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United States Software Linux

Open Source in Government: Newport News, Va. 140

Posted by michael from the inch-by-inch dept.
Sam Hiser writes "Open source in government is getting real. Tom Adelstein, in this penetrating interview with Andy Stein, the CIO of Newport News, Virginia, gets to the heart of why the opportunity to build collaborative software pulled the former chief IT architect of Capital One into the public sector. Police, fire and EMT early responders -- and the IT systems that support them - are under Sisyphean pressure to perform, while budgets are sagging. Something's gotta give, and it's going to be the aging software infrastructure in our towns and cities. Are Open Source platforms the only economically viable alternative? Maybe not, but collaboration will have to occur if we want to build the systems to save our lives."
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Open Source in Government: Newport News, Va. More

Open Source in Government: Newport News, Va.

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  • Health care as well (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BWJones ( 18351 ) * on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:04PM (#8003350) Homepage Journal
    Are Open Source platforms the only economically viable alternative? Maybe not, but collaboration will have to occur if we want to build the systems to save our lives."

    And while we are at it.....in addition to city management and taxation for those issues, if we want to reduce the cost of medicine, an open source alternative to the current software with open standards is the way to go for medical health care, health insurance and billing. How much of our current medical system is devoted to billing, reimbursement and trying to transfer and manage data? It's a lot.

    A standard open source health care database and form that is managed by the federal government that can be accessed by hospitals, insurance companies, states and individuals is the way through the nightmare that has become managed care. It could even tie into other open source government databases discussed in this article to improve the documentation of medical emergencies which may result in a further reduction of costs to governments and private citizens while also increasing the quality of care.

    • if I had any mod points i'd mod you up. with medical billing between insuracnce companies, doctors, the policy holder etc., it's costing consumers and the companies almost 10x the amount more than if the process were quicker and simpler to manage.

      i'm not saying there isn't complexity to the issue, but the unneccicary complex nature of things in that industry is a crux.
      • The biggest complexity is the million jobs that exist because of the fragmented structure of medical care providers. Unfortunately, the corporate form has proven that all corporate formations are not for the benefit of large numbers. Just the opposite, a few will profit, many will work under them, and many are left uncovered- very sad! I agree that if there is a national interest to violate copyright,patent and tm, it would be in the interest of establishing better medical care. Would open source achiev

    • Re:Health care as well (Score:5, Interesting)

      by LostCluster ( 625375 ) * on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:20PM (#8003487)
      The irony is, most health insurance-issuing companies are non-profits because for-profits cannot possibly make a profit when there are non-profits providing the same service and health insurance is something good for society to have in existance.

      It's true that there are many medical processes and office visits that cost more to file the surrounding paperwork than to provide the actual service, and that has to be reflected in the pricing of the services.

      If even the existing medical-records systems could be ported to Linux, that'd eliminate $200 from the cost of each computer in the doctor's office, and that'd be a savings that'd add up over time... and just think what'd happen if the interchange between care providers and insurance companies happened over open source protocols...

      • Re:Health care as well (Score:5, Insightful)

        by BWJones ( 18351 ) * on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:30PM (#8003560) Homepage Journal
        The irony is, most health insurance-issuing companies are non-profits because for-profits cannot possibly make a profit when there are non-profits providing the same service and health insurance is something good for society to have in existance.

        Ask yourself just what non-profit means though. All it is in reality is a tax classification. For instance, the largest HMO in our area is classified as non-profit, but the principals of that organization have S-class Benz's as company cars and make high six figure salaries. Non-profit does not mean lower costs of healthcare.

        If even the existing medical-records systems could be ported to Linux, that'd eliminate $200 from the cost of each computer in the doctor's office, and that'd be a savings that'd add up over time... and just think what'd happen if the interchange between care providers and insurance companies happened over open source protocols...

        Open source does not necessarily mean Linux. But don't sweat it because Microsoft cannot seem to get their head around this either. I am really referring to an open source infrastructure that can be plugged into regardless of platform. The infrastructure can still be a profit making center for specific companies, but the idea is that it provides a mechanism for efficient distribution of information in a clean, secure manner that reduces the cost for government and healthcare for all participants.

        • Ask yourself just what non-profit means though. All it is in reality is a tax classification. For instance, the largest HMO in our area is classified as non-profit, but the principals of that organization have S-class Benz's as company cars and make high six figure salaries. Non-profit does not mean lower costs of healthcare.

