Congress May Force Revealing of Car Computer Secrets 683
marksven writes "The Seattle Post-Intelligencer is reporting that there is a bill with 86 co-sponsors in the House to force automakers to open up their proprietary interfaces to car computers. Small car repair shops are more and more becoming locked out of the repair business because most late model cars can only be fixed by accessing their computers with codes that are secret."
Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
"I think it's an illegal monopoly. If you don't have the codes you can't watch the disc."
Yet there's a law that protects the MPAA from having to give this code to the rest of the world. It's called the DMCA. It stops you from circumventing copy-protection.
Why aren't there any lawmakers backing the public on DVD encryption? See here [slashdot.org].
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
With the codes to your DVD, you can make unlimited copies, and do anything and everything with them.
Try doing that to your car when you get it's codes.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's more leverage for us if it's already written into law.
It is quite simple (Score:2, Insightful)
The entertainment industry (MPAA/RIAA) has lots of money, power and influence.
The automobile indudstry has even more money, power and influence.
The technology industry has comparatively less money, power and influence.
About 10 years too late (Score:5, Insightful)
They should have always required opening up of these interfaces. The owner pretty much has to take the word of a very small select group of "in the know" mechanics on what condition their car is in. And we all know how trustworthy the average local mechanic/dealer mechanic is (do a google for Jiffy Lube, Sears, etc, and auto mechanics and lawsuits)
Then I recall my own wonderful personal experience. I had engine fluctuation issues in a turbo charged car. 15 trips to the dealer (under warranty) and replacement of virtually ever sensor and the car's computer failed to rectify the sporadic condition. The car had a computer interface, and it was telling them... well, I don't know what it was telling them - I couldn't access the interface....
Long story short though, one day, the engine started having RPM fluctuations while idling, so I popped open the hood and, since I hadn't been running long nor very hard, decided to take a quick look at the intercooler fluid level. I just happened to notice as I pulled out the intercooler cap that the float bob sensor attached to said cap was sunk to the bottom, even though the intercooler level was fine. I bypassed this sensor and all was fine for the next 100K miles. Odds are I'd have found this more quickly if I could have hooked up a computer to the interface to diagnose the problem while it was happening.
Point here has more to do with than just cars. (Score:5, Insightful)
The principle point here is: Does the public have the right to access and repair of their own violation property they have paid for? This can readily be applied to almost any manufactured good in the future. Let's face it, how many things do you buy anymore that aren't controlled by computer code?
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:3, Insightful)
Where the profit is ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Election Year (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, how many legal car repair shops do you think there are? A million is most likely a conservative figure. The car computer legislation is happening because there are a lot of people in the car repair business, and have been in the car repair business for generations. But, suddenly (last few years) they've been unable to fix cars because they don't know the secret codes for the cars' computers.
This isn't "I want everything, like MP3s and DVDs, for free". This is "I want to fsck-ing survive here.
Re:Good! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the manufacturers spent millions of dollars designing parts and *didn't* get patents on those parts, then it's their own damn fault...and they have also failed their shareholders.
If they had patented their expensively-designed parts, they would have zero problems with opening the specs for third-party repair shops and could still prevent third-party replica parts.
Solution (Score:5, Insightful)
It's perfectly reasonable to, once they've given you the quote, to also tell you what all is wrong with your car. Tell them you'd need to think about it, as if this is going to put a bit of crimp in your budget for this month, and say you'll get back to them as soon as you've worked out the details.
Trot down to your favorite small shop mechanic and ask him how much he'd charge to do exactly the job that the other guys said needed to get done. You tell him that the dealership has already given you a quote for $X, and the problem has been diagnosed by them. Odds are he'll undercut them. If not, just go back to the dealership... you're SOL.
If your mechanic guy has offered to do the repairs, then you go back to the dealership and tell them that you just can't swing that kind of money this month. Then you take your car to little guy's shop and have it repaired there.
