Congress May Force Revealing of Car Computer Secrets 683
marksven writes "The Seattle Post-Intelligencer is reporting that there is a bill with 86 co-sponsors in the House to force automakers to open up their proprietary interfaces to car computers. Small car repair shops are more and more becoming locked out of the repair business because most late model cars can only be fixed by accessing their computers with codes that are secret."
I don't get Congress. (Score:5, Interesting)
But when it comes to open-standards for automobiles, they're all for it.
Why won't they make up their minds?
OSS needed! (Score:1, Interesting)
This has been done before (Score:5, Interesting)
Ended up having to make it possible for the competition to get our service tools, but I don't remember that we were required to make them available cheaply or quickly. Not sure how things are there today; knowing GE they probably would solve the problem by buying out the competitor.
This really isn't much different than open-source vs closed-source though, is it...if the person selling it wants to lock you out of the internals, well, your choices include not buying from them.
This is big brother for cars (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:3, Interesting)
Payola (Score:0, Interesting)
l8,
AC
Preach on, (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Interesting)
From the article;
>Automakers are fighting the legislation; they believe the real goal is to obtain proprietary "calibration codes" that are the blueprints for how parts are made. With that information, Territo said, independent mechanics and parts manufacturers could duplicate major components such as fuel injectors that automakers have spent millions of dollars developing.
So maybe its the same issue. A group wants to control their property by using technology which locks things up.
Will this proposed law contradict the DMCA? (Score:1, Interesting)
Small car repair shops - and my car (Score:1, Interesting)
Good For Me (Score:4, Interesting)
Lies, I tell you. (Score:2, Interesting)
These are lies. You can get all the required codes from the vehicle's repair manual (~$120). You can also use Google for this same purpose. The OBD interface is standard, so you don't need a new one for every model car.
I've been watching mechanics sweat this stuff since the early 80's. Meanwhile, most of their problems arise from not updating their diagnostic equipment because it costs money.
Aside from the other reasons, I think with technology getting more and more complicated in newer vehicles, it might be a good thing to see the 'general' mechanic become a thing of yesterday. I would rather have someone licensed and very experienced and specialized in working on just my make of car. That way, they know all the quirks and bugs related to specific models. A general mechanic will just know the basics of every car, but little specialization in an area that affects his value to me.
Keep in mind, when I say general mechanic, I am speaking of a guy who's got his certifications and is good at what he does. Before you folks get frothy towards me, remind yourself that the big general mechanic shops include Pep Boys and other parts stores that have mechanics in a shop on the side. They do not specialize in a particular car or specific service.
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I often think that if you could get one car executive to take a 'chance'...and try the old idea behind the original GTO's and later other muscle cars...throw a monster engine into a decent body of a car...keep the interior minimalist...with real perfomance, and keep the price reasonable. I gotta think these things would sell like hotcakes...
Oh well...as long as we're dreaming here...I'd also like a pony...
Check Engine Blinks (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:3, Interesting)
MPAA == US organisation. Quite a lot of carmakers != US firms.
See the difference? One one hand the US congress wants to protect the "intelectuall property" of americans, on the other hand it wants to open the "intelectual property" of other people (non US) to the carmechanics in the US... and possible to carmanufacturers in the US as well, but I think that might be an unintended sideeffect.
While I see how this bill might benefit the small autoshops in the US (and possible elsewhere if this catches on), I feel that a more ideal solution would be if the carmanufacturers could agree on one common interface to use. Won't happen off course.
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I foresee some argument along the lines of "If we do this, <insert terrrorist/criminal organization here> will be able to soup-up the performance of their cars, and escape capture.
People working on their cars at low level resembles people working on Linux From Scratch, with the difference being that a core dump is only embarrassing, whereas an engine becoming several hundred flying sub-engines at the I95/I495 interchange, known with affection as 'the mixing bowl', could have substantial costs...
I hope the safety gestapo doesn't win the argument.
Competition, lower prices, better service. (Score:4, Interesting)
Cars are something that are easily understood by most people. You buy a car and you want to get it fixed but the place that fixed your old car can't fix this car because the car manufacturer won't let the mechanic read the computer information in YOUR car.
So, you'll have to pay the prices that the car manufacturer wants you to pay to get your car fixed.
I think will be an easy bill to pass. The average person will see it as a way of saving money.
