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India Starts All-Electronic National Elections 395

Posted by CmdrTaco from the future-of-democracy dept.
fantomas writes "Forget the problems of e-voting in a state in some middling sized western country as recently reported by Slashdot. The world's largest democracy is about to go to the polling stations and vote for a new government using all-electronic voting systems. Will it work? Will the USA follow if all goes to plan? Can any readers from India comment on how it seems to be going?"
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India Starts All-Electronic National Elections More

India Starts All-Electronic National Elections

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  • Python.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:10AM (#8916154)

    How would they know if they have screwed up votes? The ballots read like the Python Spam Skit:

    Place your vote:

    Egg and Singh

    Egg Bacon and Singh

    Egg Bacon Sausage and Singh

    Singh Bacon Sausage and Singh

    Singh Egg Singh Singh Bacon and Singh

    Singh Sausage Singh Singh Bacon Singh Tomato and Singh

    Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and Singh

    Just a joke, lads. In India "Singh" is like "Smith" in the West.

    • Mohammad Afzal, the first voter at the polling station in the Kashmiri village of Chainabal, was not put off by the threats from separatist militants.

      "I came to vote because wasting one's ballot in a democracy is a sin," he told the BBC.

      Heh, if this is true, it seems that with modern politics being what they are, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't!

      Let's see, it's a choice between

      1) Wasting your ballot by not voting

      and

      2) Wasting your ballot by voting for Yet Another Sleazy Politician D

      • Sorry. The beer is more watered-down even than typical American beer, it's served warm, and to get any you have to listen to political candidates explain how much better things would be with them in charge.

        Why do you think they call it hell?
      • You miss the point, though. And this is coming from someone who doesn't vote, because he doesn't want to encourage them.

        When there are a bunch of people who feel as Mr. Afzal does, you aren't nearly as damned as you are in the USA. Chances are, enough voters like him, and you could really stir things up, and demolish this 2 party bullshit.

        • Re:Sin (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Erwos ( 553607 )
          You know, 2 parties aren't good for expressing your exact political opinion, but the likelihood of either of them going too far from center as the party line is pretty low, since they'd only lose people. I'll take centrist, inclusive parties that only "pretty much" represent the majority of political views, rather than spawning a hundred extremist parties. That is to say, moderate politics tends to be the dominant mode of government, rather than the exception.

          It's like the gas station paradox of economics

          • Re:Sin (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Sivaram_Velauthapill ( 693619 )
            With that line of thinking, why not have one party state? One "centrist" party will solve the problem all together, no?

            The flaw with your opinion is that you fail to realize that the more parties you have, the greater the number of opinions, and hence dissent. The more the dissent, the more likely something will be thought out and debated.

            Even though goverments may fall apart under British-style systems, it is much better. Isreali government, for example, might fall apart but that is actually a good

      • Re:Sin (Score:2)

        by mwood ( 25379 )
        Well, if none of the choices are appropriate, why aren't *you* running for office?

        I think Mr. Afzal's comment is spot on. We need more like him everywhere.

    • Re:Python.. (Score:4, Funny)

      by alphakappa ( 687189 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @01:07PM (#8918648) Homepage
      Just a joke, lads. In India "Singh" is like "Smith" in the West.

      In north India, that is. In the south "Singh" is a martian.

  • elephants (Score:3, Funny)

    by millahtime ( 710421 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:12AM (#8916186) Homepage Journal
    "helicopters, bullock carts and elephants were all used to ferry the machines to the remotest corners of India."

    An elephant carrying a voting machine. Even in my wildest dreams I never would have thought of that.

  • If it works... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ...lets hope they don't out source their election to a certain American company.

  • Risky (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I just hope nothing goes wrong and they need to call tech support because it's probably been outsourced to India and they'll have a hard time understanding the thick accents. Oh wait...

  • you know... (Score:3)

    by Beatbyte ( 163694 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:14AM (#8916212) Homepage
    we could just outsource our voting :-T

  • Justified (Score:3, Insightful)

    by somethinghollow ( 530478 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:16AM (#8916239) Homepage Journal
    Of course, all kinds of jokes come to mind. Did they outsource it? Blah Blah Blah.

