, BluRay-RW Drive....

    i guess that would be a 52x52x24x16x8x4x8x4x1x1x1x1 Drve...

    • And then... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:48PM (#7991051) Homepage
      ...you'll come home, realize it doesn't play DVD-RAM, and go to have it replaced, right?
    • As long as it plays LPs. Even just singles, which I guess is all that would fit in the tray.

      Does anyone else miss 8" disks?

      I want an old-style 11-platter (20 surface) 8" hard disk built with today's technology. I don't care if it's only 1350 rpm... just give me my 10TB disk!
  • ... I'll now have 3 different versions of LOTR.

  • Sometimes progress is bad (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Serapth ( 643581 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:26PM (#7990747)
    Im not really sure how to look at DVD in general. I have one, and dont get me wrong, the concept of ever renting another VHS tape sends chills down my back. Ditto for at work... MSDN on DVD is about 5 times nicer then on CD, there is no doubt that it is such a marked improvement over CD.

    Thing is, with every new format, you need to have a certain element of buy in. DVD is just now getting there, IMHO... if you go to rent a new release at blockbuster there will most likely be more DVD's then VHS tapes. Ditto for if you go to buy a new computer... i would say 90% of all new systems ship with a DVD player standard... half of those most likely are burners.

    But I wonder, with new developments, such as HD DVD on the horizon, how many people are going to hold of purchasing a DVD or DVD burner now... when something is going to obsolete it a short while into the future. Is technology on the horizon bad for the technology that exists today?

    DVD adoption still isnt as complete as it should be... for instance

    How much software do you buy on DVD's these days? I wish it was alot more, but CD's still rule the day in shrinkwraped software, especially games. With games like Neverwinter nights spanning multiple CD's, your either stuck dedicating a wack of your HD to playing it... or your back in the Apple ii days of disk swapping.
    What about audio dvd's? A recent trip to HMV showed that there was perhaps a hundred available for purchase at retail... not to mention that cars dont have dvd players... you arent seeing portable dvd discmen...

    I guess all Im wondering is... Are these companies sorta shooting themselves in the foot by constantly bringing out new versions? Should storage media follow a more console like approach to release schedules to acheive better market penetration. I mean, how many people would have bought a DVD player ( or plasma tv, or flat panel monitor ) etc... if it didnt constantly feel like there was something better around the corner... and in the case of dvd's, that your investment could almost instantly become obsoleted?

    As an asside... I think DVD's have already done a pretty big mess of things. Ive recently shopped for a DVD burner to replace my CD player, and I was aghast to find out how many formats already exists... DVDR DVD +R DVD+RW DVD-R DVD-RW?!??! Wow...
    • But I wonder, with new developments, such as HD DVD on the horizon, how many people are going to hold of purchasing a DVD or DVD burner now

      Regular DVD players are so cheap now that they are effectively disposable, so the prospect of a new (and initially costly) technology around the corner probably has little effect on current sales. On the other hand, I'm avoiding the new DVD video burners. They are still way too expensive, given that they will shortly be obsolete. Of course, if they drop under $100, and

  • This can mean only one thing... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Torgo's Pizza ( 547926 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:26PM (#7990750) Homepage Journal
    AP - SKYWALKER RANCH, Calif.: Thanks to new DVD technology, George Lucas is hurriedly working on a new Special Director's Expanded Edition of the Star Wars saga which features 23 seconds of new footage. Lucas was quoted as saying, "The new HD-DVD format will allow me to present Star Wars as it was always meant to be seen. This now allows us to see the Midichlorians in full detail."

  • I want this not Blu-Ray! (Score:4, Informative)

    by wyluli ( 537677 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:26PM (#7990759)
    HD-DVD is the format the DVD Forum [dvdforum.com] voted on yet BluRay DVD makes it on the shelves and in our new computers (thanks HP & Dell) because there are more companies backing it, like DVD+R. If you'll note on the front page of the DVD Forum's website:


    Please note that the "+RW" format, also known as DVD+RW was neither developed nor approved by the DVD Forum. The approved recordable formats are DVD-R, DVD-RW and DVD-RAM.


    Same is going to be said about BR-DVD here soon...