This already happened (Score:2, Interesting)
MS APIs? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Lies, I tell you. (Score:2, Interesting)
I had a bit of a scraping sound in my truck about a year ago, that sounded like a brake caliper had gotten out of alignment and was rubbing. So I took it to a Monro, they said my brakes were fine, but it sounded like it might be in the rear end, something that was more complicated than they were used to doing. darius The car was out of warranty, but my first instinct was to go to a GMC dealer to get it looked at -- they took the car for a day and told me that it was definitely the rear end, which would have to be replaced for $1500.
Since that was significant, I sought out a second opinion, a "general" mechanic of which you speak. He took the truck for a day, and found out that the problem was that the wheel bearings were pitted. Then he discovered that there was still some minor scraping, and had to replace a bearing in the rear end. Total cost: $300.
The dealer would have charged $1500, and not actually fixed the problem!! Until there's evidence that dealers use their "insider" knowledge of their brand of automobiles to provide better service, it will be a shame if the independent mechanic disappears.
Fair use (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Lies, I tell you. (Score:2, Interesting)
My father and uncle own an auto-repair shop in Brooklyn, my father being the head mechanic and the one that runs all the diagnostic equipment. He's been running into this issue for years now, and whenever he needs the codes to access the computers of a car, he either has to pay the manufacturer for the DVD/CD's that will access that computer via the diagnostic machine, or call the manufacturer's local rep and get it out of him nicely.
The only problem is, the vehicle repair manual doesn't contain the necessary codes for everything, and that just prolongs how long a car stays in the shop, until the mechanic running the daignostic machines updates the latest codes. Regardless of 50 years of experience with cars and trucks, foreign and domestic, since he was put to work by the commies or now here in his shop in the US, he still has to wait around for hours sometimes and pay through the nose for some access codes. He can still fix a car better than any rookie out of tech school.
The problem is the Oligarchy (Score:3, Interesting)
Dishwashers too! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Good! (Score:3, Interesting)
If the concern is over the ability for competition to copy the manufacturers IP, I doubt opening up an API will really affect it that much. Anyone with enough incentive should be able to bypass and figure it out on their own anyways.
A great new market. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't see why companies don't like the idea of getting help from CUSTOMERS.
Re:These codes aren't secret... (Score:3, Interesting)
Furthermore, the legend for the published codes is often more ambiguous than that available privately.
This great! (Score:5, Interesting)
The are all kind of problems that are extremly difficult or impossible to diagnose and solve without the ability to REALLY talk to a car's computer.
I think most people don't realize just how much is coming under control of the car's computer these days. It used to be the computer just controlled the injectors, then it was spark. Now the computer might also control your ABS, traction control, regulator-less fuel system, electric power steering. In many modern cars (A 2000 Corvette would be an example) there isn't even a direct link between the throttle body and the gas pedal anymore. The gas pedal has a sensor and the TB has an actuator.
The government needs to junk ODBII and come up with a totally new approach. They allowed too many manufacturer-specfic exceptions, and made it require too much special hardware.
ODBII deliberately uses a nonstandard baud rate, to make it difficult to interface with a PC. The result of this is that an application (with cable) to read codes with your laptop will cost you $100+ instead of the $40 it should.
It's damn frustrating to have to buy a $160 computer to tell you that you car needs a $5 set of spark plugs. (It would have cost $70 just to get a shop to tell me the same thing).
A new interface should be designed that is a standard serial port, and allows for VERY few "undocumented" codes.
Re:Obvious Answer? (Score:3, Interesting)
Not true. I don't have specifics handy, but I've read quite a few tales of performance enthusiasts putting together vehicles that could easily pass the tailpipe emissions tests, without ANY of the factory "smog" equipment. And I'm talking carbureted, 350 ci, small-block chevy engines at that.
This is one reason why performance enthusiasts have argued some vehemently against the required visual inspections to make sure the factory smog equipment is intact. If they can pass the tailpipe test without it, they feel like (and I agree) that they should be able to run without it.
Again, I don't have references handy, but a little digging around in some back issues of Car Craft, Hot Rod, Super Chevy, Popular Hot Rodding, etc., would turn up plenty for anybody who's interested.
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:2, Interesting)
I went too far with the Google thing, didn't I? Now I'm screwing around with slashdot's sacred cows. My bad.
-1 Troll
WTF!?!? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a gear head. I know lots of geeks who are gear heads. I, however, have never encountered a problem due to inability to access 'calibration codes'.
I know that you can hook your laptop up to your OBDI/II based vehicle. What can ya do?
-monitor telemetry in real time [RPM,Throttle position, timing, fuel inject pulse lengths, etc.]
-read error codes stored in computer [terse format]
-reprogram the computer[really the data on which decisions are made, not the heuristics themselves]*
*You can't change stuff on earlier computers! Must be that we don't have the 'calibration code' to make a PROM into an EEPROM?!