          Yes, but that HMO still feels the natural competitive pressure from other HMOs to ensure they keep costs as low as possible. That doesn't forbid them from hiring high-salary execs, bu

          • Re:Health care as well (Score:5, Informative)

            by BWJones ( 18351 ) * on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:46PM (#8003671) Homepage Journal
            Yes, but that HMO still feels the natural competitive pressure from other HMOs to ensure they keep costs as low as possible. That doesn't forbid them from hiring high-salary execs, but it does keep those high salaries from being higher than they are...

            Actually, if you examine the statistics, HMO's have decidedly not decreased the cost of medicine. In reality all they have done is created a new layer of middle management and moved the money that previously was going to physicians, hospitals, nurses and technicians to managers. Do this little experiment: Go down to your local HMO hospital and look in the parking lot. I will betcha that most of the nice hardware does not belong to the physicians. Rather, it belongs to the managment, particularly in HMO's that are vertically organized and provide the insurance as well as the health care delivery.

            If insurance is also providing the care, how do you think that works? Its a business, and businesses are in business to make money, not to be generous and provide the best possible health care. Therefore, they will reduce the money they spend and the effort they make to provide health care in order to maximize profits.

            • Re:Health care as well (Score:3, Interesting)

              by Ironica ( 124657 )
              Go down to your local HMO hospital and look in the parking lot. I will betcha that most of the nice hardware does not belong to the physicians. Rather, it belongs to the managment, particularly in HMO's that are vertically organized and provide the insurance as well as the health care delivery.

              You mean like Kaiser Permanente?

              My stepfather is a retired Kaiser cardiologist. Yeah, he has a pretty lame car. But that's because he prefers to spend the few million he's saved up over the years on trips to Born

        • Re:Health care as well (Score:4, Funny)

          by Ironica ( 124657 ) <pixelNO@SPAMboondock.org> on Friday January 16, 2004 @07:07PM (#8003831) Journal
          For instance, the largest HMO in our area is classified as non-profit, but the principals of that organization have S-class Benz's as company cars and make high six figure salaries. Non-profit does not mean lower costs of healthcare.

          Six-figure salaries don't mean higher costs of health care either. Non-profit doesn't have to mean that executives do their work for charity. Fact is, more and more public agencies and non-profits are finding that by offering competitive salaries and benefits packages for executive positions, they can save money system-wide by getting better managers.

          Sure, paying someone more doesn't mean they'll do a better job. But if you're out to find the best person for the job, paying more usually makes it more likely you'll actually get them.

      • Re:Health care as well (Score:4, Interesting)

        by duffbeer703 ( 177751 ) * on Friday January 16, 2004 @09:39PM (#8004721)
        Health costs have little to do with computers and everything to do with economics.

        The spiralling costs of healthcare in the US are caused by price ceilings (which have an inflationary effect), 1993-1995 "Reform" and deregulation of the pharmacutical industry and companies and patients jumping from insurer to insurer.

        Drug companies spend about $2 billion (2002 dollars) on direct to consumer advertising and about US$35 billion (2002 dollars) on R&D. Yet 20 years ago, drug companies spent $5 billion (2002 dollars) and released 150% more new drugs.

        Do some googling, you'll find that the US medical system is amoung the most corrupt institutions on the planet -- and nobody really cares.

    • Re:Health care as well (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Saeed al-Sahaf ( 665390 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:38PM (#8003621) Homepage
      How much of our current medical system is devoted to billing, reimbursement and trying to transfer and manage data? It's a lot.

      The major cost of health care is not the cost or Open Source status of the software used for billing.

      I cost goes a lot more about things like malpractice insurence, and the cost of drugs.

    • Re:Health care as well (Score:2, Insightful)

      by wgnorm ( 163220 )
      A standard open source health care database and form that is managed by the federal government...

      You actually think the federal government could manage this without screwing it up?

      They barely managed to get the DoNotCall list going, and I'm still getting tons of calls...
    • Here's some cool open source dental software - Open Dental [open-dent.com]. Could be expanded into what you're talking about.
      • !!!!! GPL'd .NET software??? how platform specific can you get...

        First dental software written for the Windows.NET framework! Windows.NET will be replacing Windows XP eventually. We use only cutting edge technology to bring you one of the most stable and advanced products available.