    But, really, if they are able to make this work, perhaps some of the outsourcing the US is making to Inida can be justified with their ability to, at least, beat us on the e-voting front.

    That is still a big if. It's funny we are worried about fraud on our e-voting machines. They are worried about fights. Maybe if we started having fist fights at the booths all our e-voting woes will dematerialize.

  • In other news... (Score:5, Funny)

    by weeboo0104 ( 644849 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:17AM (#8916243) Journal
    India has just announced that they will be outsourcing all government officials and associated elections to the United States.

    An unamed individual was quoted saying, "This is a very positive move for India. The savings will be good for our country because the US has the most skilled politicians that can be bought for the lowest price."

    Back to you Kent.

    • Thank you, Weeboo. And now for an in depth analysis of the voting system, our favorite Indian shopkeep who developed the system while studying at Calcutta Tech...

  • Biometrics (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pubjames ( 468013 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:17AM (#8916245)

    Some "third-world" countries have difficulty keeping track of their population, in other words, some people simply are not registered on any lists. For those countries, using biometrics for voting actually makes sense, as it allows for "unregistered" people but disallows them from voting twice. In fact, it's a bit of a paradox - biometrics could actually be the answer for those people who don't like the government keeping records on them.
    • Now remember, Vote Early, Vote Often. Thats how you get who you want into office.

    • Re:Biometrics (Score:2, Insightful)

      by elcausado ( 733047 )
      Lemme get this right. You are proposing that every voting machine inform every other voting machine the biometrics of the person who has voted?

      Otherwise, all you would prevent is a voter voting twice on the same machine. In a country of a billion, I don't see how your approach would be feasible even in a country of a million.

      Even if you plan to check this at counting time as against at run time(er.. make that election time ;-) ), it still seems to be pretty difficult.
      • Lemme get this right.

        I was talking hypothetically. No country does this yet. However, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible in the near future.
      • Why? A biometric is simply a number. Store it with each vote, then during the tally later tell the computer to remove any duplicates and count only the first vote by any given person.

        I'm not saying it's a good idea, or not full of other holes, but cheap technology is easily capable of doing that part.

    • Re:Biometrics (Score:3, Insightful)

      by maxbang ( 598632 )

      Yes. Instead of feeding and educating our people, we'll spend billions logging the entire population's fingerprints so they can vote and tell us they'd rather have us spend their taxes on better schools and more food!

    • Some "third-world" countries have difficulty keeping track of their population, in other words, some people simply are not registered on any lists. For those countries, using biometrics for voting actually makes sense, as it allows for "unregistered" people but disallows them from voting twice

      I'd like to see a "biometrics" system that

      • a) never falsely identifies two different people as being the same, as this would result in turning away a legitimate voter, and
      • b) identifies the same voter differently su
    • I'm in Bangalore on a business trip. Funny you mention "biometrics"; my Indian supervisor demonstrated their actual system to me, referring to it as the same. But I took it as irony...

      What they do is take your right index finger, and mark around the fingernail with permanent marker -- so it gets real deep in the crease between skin and nail. Once you're marked, you can't vote again. Simple.

      Polls don't need no stinkin computers, not even in the current tech capital of the world.

      Circumvention of this schem

    • take it from an Indian in India... (Score:5, Informative)

      by carlmenezes ( 204187 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @11:39AM (#8917368) Homepage
      Electronic voting systems are all very good. They are simple enough to use - push the button with your favorite party symbol - that people didn't seem to have a problem even though we have a lot of uneducated folk.
      However, where the electronic voting was nice, the human factor wasn't. You still have to fill out a ton of forms to get your name on the lists. You need to produce all kind of proof of ID, age and address. You need to go to the office several times to make sure your name gets on the voting list and after all that, sometimes, it just isn't.

      Why? because some politicians feel that if they wipe out an entire area that may be hostile to their party from the polling lists, it would be better for them. A lot of my neighbours came away really frustrated and dissappointed because their names were not there even though they had gone through the entire procedure.

