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Media Microsoft

NPR's Car Talk Dumping RealMedia 717

Posted by Cliff from the fed-up-and-not-taking-it-anymore dept.
olcrazypete writes: "Click and Clack are apparently fed up with Real Networks. They have switched to Windows Media Player format. 'Why? Because, for a long time, we've had tons of complaints about RealNetworks. And the one that ticks us off the most is the perceived trickery they use to sell their premium products. This is just our opinion, mind you, but it's shared by enough of our listeners, that we finally decided to take action.' The whole story is here . My favorite line: 'It stinks so much that it even makes Microsoft look good by comparison. That's something, huh?'"
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NPR's Car Talk Dumping RealMedia More

NPR's Car Talk Dumping RealMedia

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  • Realmedia (Score:5, Funny)

    by Bishop, Martin ( 695163 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @12:46AM (#8148745)
    I would like to write an open letter to the people of RealMedia, telling them how I disp *BUFFERING*

    • Re:Realmedia (Score:4, Funny)

      by cmacb ( 547347 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @04:25AM (#8149654) Homepage Journal
      " I would like to write an open letter to the people of RealMedia, telling them how I disp *BUFFERING*"

      Yeah, seems like no matter how high you set the buffering value it falls behind. It almost seems like that setting isn't actually connected to anything in the code. Maybe there will be an open surce equivalent soon that will let you write the whole godam stream to a file before it even starts playing. That would solve the problem...

      As is so often the case, Microsofts tactics (and I don't doubt for a minute there is some financial incentive behind this) will pay off for them. The more locked into WMA people get the more they will get screwed over in the long run.

      I can hardly wait for the fuckwits at Microsoft to Screw you Tapit brothers, I'll not be listening again. (They didn't give very good car advice anyway, it's just a comedy show these days).

      Couldn't they have at least waited for the community player to get off the ground?

      https://www.helixcommunity.org/

      • Re:Realmedia (Score:4, Interesting)

        by cmacb ( 547347 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @04:50AM (#8149709) Homepage Journal
        PS:

        I wrote them a nasty letter. While I was doing so it occured to me...

        If what they say is true why aren't they just using an MP3 stream? that works everywhere. Could it be this has something to do with their hosting company being a big Windows 2000 server farm?

        http://www.corsis.com

        Lets see, last time a big hosting company went all Windows, wasn't that Digex? I wonder what ever happened to them? hehe

        Funny their demise didn't make nearly the splash that their switch to Windows did. Oh well.
        • If what they say is true why aren't they just using an MP3 stream? that works everywhere. Could it be this has something to do with their hosting company being a big Windows 2000 server farm?

          I was just thinking the same thing. Winamp Shoutcast (although a little funny) or IceCast would work great. I have been playing with this stuff myself (check my homepage -err rather don't my little box can't handle more that a few streams) and the standard MP3/M3U combo works great. Am I missing something? Or are the

      • Re:Realmedia (Score:5, Informative)

        by achurch ( 201270 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @04:52AM (#8149711) Homepage

        Maybe there will be an open surce equivalent soon that will let you write the whole godam stream to a file before it even starts playing.

        mplayer -ovc copy -oac copy -o foo.avi rtsp://whatever

        (And what does "disp" mean? News about English slang is tragically lacking over here in the land of the rising sun . . .)

  • So why not QuickTime? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ninja Programmer ( 145252 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @12:47AM (#8148748) Homepage
    Not that I would ever endorse anything from Apple, but their streaming media technology seems fairly competent.

    • Re:So why not QuickTime? (Score:2, Informative)

      by Jay L ( 74152 )
      On my Windows XP boxes, QuickTime has been remarkably unstable through three major and countless minor releases. Crashes, weird artifacts that linger for the duration of playback, "corrupted" files that played fine under Win2K...

