Congress May Force Revealing of Car Computer Secrets 683
marksven writes "The Seattle Post-Intelligencer is reporting that there is a bill with 86 co-sponsors in the House to force automakers to open up their proprietary interfaces to car computers. Small car repair shops are more and more becoming locked out of the repair business because most late model cars can only be fixed by accessing their computers with codes that are secret."
Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
"I think it's an illegal monopoly. If you don't have the codes you can't watch the disc."
Yet there's a law that protects the MPAA from having to give this code to the rest of the world. It's called the DMCA. It stops you from circumventing copy-protection.
Why aren't there any lawmakers backing the public on DVD encryption? See here [slashdot.org].
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
With the codes to your DVD, you can make unlimited copies, and do anything and everything with them.
Try doing that to your car when you get it's codes.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Interesting)
From the article;
>Automakers are fighting the legislation; they believe the real goal is to obtain proprietary "calibration codes" that are the blueprints for how parts are made. With that information, Territo said, independent mechanics and parts manufacturers could duplicate major components such as fuel injectors that automakers have spent millions of dollars developing.
So maybe its the same issue. A group wants to control their property by using technology which locks things up.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the manufacturers spent millions of dollars designing parts and *didn't* get patents on those parts, then it's their own damn fault...and they have also failed their shareholders.
If they had patented their expensively-designed parts, they would have zero problems with opening the specs for third-party repair shops and could still prevent third-party replica parts.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
But it's not.
This is about ERROR CODES not ignition and fuel maps. This about being able to plug something into my car and have it tell me that there's a problem with XXXXX.
That doesn't say shit about the design of that part. They just want access to the same diagnostic codes as the dealer. Right now manufactuers are only required to make a tiny subset of these codes availible.
The automakers are just whining about their "intellectual property" because they think they can get away with it since the vast majority of the public doesn't know the difference between a diagnostic code, and the actual program code itself.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
When something goes wrong, what happens? You get a big triangle on the display and a "service vehicle" message.
What the hell?
Why not put up some diagnostic info on the screen? "ABS Failure in Braking System", "O2 Sensor clogged", "MG2 - Generator Failure", etc? Maybe even a nice like "star trekky" diagram pointing to the component, or the area of the car the problem is located at.
But that would make it possible for other people to diagnose problems, and possibly fix them. Toyota doesn't want that.
They want people to bring their cars into the dealership for a few reasons - first, because they make the money on (out of warrantee) repairs. Secondly, because the dealership reports faults back to Toyota, who can then investigate the problem to determine if they had a bad run of components, or there was a design defect.
N.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Interesting)
First off, while the error codes are usually VERY accurate to what POTENTIAL problems are, they DON'T always tell you exactly what the problem is. Case in point: '96 GMC Yukon, the Service Engine light comes up every few days. Running the computer codes, it spits out a problem with an O2 sensor in the exhaust system, saying there is too much O2 in the exhaust. Now, this could be a number of things wrong...from problems with plugs and whires to bad gaskets, etc. that allow O2 leakage. However, the problem is nothing more than a crack in the weld on the exhaust pipe that leaks air into the exhaust system before the sensor, causing it to go off.
Secondly, last time I checked, I could buy manufacturer-specific computer equipment to diagnose cars from the manufacturers as a mechanic. Yes, the're about $600-700 a pop. (Snapon in turn sells a computer for that price and sells modules for each manufacturer for diagnosis).
Also, these performance maps and such you think aren't necessary...are. Why? because, during diagnosis, one of the things we look at is engine performance to verify that the engine isn't having trouble. The computer calculates and spits out performance data for the technician based on the information in the computer. No, we don't get to see all of the information on the chip directly, but for the sake of diagnosis, our tools have to be able to access it in the event that the car's performance is lagging behind what it should be and we have to diagnose it.
Thank you for our time.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Interesting)
In fact, it actually takes a mere afternoon to build the calibration data. It takes a fair bit of equipment (diag station, dynamo, etc.), but the process is rather simple. (that is, for those that know how to do it.)
Ironic side discussion... the only real difference between the VW 1.8T engines (150hp and 180hp anyway) is the ECU programming. I can "upgrade" my engine with a serial cable
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
I work in vehicle development -- electronic braking systems.
Our module interfaces directly with the engine controller, as we request a torque reduction during traction control events.