      So basically, what I'm saying is, e-voting and all is very nice, but given a choice, I'd rather color a circle with a pencil if that's what it takes to be sure that my name will be on the list next time around.

      I mean, after all, why do we propose e-voting? To streamline the process right? From experience, I feel that the machines are a very small part of the process and that they should be considered onlt AFTER other issues have been ironed out.

  • Unwarranted scepticism (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MHleads ( 751029 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:19AM (#8916267)
    Will it work?

    Why so much scepticism? The electronic voting machines are being used in India from quite some time now. But this is the first time that the whole of the general election will be paperless. So it is just the matter of scale (1 million voting machines), which is of interest.
  • In many fields the 'rich west' will eventually be overrun by the third world.

    Why ? Because they have absolutely nothing holding them back, whereas we have a substantial investment in our current infrastructure.

    That makes us conservative - resistant to change - even if that change is for the better.

    Look at the entrenchement of MS for example. They will continue to receive cash that could have been spend better for a long long time to come.

    Meanwhile the rest of the world - the poor part that is - is absol

  • Electronic Voting (Score:5, Informative)

    by ke4roh ( 590577 ) * <(jimes) (at) (hiwaay.net)> on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:20AM (#8916277) Homepage Journal
    Electronic voting [wikipedia.org] in the U.S. is only slightly different from that in India. The systems in India have simpler hardware and software, leading me to trust them more - but still not as much as a piece of paper.

    India's system [eci.gov.in] is a simple box that counts. The system in the U.S. is typically more like an automated teller machine (ATM) with a computer behind it.

    The Mercuri method of electronic voting allows the voter to inspect a paper printout of the cast ballot before it lands in the box for use only in the event of a recount. Brazil (and other places) use it. I would like to see it in use wherever direct-recording electronic (DRE) voting is used.

    The big quirk in the United States is the decentrallized nature of the voting systems - every county (of which there are about 3400) selects its own voting machines, ballots, and so forth.

    • Electronic voting in the U.S. is only slightly different from that in India.

      Just as a modern PDA is just "slightly different" from a 1980s non-programmable pocket calculator.

      The systems in India have simpler hardware and software, That's a huge understatement. See here [rediff.com] and here [rediff.com] for example: the machines cannot be reprogrammed without inserting a new chip on which you have burned the new machine-language program, and even then they have tamper-detection mechanisms. No touchscreens, no Microsoft Windows

  • Indian democracy (Score:5, Interesting)

    by PlatinumInitiate ( 768660 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:20AM (#8916283)
    Now India has an interesting democracy - a 22-party coalition (which is expected to win this election as well) in control of the government. That's quite a refreshing change from the point of view of someone in an (effectively) one-party state like South Africa (with the African National Congress getting a controlling 69% in the recent election). I'm not sure which would be better, 2 strong parties, like in the US, or dozens of small parties forming coalitions, like in India. I would guess that the coalitions would allow for more fluidity in politics than 2 (or a few) strong parties.

    • Re:Indian democracy (Score:3, Informative)

      by raj2569 ( 211951 )
      India too was basically an one party system initially after independence. But as democracy matured, more and more regional parties got represented in parliament and thus the coalition. Such diversity in parties and points of views are natural in a diverse country such as India.

      raj

    • Re:Indian democracy (Score:5, Insightful)

      by pubjames ( 468013 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:32AM (#8916423)
      I'm not sure which would be better, 2 strong parties, like in the US, or dozens of small parties forming coalitions, like in India.

      I believe Israel is also similar to India in this sense.

      I'm not a big fan of the two party system (the UK is much like the US in this respect), because it divides everything into left or right, black or white. The opposition always tends to feel the need to support the opposite of whatever the current administration stands for. That's why I encourage people to vote for minor parties - if nobody does because "they'll never win" then we will always be stuck with the two party system. (UK folks - vote Liberal Democrat in the next elections!)

      • (UK folks - vote Liberal Democrat in the next elections!)