        All your data is available to you and under your complete control! Not just some of your data, but ALL of it is open (still very secure), available to other programs, and always under your control. Plan for the future and use

    • Yeah, but I'd imagine that you'd need a pretty robust and scalable RDBMS for healthcare. Is there an open source RDBMS that is up to the same kind of hammering that Oracle can take? It's been a while since I did any work with the likes of PostgresSQL and mySQL so I'll welcome any update on the situation there....

    • Re:Health care as well (Score:5, Insightful)

      by qtp ( 461286 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @09:27PM (#8004646) Journal
      A standard open source health care database and form that is managed by the federal government

      I'd much rather see a standard data format, or a standard interface for data transfer between providers than a centralized database.

      I am very wary of the current trend towards centralization of personal data, and I have not seen any proposals intended to regulate the sharing of the data (eg: a Right to Privacy Act that is applicable to private companies as well as governmental organisations), nor have I seen the existing privacy regulations enforced recently to the extent that they once were.

      A distributed database maintained by the individual providers that allows sharing of data at the patient's request would be a much more reasonable answer. There could be allowances for emergency situations (eg: patient is comotose and there is no next of kin) that would ensure caregivers access to necessary information, as long as the patient would be notified of what info was shared.

      I really don't like the idea of a centralized database that would allow "authorized" companies and individuals access to the entire collection, as I'm sure that others would not like recieving "Health Care Option notifications" (Half off on all pulminary bypass surgery! Now through March. Ask about our no-money-down financing for cosmetic procedures while you are there!) from every pharmaceutical company (Zoloft and Welbutrin! Upset about your job? Buy now and never be upset again!) that happens to have invested in a hospital or insurance company. It is sometimes better that all of that information is not in one place.

      • Re:Health care as well (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Take a look at HIPAA transactions Transaction FAQ [hhs.gov]. Standard formats are already implemented. Trust me, I'm intimately familiar with these formats having coded several of these transactions personally for my company. While the idea is great, and the potential for reducing cost high, guess what? Providers (docs) have been very slow to move over to this standard. After all, its a huge expense, all they want is their claims paid. Now, open source practice management at the office, with HIPAA transaction support

  • Hard to stay true to geek form (Score:4, Funny)

    by sudotcsh ( 95997 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:05PM (#8003371)
    Man, this is why I have such trouble being a geek. From the article:
    "Open source products, including Linux, are very attractive development platforms with a low barrier to entry."

    This entices me, but then I think I could just be spending time at the bar down the street, checking out the local girls with very attractive "development platforms" and low barriers to entry.

  • Shed some light (Score:4, Insightful)

    by W32.Klez.A ( 656478 ) * on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:05PM (#8003375) Homepage
    I personally would prefer that a government use an open system of well, anything, when it comes to running our vital services, as long as that information doesn't compromise security. The idea of a widespread open source initiative sounds like one of what may only be a small number of ways of getting our cities into the new millenium in these number-crunching times. That's just my take on it, and IANACIS (I am not a city infrastructure specialist).

  • Are you in Hampton Roads? (Score:4, Informative)

    by telemonster ( 605238 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:09PM (#8003415) Homepage
    Are you in Hampton Roads (Southeastern Virginia)?

    Check out the Tidewater Unix Users Group (www.twuug.org [twuug.org]) for linux/bsd/commercial users! Free open group that meets once a month.

    Also, there is a Hampton Roads geek mailing list on www.hrconnect.com [hrconnect.com].

    With any luck, Virginia Beach will also look into Linux as a viable alternative, especially after getting hit with an audit from Microsoft (as reported earlier on slashdot).

  • NYC turf wars (Score:5, Informative)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:13PM (#8003443) Homepage Journal
    Here in NYC, the police, fire, EMT and every other emergency responder under the Sun has carved out their own protocols and equipment for communications, few of which interoperate. Even after the WTC collapse, which cost so many lives (including NYC's Finest and Bravest), the "brass" are defending their communications "silos" from interoperability at the cost of efficiency. Reliability is paramount, so the leaders don't trust "foreign" tech, especially if it's fairly new, and outside their traditional operations.

    In NYC, we stay on top by picking winners. Whose municipal communications have recently been revamped in the public interest, which NYC could use as a model? Where can I find a good example of transcending organizational barriers, especially in the area of "wireless" (digital and analog radio) networks? I am due to deliver such info to the Mayor and City Council during 2004Q1-2, so Slashdotters have an opportunity to really make a difference here.