It is entirely untrue that it takes a "mere afternoon" to build the calibration data. Testing is required at different altitudes and in different climates. You'll find auto testing going on everywhere from Wanaka, New Zealand (for wintery conditions in the middle of Michigan's summer) to Borrego Springs, California... Or up in Arvidsjaur, Sweden when it's -40. A dyno and a diagnostic tool won't do much to simulate these climates and altitude variations. Throw a trailer on the vehicle and you'd never sell a car that you validated using the method you describe. Depending on the maturity of the engine and the system as a whole (including sensors, fuel delivery systems, etc.) it takes at least a year, probably more like two years, to develop an engine calibration.
Twilight zone (Score:3, Funny)
It's not April 1st yet... what's going on here?
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple: Maybe they would get help from customers, maybe not. If they got help from customers, then their cars would be a little bit better (though probably not much), and their customers would be a little bit happier.
But by keeping all this stuff secret, they create a monopoly on service and their dealerships can charge $200 for something that Joe Smith at your local garage would charge $120 for.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's not the reason, not at all. Discounting potential damage and erroneous warranty claims, car makers must also adhere by federal law to an enourmous body of regulation involving emmissions and performance standards. These computers are an integral component of meeting those goals. Letting third parties alter algorithms and parameters conceivably puts them at risk.
Re:Patents prefered particulerly (Score:3, Insightful)
We like patents on mechanical devices that can be built, demonstrated as a physical object, and are noticably innovative. (such as noticable improvements in fuel injection systems etc.)
We hate patents on software, business methods, and anything else which cannot be built or demonstrated as a physical object. (such as one-click purchasing as in Amazon, or patents for things for which no prototype exists)
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I often think that if you could get one car executive to take a 'chance'...and try the old idea behind the original GTO's and later other muscle cars...throw a monster engine into a decent body of a car...keep the interior minimalist...with real perfomance, and keep the price reasonable. I gotta think these things would sell like hotcakes...
Oh well...as long as we're dreaming here...I'd also like a pony...
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I foresee some argument along the lines of "If we do this, <insert terrrorist/criminal organization here> will be able to soup-up the performance of their cars, and escape capture.
People working on their cars at low level resembles people working on Linux From Scratch, with the difference being that a core dump is only embarrassing, whereas an engine becoming several hundred flying sub-engines at the I95/I495 interchange, known with affection as 'the mixing bowl', could have substantial costs...
I hope the safety gestapo doesn't win the argument.
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Nothing is stopping you... (Score:3, Interesting)
If it pisses you off, do nothing (huh? but seriously) - when your car gets older and starts having problems, don't take it to the dealer. Take it to your local mechanic, and tell him you want a carberator installed and to g
Re:Nothing is stopping you... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Nothing is stopping you... (Score:4, Insightful)
Many states that do inspections that involve emissions checks are using the computer interface to have the car itself report how clean its running. This, IMHO, is the reason opening up those standards aint ever going to be allowed to fly. If its all open and anyone can code stuff for it how long do you think it will be before the automotive equivalent of script-kiddies are offering downloadable patches that cause any vehicle to lie about its emissions or set it into "emissions test mode" where the computer stubbornly refuses to run the engine in any way that causes the vehicle to fail a test that is still performed by sticking a sensor in the tailpipe.
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Insightful)
To achieve all of this, computers had to be put in the cars. A car without computers wouldn't be competitive in today's market, and it wouldn't be able to produce high power outputs while staying within today's mandated pollution limits.
Re:I really miss.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe a few cars from back then claimed more horsepower than what you can get today. (I kind of doubt it with cars like the Dodge Viper on the market). Keep in mind that horsepower numbers were inflated back then, and the drivetrains and suspensions were not capable of utilizing the horsepower that they had.
If you read any car magazine, there are plenty of aftermarket shops that do modify today's cars, and they manage to keep them legal as well.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Fuel injectors, by the way, are not developed by automakers any more. Automakers go to someone and say hey, we need an injector with these dimensions that flows this much fuel and runs off this voltage, and they get a part back, they sign a contract agreeing to buy so many of them and to put however many of them into cars, and that's it. Furthermore a fuel injector is a dog-simple item which can be made better simply by throwing more money at it for better materials - it's just a solenoid valve. They usually run on 12 volts and they open and close in response to an electrical signal which is pulsed once for each opening. They are usually run at a single given pressure by the OEM and you can "trick" them (and your computer) by using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, which is a popular way of doing a cheap turbo installation. As the boost rises, the fuel pressure rises, and more fuel is delivered. The next step up is to use a box that takes over fuel management for the computer, and/or tweaks the signal from the computer, and the final step is to replace the car's computer entirely. All of this stuff is done outside of the injector. The injector, as I have previously stated, is a simple device and high-rate injectors can be had for little more than OEM parts. Rebuilt OEM (270cc/min, I think, maybe it was 230?) for my car were $69, you can get new 370cc/min injectors for about $100 each. So Territo is full of horse shit, whoever he is. (Too lazy to RTFA, sorry, I'd rather spend my time ranting.)