        I for one shall surely do so. The day I vote for a Tory is the day Beelzebub buys a toboggan, but I don't think I could bring myself to vote for Blair, not after all the fun of last year.

        I can't help but wonder - why is the leader of a nominally socialist party tied into this destructive alliance with the most frightening right-wing rabble seen in a Western democracy for half a century?

        • It's amazing - there is (and rightly so) a huge desire to say to Tony Blair "NO! Stop playing with Mr Bush and get back to running Britain. Which you did pretty well the last seven or eight years."

          And I don't see anyone turning back to the Tories (especially, I might add, with the loathsome Howard as leader). So I suspect the Lib Dems are going to do rather well in the May lcoal elections...

      • That's why I encourage people to vote for minor parties - if nobody does because "they'll never win" then we will always be stuck with the two party system.

        And if one of the really does win big, then you'll just end up with another two-party system, with different parties. This has happened before. It's just the way the US government (like other governments dominated by two parties) is structured--there's no advantage to coming in second in an election (unlike in a system with at-large candidates that c

    • In the Netherlands we always have coalition governments too. I am really glad this happens, as it takes the ideological edge out of politics, and ensures our politicians act in a pragmatic way.
    • Or no parties at all.

    • The price is instability (Score:5, Informative)

      by InfiniteWisdom ( 530090 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @11:03AM (#8916865) Homepage
      With this system, the ruling coalition often has a wafer-thin majority which means even an otherwise insignificant party with a small number of seats in parliament can exert and awfully strong influence on the government. The Prime Minister can be toppled pretty much anytime by losing a confidence vote. If the oppisition isnt't strong enough to form a majority coalition after that the only alternative is to dissolve parliament and hold general elections again.

      Although this government has lived out its full 5 year term*, there was a period before that when there were 3 general elections in a 5 year period. In addition to the obvious fiscal cost of polling 600 million people, this level of instability deters investors because they don't know when a new government will come in and change policy.

      That said, things seem to be maturing to a degree with parties that have caused governments to fall over minor issues suffering heavy losses in subsequent elections, so maybe we will see some happy middle ground where no party has a free hand, but the government mostly lives out its full term.

      * Actually they did decide to hold elections a little earlier than otherwise scheduled for political reasons
    • ``I'm not sure which would be better, 2 strong parties, like in the US, or dozens of small parties forming coalitions, like in India.''

      From a democratic point of view, dozens of small parties are much to be prefered. Voters get much more detailed control over politics, and a much broader range of views get represented and expressed.

    • I would guess that the coalitions would allow for more fluidity in politics than 2 (or a few) strong parties.

      Yes, and that can be a distinct drawback. With an election that will determine the one party to rule them all, you know what you are voting for. With coalitions, you know what party you vote for, but if they end up in the government, you never know whom they will form a coalition with, and what principles they will compromise on.

      In the Netherlands, there are currently 5 sizable parties with a

    • Re:Indian democracy (Score:3, Interesting)

      by rpillala ( 583965 )

      I think it's a little misguided to think of the Democrat and Republican parties as two strong parties. They are very much the same in their obeisance to paymasters. I don't know if the situation in India is similar, with monied interests having huge influence. The fact of the two major parties in the US creates barriers to entry into the election market (let's not pretend) which you can see in the fact that Ralph Nader was not allowed to attend presidential candidate debates in the 2000 race. Attend. L

  • Voted in the morning (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:25AM (#8916335)
    Just voted in the morning. The Electronic Voting machines (EVMs) have been around in India since 5 years or so, but this is the first one in which they are used throughout India.
    The voting process is something like this,
    U go to the poll booth assigned, someone finds U in the printed list of voters for the booth, the candidates can have their agents sitting inside, who also verify that my name exists.
    The identification is via a electoral card or some defined photo-ids
    Next U get a ink mark on the index finger, whcih is supposed to be difficult to erase ( techniques to erase them are "well-known":-))
    After that U get a slip which is taken by next official who has to press a button to make the EVM operable. So there is a paper trail of who has voted.
    The EVM (as shown in the BBC article is a flat device with the names, symbol of the party and a LED and a button) When the official has given the go ahead, there is a green light on top; one has to press the button against the candidate, a red LED against the candidate glows and U are done.
    The procedure is quite simple and is lot better than the ballot paper stuffing before.