      I wouldn't use QuickTime for authoring unless my audience was primarily Mac-based.
      • I dunno why so many people have troubles with Quicktime. I have two Windows boxes (one 98, one XP), and Quicktime has never given me ANY troubles. Actually, for me its been more stable than WMP. I wonder why? :\

        • I mostly agree, other then the stupid skin and thus not really following all the standard OS keyboard shortcuts, and the lack of a real full screen maximize feature unless you pay them money, Quicktime is a pretty good player. I never have any stability problems with it, and it even works great with Mozilla on my Win2000 box. The single frame forward-back and pause/play keyboard shortcuts probably make up for the downfalls just listed above though. Really I guess I could deal with the dumb looking skin if

      • Re:So why not QuickTime? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Valdrax ( 32670 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:05AM (#8148877)
        Well, if they're already used to authoring for two different media types, why not move to one that allows you to keep your Mac-using audience instead of alienating them?
      • I have never had a problem with quiktime, ever. Currently using it with W2K. Care to point me too some of these files?

      • On my Windows XP boxes, QuickTime has been remarkably unstable through three major and countless minor releases. Crashes, weird artifacts that linger for the duration of playback, "corrupted" files that played fine under Win2K...

        iTunes (which runs QuickTime underneath) streams Sean Hannity [hannity.com] (in MP3) for me without a hitch on WinXP and Win2K. That's three hours a day with no glitches, unless there's a problem on the server side. (I know the problem is on their end because Winamp doesn't work any better

    • Re:So why not QuickTime? (Score:5, Informative)

      by prockcore ( 543967 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:04AM (#8148871)
      Not that I would ever endorse anything from Apple, but their streaming media technology seems fairly competent.

      We tried to do streaming media with Darwin Streaming Server.. the problem is that you need Quicktime Pro in order to make streaming quicktimes.

      Also, DSS doesn't do on-demand. It works like TV, you can't start at the beginning, you have to "tune in" to the broadcast.

      As crappy as realmedia is, we can do live broadcasts, as well as let people listen in from the beginning, all with the same stream. Once we find a solution that lets us do both for relatively cheap, we'll switch.

      DSS is almost there, they just need the ability to do on-demand streaming.

    • Re:So why not QuickTime? (Score:3, Informative)

      by oohp ( 657224 )
      Just makes me sick that it pops up a windows asking you to update every time. I don't wanna update, get it Apple, eh?!
  • Why not just use MP3?
    Sure, it's not a free solution for them, but at least it's universal.
    • Better yet, why not Ogg Vorbis?

      I guess it's pretty bad when *even Linux users* would rather have streaming radio in Mindows Media format than Real Media format.
      • I actually posted a comment to this effect in another thread (and got modded to -1 for some reason, oh well). Why NOT Ogg? It's free for them, free for me, and works under every OS. If they think M$ is good, then Ogg is 100 times better, IMO. Then again, maybe they don't want people saving the stream or something?

        Oh well, enough of Car Talk, I guess. At least RealPlayer worked... I can't get it to work in MPlayer OR gxine. Anyone have some pointers?

    • Re:Why not just use MP3? (Score:5, Informative)

      by ajlitt ( 19055 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @02:48AM (#8149354)
      Because they sell archives through Audible. Using a streaming format with DRM at least provides some ass-coverage against redistribution. Remember, Car Talk is not free-as-in-beer. Your local NPR affiliate pays a hefty chunk of change for Car Talk, All Things Considered, and other radio shows you all take for granted.

  • Why lock in listeners? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Gunfighter ( 1944 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @12:48AM (#8148759)
    Switch to something a little more open minded... like Nullsoft's Shoutcast [shoutcast.com]. I listen to some pretty nice UK radio stations from across the pond with KDE's Noatun whilst I code thanks to Shoutcast. I don't see any reason why its not usable for radio broadcasts like Click & Clack.
    • Beat me to the punch on this. Nullsoft has had such an excellent grasp on audio and video streaming, I'm surprised more companies aren't jumping all over that wagon.
    • I think the answer to that is that Windows Media is on almost every computer (including my Mac) and is _much_ easier to get (as the article points out). Joe user is going to be much more happy with that because all he really wants is to learn about his car.