Also most of these parts are not complicated. No one owns the facts, so you just stick a thread pitch gauge in the hole, and measure the diameter, and you know what size the thing should be; You can hook up the part and test it using calibration equipment, another (known) sensor (which is calibration equipment of course), or you can build a new one from the specifications. Data sheets are available for automotive sensors, and factory service manuals will tell you the expected range of response from a sensor, most of which are resistance-based.
Automakers quite simply want to hang onto the lucrative service market. Dealers charge more for service than practically anyone else, except for very high end establishments that specialize on working on exotic cars. For example there's a joint called Canepa's in Santa Cruz that bought, sold, and serviced rolls, lamborghini, ferrari and so on. But if you go to a dealer for your ordinary vehicle you generally pay 10-50% over the average service station for both parts and labor, and you don't necessarily get better service unless you bring in a really special car, which they tend to take seriously.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone needs to let them in on a little IBM/Apple secret [apple.com]
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Informative)
Gee, and here I thought it would be the presense of a _turbocharger_. Second post already that thinks a turbo is a piece of software rather than hardware. I don't know of anyone marketing a car as being turbocharged who isn't using a physical device called a turbocharger. [wikipedia.org]
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Informative)
WRONG! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:WRONG! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:3, Informative)
tell me again how this is different cince I just shot down your entire argument.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Informative)
Not correct. I can make unlimited copies of DVDs without any access to codes - just as I can make copies of a text written in German without being able to read that language. Mass bootlegging of DVDs happens this way already.
CSS is all about controlling who gets to make DVD players. It does nothing to prevent copying.
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't speak a word of Polish, but given enough time I could make an exact copy of a book written in Polish.
DVD encryption does not prevent copying, it prevents people from watching them with players that the DVDCA hasn't made any money off of.
LK
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Cars, DVDs, what's the difference? (Score:3, Insightful)
Stupid Lawmen (Score:3, Funny)
I don't get Congress. (Score:5, Interesting)
But when it comes to open-standards for automobiles, they're all for it.
Why won't they make up their minds?
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's more leverage for us if it's already written into law.
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:3, Funny)
It also has a pony-tail hole on the headrest, and an ungodly amount of storage room for a car its size.
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, how many legal car repair shops do you think there are? A million is most likely a conservative figure. The car computer legislation is happening because there are a lot of people in the car repair business, and have been in the car repair business for generations. But, suddenly (last few years) they've been unable to fix cars because they don't know the secret codes for the cars' computers.
This isn't "I want everything, like MP3s and DVDs, for free". This is "I want to fsck-ing survive here.
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:5, Informative)
Perhaps you missed the whole DeCSS [harvard.edu] issue? "Without licensed DVD players for Linux and other operating systems, an entire class of computer users is completely cut off from viewing DVDs."
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:3, Insightful)
Check out the homepage for the Automotive Service Councils of CA [ascca.com]. Under 'Legislation', they explain what bills they're lobbying for or against. So the real answer, if you want to protect something you think is important, hire a bunch of lawye
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:3, Interesting)
MPAA == US organisation. Quite a lot of carmakers != US firms.
See the difference? One one hand the US congress wants to protect the "intelectuall property" of americans, on the other hand it wants to open the "intelectual property" of other people (non US) to the carmechanics in the US... and possible to carmanufacturers in the US as well, but I think that might be an unintended sideeffect.
While I see how this bill might benefit the small autoshops in the US (and possible elsewhere if this catches on),
Re:I don't get Congress. (Score:3, Interesting)
The OBD-II interface actually is an industry standard that everyone agreed on - the problems arise because the standard allows for manufacturer-specific codes for stuff not explicitly covered in the general spec. Having some means of specifying the maker-specific stuff is necessary, since not all cars are the same and making the basic standard conform to everything it might encounter would make
This has been done before (Score:5, Interesting)
Ended up having to make it possible for the competition to get our service tools, but I don't remember that we were required to make them available cheaply or quickly. Not sure how things are there today; knowing GE they probably would solve the problem by buying out the competitor.