    The counting is done on a scheduled date, wherein all these EVMs are kept in a specified place and counting happens with the candidates' representatives around.

  • some related links (Score:5, Informative)

    by ek-1000-ek ( 701465 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:26AM (#8916353) Journal
    For the curious and restless

    Some pictures:

    http://specials.rediff.com/election/2004/apr/20ele cimg8.htm

    The elephant carrier news:

    http://www.hindu.com/2004/04/20/stories/2004042001 451300.htm

    Some candidates:

    http://specials.rediff.com/election/2004/apr/16bod y1.htm

    This is third time the EVMs have been used but first time for a national elections.

  • Brazil got it first... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:27AM (#8916355)
    As a brazilian, I must point that we had our last elections for president using electronic voting machines too.


    The main issue is that the software used is closed-source, and it is closed even to the political parties involved in the election.


    But now there's some pressure to open-source the code, mostly by the left-winged parties (PDT, PC do B, PSTU, PT and smaller ones). And there is a good chance that it may happen, because our current governament is supporting, and recommending, opensource software.


    With some work, in the future Brazil may be the fist country to use full electronic elections, with full open-souce software!

    • Yes, and then the same machines that have been used and trusted in Brazil election machines were used in Angola in 1992. Only in Angola UNITA claimed that they spewed out fraudulent results and the country fell into 10 years of bloody civil war.

      And electronic voting in India will likely work fine if it is done in a way that people are able to trust. Giving all parties access to inspect the equipment and every stage of the process (as seems to be the case) is vital to achieving this.

      Meanwhile, electronic

  • voting machine security (Score:4, Informative)

    by andy1307 ( 656570 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:27AM (#8916357)
    I don't remember where i read this: The e-voting machines being used in India aren't networked. At the end of the day, the poll workers take the machines to the main district office and plug them into a network. The software on the machines itself isn't reprogrammable.

  • BBC link about the voting machines. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Morrisguy ( 731956 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:28AM (#8916377)
    For those who don't want to RTFA about the election itself , this BBC link [bbc.co.uk] within the story is about the voting machines themselves.

  • why? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rfz ( 534875 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:32AM (#8916432)
    Brazil's last general elections were all electronic. No big news there. There is a single Brazilian system, where a different company designs each module. Party-appointed technical representatives can audit the whole system.
    India and Brazil have other things in common: illiteracy and poverty. Most of the users of the electronic ballots in Brazil cannot understand what they read on the screen. Electoral candidates in small towns "teach" people to vote on them, by making them memorize the key sequences.
    I just wonder if these countries couldn't be spending time, money, and minds on more relevant issues.
    • I just wonder if these countries couldn't be spending time, money, and minds on more relevant issues.

      Democracy: not relevant?

    • Party-appointed technical representatives can audit the whole system.

      No they can't. Not when closed software is involved.

      In fact, not when software is involved at all (you can never be sure the code you saw is actually what the machine runs).

  • I loved this: (Score:5, Interesting)

    by meringuoid ( 568297 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:33AM (#8916439)
    "I came to vote because wasting one's ballot in a democracy is a sin," he told the BBC.

    This guy faced the threat of actual violence at the polls. He turned up to vote nonetheless. It's great to see that some people still believe in democracy.

    Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world in the homelands of democracy, the turnout at elections is what exactly, these days? And the danger we face on our way to the polls is... the prospect of injury caused by getting our fat arses off the sofa once every five years?

    Sometimes I think we deserve the George and Tony show, I really do.

    • For the last national election, 2002 Voting Age Population Study [gmu.edu] using public data (derived from Census data, but not done by the US census dept)

      2000 US census is 281 million people, Voting-Elligible population estimate of 195 million, puts it at ~ 70%. From total votes, the turnout was 56% of VEP (in a highly contested election with highest turnout in recent years), so the vote represented 39% of the US population.