Funny thing is, if enough people did this, the little guys would learn what the diagnosis codes meant because they'd get customers coming in telling them what was already wrong, and the mechanics could start matching up codes to real problems.
Now the question is, is the above method, using strictly social engineering, still considered a violation of the DMCA?
Obvious Answer? (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the whole complaint about the recent complexity of cars; it is government mandated and consumer demanded. There are requirements for fuel efficiency and emissions. A simple 4 stroke engine can only be so effecient and so clean. To meet regulations, cars need to incorporate exhaust gas recirculation, variable cam timing, complex variable spark timing, catylitic converters, and a host of other complexities. Consumers want climate control, adaptive suspension, 17 way power adjustable seats, power cupholders, remote buttons for everything, heated everything, and performance, but they expect their cars to have the simplicity of an air cooled VW?
Re:Small car repair shops - and my car (Score:3, Insightful)
DMCA isn't quite all that (Score:2, Insightful)
When your DVD player breaks you just plop down another $40, do you really want to pay several hundred dollers to get to the nearest dealership and then plop down $20000?
With the older cars, either they didn't have computer codes, or the computer codes were fairly easy to figure out and published in the Chiltons manual. Now the manufacturers are trying to keep the codes as a trade secret so that you have to go to the dealer.
The net result is that it just isn't quite the same game using the DMCA to protect the cars codes. Next time my car breaks down and I have to bumb a ride 300 miles just to get to a phone, I want to know that I can get my car fixed there too. I want to have a prayer to fix the car on the road if I have a Chiltons.
Change two words... (Score:4, Insightful)
"You don't want technology to destroy competitiveness," said Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., who offered one of the bills. "There's no reason
and change two words, you get:
"You don't want technology to destroy competitiveness," said Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., who offered one of the bills. "There's no reason
I wonder how Sen. Graham voted on some other issue?
Re:Small car repair shops - and my car (Score:5, Insightful)
It has little to do with quality. A old-school mechanic with 30+ years of tinkering has considerably more knowledge of automotive systems than some 19 year old fresh out of Lincon Tech. I'd trust my car to the old-timer before the new guy. Fact is, while the interface may be computer controlled, the engine itself is the same basic hardware that it was 100 years ago. The car computer can't "hear" bearing wrap like a human can. Sure, it'll turn the check-engine light on and give you an error code.
My point: putting the old-timers and the grease monkeys out of business by restricting their ability to solve the simple problems (like having to reset a computer-controlled a/c system, they need the codes), you take out the segement of population most able to solve the really hard problems.
As for your point about the range of cars on the road....I've never worked on a Dell before. But I have worked on an IBM, a Gateway, an HP, a Tandy, a Mac, a Swan, a Compaq, and a Digital. Does that mean I'm not qualified to work on a Dell?
This isn't that close to copy protections (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't speak a word of Polish, but given enough time I could make an exact copy of a book written in Polish.
DVD encryption does not prevent copying, it prevents people from watching them with players that the DVDCA hasn't made any money off of.
LK
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Fuel injectors, by the way, are not developed by automakers any more. Automakers go to someone and say hey, we need an injector with these dimensions that flows this much fuel and runs off this voltage, and they get a part back, they sign a contract agreeing to buy so many of them and to put however many of them into cars, and that's it. Furthermore a fuel injector is a dog-simple item which can be made better simply by throwing more money at it for better materials - it's just a solenoid valve. They usually run on 12 volts and they open and close in response to an electrical signal which is pulsed once for each opening. They are usually run at a single given pressure by the OEM and you can "trick" them (and your computer) by using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, which is a popular way of doing a cheap turbo installation. As the boost rises, the fuel pressure rises, and more fuel is delivered. The next step up is to use a box that takes over fuel management for the computer, and/or tweaks the signal from the computer, and the final step is to replace the car's computer entirely. All of this stuff is done outside of the injector. The injector, as I have previously stated, is a simple device and high-rate injectors can be had for little more than OEM parts. Rebuilt OEM (270cc/min, I think, maybe it was 230?) for my car were $69, you can get new 370cc/min injectors for about $100 each. So Territo is full of horse shit, whoever he is. (Too lazy to RTFA, sorry, I'd rather spend my time ranting.)