Seriously though! What you need to 'know' to fix a car is:
Interface specification
Table of error/condition codes and triggering parameters.
Wiring diagrams, mechanical diagrams, parts lists, etc.
how modern cars work
From what I understand, the Interfaces are standardized [think ISO,IEEE, not RFC]. The error codes, and at least short descriptions, are available. The diagrams, etc. are available via repair manuals/KB Systems. I know that at least some manufacturers publish/authorize official such products. As for knowledge, can't legislate that:)
What information is being withheld that makes non-dealer repair impossible?
And what are 'calibration codes'?Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:3, Interesting)
The OBD-II interface actually is an industry standard that everyone agreed on - the problems arise because the standard allows for manufacturer-specific codes for stuff not explicitly covered in the general spec. Having some means of specifying the maker-specific stuff is necessary, since not all cars are the same and making the basic standard conform to everything it might encounter would make it rather large and unwieldy. That said, I think the maker-specific stuff should be documented.
Phone /Stereo interfaces (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Solution (dude, that will not work) (Score:4, Interesting)
Riiiight. Cause they're stupid and don't know people will try this. That must be why a lot of dealerships charge a "diagnostic fee" that you have to agree to (check the fine print) before they'll look at your car. The same reason they will waive that fee when they find $900 worth of repairs that you "need".
Best place to find car info - groups.google.com. Had our Jetta freak out, alarm was sounding, anti-theft wouldn't let us start the car. Took it to an independent mechanic, they couldn't find anything, and the problem had gone away. Before I went to pick it back up, I did a quick search on groups.google.com. Found it. I called them up, talked to the tech, and said "check the wiring harness that goes to the rear door. Open the rear door, pull back the rubber boot, and see if there are any stripped or worn wires." There were 3 wires that were cut and a couple more were stripped. I guess the wiring harness on those cars was just a little too short, and eventually they would wear out. I could have spliced the wires myself, but I had dealt with this shop before and they are good guys. And I could have them do it while I was at work. But without those newsgroups, it probably would have happened to me again and again and again, and would have cost me a lot of diagnostic time.
Ahh the internet - is there anything it can't do?
It's more than just the engine (Score:2, Interesting)
Basic functions like opening and closing the sunroof are computer controlled. The manufacturer controls access to the computer. That's how they can extort service contracts out of new car buyers. You have no choice other than to take it to the dealer. The radio is computer controlled, and I would bet that the electric windows have to calibrated by the dealer as well.
Re:WTF!?!? (Score:5, Interesting)
The issue is that ODBII is a pathetic subset of the real information avaible. In some cases it's useless (diagnosing climate controls, etc), in other cases it just a LOT less information than the dealer-specfic compter would provide.
Obviously not having it doesn't make non-dealer repair impossible, but it does make it a lot harder. If you knew nothing about cars you could just replace parts until you find the right thing but it this the right way to do it?
The point here is that independent shops are being put at a severe disadvantage by being provided only a minimal subset of the availible data.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Interesting)
In fact, it actually takes a mere afternoon to build the calibration data. It takes a fair bit of equipment (diag station, dynamo, etc.), but the process is rather simple. (that is, for those that know how to do it.)
Ironic side discussion... the only real difference between the VW 1.8T engines (150hp and 180hp anyway) is the ECU programming. I can "upgrade" my engine with a serial cable
Nothing is stopping you... (Score:3, Interesting)
If it pisses you off, do nothing (huh? but seriously) - when your car gets older and starts having problems, don't take it to the dealer. Take it to your local mechanic, and tell him you want a carberator installed and to go ahead and throw out the fuel injector.
It may be more expensive the first time through, but that way you won't have problems with 20 year old computer equipment - that your mechanic doesn't know how to fix without using junk-yard parts anyway.
Many have said it before, and others will say it again - if it displeases you... vote with your wallets.
Re:It's more than just the engine (Score:5, Interesting)
I had a problem with my '99 cavalier; the engine would drop it's RPMs by several hundred every once in a while; almost, but not quite, enough to stall.
Took it in to the dealer, they said 'is the check engine light on?'
'Nope,' I replied, 'but here's what it's doing...'
'Sorry,' came the reply. 'If the check light's not on, there's no diagnostic codes for us to look up. We can't fix it unless we know what's wrong.'
Re:I really miss.... (Score:1, Interesting)
The idea that a 12.5 compression ratio,
shade tree mech (Score:5, Interesting)
It should also be noted that legislation addressing this issue was originally championed by the late Sen. Paul Wellstone of MN.