    • Shoutcast open? Try Icecast or Helix. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by xiphmont ( 80732 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:09AM (#8148903) Homepage
      Openminded? I think you mean Icecast [icecast.org], not shoutcast.

      And for that matter, to be fair to Real, the the Helix server/player/tools [helixcommunity.org] are also Open/Free (both Speech and Beer).

      That doesn't really address the 'free Real player is harder to find than Osama Bin Laden at night' comment... Real's own employees have bitched about that for years, God knows the rest of us have. Hopefully that gives the Open movement within Real (the Helix Community) a little more leverage in selling their case to the more hardline business folk still trying to figure out why their user base is evaporating.

      OTOH, I'm a bit pissed off... I have a free Real player (with all the source) that works great. Thanks Click and Clack, I can't listen to your program anymore. That 'free' windows player comes with a $200 Windows tax attached.

      Nothing like a damned fool 'statement' that flies in the face of common sense.

      Monty

      • Sure, the windows player has a $200 Windows tax. And a $200-$4000 PC tax ('cause hey, the files don't do much good if you don't have a PC), and even Linux comes with this tax.

        Got a Mac? Guess there's an OSX tax there, along with the inflated hardware tax.

        On Linux, you can use MPlayer to play wma files. Completely free. Except for the PC tax.

        For some reason, your post reminded me of this. [penny-arcade.com]

        Hope you don't mind the PC tax required to view that strip....

      • Mod parent up. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by robla ( 4860 ) * on Sunday February 01, 2004 @04:41AM (#8149695) Homepage Journal
        Being one of Real's employees that Monty has heard from, I can say "hear hear". Even with my Real hat on, I say Icecast would be far superior than what has transpired

        One defense I will offer for our hardline business folks is that they've figured out how to keep the lights on. The fact of the matter is, we just announced that consumer revenue was 76% of our 2003q4 revenue [realnetworks.com], up from 70% the previous quarter. "Consumer revenue" is made up of subscriptions to our premium business, as opposed to systems revenue selling media servers. People assume that our business is still about media servers. So, they do get a little zealous about keeping the subscription business growing.

        The thing that can't be repeated enough is that RealAudio is a supported format on Linux. Now, Linux users are forced to use jury-rigged solutions to listen to Car Talk. Very sad.

        Rob Lanphier
        Helix Troublemaker [helixcommunity.org]
        RealNetworks

    • "On the Media" uses downloadable MP3 (Score:5, Interesting)

      by for(;;); ( 21766 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:30AM (#8148995)
      And it's the best show on NPR, bar none. They started offering this a month or two back, and the next week had a sample from their deluge of "thank you" letters.

      Click and Clack probably haven't noticed this -- busy, as they always are, laughing at their own jokes.
    • I'd also prefer Shoutcast of even plain mp3 at lower quality. However, bear in mind that you're not locked out if you use Linux. Just download mplayerplug-in [sourceforge.net] and be happy (you need MPlayer, obviously). This also has the added advantage of allowing you to see pretty much anything that requires WMP, such as AtomFilms and others.

    • Re:Why lock in listeners? (Score:4, Informative)

      by frantzdb ( 22281 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:38AM (#8149038) Homepage
      Let them know. [cartalk.com]
  • Don't be fooled how much clearer the Real site is now (in regards to finding the free player).

    Real already changed their site in response to this public embarrassment. Though they will probably never admit it...
    • Go look. there are two clicks I see. the big "FREE REAL PLAYER (14 day trial) which occupies 95 % of the page and a tiny one that says "free realplayer one". Which if you didn't know there was a difference you would assume was the same one.