      Which is about right, when you think of it, records show only 40% [fsmitha.com] of the US population sup
    • To believe that his vote counts.

      Of course, his democratic system may actually be set up so that his vote does really count.

      The British system on the other hand is set up so that a minority party like the New Labour party can take significantly less than half the votes (42%) yet still take power with a large enough majority in parliament (63%) that they can force through just about any legislation they feel like.

      So for the majority of voters in Britain, their vote really doesn't count.
  • If jobs are moving to India, blame your managers and politicians. Not Indians. We are also equally hardworking as Americans and will grab any opportunity that comes across...

    raj

  • ballot stuffing.. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by 8086 ( 705094 )
    It's a good move because the size of our population. I heard from a government employee who worked in the state elections that Ballot stuffing is common. One of the leading parties is actually paying election workers to 'press the button' for them on the machines. This was not so convenient before. This happened in the state elections for sure, and will probably happen in the nationals too. The market for illegally made 'homebrew' weapons (costing as less as $30) is flourishing as the election arrives. Effo

  • My parents voted (Score:5, Informative)

    by GillBates0 ( 664202 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:35AM (#8916471) Homepage Journal
    Talked to my folks ...they voted yesterday (I reside in the US). They were happy and kinda proud about the new e-voting machines.

    Their knowledge/usage of computers is limited, and I would put them in the same space as the average Joe/Jane American as far as computer/security knowledge is concerned.

    I tried explaining that just a fancy GUI and interface doesn't make for a better voting process, and that the programs/algorithms need to be checked for correctness and security. I don't think the importance of it seeped through - and they still gushed about the fast/easy and hi-tech voting process.

    That's about it...I guess the good part is that the machines are mostly firm/hardware and not the beefed up (down?) Windows machines like Diebold's ATM machines in the US. The machines are made by a company called Bharat Electronics [bel-india.com]. Unfortunately it looks like their server is ASP/IIS based.

  • We have 100% e-vote for several years already and, we are a quite big country with very remote areas. Probably it's not as big operation as in India but quite big as well.
    Another very interesting feature we have here is the possibility to follow results in real time via web or a java program (which I run on my linux box ;) ) that connects directly with the central servers that count the votes.
    As for the security, the source of the system is not generaly open but any representative of any party can ask for r

  • I Just Voted (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Last Year they gave all the registered voters photo identity cards , using Biometrics even our thumbimpression is in their system,

    Hold the "illitracy" jokes(i am typing this arent i)

    then they sent a slip telling us where we have to go to cast out vote , even the booth no.

    they had 2 EVMs 1 4 parliamentary election and another for local assembly elections,

    they ofcourse put the customary indelible ink on the left index finger. probably becoz some people feel nostalgic of the "gud 'ol days"

    when u cud raid

  • Outsource US elections to India! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:39AM (#8916506)
    This is how it worked for me today:

    1. You need a voter id card. If you don't have that, any govt. id is supposed to work.

    2. They check your name twice against two hardcopies of the voter lists. In addition, the larger parties have their own guys hanging around with their own copies of the voter lists to make sure there's no mischief.

    3. You sign or fingerprint against your name in a ledger.

    4. Next you get a dab of indelible ink on your left index finger.

    5. Finally, they enable the EVM by pressing a master key. A green light comes on on the box.

    6. You get to vote. The green light goes off, and the button you hit goes red. After a delay of about 5 seconds, it beeps and goes off.

    What could be easier?

    Surely even americans might be able to follow the above.

    Why don't you guys outsource your next election to the Indian Election Commission and you won't get that miserable failure as a president for the second time?
  • Can they at least outsource the tallying of the results here to the US?
    Our Supreme Court is very good at helping people count [johnjemerson.com] since most folks can't do it themselves.
  • Could the success of eVoting lead to all-Internet voting? ...and from there to legislation via frequent binding direct referenda, i.e., whereby you rather than your congressperson votes?