    HD-DVD = Backwards compatable with current DVD's

    BR-DVD = NOT backwards compatable with ANYTHING! (now that Sony's made money getting a DVD player in almost every home in the world, now they go with ANOTHER format that you'll need to go out and buy a NEW DVD Player that reads BR-DVD)

    You may remember this topic from a while back. [slashdot.org]

    YMMV

    • HD-DVD = Backwards compatable with current DVD's

      BR-DVD = NOT backwards compatable with ANYTHING! (now that Sony's made money getting a DVD player in almost every home in the world, now they go with ANOTHER format that you'll need to go out and buy a NEW DVD Player that reads BR-DVD)

      Errrrr... huh?

      How is HD-DVD "backward compatible"? You're not going to be able to read your HD-DVDs in your current DVD player.

      On the other hand, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players will appear that can support earlier gene [hddvd.org]

    • BR-DVD = NOT backwards compatable with ANYTHING!

      It's a safe bet that any consumer next-generation DVD product will read older DVDs, even if they have to include a separate laser for that purpose. And with DVD players so cheap, they could probably do so at little extra cost.
    • BR-ROM (the format for prepackaged media) is the same size and thickness as HD-DVD. Both groups have stated that it is possible to build players that can read DVD/CDs with the inclusion of a red laser.

      BR-R/RW (the format you can burn) on the other hand is packaged in a cartridge because the media is too easily scratched and dusty. They are trying to resolve that issue however. Worst case scenario is you have to place your BR-ROM inside of a cartriage to use it in computers that want to burn BR for a whlie.
  • This should allow for a smoother transition for consumers to adopt this new format.

    I fail to see how them wanting us to buy yet another box can equal a 'smoother transition'.
  • For an alternate view of the format war, checkout the coverage on The Digital Bits [thedigitalbits.com].

    -- Brooks
  • Now I have to buy the White album again!
  • what the article doesn't say:
    format? - 1080i, 720 p ... which one?
    outputs? component video? firewire? DVI?
    disc life? backwards compatibility? approximate price? when will hd dvd discs be sold, and what studios will re-release?

    I can't wait to have my entire collection of DVDs in HD

  • Question... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Beolach ( 518512 )
    The article states "Total compatibility with present DVD (same disc structure: back-to-back bonding of two 0.6mm substrates)".

    Does this mean we'll be able to play HD-DVDs in current (non-HD) DVD players? That's how I would interpret "Total compatibility," but I don't think it would work that way. Obviously HD-DVD players will be able to play non-HD DVDs, but IMO that's not Total compatibility.
    • Does this mean we'll be able to play HD-DVDs in current (non-HD) DVD players?

      No, there's absolutely no chance that anybody will come up with a HD-DVD format that plays in current players. So when anybody talks about compatibility with present DVD, they are talking about present DVD disks.
  • A lot of people using "average" televisions in the 20-to-27-inch range can't tell the difference between VCRs and DVDs when it comes to quality. I don't doubt that people with $8,000 plasma HDTV's will be creaming their pants over this new format, but I highly doubt that Joe Sixpack (who finally got a DVD player for Christmas) with a 25" screen will care. HD-DVD's will have to offer more than video quality compared to DVD's in order to make most consumers care.

    And don't tell me that the picture quality
    • You are correct: nobody was really screaming for a new television standard. This is being imposed by the government much more as a matter of managing over-the-air bandwidth than because somebody thought that Survivor 3 just didn't look sharp enough. The higher resolution is just the carrot.

      I think that the first thing they'll notice is with widescreen movies. On a standard television you're looking at perhaps 250 scan lines. They actually look pretty terrible, even on a 27" TV screen; there just aren't
    • No No No

      Joe Sixpack HATES DVDs. He can barely watch a movie on dvd 'cause they don't work on his TV. He has no idea why he can't watch the movei witout those black bars. He paid a lot of money for that new 50" big screen, and the DVD version of Freddy vs Jason only takes up half the screen. Either that or everybody is tall and thin. DVD just doesn't work.