      I'm looking at this from a mac computer, and it is detecting my appleness, so maybe the sight looks different from different browsers?

    • Re:Real already changed the site in response to th (Score:5, Informative)

      by joe_bruin ( 266648 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:14AM (#8148926) Homepage Journal
      no they did not. they are still playing games.

      go to http://www.real.com/ [real.com].
      the headline reads: Introducing RealPlayer 10
      subheadline: New Powerful Free
      with a big image with a big, bright "Free" logo.

      click on the free logo takes you here:
      http://www.real.com/realplayer.html?pp=home&src=01 2904realhome_1_3_2_1_1_1 [real.com]

      there are two big "Download Now" buttons on this site. both lead to the non-free premium player. in the margin on the right, with grey text over a grey background, there is a link to the free player.

      that is bullshit. i know the free player is there, and that real plays tricks, so i specifically look for it. the average internet user, on the other hand, may not be that aware.

      real are still assholes, and i am glad cartalk is moving away from their format because of their shitty tactics.

      • Re:Real already changed the site in response to th (Score:5, Funny)

        by dazed-n-confused ( 140724 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @03:23AM (#8149479)
        "in the margin on the right, with grey text over a grey background, there is a link to the free player."

        Reminds me of this:

        "It's the wild colour scheme that freaks me," said Zaphod whose love affair with this ship had lasted almost three minutes into the flight, "Every time you try to operate on of these weird black controls that are labelled in black on a black background, a little black light lights up black to let you know you've done it. What is this? Some kind of galactic hyperhearse?"
        From The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, by Douglas Adams.

      • Re:Real already changed the site in response to th (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Moraelin ( 679338 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @05:21AM (#8149778) Journal
        Well, the web site I could live with, seein' as you can eventually find the free link. Waste of time and lame, yes, but still... it's a one time affair.

        What really got my goat when I could last be arsed to try RealOne, though, was that it was the worst annoy-ware ever. None of the obvious options seemed to convince it that

        1. no, I do _not_ want it to keep pre-loading itself, and

        2. no, I don't want to be spammed with their lame pop-ups... even when I'm not even watching and realmedia files any more, and have manually removed all file associations to it

        It was _not_ convincing me to fork over the dough for the premium version. Au contraire, it just served to convince me that I _don't_ want to "vote with the wallet" that such lame practices continue.

        Now mind you, this was some two versions back, so I don't know if they fixed it or not in the meantime. But still, it's left such a bitter taste in my mouth, that I don't want to have anything to do with them again. Ever.

        And just for the sake of having a good rant, what the **** is with all these business models based on annoying the potential customer? I can understand that they need money, but then don't bloody advertise it as "FREE!!!"

        The whole thing is as if I advertised "FREE MP3 players!" Only once you've got one, I started showing up at your house, reading your diary, making a list of what music you're playing, listening to your phone conversations (the non-Internet equivalent of what spyware does to a TCP/IP connection), and shouting in front of your window to give me money if you want me to shut up. Even when you're not actually using that MP3 player.

        Surely noone would put up with that kind of a trick, for a non-computer product. But in the software world it's become accepted and expected that, hey, the user is a computer-illiterate anyway. You're _expected_ to sell him/her snake oil, rape his/her privacy as hard as you can, never test or debug the product first, and generally be as annoying or dishonest as possible if it makes you money. etc. How did this happen?

  • Linux and FreeBSD options (Score:5, Informative)

    by Larne ( 9283 ) * on Sunday February 01, 2004 @12:49AM (#8148768)
    For those who don't know already, both mplayer [mplayerhq.hu] and xine [sourceforge.net] play streaming windows media just fine on Linux/FreeBSD/etc.

