Congress May Force Revealing of Car Computer Secrets 683
marksven writes "The Seattle Post-Intelligencer is reporting that there is a bill with 86 co-sponsors in the House to force automakers to open up their proprietary interfaces to car computers. Small car repair shops are more and more becoming locked out of the repair business because most late model cars can only be fixed by accessing their computers with codes that are secret."
a few cars have been reverse engineered (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Informative)
WRONG! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:3, Informative)
tell me again how this is different cince I just shot down your entire argument.
Re:volvo? (Score:2, Informative)
Volvo, for instance, in their 850/S70/C70 line, it's under the change tray, right by your right (if you have a left-hand-drive car) knee.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Informative)
Not correct. I can make unlimited copies of DVDs without any access to codes - just as I can make copies of a text written in German without being able to read that language. Mass bootlegging of DVDs happens this way already.
CSS is all about controlling who gets to make DVD players. It does nothing to prevent copying.
Re:volvo? (Score:2, Informative)
if i recall correctly, that was a concept car designed "by women for women". A bit sexist perhaps; certainly ridiculous - but hey, go girl power.
Volvo explicitly stated in the article that they had neither the desire nor the intent to ever place that vehicle into production.
These codes aren't secret... (Score:5, Informative)
The "secret" diagnostic codes are published. The Chilton's repair guides for cars list the error codes for each car and manufacturer. Also, the factory service manuals for those cars have the codes and their meanings listed.
I love Cadillacs, though, because you can press "OFF" and "WARMER" on the Climate Control panel and it will list the codes on the display there! Then you can do the repairs at home yourself!
You can also go buy a $500.00 Snap-on ALDL analyzer (Assembly Line Diagnostic Link) and it will list the codes too. The newer vehicles call this OBD-2 (Onboard Diagnostics, V2).
Finally, there is some software out there (Payware, IIRC) that will list the codes on a PC or laptop, but you need to build an RS-232 to ALDL level converter for it (or buy the software with the appropriate dongle).
Too slow... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:5, Informative)
Perhaps you missed the whole DeCSS [harvard.edu] issue? "Without licensed DVD players for Linux and other operating systems, an entire class of computer users is completely cut off from viewing DVDs."
It is not entirely closed! (Score:1, Informative)
secret.
Take CAT for instance, it is true that there
is a proprietary protocol for diagnostic but
they also broadcast a lot of information on
either J1587 or J1939. GM broadcasts diagnostic
on J1850. Daimler broadcast on J1587 and J1939.
The information on these protocols are easy to get.
I write diagnostic for trucks and I don't need
any proprietary information except for the tire pressure controller.
Most engines, ABS and transmissions use the
SAE standards.
Re:Lies, I tell you. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Lies, I tell you. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Lies, I tell you. (Score:5, Informative)
Every manufacturer has proprietary networks built into the car of which OBD-II is a tiny emulation layer. Its designed for emissions testing and emissions related codes, nothing else.
You can't diagnose why your power locks aren't working with it, you can't diagnose why your HVAC controls aren't working. You can't read exhaust gas temperatures, or any other direct sensor outputs. You can't bleed ABS pumps with it, etc, etc, etc.
There are VERY few models you can get that sort of information about. Volkswagen/Audi group cars have some diagnostic software available, but virtually 100% of the information about what you can access and what sort of tests you can run have been reverse engineered, and is very incomplete. VAG also recently changed their protocols for newer cars to block those systems from working.
You may have watched mechanics sweat this stuff, but some of us sweat this stuff directly. This is coming from the direct experience of someone who both repairs cars and works for a internationally ranked professional racing team.
Simple Solution (Score:1, Informative)
Re:I really miss.... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Solution (Score:5, Informative)
Check Engine light (Score:4, Informative)
Cant remember the comedian, but oh well. Seriously though, certain brands of cars(cough cough Ford) are known for having the check engine light come on when a sensor in the car is being pissy, maybe cause it was cold or your wheel was slipping, even if there is nothing wrong with your engine. Once it comes on, the only way to turn it off is to take it to a mechanic who will charge you 60$ to reset the light and tell you he doesnt see any problems. Or you can just disconnect the battery for minute, but you lose your radio station presets. I don't see why this is such a big deal though. Seems like its pretty easy to get a code reader [patriot.net]. Hell the base model is less than 200$, might be good to get one just to play with. Not to mention all the codes can be looked up right here [actron.com]. For 25$ a year you can even use AllData [alldata.com] to diagnose problems with your car based on the codes, and be updated on service and recall bulletins. Interesting note at the bottom though: Note: Currently, information is available for Model Years 1982 to 2002. 2003 Model Year information is scheduled to be released this winter. Unfortunately, information for Honda, Acura and BMW is not available to consumers through ALLDATA DIY by request of the manufacturers.