    • Re:NYC turf wars (Score:3, Informative)

      by gbjbaanb ( 229885 )
      I'm a developer - not a project manager/etc so I don't know enough about all this.... but I work for Intergraph in the UK. We have 2 shared control rooms - Isle of Man and Cleveland.

      IoM are perfectly happy to share a single system for the 3 emergency services, but they are a bit strange :)
      Cleveland Police and Ambulance are also happy to share... but Fire isn't. They've been dragged kicking and screaming into it and are still resisting.

      'foreign' tech can be good - it just needs to have an established track
      • How about some links to the "UK breakdown organization" and North Wales Police, and their mobile infosystems?
        • show your email publicly, and I'll email you on monday. Or email me, and I'll get you some links (hmmm. will take me time), or a marketing/sales type person who'll have all the nice documentation to hand. Let me know more about what you're after.
          Cheers.

          some news links from google:
          about the RAC [vnunet.com]

          Police, Fire:
          news [computing.co.uk]
          news [findarticles.com]
          news in pdf format [ginews.co.uk]

          Police Federation news [polfed.org]

          This is interesting for you.. the Fire Brigade Union's response to the government's desire to integrate control rooms (you don't need me to te
          • Thanks for your generous offer (and replies). But we're in an spam-paranoia stalemate, with neither of us publishing our addresses on Slashdot. Let's take this discussion to my Journal [slashdot.org].

    • Re:NYC turf wars (Score:4, Informative)

      by mellonhead ( 137423 ) <slashdot@swbell. ... t minus math_god> on Friday January 16, 2004 @07:01PM (#8003785) Homepage Journal
      Go to Austin, Texas and check out the Combined Transportation, Emergency & Communications Center. The following agencies reside in the building: City of Austin Police, Fire, EMS, and Transportation Division, Travis County Sheriff's Office, Capital Metro (they run the buses), both the City and County Offices of Emergency Management, and the Texas Department of Transportation. All agencies on the same radio system, the same Computer Aided Dispatch system, and also on the same operations floor. 105 dispatch/operator consoles, with everyone handling their agency, interacting with other agencies, and checking out the traffic as needed on the 48 monitor video wall.

    • Re:NYC turf wars (Score:2, Informative)

      by MikeApp ( 151816 )
      Pennsylvania has a state-wide system.

      http://www.nwfusion.com/supp/government2002/wire le ssside.html

  • Only on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:17PM (#8003477) Homepage
    Only on Slashdot will you find a word like Sisyphean.

    Instersting interview though. I think government is one of the most natural places for OSS though. Government is (or should be) open to the people, as is OSS. And people are always trying to find ways to do Government cheaper, since the money we give to our cities (say for the Water Department) should go to Water Department stuff (new pipes, etc) not making sure they have the lastest version of Soliare that comes with Windows. Free software is a great way to save costs while getting things done (and staying secure too, because I don't want that dang Mr. Smith down the street to know I spend $7.23 more per month on water than he does :).

    • Government operations in the USA strive to be as transparent as possible, or at least that's what they're supposed to be doing. What better way to prove that the tax-bill issuing software the town uses doesn't have an easter egg that marks the bills that should go to friends of the software development paid automatically, than to be able to display the source code for anybody who cares to inspect?
    • Only on Slashdot will you find a word like Sisyphean.

      Searched the web for Sisyphean: Results 1 - 10 of about 13,000. [google.com]

      Hmmm... ;)
    • It's also the only place you'll find a word like, "Instersting".

    • Only on Slashdot will you find a word like Sisyphean.

      ...used wrong. Well, if not wrong, not quite right. I don't think Sisyphus [pantheon.org] was under a lot of pressure, he just had to push that damn rock every day. It was hard work, and it was repetitive, and he never, ever got it to the top of the mountain, but there wasn't a deadline or anything. Think of it like patching Windows (ok, not just Windows, but this is slashdot) security holes - that's a sisyphusian task... it's painful and it never ends.

      Whatever

    • Government is (or should be) open to the people
      You unpatriotic clod! Are you some sort of terrorist?