    • Re:Linux and FreeBSD options (Score:4, Informative)

      by Comsn ( 686413 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @02:45AM (#8149338)
      the codec cartalk uses is Windows Media 9 Voice Decoder, which is not implemented nor easily importable into mplayer (seems mplayer is not calling the dll correctly). but have no fear, the dev's are working to get this codec in.

      others who dont import the codec will see the error "Cannot find codec for audio format 0xA."

      http://cartalk.cars.com/Radio/help.html [cars.com] used to say

      Are there Windows Media Player choices for Linux? You can use MPlayer, which is free, or The CrossOver Plugin from CodeWeavers for $25.

      but they took that out of the current page google cache [216.239.37.104]

      • Never fear? (Score:3, Informative)

        by robla ( 4860 ) *
        Copying unlicensed DLLs as a Linux multimedia "solution" is shortsighted, and quite frankly, stupid. What happens when Microsoft chooses to DRM protect the DLLs? What happens when they start lacing them with NGSCB [microsoft.com] (nee Palladium)? If you keep shrugging off content providers switching to Linux-hostile formats, you're going to find yourself locked out of content.

        Rather than celebrate another format win by Microsoft, complain! Put up a stink.

        In the meantime, if you don't like the way the RealPlayer cur

  • Why not Quicktime? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BWJones ( 18351 ) * on Sunday February 01, 2004 @12:50AM (#8148774) Homepage Journal
    Seriously though. These guys (Click and Clack) are Macheads so why not quicktime? The Quicktime streaming server fundamentals are under the Darwin open source and free paradigms, there are no licensing fees as there are with Windows, and hey, it's so easy to use. So, what gives?

    • Is there a windows client besides quicktime itself? I *hate* quicktime almost as much as I hate realplayer.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • There are really only two major players out there these days, Windows Media and Quicktime.

    The main problem with Real is the server licenses. That and the really bad reputation their spyware gave the format.

    Give people a choice of Windows Media and QuickTime, for video or audio, and you really can't go far wrong.

    Flash video is looking really good these days too, although it's still early days for the Macromedia folks.

  • I don't like Real Media either (Score:4, Interesting)

    by lukior ( 727393 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @12:51AM (#8148781)
    Peoples problem with Real Media is not the quality of the streaming media. It is the constant barrage of advertising and popups to get you to sign up for the premium service. Microsoft may no tdo this now but once they have the market cornered they will switch to a pay for play model i'm guessing. I'm surprised that Car talk is moving away from this kind of crap when so many others are moving toward. It seems like half the online newspapers that used to be free are now a charge or register type of thing.
  • IMHO, both Real Player and Windows Media Player are both bloated, ugly, and slow. I do tend to prefer WMP over Real One, because the video quality is better, but seeking in streaming tracks is slower and their interface (well, both of them actually) looks like they came out of windows 3.11. I don't know why they didn't opt for something more open, like MPEG 4 (yes, I know about the consortium fees... still gotta be better than dealing with MS). I'd say quicktime, as it seems to be the most responsive and

  • The company they keep (Score:5, Interesting)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @12:53AM (#8148796)
    I used to like Real. Even after the debacle with the spyware in their jukebox, I was willing to give them a second chance. But I learned my lesson somewhere around G2. I was installing their latest player on my wife's Windows box, and up pops a Gator installer!

    Of course it also didn't help my opinion of them that they provided my state with Maria Cantwell. :-P

  • Adult Industry (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Neon Spiral Injector ( 21234 ) * on Sunday February 01, 2004 @12:54AM (#8148801)
    Back when Real Media was using the adult entertainment industry to get their hold on the streaming media market, they had a special link for adult websites that made it much more obvious how to download the free player. Of course back then finding the free player link from their main page wasn't so hard either.

    Divx.com is guilty of the same thing. They have a free codec package that will work fine with Windows Media Player. But it isn't in their table of their three main products. Also if you do find it, and just go with the install default config options, you'll see a Divx watermark at the start of every video. This can be turned off easy enough from the "Decoder Configuration Utility".