Also most of these parts are not complicated. No one owns the facts, so you just stick a thread pitch gauge in the hole, and measure the diameter, and you know what size the thing should be; You can hook up the part and test it using calibration equipment, another (known) sensor (which is calibration equipment of course), or you can build a new one from the specifications. Data sheets are available for automotive sensors, and factory service manuals will tell you the expected range of response from a sensor, most of which are resistance-based.
Automakers quite simply want to hang onto the lucrative service market. Dealers charge more for service than practically anyone else, except for very high end establishments that specialize on working on exotic cars. For example there's a joint called Canepa's in Santa Cruz that bought, sold, and serviced rolls, lamborghini, ferrari and so on. But if you go to a dealer for your ordinary vehicle you generally pay 10-50% over the average service station for both parts and labor, and you don't necessarily get better service unless you bring in a really special car, which they tend to take seriously.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:2, Insightful)
What a lame excuse. Independent mechanics duplicating major componets? Can you imagnine that? I'd like to see the day when Joe's Garage will replace your busted on-board computer for half the price, made from old 486's and playstation componets.
Oh well, I'm glad to hear that someone is doing something about this.
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Insightful)
To achieve all of this, computers had to be put in the cars. A car without computers wouldn't be competitive in today's market, and it wouldn't be able to produce high power outputs while staying within today's mandated pollution limits.
Re:I really miss.... (Score:2, Insightful)
The millions of dollars spent perfecting these components are needed to meet emissions standards so they can continue to sell cars in the US.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple: Maybe they would get help from customers, maybe not. If they got help from customers, then their cars would be a little bit better (though probably not much), and their customers would be a little bit happier.
But by keeping all this stuff secret, they create a monopoly on service and their dealerships can charge $200 for something that Joe Smith at your local garage would charge $120 for.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
But it's not.
This is about ERROR CODES not ignition and fuel maps. This about being able to plug something into my car and have it tell me that there's a problem with XXXXX.
That doesn't say shit about the design of that part. They just want access to the same diagnostic codes as the dealer. Right now manufactuers are only required to make a tiny subset of these codes availible.
The automakers are just whining about their "intellectual property" because they think they can get away with it since the vast majority of the public doesn't know the difference between a diagnostic code, and the actual program code itself.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone needs to let them in on a little IBM/Apple secret [apple.com]
Re:I really miss.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Fortunately, people like you are in a very small minority. I, for one, prefer my air to be breatheable.
Re:Competition, lower prices, better service. (Score:3, Insightful)
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
This is the mandate that gives them right to publish laws to ensure fair competition. It has been quite well tested in reference to monopolies and allows them to pass any kind of laws to this affect.
Did history teach us nothing? (Score:5, Insightful)
US Airline industry
failing miserably ..
terrorists ..
Congress bails out whole industry ..
Industry still hasn't fixed business model
MPAA / RIAA
financially in trouble ..
blame pirates, hackers, p2p..
Lawmakers pass all sorts of laws, Judges pass all sorts of sentences..
Industry still hasn't fixed business model
US Automakers
future seems uncertain ... floating 0% financing schemes
blame the forced opening of proprietary interfaces, blame car-computer hackers
Congress soon to bail out troubling industry ?? (or at least the retirement funds)??
Industry still hasn't fixed business model
Why even have codes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Look, if they want to continue to compete with other mechanics then they should do so by providing service as good as my independent does.
Re:I really miss.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Modern muscle cars are more powerful off the showroom floor than those of 40 years ago. The horsepower ratings are fairly honest. In 1960, 10% horsepower exaggeration was officially allowed by some professional organization (The ASME, IIRC).
Re:Patents prefered particulerly (Score:3, Insightful)
We like patents on mechanical devices that can be built, demonstrated as a physical object, and are noticably innovative. (such as noticable improvements in fuel injection systems etc.)