  • That's funny (Score:3, Interesting)

    by thalakan ( 14668 ) <jspenceNO@SPAMlightconsulting.com> on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:24PM (#8003520) Homepage
    I'm consulting for an industrial control firm that installed and maintains some of the industrial control stuff over there at Newport News, and it's all done with proprietary stuff like VMS, and most of the other systems on that net are Windows based. There's not any open source stuff at all on that subnet as far as I can tell (except maybe for whatever parts of the GNU toolchain end up in the images Cisco distributes for their routers).

    Although some industrial control and SCADA firms are moving towards porting their stuff to Linux, many customers are very opposed to anything without 20+ years of history behind it. They all seem to be very opposed to this idea of hiring non-vendor people to support their software or to depend on software with a planned lifespan of less than 10 years or so. I think they'd have a revolt on their hands if they forced the city infrastructure departments to use open source stuff, based on the comments I've heard from some of the people working on the project.
    • Although some industrial control and SCADA firms are moving towards porting their stuff to Linux, many customers are very opposed to anything without 20+ years of history behind it.

      You mean like... Windows?
      • Actually, what everyone refers to as "Windows" now was actually introduced in 1993 [usenix.org]. VMS, which is still used (and will continue to be used) for many industrial control applications was introduced in 1978 [microsoft.com], and VMS itself was based on a few prior operating systems such as the RSX-11* family.

  • Publishing Requirements (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Sean80 ( 567340 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:30PM (#8003558)
    What would be tremendously interesting would be some sort of "bulletin board" where Governments could publish their requirements for software now and in the future. Then, civic-minded people could go and build it Open-Source.

    I wonder if this would work. In general, for those guys in charge of Open-Source projects out there, did you build your software based on personal interest, or some real-world requirement you'd heard about or experienced?

    Or perhaps something like this already exists?

    • Re:Publishing Requirements (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      >where Governments could publish their requirements for software now and in the future.

      Haven't worked on goverment projects? :)
      If they could do that, it would be over half of the battle right there.

      If its small enough project then they would just hire a student or two or three and implement it that way.
    • Not exactly on your topic but you may find this interesting: TechCorps Principles and Community Democracy cannot function without openness and transparency. Internet Democracy is no different. The Clark TechCorps represents a significant commitment to both these guiding principles. The TechCorps community is also complemented by the Clark Community Network. The CCN currently provides a free system for blogging and is based on Scoop, an open source community system. The Clark TechCorps will be closely int

  • Spoiler (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    this penetrating interview with Andy Stein

    I checked, there is no penetration.

  • Oracle / Sun / whoever to support this sort of open source applications work in Government? after all they have no vested interest in the business apps themselves, they just want to see them exist... traditionally they would have come from ISVs and SIs.

  • MS sponsored University Research (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bstadil ( 7110 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:37PM (#8003612) Homepage
    FOOS in Government? Not if MS research can prevent it.

    Latest implementation of the Halloween Memo can be found here [uni-muenster.de]

    If you have been exposed to Economics 101 you will have a field day reading this pseudo Research unfortunately published by a real university.

    You will be glad to know that FOOS will fail as there is "No market at the core" and it does not provide an optimal allocation of resources.

    He kind of forgot the benefit to the user of lower cost but who is counting.

    Read more over at Groklaw by the way

    • unfortunately, you needed to do a more advanced economics course. There is far, far more to government take-up of OSS than free linux.

      Recently Newham Borough Council, one of 9 government supported councils trialling OSS, scrapped its plans to migrate due to overall cost.

      Read about it here [computing.co.uk]

      There's far more to do that just give Linux and OpenOffice away for free. Lower cost does involve more than free licences for a desktop.

  • Sisyphus Versus Hercules (Score:5, Funny)

    by handy_vandal ( 606174 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:40PM (#8003637) Homepage Journal
    Police, fire and EMT early responders -- and the IT systems that support them - are under Sisyphean pressure to perform, while budgets are sagging.

    Beware the metaphor my son -- the jaws that bite, the claws that catch!

    "Sisyphean pressure" sounds impressive, until one considers that Sisyphus never once completed his task.

    On the other hand, "Herculean effort" makes clear that a lot of heavy lifting went on ... and that the deed got done, because that's the kind of guy Hercules was.

    Let's hope that the EMT's who respond to my heart attack are less Sisyphean and more Herculean ....