  • Buffering...Buffering... (Score:3, Funny)

    by NightWulf ( 672561 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @12:55AM (#8148806)
    It's about...buffering.......time someone....buffering..buffering...realized realmedia sucks...buffering...for everything.
  • It's free isn't it? It definitely sucks less than Windows Media.
    • Yeah, it's free. And all you need to get started with it is Quicktime Broadcaster, (Also free) and a *nix box running Quicktime Streaming Server.
      So I guess the big cost would be, what? A low-end (say, a G4 iMac to do the initial encoding and send the audio stream to the QTSS box for mass distribution. Oh, and a few brain cells.

  • Four words (Score:5, Insightful)

    by stox ( 131684 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @12:59AM (#8148835) Homepage
    Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

  • Great move (Score:4, Insightful)

    by theatre_freak ( 548212 ) <<clean> <at> <citynet.net>> on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:00AM (#8148842) Homepage
    I can't say that I blame them. I haven't had RealPlayer on any of my PCs for ages. I went to fetch the most recent incarnation a few days ago and was completely blown away that what ought to be a relatively simple audio/video streaming client had grown to be more than 14MB.

    As much as it doesn't sit well with me, Media Player is included with Windows. It requires no downloads, it doesn't bombard me with ads, and it seems to work pretty well.
  • Now I may give them a good online listen as well. I like their attitude towards radio broadcasting - in fact they're the only radio station I listen to when driving to and from work.

  • Why not Shoutcast, OGG, etc. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by molafson ( 716807 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:01AM (#8148852)
    Here's the main reason they likely decided to use Windows Media instead of "free" alternatives or Quicktime: The people at Car Talk want to make it easy for their listeners to tune in. They know that the majority of PCs in the world already have the Windows Media Player sitting there on the desktop waiting to be clicked, or the plugin already tied to Internet Explorer.

    The transition will therefore be as seamless as possible for the listeners -- a simple matter of "click here" and the program will play. No messing around with downloading new clients, configuring, or what have you.

    Whether you (open source booster) think this is right or wrong is another matter entirely.
    • You are exactly correct in your analysis. Alas, it's the right answer because the CarTalk guys asked the wrong question. They asked which single format they should use for maximum reach and maximum ease. They should have asked which formatS would accomplish the task. In other words, why not WM for the hordes and Ogg/Shoutcast/OtherFreePackage for others? As the man said, "it don't cost nuthin'."

  • Never go back (Score:5, Informative)

    by Konster ( 252488 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:10AM (#8148909)
    Go here to get Real Alternative.

    It plays Real Audio crap without the need for Real's crapware.

    Windows only, I do believe.

    http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Real_Alterna ti ve.htm
  • Everybody send them an e-mail asking them to do a .mp3 stream that way everyone will have no problem listening to the show.
    Since i'm sure their switch to windows media was in good faith I doubt they'd mind switching over if the demand is there.

  • File Types (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:20AM (#8148953)
    To me file types are like a langauge. They should be free and open. Could you imagine the mess we'd be in if we had to pay a fee to use the english language. Or if someone kept it hidden so that it could only be used with their translators. For the man that could patent it, it would be a gold mine.

  • Behind the scenes (Score:5, Funny)

    by Alien Being ( 18488 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @01:27AM (#8148986)
    Car Talk's technical advisor, Meg Ahertz said that the RealMedia is complete bogosity. "I tried to reason with their VP, Hugh Jass, but he redirected me to their lawyers, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe." At that point, I turned the matter over to our staff mediators, Sue First and Bernadette Bridge. The rest is history.

  • ffmpeg (Score:3, Informative)

    by G27 Radio ( 78394 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @02:05AM (#8149151)
    We host the local NPR station using ffmpeg and everyone's been quite happy with it. When they initially consulted with us I recommended against RealPlayer for exactly the reasons stated in the summary.

    The only 'problem' I have with ffmpeg is that it's been using 100% cpu on one of the processors. But since it's a dual-processor server that we are no longer using for anything major other than the streaming, it hasn't been a big enough issue to figure out why it's doing it.