We hate patents on software, business methods, and anything else which cannot be built or demonstrated as a physical object. (such as one-click purchasing as in Amazon, or patents for things for which no prototype exists)
Amen! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:3, Insightful)
Check out the homepage for the Automotive Service Councils of CA [ascca.com]. Under 'Legislation', they explain what bills they're lobbying for or against. So the real answer, if you want to protect something you think is important, hire a bunch of lawyers to take politicians out to lunch once a week. Otherwise, you ain't got no hope.
Re:Good! (Score:2, Insightful)
They are designing a product that functions in such a way that competitors can not service them.
So they are locking out competitors in the service arena. How is that not abusing their positions (as they are using their commanding position as a manufacturer to force service buisness)?
-s
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe a few cars from back then claimed more horsepower than what you can get today. (I kind of doubt it with cars like the Dodge Viper on the market). Keep in mind that horsepower numbers were inflated back then, and the drivetrains and suspensions were not capable of utilizing the horsepower that they had.
If you read any car magazine, there are plenty of aftermarket shops that do modify today's cars, and they manage to keep them legal as well.
Re:Solution (Score:3, Insightful)
That is why having the operational codes are important, to identify the problem and clear the flag.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:3, Insightful)
At 29,999, it damned well better be free - Most cars with that few miles are still under warranty. I still get free parts/labor on my used Honda, with 89,000 miles.
The point is not about warranty work - that has to be done by the dealer anyway. The point is non-warranty work that *ought* to be able to be done by any mechanic. How will you feel when you have to have your valves adjusted at 100,000 miles, and the only place that can do it is the Saturn dealer, who will charge twice as much as a comparibly experienced independant mechanic? The only reason that a normal mechanic can't work on these cars is because of manufacturer lockout.
I keep waiting for someone to realize that there is a hobbyist market out here that would love to have cars that are both modern and easy to work on. Honda seemed to have this right for about 10 years (great cars from about 1989-2000) - specifications were well-documented, computers were easily hackable, and many parts were interchangable. Alas, they seemed to start moving away from this in 2001 with the new K series engines. Anyone want to help me produce a Gnu/CAR under the GPL?
Re:Good! (Score:2, Insightful)
You want the the government out of private business? Fine. We can start with eliminating corporate charters, patents, copyrights, trademarks...let's see how the auto manufacturers like that.
No? Then if we're going to build a legal infrastructure that makes corporate behemoths like GM possible, we also need to build in governering factors.
Re:Good! (Score:3, Insightful)
As for the right to have work done at a non-dealer location, I do believe you have the right. The purchase of a vehicle is different from that of say software. In the case of the vehicle, you do truly own the car (not bringing "leasing into this picture). I can take that car and sell off individual parts, rent it out, modify it, etc... without prior consent from the manufacturer. We must not confuse the car with other forms of purchase, say an end user license where you essentially buy certain rights with lots of restrictions. The car is owned by the individual. Now the one area that I'm not positive on is the right for an individual to copy a part. I don't know if an after market company needs to license the ability to produce a part or if they just "copy" the part. I'll have to ask the next time I go to the parts store (hopefully not for a while with relatively new vehicles 2002 & 2004).
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:3, Insightful)
As far as I know, there has never been anything stopping some enterprising commercial software company from obtaining a license to do CSS decryption, developing a player application for Linux, and selling it.
"A DVD player for Linux" does not have to mean "a DVD player under [GPL|BSD|otherwise [Ff]ree] software licensng"...
Re:I really miss.... (Score:3, Insightful)
OTOH, your custom Lincoln engine has mods that may have been too expensive for a car manufacturer to put in any high-volume production car, old or modern. You can't take that as an example that proves that computers are worthless. Maybe the computers achieve the same goals at a lower cost than fancy machining and manifolds. Production engines made for the general market also need to satisfy more goals than one put in a moster truck; they need to run quiet and idle smoothly, for example.