    -kgj

  • Remember Munich? (Score:4, Informative)

    by DrSkwid ( 118965 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:41PM (#8003644) Journal
    The Register is reporting [theregister.co.uk] :

    Last year, the city of Munich, Germany opted to go with Linux instead of Microsoft software on more than 14,000 desktop computers. This was seen as a significant setback for Microsoft and a clear sign of Linux' increasing viability. But now the project is in trouble, according to Computerwoche.

    This Spring, Munich needs to finish a migration plan as well as present a budget for the project. But according to Computerwoche there is not enough money and technical difficulties may result in stalling of the LiMux Project. In particular, smaller software vendors seem to be unable to migrate Munich to Linux, simply because they lack open source knowledge.

    -----------

    That's all it says.

    So not really Linux' fault all those German NT admins and Microsoft Certified Solution Providers can't get their head round it all.
    • So not really Linux' fault all those German NT admins and Microsoft Certified Solution Providers can't get their head round it all.

      I doubt its admins - it'll be software vendors who cannot, will not, (or can't be bothered to) port their apps to Linux. I guess some will, but would require paying large amounts to do so, money Munich obviously doesn't have.

      In-house staff can always be re-trained, and I guess many will be very happy to acquire new, in-demand, skills. Its the external staff you have no contr
  • Newport News, where I live, is using open source software. I think I just peed myself.

  • Munich in Trouble (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bstadil ( 7110 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:42PM (#8003652) Homepage
    Apparently the highly touted Linux mplementation in Munich is in trouble [theregister.co.uk]

    Maybe someone with first hand knowledge can comment, as this will most certaintly hit the popular press and it might be prudent to know the facts.

    • I would be surprised if this hit the popular press... look up the London Borough of Newham, follow them through their eval process and then see how much press their final decision got when they chose to stick with Microsoft.
      • I would be surprised if this hit the popular press...

        Come to think of it. I think you are right.

        I still would like to know what is happening behind the scene, though.

  • Comments on the article... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dexterpexter ( 733748 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:43PM (#8003657) Journal
    Open source in government is getting real.

    I assume that you mean the United States government. Open Source has been chosen in implemented by governments all over the world. I, for one, am eager to see the United States follow the international example for a change. I hate to nitpick, but it seems that people all-too-often mistake government to mean the U.S.

    I think that this would be an excellent test case for Open Source in the U.S. government. Considering the number of U.S.-based lawsuits over open source products, I think that this could finally bring the viability of using open source as a cost-saving measure to light so that local and state governments all over the United States will jump on the bandwagon and learn what we already know. Frankly, we need Open Source to be given more legitimacy in the United States as, outside of geek circles, it is all-too-often seen as a communist OS made for hobbyists... I know, I know, this makes no sense, but does most things?

    I can see the wheels turning now:
    "Wow. If a government deeply rooted in capitalism and who has good reason to demand security is willing to implement an Open Source product, it must be good."

    When asked if the SCO case concerned him, the interviewer answered: "It further complicates the decision-making process and promotes uncertainty" and I have to agree. That is why this would be such an important, powerful move. A government opting to use Open Source software is what will promote Open Source certainty. We need folks with power standing up and saying the same thing he did when he said: "Linux has shown itself as a stable and a solid performer in the server area." What a great opportunity for this to be heard!

    Software will break and the process of bringing it back to operation needs to be reliable. With open source software, the support structure is not always clear.

    I can't resist. Yes, M$ software breaks. That off my chest, I think that Linux has shown itself to have a very strong, if slightly disjointed support structure. And, where there is a need, a solution will be forged. Perhaps they can take the money they were throwing into the software and support structure, and use it to financially support an organized Open Source Support structure. Less money, better software, better support.


    The final point they made was a great one:
    "Citizens can call their City Council representatives and voice their opinion. It is their tax money at stake. The promise is more and better services for less."

    What a great idea. Not just for the places concerned in this article, but in our government as well. Perhaps if enough people called their representatives (who may or may not be tech savvy and who may or may not even know what Open Source is), we might possibly see this realized.

    LOL. Creating The Slashdot lobby? Neat.

  • What's keeping Linux out? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Saeed al-Sahaf ( 665390 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:45PM (#8003667) Homepage
    "Open source products, including Linux, are very attractive development platforms with a low barrier to entry."

    Oh how I know this is going to get me flamed! Mention VB, and get ready for Slashdot Hell. But anyway...