  • This may be a bit off-topic (Score:4, Informative)

    by jogie112 ( 631492 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @02:12AM (#8149198)
    But one person finds this reply useful, I'll be happy. :) There exists an alternative to downloading the horrid Real Player. Try googling "Real Alternative". It is a freely available codec that can work with any standard media player (such as Media Player Classic). Infact, I think it comes bundled with MPC. As far as I know, it works well.

  • Do it yourself (Score:3, Informative)

    by NonaMyous ( 731004 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @02:23AM (#8149243)
    You can always grab the radio signal from the ether and encode it to MP3 or whatever on your own. Here are a couple of pages on how to do this: #1 [burd.info], #2 [linuxgazette.com].

  • Instructions on how to make RP10 less annoying (Score:4, Informative)

    by GarfBond ( 565331 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @02:37AM (#8149300)
    Here's a link to instructions on how to make realplayer 10 less annoying to install [doom9.org], posted on the doom9 forums and by a RealNetworks employee no less.

    Some choice quotes:

    "Previous RealPlayers and RealOne players have been impolite in certain areas (Message Center with ads, file types, icons everywhere, running in the traybar). It has been possible to make it well mannered, but it has included being forced to delete certain files to prevent the Message Center from popping up. However, regarding the "spyware" allegations, I have read that one old player did send back some usage information. That's long gone, but it's hard to be forgiven for that mistake."

    Players in the past have been considered badly behaved enough, that to be frank, many computer users, from novices to experts, hate RealPlayer, and want to stay as far away as possible. Even the marketing people have started to understand this, and RP 10 is one good step in the right direction of behaving nicer, but it may not be enough, considering how bad the reputation is (yes, we do get the feedback, us developers more than the marketeers, since chances are higher we read the tech forums).

  • But mplayer doesn't work with this codec!? (Score:3, Informative)

    by swatter ( 105610 ) * on Sunday February 01, 2004 @03:13AM (#8149445)
    OK, the majority is generally happy that RealAudio has been ditched. Great, I dislike the spyware-ridden load of crap too -- so I used mplayer like all sane people. Now they switch to WMA9. Not sure why they didn't go with a format that isn't open, but whatever, mplayer will handle it...

    But no: "Cannot find codec for audio format 0xA" and mplayer bails. Many hours of googling, trolling mplayer-dev/user and all I can come up with is:

    a number of others having the same problem,

    an offhanded redirect to the mplayer FAQ (which, while an interesting read, doesn't actually address this problem),

    a dated discussion about how MS had made life very difficult for developers to hook into the WMA9 dlls as they had in the past,

    and a story from a ripe.org admin who had concluded that WMA9 streaming audio could not be decoded by a non-MS player and had switched to the older WMA8 audio codec instead.

    I've got MPlayer 1.0pre3, and /usr/lib/win32/wma9dmod.dll (along with the rest of the "essential.tar.bz2" codecs) from the mplayer web site.

    If someone has *actually* listened to a wma CarTalk feed and can tell me where to find the magic codec I will be a very happy camper. I will even accept a necessary minimum of abuse for not finding the solution on my own.

  • I only use WM because (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Usagi_yo ( 648836 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @03:21AM (#8149473)
    Honestly because Windows knows all the ins and outs of its OS and undoubtably makes it difficult for 3rd party applications to run well.

    I've never been satisfied with Quicktime or RealAudio and never realy have had problems with WM player.

    Thats the way it is and I believe M$ should have been broken up so that 3rd party apps at least have a chance to be competative.

    As it is right now, 3rd party apps targetted by Microsoft simply cannot compete and make money and I don't have time in my life to wrestle with products continously being sabatoged by MS, crippled ware or little used variants.