Maybe you should try again, comparing a stock 73 Lincoln motor vs. a 2004 Cadillac Northstar, for example.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:3, Insightful)
An attack on a fundamental right (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
When something goes wrong, what happens? You get a big triangle on the display and a "service vehicle" message.
What the hell?
Why not put up some diagnostic info on the screen? "ABS Failure in Braking System", "O2 Sensor clogged", "MG2 - Generator Failure", etc? Maybe even a nice like "star trekky" diagram pointing to the component, or the area of the car the problem is located at.
But that would make it possible for other people to diagnose problems, and possibly fix them. Toyota doesn't want that.
They want people to bring their cars into the dealership for a few reasons - first, because they make the money on (out of warrantee) repairs. Secondly, because the dealership reports faults back to Toyota, who can then investigate the problem to determine if they had a bad run of components, or there was a design defect.
N.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:2, Insightful)
Mapmakers routinely include small false items on their maps to prevent copying - it is nearly as hard to identify and remove the one made up town on the map of the US you intend to copy as it is to go out and make your own map. Perhaps this could work in this situation.
Re:Nothing is stopping you... (Score:4, Insightful)
Many states that do inspections that involve emissions checks are using the computer interface to have the car itself report how clean its running. This, IMHO, is the reason opening up those standards aint ever going to be allowed to fly. If its all open and anyone can code stuff for it how long do you think it will be before the automotive equivalent of script-kiddies are offering downloadable patches that cause any vehicle to lie about its emissions or set it into "emissions test mode" where the computer stubbornly refuses to run the engine in any way that causes the vehicle to fail a test that is still performed by sticking a sensor in the tailpipe.
Only thieves need access to car computers (Score:4, Insightful)
Reputable people don't need access to their car's computers. If you want access you must be a thief of some sort. Oh, some Free Car/Open Car hippy here will whine "But I want to be able to repair my own car," or "I want to be able to hire a third party to repair my car." Yeah, right. Most people can't fix their own cars, having the ability to open the hood and work on their car is totally worthless. Letting the millions of thieves in just so that a few freaks can try (and probably fail) to fix their own cars is unacceptable. Only the original manufacturer can really fix it. Fortunately I think we can expect to see EDLA (End Driver License Agreements) that will make this nice and clear to everyone.
Re:An attack on a fundamental right (Score:3, Insightful)
Or may you just believe that sometimes individual rights must be sacrificed for the good of the community.
It's the same type of ideology that leads to crazy things like the public roads that we drive our cars on in the first place and it's the reason all that expensive emissions equipment is on your car in the first place.
Society as whole has an interest in seeing that cars are properly maintained for both safety and emissions reasons. If you can't understand that you probably need a refresher that as a citizen of this country you have both rights and RESPONSIBILITIES.
Sometimes the needs of society are more important than your own "intellectual property", just as they as sometimes more important than your own rights to real property. Do a search on "eminent domain."
To anyone... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's not the reason, not at all. Discounting potential damage and erroneous warranty claims, car makers must also adhere by federal law to an enourmous body of regulation involving emmissions and performance standards. These computers are an integral component of meeting those goals. Letting third parties alter algorithms and parameters conceivably puts them at risk.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
I work in vehicle development -- electronic braking systems.
Our module interfaces directly with the engine controller, as we request a torque reduction during traction control events.
It is entirely untrue that it takes a "mere afternoon" to build the calibration data. Testing is required at different altitudes and in different climates. You'll find auto testing going on everywhere from Wanaka, New Zealand (for wintery conditions in the middle of Michigan's summer) to Borrego Springs, California... Or up in Arvidsjaur, Sweden when it's -40. A dyno and a diagnostic tool won't do much to simulate these climates and altitude variations. Throw a trailer on the vehicle and you'd never sell a car that you validated using the method you describe. Depending on the maturity of the engine and the system as a whole (including sensors, fuel delivery systems, etc.) it takes at least a year, probably more like two years, to develop an engine calibration.
Red herring on the part of car makers. (Score:3, Insightful)