    One problem that Linux has is a smooth development platform with a great IDE, and widgets (widgets make the "enterprise" IT world go round!) Borland C Builder is very nice, but please keep in mind that the sucsess of VisualBasic is not only because an idiot can make an exicutable. It is also because it is in fact possible to build good apps in a very intuitive way.

  • Linux in wide use in Naval Base here (Score:4, Interesting)

    by MarcQuadra ( 129430 ) * on Friday January 16, 2004 @06:47PM (#8003677)
    I have a friend who works at the Underwater Naval Warfare Center here in Newport, RI. He develops code that runs automated warfare and fleet movement. He says that about HALF of their 3000 machines are running RedHat Linux.

    I was amazed to hear this, because there seems to be almost no Linux penetration in RI, only 7 users are registered here on LinuxCounter. I also have only seen one Linux box in RI in actual use (outside University), and it was just being used at a router at a non-profit.

    Every time I asked a boss or a client about using Linux for menial purposes (file/print servers, routers/firewalls, etc.) They practically laugh me out of the room. I finally found a job that's OSS friendly, but it's in Boston where people have their heads on straight.
  • Something's gotta give, and it's going to be the aging software infrastructure in our towns and cities.

    I thought it was Jack Nicholson...

  • Open source in government is getting real. Tom Adelstein, in this penetrating interview with Andy Stein, the CIO of Newport News, Virginia...

    So when the entire country of Peru goes for it, it's not real, but when some little town in Virginny does, well then!

    You insensitive Americlods!

  • "More for less" (Score:3, Insightful)

    by fiannaFailMan ( 702447 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @07:11PM (#8003870) Journal
    Citizens can call their City Council representatives and voice their opinion. It is their tax money at stake. The promise is more and better services for less.
    "More and better services for less" is every American voter's wet dream. Ask any decent sized group of voters if they want to pay more tax and they'll look at you like you're not wise. Ask them if they want better public services and they'll say of course they do, and ask you why you're asking such a stupid question.

    Throw this idea of collaborative open source development in local government in front of the voters and they'll love it. This is a great opportunity for the open source movement to get some real popular sentiment behind it, and any politician that jumps on it will find it an even safer way to get elected than rigging, sorry, 'redistricting' his own electoral boundaries.

    The cash-strapped cities will benefit. The citizens will benefit. The open-source movement will benefit. Everyone's a winner. Apart from Micro$oft.

    It's such an elegant idea. Think of the amount of duplication that will be eliminated!

  • Already emailed my City Council... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Ironica ( 124657 ) <pixelNO@SPAMboondock.org> on Friday January 16, 2004 @07:19PM (#8003946) Journal
    ...How about you?

    I read the article, went to my city's home page (www.weho.org [weho.org]) and submitted a comment to the city council. Short and to the point: I have long wanted governments to increase use of OS because it will lower costs and improve transparency of government operations. Here's a collaborative project they could get involved in (article link). Please consider. And since I actually live in a city that's small and progressive enough to think about it, maybe something will happen.

    But seriously, that's what the article asks us to do. So if you like the idea, don't just say so here... tell your City Council. Tell them even if they're a bunch of decrepit morons firmly entrenched in a monolithic and incomprehensible government bureaucracy. Tell them even if it's a couple guys who meet on weekends to go over the problems of a tiny population. But *especially* tell them if, like me, you live in an urban municipality with a progressive, community-supported government and a decent median income.
  • ...Open Source.

    SLG admins + managers are in it for the pension. Risk usually does not bode well for those who are lookin for security and retirement after 25 yrs of service.

    For Newport News this looks like he was able to make a mark for himself and got lucky. Most admins and managers that I talk to do not have this luxury.

    To advance and therefor get a bigger pention they need to be able to pass on the torch.. Open source is "too complex" to pass the torch on to risk averse admins and managers.

    Finally; '

  • What "sagging budgets"? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by John Jorsett ( 171560 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @07:45PM (#8004106)
    Despite all the wailing, I'm betting you'd be hard pressed to find many governmental entities that are actually going to get less money this year. When a bureaucrat says "cut," that generally means less of an increase than expected, not less actual dollars. During the '90s, goverments got used to fat increases each year and built those expectations into each successive budget. Then when the good times ended, suddenly instead of 5, 6, 7, or even 8 percent increase, they got 1 or 2, and it looked like the end of the world.
  • I lived in Newport News from age 14 to age 24. It was a long 10 years. Well...it was ok for that age, I suppose - but when I go back now, from Alexandria, VA where I live now - eeeeeghh....it's just nice to get back home to good ole northern VA.