  • Format wins for Microsoft (Score:5, Informative)

    by robla ( 4860 ) * on Sunday February 01, 2004 @04:14AM (#8149628) Homepage Journal
    ...are just that: wins for Microsoft.

    I'm not going to be an apologist for RealNetworks past actions. RealNetworks is a big enough company, that Jamie Zawinski's quote [jwz.org] "[G]reat things are accomplished by small groups of people who are driven, who have unity of purpose. The more people involved, the slower and stupider their union is." I'll admit we've done slow and stupid things. However, there are certain things that can only be done by big companies, no matter how slow and stupid, which is why I haven't written a similar rant.

    However, I'd like to point out that, in the "slow and stupid" vein, we're slowly getting better. The RealPlayer 10 beta isn't perfect, but it's better, and I imagine that things will be better in the final release.

    Moreover, we've got a lot of really great things going on in the Helix Community [helixcommunity.org]. We've got the Helix Player [helixcommunity.org] for Linux, which just the won Best Open Source Project award at LinuxWorld [realnetworks.com]. That means that if there's something that annoys you about it, you can fix it. It's based on Gtk, and the engine code is all cross-platform, so someone could theoretically port it to Windows even.

    So, we're trying. I'm hoping that folks could cut us a little slack. I'm hoping that the Linux folks out there could help us change Car Talk's mind, since Windows Media is a pretty Linux-hostile format.

    Thanks
    Rob Lanphier
    Helix Troublemaker [helixcommunity.org]
    RealNetworks

  • Onthemedia (Score:3, Interesting)

    by _aa_ ( 63092 ) <[j] [at] [uaau.ws]> on Sunday February 01, 2004 @09:36AM (#8150430) Homepage Journal
    The weekend NPR show On The Media [wnyc.org] recently added a free mp3 format download of their show. I think many npr shows are reluctant to do this because they have an alternative income source by selling mp3s at audible.com [audible.com].

    Perhaps the recent significant contribution to npr by the McDonald's widow, and president Bush's new found appreciation for the NEA, has loosened the noose a little.

    You can find mp3 streams of various npr affiliates via shoutcast.com [shoutcast.com], but I think we would all love to have a national stream, and individual shows in an open format.

    The only way to get this is to A) Pledge, and B) Suggest it.

    It would also be nice to download official Nova episodes in an open format.

  • Submitted via email to Car Talk: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wowbagger ( 69688 ) on Sunday February 01, 2004 @09:40AM (#8150458) Homepage Journal
    I sumitted the following to Car Talk via their e-mail submission form:
    You are 100% correct on your assessment of Real Networks - they do everything in their power to trick you into giving them money for what ought to be free.

    However, going to Windows Media in response is like saying "Yugo's are poorly made, so I will buy a Trebant" - Microsoft does everything in THEIR power to FORCE you into paying them.

    Why not offer your show as a MP3 stream? That way, rather than being forced to use Real or Microsoft, we can use whatever we want to!

    And while you are at it, a point I've been wanting to mail you about for some time: I have an MP3 player in my car - that way, I can start my music, and then NOT MESS WITH IT for the duration of the trip - allowing me to keep my hands on the wheel and my eyes and mind on the road. When I am on a long trip, what more natural thing to want to listen to than Car Talk. However, since I cannot a) be assured of finding them being broadcast on a radio station where I am (usually should I find it I do so just as the station fades into the noise), b) download the files from your site (stream yes, download no), and c) play the files I get (since my MP3 player does not play Real or WMA), it makes it almost impossible to do so.

    Again, I applaud your decision to drop Real - but please consider using MP3's instead of WMA - dropping Real for WMA because you don't like Real's tactics is like changing your motor oil to somebody else's used oil.


    And NO, I am not going to suggest they use Ogg - yes, it would be free, MP3s not, but I'm trying to stay on-point that WMA is bad, not muddy the issue with a format that Click and Clack may never have heard of, and certainly a large portion of their audience has not heard of.

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