    (Whether good or bad, such times would be anything but dull.)

  • Did they use the Diebold machines?

    What does the US Constitution say about GW Bush being "elected" President in two countries at the same time?
  • Is your system set up to allow votes for people not listed i.e. write-ins or do you have to select 'only' from the list provided?

    If you have to select from the list, can you withhold your vote on parts of the ballot because you don't like any of the candidates or does that invalidate the entire ballot?
    • Is your system set up to allow votes for people not listed i.e. write-ins or do you have to select 'only' from the list provided?

      You are only allowed to vote for the candidates that have registered themselves ( whose names/symbols are present on the ballot paper/EVM )

      If you have to select from the list, can you withhold your vote on parts of the ballot because you don't like any of the candidates or does that invalidate the entire ballot?

      In case of any unauthorized marking the vote is invalidated.
  • Being a linux geek, I'm all for new technologies being used to make out lives easier, but there are too many special interests and flaws in the current method of E-Voting. The vast majority of E-Voting companies are really just one company that supports a biased outcome to the elections. Not to mention the fact that most of the E-Voting-Machines run M$. The state of E-Voting in america is really bad...

    From http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingSecurity.htm [ecotalk.org]: If people are voting on machines, they are not voting

  • No problems-report from India (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Prodigy Savant ( 543565 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:53AM (#8916698) Homepage Journal
    I am from and in India. AFAIK, we have not had any problems with these electronic voting machines. They have been in use for quite some time now, they were never used in all constituencies, however.

    The only potential problem with them that I have come across in local media reports is that of some political goons registering dozens of dummy candidates... their aim being to have more candidates in a constituency than the number of buttons on the machines :). The Election Comission would be forced to use paper ballots. These goons resort to capturing polling booths and electronic voting machines make their task tough.

    Now I guess these enterprising political goons will have to enlist hackers :)
    I am sure if there's an american hacker out there upto the task, he/she can reverse the outsourcing thing :)

  • An interesting fact (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Pranjal ( 624521 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @10:55AM (#8916715)
    The electronic machines were last used in elections to four different state goverments in december of 2003. Taking advantage of the fact that many voters in remote areas were illiterate and were using the electronic machines for the first time, the election volunteers instructed them to vote for a particular party only, explaining that, that is the only button that works on the machine.


    Now the interesting fact is that most of these volunteers were government employees and they were pissed off at the outgoing government for withholding their bonuses and they had a score to settle with them.

    So they instructed the poor illterate voters to vote for the rival party!

    I'm quite sure that there would be many such intances in this election of politicians exploting people's ignorance and getting them to vote for some party for which they might not have wanted to vote.

    • Re:An interesting fact (Score:2, Informative)

      by xzap ( 453197 )
      interesting fact my ass, this might have happened at one or two places, but even illiterate people know the symbols of congress and BJP, the two major parties by heart. They could vote for the right party in their sleep :P
  • Ya suuuuure they are....

    They may call it that but reality isn't always what its labeled as..
  • It is common knowledge among Indians that corruption is rampant within the Indian government. I would be amazed if this is pulled off without serious problems.
  • The big news will be the pure democracy that technology now allows. We should all be able to vote securely online, on each individual issue. No more weasel politicians.

    Don't care about an issue? Don't vote. Care passionately? Vote! We'll have an electorate that is much more knowledgeable. We'll eliminate the graft and corruption that is inevitable when big money pays for a campaign to elect someone who is supposed to represent the electorate. Cut out the middle man and vote on the issues directly.

    • I think you're being a bit too optimistic here. You simply cannot get away from the problems of scalability of this model. How do you propose to keep the voting citizenship informed of every bill and how it might impact their lives if it beocmes law?

      How do you propose to maintain the art form that is used to write laws? Yes, I do mean art form. Laws need to be succinct, definitive, and without loopholes. Our full-time politicians and their lawyer-trained assistants have a difficult enough time with thi

  • Brazil has been doing it for almost 10 years! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dark-br ( 473115 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @11:20AM (#8917088) Homepage
    And did US used that enormous experience to aid the implementation of a e-voting there? No...