    Anyone else from around there?



    blakespot

  • My wife, a linux geek, was arrested in Newport News when we lived there. If I had known they were looking into Linux, I would have asked her to install Linux on the police computer network :-)

    (she was let go, it was a misunderstanding... that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)

  • Battle? Collaboration? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by solprovider ( 628033 ) on Friday January 16, 2004 @09:18PM (#8004606) Homepage
    Most of us have recently seen an increase in news reports about open source software showing up in governments. Most of those reports seem to dramatize an upcoming battle between Linux and Microsoft. Rarely do we see information on the pros and cons of collaborative software development.

    It is difficult to have a battle when one side will not show up, and the other side's weapons will not work without rebooting several times.

    (Insert bullet. Detected new hardware, please reboot. Loading drivers, please reboot. Shoot. Insert bullet. Detected new hardware...)

    ---
    I learned about programming in the late 70s-early 80s. I started learning by reading code in magazines. I figured that someday I would share my code in magazines. Source was open because everything was interpreted.

    I naively thought that was how software was shared. I thought that all programming would be shared. Write once, or find someone else's version, then never write that function again.

    I grew up and entered the corporate world. I wrote code, and it was shared inside the company. We did not really have a method to share with other companies.

    Then the internet. All the source was open, at least for HTML pages, and continuing when JavaScript was added. Sharing was mandatory, because the "code" was still interpreted.

    But we also had these new things called software companies. I learned Pascal by reading the source to Visicalc. I have never seen the source for Lotus123 or MSExcel. How can I fix or add to it? How do I learn from it?

    Then I read about RMS and FSF and GNU. Sounded good. Why were businesses using proprietary programs when they could collaborate and get what they wanted cheaper? I still have not heard a good answer, other than management DOES NOT WANT any responsibility they can avoid. They prefer a fixed cost every year to a single effort that produces something that exactly fits their needs.

    ---
    For example, in October I noticed that one of my clients had an incredibly poor process: bad UI for input, little error-checking during input, more human resources dedicated to fixing the bad data than to entering it.

    I built a prototype of an application that would solve all that, run on worse client hardware than they were using, and allow remote access. It would integrate further up and down the process, so the people collecting the data would also input it. It included a similar business process that had not been automated yet. I arranged a meeting with management, and I demonstrated it to them.

    It turned out that for several years they had been considering an "industry standard" software package to improve this process. My demonstration was the catalyst that caused a decision to be made. They "chose" the industry standard. My software was:

    - cheaper in the short term. (They are my favorite client. I had built the prototype for fun. I wanted them to use it to demonstrate other skills that might have led to more business. So I told them to pick a price a little lower than the first year of the other product.)

    - free in the long term (I was giving them all source. The industry standard is proprietary and charges annual licensing.)

    - better suited to their business. (I built it for them. I know how they think. I know how they will use it and what output they expect. The industry standard is, well, standard.)

    - better integrated with their current software. (I BUILT THE CURRENT REPORTING SOFTWARE. My prototype was built to easily transfer into that program. We had already proven integration with the other backends. I do not know how the other product integrates, but IT is already complaining.)

    - better ownership. (Forget the source. The industry standard uses the ASP model where the proprietary company owns your data!)

    I have had every person involved with this process, except the decision maker, tell me that my "prototype" was already better than the new product.
  • Government IT, particularly local government IT is dominated by politically connected VARs with hokey software and high profit margins.

    Vendors in vertical markets like medicine and government applications do not benefit from open source... the more their customers perceive that their systems are proprietary and special, the more willing they are to pay exorbitant licence and support fees. Well placed friendships or political relationships don't hurt either.

  • ...when it comes to doing things on the cheap.

    This is where CEBAF, the Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator facility is. They built the place in large part with surplus stuff from other places, for a fraction of what it would have cost.

    I'm betting CEBAF didn't go all Microsofty when it came to their IT. There's homegrown experts right in their back yard.
  • The article was written by someone from the Open Office camp, which I recently had to REMOVE from my computer because it royally screwed up several documents that I tried to open. I will not say how it screwed them up, because I see no reason to support Open Bloatware with bug reports. But I WILL say, CAVEAT EMPTOR.
  • Great one Sam!

    Sisyphean [slashdot.org]

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