It should also remind us how close we are to similarly prescribed access to the internals of a general purpose computer. Wouldn't some interests like to see a *No user serviceable parts inside. Opening case voids any warranties or EULAs associated with this machine.* sticker on your next box.
Re:These codes aren't secret... (Score:2, Interesting)
I guess if you're only pulling 1 parameter then you can sample data fast enough, but if you're pulling, say, 5 sensors' data at once, the samplerate for each individual sensor is rather slow. Doing a 0-60 acceleration run in my Maxima, I got 3 readings for RPM during the entire run, pulling around 5 different readings at once for comparison (RPM, MAF throughput, Ignition timing advance, front and rear bank O2 sensors)
FYI this was on a 2000 Nissan Maxima and using the Auterra OBD-II Dyno-Scan for PalmOS on a Palm m505.
Chrysler Cars too (Score:2, Interesting)
See http://www.allpar.com/fix/codes.html for details. Through the mid-1990's, you usually:
* Start with the key in "off"
* Within about five seconds, turn the key "on-off-on-off-on". Leave it in on the last "on".
* Watch the "Check Engine" or "Service Engine Soon" light. Count the blinks. Digits are seperated by small pauses, individual trouble codes are seperated by longer pauses. The "end of codes" code is 5-5.
See the above link for more information.
I wouldn't be suprised if one of the ultimate goals of the open-car-computer push is to make it so that anyone can download the most recent engine computer code and flash it into the engine controller. Stealerships charge you a lot to do this simple procedure, and there is no reason why you or an independent mechanic shouldn't be able to use the common OBD-2 interfaces to upload new control software.
Jim
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Interesting)
First off, while the error codes are usually VERY accurate to what POTENTIAL problems are, they DON'T always tell you exactly what the problem is. Case in point: '96 GMC Yukon, the Service Engine light comes up every few days. Running the computer codes, it spits out a problem with an O2 sensor in the exhaust system, saying there is too much O2 in the exhaust. Now, this could be a number of things wrong...from problems with plugs and whires to bad gaskets, etc. that allow O2 leakage. However, the problem is nothing more than a crack in the weld on the exhaust pipe that leaks air into the exhaust system before the sensor, causing it to go off.
Secondly, last time I checked, I could buy manufacturer-specific computer equipment to diagnose cars from the manufacturers as a mechanic. Yes, the're about $600-700 a pop. (Snapon in turn sells a computer for that price and sells modules for each manufacturer for diagnosis).
Also, these performance maps and such you think aren't necessary...are. Why? because, during diagnosis, one of the things we look at is engine performance to verify that the engine isn't having trouble. The computer calculates and spits out performance data for the technician based on the information in the computer. No, we don't get to see all of the information on the chip directly, but for the sake of diagnosis, our tools have to be able to access it in the event that the car's performance is lagging behind what it should be and we have to diagnose it.
Thank you for our time.
Hiding true reasons behind Good Samaritan concepts (Score:2, Interesting)
Alternatives to legislation... Purchasing. (Score:2, Interesting)
Changing the laws usually involves a very long an complicated process, where the automobile manufacturers are likely to moan and complain and lobby even after any legislation is passed.
As an alternative, or even as an addition, consider
* The government is a very large purchaser of vehicles for all sorts of purposes - transport, police, maintenance, military, car pools, inspectors etc - it is therefore likely that there is a massive purchasing bueracracy to go with this.
* The purchasing beaurarcracy usually drives billions in purchasing and has the ability to set the requirements for goods to be purchased.
So, perhaps the government should REQUIRE, through its own purchasing (where no legislation would be required, that all vehicles it purchases MUST have open standardised diagnostics) given the likely scale of purchases the government makes, the automobile manufacturers would be left to either Do It (in which case its done, and there is at best its adoption into all cars, at worst only government vehicles - but there is at least a fleet of vehicles out there you can target), or to Not Do It (and face allegations of collusion, or provide a trigger for the government to legislate it with some justification)
I'll admit that there are a few flaws:
* You can still lobby the government to force purchasing not to mandate the changes.
* The manufacturers could (perhaps the best option from their perspective) provide free equipment to access the data.
* Manufacturers could do it only to government vehicles (but at least then there would be a large number of vehicles out there in the second-hand market. Which would eventually lead to discussions about why the manufcaturers are maintaining two seperate systems.
* Takes a long time.
This kind of problem can be solved generally in two ways - purchaser preference, and legislative involvement. In most situations though, individual purchasers have very little leverage - big purcashers on the other hand, have a LOT of leverage.
Cheers.
Boricle.