This really isn't much different than open-source vs closed-source though, is it...if the person selling it wants to lock you out of the internals, well, your choices include not buying from them.
Re:This has been done before (Score:5, Funny)
#:apt-get install camaro
No package by that name.
#:apt-get install thunderbird
Try "apt-get install firefox"
#:apt-get install mini
Downloading "mini-dinstall" from repos
Ctrl-C
Process interrupted
#:apt-get install pinto
Warning: you are about to install package "pinto" from repository "www.ford.com/unstable" Do you wish to continue?
Ctrl-C
woo (Score:5, Funny)
Congress to Automakers: "G1bb0rz u5 j00r l337 c0d3x0r5555!"
a few cars have been reverse engineered (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sorry, Dave... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I'm sorry, Dave... (Score:4, Funny)
HAL: Dr. Chandra has taught me a song, would you like to hear it?
DAVE: No, I want disk one in the CD player.
HAL: Here it goes: Daisy, Daisy,...
Preach on, (Score:5, Interesting)
Solution (Score:5, Insightful)
It's perfectly reasonable to, once they've given you the quote, to also tell you what all is wrong with your car. Tell them you'd need to think about it, as if this is going to put a bit of crimp in your budget for this month, and say you'll get back to them as soon as you've worked out the details.
Trot down to your favorite small shop mechanic and ask him how much he'd charge to do exactly the job that the other guys said needed to get done. You tell him that the dealership has already given you a quote for $X, and the problem has been diagnosed by them. Odds are he'll undercut them. If not, just go back to the dealership... you're SOL.
If your mechanic guy has offered to do the repairs, then you go back to the dealership and tell them that you just can't swing that kind of money this month. Then you take your car to little guy's shop and have it repaired there.
Funny thing is, if enough people did this, the little guys would learn what the diagnosis codes meant because they'd get customers coming in telling them what was already wrong, and the mechanics could start matching up codes to real problems.
Now the question is, is the above method, using strictly social engineering, still considered a violation of the DMCA?
Re:Solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Solution (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Solution (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Solution (dude, that will not work) (Score:4, Interesting)
Riiiight. Cause they're stupid and don't know people will try this. That must be why a lot of dealerships charge a "diagnostic fee" that you have to agree to (check the fine print) before they'll look at your car. The same reason they will waive that fee when they find $900 worth of repairs that you "need".
Best place to find car info - groups.google.com. Had our Jetta freak out, alarm was sounding, anti-theft wouldn't let us start the car. Took it to an independent mechanic, they couldn't find anything, and the problem had gone away. Before I went to pick it back up, I did a quick search on groups.google.com. Found it. I called them up, talked to the tech, and said "check the wiring harness that goes to the rear door. Open the rear door, pull back the rubber boot, and see if there are any stripped or worn wires." There were 3 wires that were cut and a couple more were stripped. I guess the wiring harness on those cars was just a little too short, and eventually they would wear out. I could have spliced the wires myself, but I had dealt with this shop before and they are good guys. And I could have them do it while I was at work. But without those newsgroups, it probably would have happened to me again and again and again, and would have cost me a lot of diagnostic time.
Ahh the internet - is there anything it can't do?
Re:Solution (Score:3, Informative)
Most cars will set off some other indicator when you do that. I know a guy that pulled the bulb on a Probe before he sold it. The airbag light started blinking endlessly. Pulled that (smart) and the door chime wouldn't shut off. Cut the wiring to that and it finally stopped all the warnings, but some day somebody with that Probe is going to wonder why they have no door chime and why two lights don't light up when the car turns on.
About 10 years too late (Score:5, Insightful)
They should have always required opening up of these interfaces. The owner pretty much has to take the word of a very small select group of "in the know" mechanics on what condition their car is in. And we all know how trustworthy the average local mechanic/dealer mechanic is (do a google for Jiffy Lube, Sears, etc, and auto mechanics and lawsuits)
Then I recall my own wonderful personal experience. I had engine fluctuation issues in a turbo charged car. 15 trips to the dealer (under warranty) and replacement of virtually ever sensor and the car's computer failed to rectify the sporadic condition. The car had a computer interface, and it was telling them... well, I don't know what it was telling them - I couldn't access the interface....