Re:Solution (Score:3, Informative)
Value of the "secret data" is overrated (Score:4, Informative)
I left a 10 year career in auto repair (part of that post-OBD), where my specialty was driveability and electrical. The truly skilled technicians understand the system and don't necessarily depend on a particular tool to get their work done. An old-style analog oscilloscope is more valuable to a tech than any proprietary scan tool. The challenge is the diminishing number of techs that would know what to do with one.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Informative)
Gee, and here I thought it would be the presense of a _turbocharger_. Second post already that thinks a turbo is a piece of software rather than hardware. I don't know of anyone marketing a car as being turbocharged who isn't using a physical device called a turbocharger. [wikipedia.org]
Re:Solution (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I really miss.... (Score:2, Informative)
Unfortunately the insurance killed me...$350/month. I had to get rid of it.
I guess this is why they didn't sell like hotcakes.
God I miss that car!
Re:Solution (Score:3, Informative)
Most cars will set off some other indicator when you do that. I know a guy that pulled the bulb on a Probe before he sold it. The airbag light started blinking endlessly. Pulled that (smart) and the door chime wouldn't shut off. Cut the wiring to that and it finally stopped all the warnings, but some day somebody with that Probe is going to wonder why they have no door chime and why two lights don't light up when the car turns on.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:0, Informative)
Anyway, if I had gotten it serviced outside of the dealer I would have been out of a car for more than a day, would have had to pay (as this was covered by warranty), and I wouldn't have had any large corporation to complain to if there was shitty work done.
Free rental car, free labor/parts, and less than 24 hours later I had my car.
Re:About 10 years too late (Score:2, Informative)
I spent ten years between 1988 and 1998 working as an apprentice and technician for automotive dealerships in Australia.
Early generations of onboard diagnostic systems were relatively simple. Access to the codes that were generated by signals responding in an odd manner or operating outide of tolerance was usually a simple matter of bridging a connection somewhere and using an LED in series with a resistor to read them, or some other similar manner. I have books, produced by third parties, full of the codes that are generated by the hundreds of vehicles out there. Access to these codes has never been a problem.
Later generations have changed all that. The diagnostics now have some very cool abilities like the ability to monitor and record multiple IO signals in realtime. This in turn requires the use of the manufacturers own diagnostic equipment which also doubles as the code reader. Generally speaking, simple methods to access those codes are no longer provided except where the manufacturers are required to.
One thing however has not changed, and that is what the codes tell us. They are nothing more than a compass that points the technician in a direction. Specific parts of the system still requires thorough testing to locate the actual cause any problems. If a code is registered that identifies a particular sensor input as faulty, the fault itself may well lie somewhere in the system other than in the sensor itself.
Re:WRONG! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Nothing is stopping you... (Score:4, Informative)
reverse engineering is not the right terminology (Score:3, Informative)
Re:shade tree mech (Score:2, Informative)
Re:WTF!?!? (Score:2, Informative)
At least on newer Nissans, you can program the ECU via the OBD-II port, but only using their proprietary Consult-II device. I'd love to see someone reverse-engineer that puppy and write some software to enable Consult-II functionality on a laptop or Palm.
Re:Nothing is stopping you... (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, they do check these things (this tends to vary wildly from state to state). Under the hood, there is a description of all of the original emmissions equipment. It's also in print. It's pretty easy to see what's been done, especially when there's a big-ass carburatur sitting on top of your intake header. I'm not quite sure what the details are -- but one way or the other, it's gotta pass emmissions (including a rolling dyno in an an increasing number of states). It's getting difficult to get old cars (or new cars with old equipment) to meet new-car standards.
If you've got an old car that you like to drive as you restore -- stay out of VA. They check everything. For example, if you have foglights, they have to work or the wiring needs to be cut all the way back to the harness. Lame.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:3, Informative)
I have an Integra with a B18B1 engine, and I've always wondered what people were complaining about when talking about servicing computerized cars; I've never had to do any work at the dealer, and I've done all the maintenance required: valve clearance adjustments, timing belt changes, etc.
Re:shade tree mech (Score:3, Informative)
Trivial [troublecodes.net]. You just need to spend a dollar or two for the interface. Various places have a Win or Linux program for free. Others even show you how to write your own interface. All you need is the cable.
Friend of mine has one, and I fixed a random overheating problem by finding out cyl 2 & 6 were misfiring. Cleared the idiot light, and saved myself about $500 in new waterpump and troubleshooting.
Re:a few cars have been reverse engineered (Score:2, Informative)
you can pull almost any engine code already (Score:3, Informative)
Re:This great! (Score:1, Informative)
You can build your own interface with one transistor, a couple of diodes and a few resistors.
Also, the "undocumented" codes are well documented in the SAE Recommended Practice for Diagnostic Codes. All of the automotive companies I've worked for have used this.
The protocol (whether it be ISO-K, J1850 etc) are all covered by SAE and/or ISO standards. J1979 is a good place to start.
IT'S NOT ABOUT CHOICE EITHER! (Score:3, Informative)
Scan Tools are available to everyone (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Solution (Score:3, Informative)
Car companies should not abuse their powers by making proprietary codes nobody can read. Otherwise, I would have had to go to the dealer, and probably pay $200 for someone to do the same damn thing I did myself for $8.