      VHS - now that's the format of the masses. Be Kind, Rewind. Fills the whole screen - no messin' with those "full" "stretch" "zoom" options three layers

    • Re:Will anybody care, quality-wise? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by NerdSlayer ( 300907 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @05:09PM (#7991376) Homepage
      A lot of people using "average" televisions in the 20-to-27-inch range can't tell the difference between VCRs and DVDs when it comes to quality.

      No way. Do a back to back comparison some time. I can easily tell the different on a 19 inch tv.

      but I highly doubt that Joe Sixpack (who finally got a DVD player for Christmas) with a 25" screen will care.

      Huh? Do you live in an old folks home? Over 50 [findarticles.com] million households now own a DVD player. 50 million! Joe sixpack bought his two years ago.

      What's holding people back? The shipping costs on a $44 [amazon.com] DVD player?

      Best Buy is selling HD-ready TV's for $500. They're selling 50" widescreens for just over $1000.

      Like it or not, this stuff is totally mainstream at this point. People aren't throwing their current TV's into the trash, but the emphasis has clearly shifted to DVDs and all the stores are trying to sell HDTV stuff.

      Go to a Best Buy and look at how many rear projection TV's the sell that AREN'T widescreen. Last time I was there it was about 2... two models for the entire store.
    • A lot of people using "average" televisions in the 20-to-27-inch range can't tell the difference between VCRs and DVDs when it comes to quality.

      If that were true, DVDs would not have taken over so rapidly. In fact, everybody I know who had a 20-27" TV has exclaimed over the improved quality when they went to DVD.
  • ...why? Better compression tech. Bought disc are one thing - but they're likely to play off either player. But from what I've understood Blue-Ray is still MPEG2 = same as DVD.

    But with HD-DVD, combined with your own DVD burner, you can burn HQ vids (SVCD is ok, but not great compared to other formats) to play on your mainstream players. There are a few DivX player, but they're overpriced and not standard.

    Standard player, works with every encoding (no more of the funny only DivX version X, no GMC, not too h
  • We are now seeing evidence of technological development moving so fast that there is not time for a standard to naturally evolve.

    What does this mean for the market? - it means consumers are going to have to commit to an unproven technology. Consumers are naturally unwilling to do this so they will stick with older technologies, waiting for a standard to evolve. Go back to first statement.

    A vicious circle.

  • Smoother transition? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Vincman ( 584156 ) <vincent.vanwylic ... m ['l.c' in gap]> on Thursday January 15, 2004 @04:44PM (#7991000) Homepage
    The HD DVD format, as opposed to the Blu-Ray standard, involves minimal changes to the manufacturing plants that currently produce DVDs. This should allow for a smoother transition for consumers to adopt this new format.

    I don't see how making it easier for manufacturers to change their product will make it easier for consumers to switch over?
    Is that another one of those 1 + ? = profit jokes?
    • Consumers follow the content. During the earliest days of DVD, very few people cared because they either couldn't get their favorite movie on DVD or would have to wait two months [or much longer] after the VHS release to buy or rent it. As more and more movies were released on DVD, more and more people bought DVD players. Blockbuster, Hollywood Video, et. al. dragged their feet too, until there was enough content to fill their shelves.

      So, if the manufacturers can easily switch to HD-DVD or (more likely

  • I don't like the sound of key revocation. Sounds like you don't buy movies you lease them. http://www.dvdinfoworld.com/modules.php?op=modloa d &name=News&file=article&sid=594 Unlike current DVD technology, the BD-ROM format uses a much stronger encryption algorithm based on 128-bit AES. It features system renewability for key revocation, and incorporates a physical technology for preventing so-called ?bit-by-bit? copying to recordable media. Under this scheme, content providers will physically
  • The most promising thing to me is the data rate. 36.55 Mbps is about twice what the broadcast HDTV standard MAX is. (Most local stations won't run at full bandwidth at that) It's good to know that you could have a really high quality image on there.
  • I personally would be happy if they could just make a dvd that was more durable. I have had more problems with dvds than I ever did with VHS. I've had skips, freezes, audio and video getting out of sync, etc... I would prefer a system that was the current resolution, but included redundant data and good error correcting and maybe a permanent protective case. Something that would survive a small child would be ideal. VHSs are far superior to DVDs when it comes to durability.
  • Here's another comparison of the next-gen DVD formats [hddvd.org]. I find it rather balanced.
  • Analogue mobile phones > Digital mobile phones > 3G

    Cassette tape > CD > SACD

    Video tape > DVD > HD-DVD

    History tends to show that trying to replace a 'good enough' technology with one that has no significant advantages is prone to remaindered stock. Sure, one day I'm sure 3G might take off - but it will be very slow and very patchy. The initial switch to digital delivers benefits. Better resolution is not enough to make the second generation digital technologies grab the public interes

    • That pretty much agrees with what I've personally seen.