Long story short though, one day, the engine started having RPM fluctuations while idling, so I popped open the hood and, since I hadn't been running long nor very hard, decided to take a quick look at the intercooler fluid level. I just happened to notice as I pulled out the intercooler cap that the float bob sensor attached to said cap was sunk to the bottom, even though the intercooler level was fine. I bypassed this sensor and all was fine for the next 100K miles. Odds are I'd have found this more quickly if I could have hooked up a computer to the interface to diagnose the problem while it was happening.
Re:About 10 years too late (Score:5, Funny)
Well, that's what happens with a RedHat car.
Point here has more to do with than just cars. (Score:5, Insightful)
The principle point here is: Does the public have the right to access and repair of their own violation property they have paid for? This can readily be applied to almost any manufactured good in the future. Let's face it, how many things do you buy anymore that aren't controlled by computer code?
Where the profit is ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Election Year (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple ./. IBM Microprocessor (Score:5, Funny)
Hmmh, and I thought Apples G5 Microprocessors come from IBM...
Good For Me (Score:4, Interesting)
Obvious Answer? (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the whole complaint about the recent complexity of cars; it is government mandated and consumer demanded. There are requirements for fuel efficiency and emissions. A simple 4 stroke engine can only be so effecient and so clean. To meet regulations, cars need to incorporate exhaust gas recirculation, variable cam timing, complex variable spark timing, catylitic converters, and a host of other complexities. Consumers want climate control, adaptive suspension, 17 way power adjustable seats, power cupholders, remote buttons for everything, heated everything, and performance, but they expect their cars to have the simplicity of an air cooled VW?
Re:Obvious Answer? (Score:3, Interesting)
Not true. I don't have specifics handy, but I've read quite a few tales of performance enthusiasts putting together vehicles that could easily pass the tailpipe emissions tests, without ANY of the factory "smog" equipment. And I'm talking carbureted, 350 ci, small-block chevy engines at that.
This is one reason why performance
Change two words... (Score:4, Insightful)
"You don't want technology to destroy competitiveness," said Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., who offered one of the bills. "There's no reason
and change two words, you get:
"You don't want technology to destroy competitiveness," said Sen. Lindsay Graham, R-S.C., who offered one of the bills. "There's no reason
I wonder how Sen. Graham voted on some other issue?
These codes aren't secret... (Score:5, Informative)
The "secret" diagnostic codes are published. The Chilton's repair guides for cars list the error codes for each car and manufacturer. Also, the factory service manuals for those cars have the codes and their meanings listed.
I love Cadillacs, though, because you can press "OFF" and "WARMER" on the Climate Control panel and it will list the codes on the display there! Then you can do the repairs at home yourself!
You can also go buy a $500.00 Snap-on ALDL analyzer (Assembly Line Diagnostic Link) and it will list the codes too. The newer vehicles call this OBD-2 (Onboard Diagnostics, V2).
Finally, there is some software out there (Payware, IIRC) that will list the codes on a PC or laptop, but you need to build an RS-232 to ALDL level converter for it (or buy the software with the appropriate dongle).
Re:These codes aren't secret... (Score:3, Interesting)
Furthermore, the legend for the published codes is often more ambiguous than that available privately.
Too slow... (Score:5, Informative)
This isn't that close to copy protections (Score:5, Insightful)
Problem Solution existed in the 80's (Score:4, Funny)
"Michael, the left tire is running low and I've already told you 10 times. Why do you ignore me Michael? I let you into my hood on the first date. Oh look Michael, a Discount Tire shop; that would hit he spot, plus the tire tech has a nice big wrench...can we stop?"
MS APIs? (Score:3, Interesting)
Dishwashers too! (Score:3, Interesting)
Check Engine light (Score:4, Informative)
Cant remember the comedian, but oh well. Seriously though, certain brands of cars(cough cough Ford) are known for having the check engine light come on when a sensor in the car is being pissy, maybe cause it was cold or your wheel was slipping, even if there is nothing wrong with your engine. Once it comes on, the only way to turn it off is to take it to a mechanic who will charge you 60$ to reset the light and tell you he doesnt see any problems. Or you can just disconnect the battery for minute, but you lose your radio station presets. I don't see why this is such a big deal though. Seems like its pretty easy to get a code reader [patriot.net]. Hell the base model is less than 200$, might be good to get one just to play with. Not to mention all the codes can be looked up right here [actron.com]. For 25$ a year you can even use AllData [alldata.com] to diagnose problems with your car based on the codes, and be updated on service and recall bulletins. Interesting note at the bottom though: Note: Currently, information is available for Model Years 1982 to 2002. 2003 Model Year information is scheduled to be released this winter. Unfortunately, information for Honda, Acura and BMW is not available to consumers through ALLDATA DIY by request of the manufacturers.