    So what would make anywone think they would follow Indias foot steps?

    I dont think so.

  • Just voted (Score:5, Informative)

    by rasteroid ( 264986 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @11:26AM (#8917176)
    I squeezed in just before the polls closed at 5:00 PM in Bangalore. I was a little rushed because all the security people kept telling me to hurry up so that they could go home. However the election in my constituency was very peaceful, unlike some [telegraph.co.uk] other [cnn.com] areas.

    Interestingly Indian media is not as vocal about the relatively small incidents of violence when compared to the international media.

    The electronic voting machines felt a little awkward. There was no feedback to tell me that I had actually voted for the right person, and no mechanism that I could tell to correct myself had I pressed the wrong button. In fact one of the instructions for voters that came out in the Times of India [timesofindia.com] today mentioned that we should make sure the election commission employees monitoring the election didn't "accidentally" press one of our buttons for us.

    I would have liked the machine to somehow tell me (either through a display or by printing a little paper receipt) that I had voted for the right person.

    Also, one of the women election commission workers was looking down on my machine as I proceeded to push my button. I had to give her a really ugly look, "Do you mind?". She shrugged and went and sat down on her chair. There were representatives from all the political parties contesting for the seat from my constituency.

    What's probably not as common in the West is that there were about 10 people contesting from my constituency alone. One each from the major national parties (BJP/NDA, Congress), a couple from the major state parties and a few independents. I think the choice in the West is usually never more than 3 or 4.

    After voting each voter is marked with a small drop of ink between the nail and the skin on the forefinger of the left hand. Not sure what they do if you are handicapped.

    A state-wide holiday was declared to encourage people to vote. However in some areas it was just too hot in north of the state so the turnout was quite poor (40%-ish) whereas in my state on average I think it is around 60%. I'm sure there were many other factors that affected the voter turnout.

    The national parties are promising between 10-12% economic growth, which has probably never been achieved in India's post-independence history. Let's see how things pan out, although it appears the ruling BJP-led alliance will dominate. The question is by how much.

    All in all, it still felt good to cast a vote, although numerically the bigger the democracy the smaller the net value of each vote.

  • Answers In Advance (Score:5, Funny)

    by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Tuesday April 20, 2004 @11:32AM (#8917263) Homepage Journal

    Will it work?

    Oh, yes.

    The officials responsible for the decision to use electronic voting will herald its use as part of India's grand entry into the technology revolution.

    Companies providing the equipment will highlight its features, talking about security and speed with which results are available.

    Winners of the elections will be too elated to spend time dwelling on the nuts and bolts of the technology used to bring them to power.

    Losers of the elections will call into question any irregularities as well as the inherent problems with the electronic voting machines that motivated some of the world's best computer scientists to disapprove of electronic voting.

    More complaining will occur for closer elections. Media coverage of the complaining will vary depending on how close the elections are.

    In the end we'll all accept the inevitable results:

    • U.S. Republicans will win Mumbai
    • Indian's BJP will win Flordia

    [Damn! Applied the wrong firmware again!]

  • Many constituencies in India were already on EVMs and it was successful. This time all are on EVM. Thats the difference. And of course there is a huge advantage of results coming sooner

  • Uh oh (Score:2, Funny)

    by piznut ( 553799 )
    I hope Diebold rememberd to localize the voting software on those machines since Dubya seems to be having a hard enough time running this country.

  • The primary reason not to trust the fate of a democracy to a centralized voting system (electronic or not) is that any such system can be taken over. The stakes are much higher with a single system -- a party successfully taking it over wins all. So scumbags will be trying much harder to find flaws in it, than designers and implementors securing, or reviewers checking it.

    The danger still holds partially true, BTW, even with a decentralized, but uniform election system -- the same flaw (software, hardware, or administrative) once found can be exploited everywhere.

    For example, there are strong indications of elections rigging in the past in different states of the Union (by crooks from both major parties). But those only affected that particular state with nation-wide effects muffled.

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