      CD - I have no idea what they're going to manage to replace this with... it's in everything (cars, boomboxes, PCs, etc.). The audio quality is "good enough" for 99% of the public, the interface is simple, it's compatible with everything (except for the recent attempts at DRM). That makes for a darn high hurdle that any new format would have to compete against. Possibly, if they could replace it with something recordable (cassettes vs LPs, DRM will
    • I disagree with you overall (because HD formats, 720p and 1080i, are HUGE upgrades over 480i/NTSC), but I had to pick this out for special consideration:

      Now, if they attempt to reimplement region coding, CSS, and other DRM technologies in HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, as we can expect them to, its reasonable to assume that it will NEVER take off, resolution or not. The advantage in moving is just too small.

      Most people don't give a rat's hind-quarters about whether or not a DVD has copy protection, and the same wi

  • Excuse me if this has been mentioned... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cens0r ( 655208 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @07:05PM (#7992622) Homepage
    ...but the digital bits acutally reported on this and seemed to imply that Blu-Ray has at this point more momentum behind it, and possibly may be the better format. From what I've read of the two formats blu-ray does look a little better.

  • Let's hope the new players have better interface (Score:3, Interesting)

    by indros13 ( 531405 ) * on Thursday January 15, 2004 @07:13PM (#7992712) Homepage Journal
    If there's one thing newer DVD players need to do, it's to stop the ridiculous lockout of user interface. I can understand making me watch the FBI warning (sort of), but at least my VCR could fast forward. Come on!

  • NO disk protection! what are they thinking?!? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Neuticle ( 255200 ) on Thursday January 15, 2004 @08:55PM (#7993677) Homepage
    I would have hoped by now that we had moved past the obsession with "oooh shiny disk" and come to realize that even though a caddy adds bulk, protecting the disk is damn important. As data density goes up, scratches become more and more detrimental

    With CDs, It was understandable. The tech was new, and caddies were an additional cost on top of that newness. Plus, the "shiny disk" was a novelty. -Scratches were not that much of a problem, the music would hiccup, but rarely skip badly unless the scratch was bad.

    We should have learned our lesson with DVDs. "shiny disks" were no longer so novel, and a minor scratch can send the movie wildly skipping. This is made worse by the fact that movies are singular entities, not broken up in to songs like on a CD, so restarting where you left of is more annoying. Renting DVDs is hell because one goober can fuxxor the disk.
    - We ship/sell DVDs in cases anyhow, why the hell didn't we make the case the caddy?

    Now we want to up the density even more, and still leave the data surface exposed?? Now will a fingerprint cause a skip? Will a scratch render a whole min. or more unviewable by obscuring the data? This is un-freaking acceptable. I treat all my disks with extreem care, but It seems these would need clean rooms and machine loading to avoid any scratches.

    Screw HD-DVD, Blu-Ray has a caddy (IIRC) to protect my investment in a HD movie. I'll go with it, even if it costs more, because loosing a $25 movie to one scratch is more expensive in the long run by far, and not having to treat the disk like a fabrege(sp?) egg to keep it playing well is worth the extra cost.

  • Hooray! (Score:3, Funny)

    by adeyadey ( 678765 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @01:55AM (#7995748) Journal
    I will only need 20 HD-DVD-R's to back up my 300 gig HD.. Oh joy..

  • blu-ray is preferable (Score:3, Insightful)

    by forgoil ( 104808 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @02:15AM (#7995816) Homepage
    Putting HD content on todays DVDs means that the masterings will go lower bandwidth or have to break the movies onto two discs.

    Going with a format which can store more is preferable in every possible way. And since DVD players are cheap as hell today, a new machine shouldn't be much of a problem either.

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