This great! (Score:5, Interesting)
The are all kind of problems that are extremly difficult or impossible to diagnose and solve without the ability to REALLY talk to a car's computer.
I think most people don't realize just how much is coming under control of the car's computer these days. It used to be the computer just controlled the injectors, then it was spark. Now the computer might also control your ABS, traction control, regulator-less fuel system, electric power steering. In many modern cars (A 2000 Corvette would be an example) there isn't even a direct link between the throttle body and the gas pedal anymore. The gas pedal has a sensor and the TB has an actuator.
The government needs to junk ODBII and come up with a totally new approach. They allowed too many manufacturer-specfic exceptions, and made it require too much special hardware.
ODBII deliberately uses a nonstandard baud rate, to make it difficult to interface with a PC. The result of this is that an application (with cable) to read codes with your laptop will cost you $100+ instead of the $40 it should.
It's damn frustrating to have to buy a $160 computer to tell you that you car needs a $5 set of spark plugs. (It would have cost $70 just to get a shop to tell me the same thing).
A new interface should be designed that is a standard serial port, and allows for VERY few "undocumented" codes.
Value of the "secret data" is overrated (Score:4, Informative)
I left a 10 year career in auto repair (part of that post-OBD), where my specialty was driveability and electrical. The truly skilled technicians understand the system and don't necessarily depend on a particular tool to get their work done. An old-style analog oscilloscope is more valuable to a tech than any proprietary scan tool. The challenge is the diminishing number of techs that would know what to do with one.
WTF!?!? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a gear head. I know lots of geeks who are gear heads. I, however, have never encountered a problem due to inability to access 'calibration codes'.
I know that you can hook your laptop up to your OBDI/II based vehicle. What can ya do?
-monitor telemetry in real time [RPM,Throttle position, timing, fuel inject pulse lengths, etc.]
-read error codes stored in computer [terse format]
-reprogram the computer[really the data on which decisions are made, not the heuristics themselves]*
*You can't change stuff on earlier computers! Must be that we don't have the 'calibration code' to make a PROM into an EEPROM?!
Seriously though! What you need to 'know' to fix a car is:
Interface specification
Table of error/condition codes and triggering parameters.
Wiring diagrams, mechanical diagrams, parts lists, etc.
how modern cars work
From what I understand, the Interfaces are standardized [think ISO,IEEE, not RFC]. The error codes, and at least short descriptions, are available. The diagrams, etc. are available via repair manuals/KB Systems. I know that at least some manufacturers publish/authorize official such products. As for knowledge, can't legislate that:)
What information is being withheld that makes non-dealer repair impossible?
And what are 'calibration codes'?Re:WTF!?!? (Score:5, Interesting)
The issue is that ODBII is a pathetic subset of the real information avaible. In some cases it's useless (diagnosing climate controls, etc), in other cases it just a LOT less information than the dealer-specfic compter would provide.
Obviously not having it doesn't make non-dealer repair impossible, but it does make it a lot harder. If you knew nothing about cars you could just replace parts until you find the right thing but it this the right way to do it?
The point here is that independent shops are being put at a severe disadvantage by being provided only a minimal subset of the availible data.
Did history teach us nothing? (Score:5, Insightful)
US Airline industry
failing miserably ..
terrorists ..
Congress bails out whole industry ..
Industry still hasn't fixed business model
MPAA / RIAA
financially in trouble ..
blame pirates, hackers, p2p..
Lawmakers pass all sorts of laws, Judges pass all sorts of sentences..
Industry still hasn't fixed business model
US Automakers
future seems uncertain ... floating 0% financing schemes
blame the forced opening of proprietary interfaces, blame car-computer hackers
Congress soon to bail out troubling industry ?? (or at least the retirement funds)??
Industry still hasn't fixed business model
Wow! (Score:3, Funny)
Why even have codes? (Score:3, Insightful)
Look, if they want to continue to compete with other mechanics then they should do so by providing service as good as my independent does.
Amen! (Score:3, Insightful)
shade tree mech (Score:5, Interesting)
It should also be noted that legislation addressing this issue was originally championed by the late Sen. Paul Wellstone of MN.
It should also remind us how close we are to similarly prescribed access to the internals of a general purpose computer. Wouldn't some interests like to see a *No user serviceable parts inside. Opening case voids any warranties or EULAs associated with this machine.* sticker on your next box.
Only thieves need access to car computers (Score:4, Insightful)
Reputable people don't need access to their car's computers. If you want access you must be a thief of some sort. Oh, some Free Car/Open Car hippy here will whine "But I want to be able to repair my own car," or "I want to be able to hire a third party to repair my car." Yeah, right. Most people can't fix their own cars, having the ability to open the hood and work on their car is totally worthless. Letting the millions of thieves in just so that a few freaks can try (and probably fail) to fix their own cars is unacceptable. Only the original manufacturer can really fix it. Fortunately I think we can expect to see EDLA (End Driver License Agreements) that will make this nice and clear to everyone.
Re:Small car repair shops - and my car (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Small car repair shops - and my car (Score:5, Insightful)
It has little to do with quality. A old-school mechanic with 30+ years of tinkering has considerably more knowledge of automotive systems than some 19 year old fresh out of Lincon Tech. I'd trust my car to the old-timer before the new guy. Fact is, while the interface may be computer controlled, the engine itself is the same basic hardware that it was 100 years ago. The car computer can't "hear" bearing wrap like a human can. Sure, it'll turn the check-engine light on and give you an error code.
My point: putting the old-timers and the grease monkeys out of business by restricting their ability to solve the simple problems (like having to reset a computer-controlled a/c system, they need the codes), you take out the segement of population most able to solve the really hard problems.
As for your point about the range of cars on the road....I've never worked on a Dell before. But I have worked on an IBM, a Gateway, an HP, a Tandy, a Mac, a Swan, a Compaq, and a Digital. Does that mean I'm not qualified to work on a Dell?
Re:Lies, I tell you. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Lies, I tell you. (Score:5, Informative)
Every manufacturer has proprietary networks built into the car of which OBD-II is a tiny emulation layer. Its designed for emissions testing and emissions related codes, nothing else.
You can't diagnose why your power locks aren't working with it, you can't diagnose why your HVAC controls aren't working. You can't read exhaust gas temperatures, or any other direct sensor outputs. You can't bleed ABS pumps with it, etc, etc, etc.
There are VERY few models you can get that sort of information about. Volkswagen/Audi group cars have some diagnostic software available, but virtually 100% of the information about what you can access and what sort of tests you can run have been reverse engineered, and is very incomplete. VAG also recently changed their protocols for newer cars to block those systems from working.
You may have watched mechanics sweat this stuff, but some of us sweat this stuff directly. This is coming from the direct experience of someone who both repairs cars and works for a internationally ranked professional racing team.
Competition, lower prices, better service. (Score:4, Interesting)
Cars are something that are easily understood by most people. You buy a car and you want to get it fixed but the place that fixed your old car can't fix this car because the car manufacturer won't let the mechanic read the computer information in YOUR car.
So, you'll have to pay the prices that the car manufacturer wants you to pay to get your car fixed.
I think will be an easy bill to pass. The average person will see it as a way of saving money.
Re:Competition, lower prices, better service. (Score:3, Insightful)
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
This is the mandate that gives them right to publish laws to ensure fair competition. It has been quite well tested in reference to monopolies and allows them to pass any kind of laws to this affect.
The problem is the Oligarchy (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Good! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:First Post! (Score:3, Funny)
Sorry
Re:This is big brother for cars (Score:3, Funny)
Get a grip, I think the tin in your foil hat has started to rot your brain
Re:It's more than just the engine (Score:5, Interesting)
I had a problem with my '99 cavalier; the engine would drop it's RPMs by several hundred every once in a while; almost, but not quite, enough to stall.
Took it in to the dealer, they said 'is the check engine light on?'
'Nope,' I replied, 'but here's what it's doing...'
'Sorry,' came the reply. 'If the check light's not on, there's no diagnostic codes for us to look up. We can't fix it unless we know what's wrong.'