India Starts All-Electronic National Elections 395
fantomas writes "Forget the problems of e-voting in a state in some middling sized western country as recently reported by Slashdot. The world's largest democracy is about to go to the polling stations and vote for a new government using all-electronic voting systems. Will it work? Will the USA follow if all goes to plan? Can any readers from India comment on how it seems to be going?"
Python.. (Score:5, Funny)
How would they know if they have screwed up votes? The ballots read like the Python Spam Skit:
Place your vote:
Egg and Singh
Egg Bacon and Singh
Egg Bacon Sausage and Singh
Singh Bacon Sausage and Singh
Singh Egg Singh Singh Bacon and Singh
Singh Sausage Singh Singh Bacon Singh Tomato and Singh
Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and Singh
Just a joke, lads. In India "Singh" is like "Smith" in the West.
Sin (Score:2)
Mohammad Afzal, the first voter at the polling station in the Kashmiri village of Chainabal, was not put off by the threats from separatist militants.
"I came to vote because wasting one's ballot in a democracy is a sin," he told the BBC.
Heh, if this is true, it seems that with modern politics being what they are, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't!
Let's see, it's a choice between
1) Wasting your ballot by not voting
and
2) Wasting your ballot by voting for Yet Another Sleazy Politician D
Re:Sin (Score:2)
Why do you think they call it hell?
Re:Sin (Score:2)
When there are a bunch of people who feel as Mr. Afzal does, you aren't nearly as damned as you are in the USA. Chances are, enough voters like him, and you could really stir things up, and demolish this 2 party bullshit.
Re:Sin (Score:3, Insightful)
It's like the gas station paradox of economics
Re:Sin (Score:3, Insightful)
The flaw with your opinion is that you fail to realize that the more parties you have, the greater the number of opinions, and hence dissent. The more the dissent, the more likely something will be thought out and debated.
Even though goverments may fall apart under British-style systems, it is much better. Isreali government, for example, might fall apart but that is actually a good
Re:Sin (Score:2)
I think Mr. Afzal's comment is spot on. We need more like him everywhere.
Re:Python.. (Score:4, Funny)
In north India, that is. In the south "Singh" is a martian.
Re:Python.. (Score:3, Funny)
So, the one at the bottom would be a guy with a hat and a lasso on his knees then?
Re:Python.. (Score:2, Informative)
and much better in the large 15-24 age cohort:
and literacy rates determined by the department of education are 62% [education.nic.in] in the 1997 data set.
n.b. both literacy and illiteracy rates vary widely between states.
Re:Python.. (Score:2)
How difficult is that ?
Now if you count people who have completed highschool, it will be quite less, especially amongs the 40+ age group.
But the literacy rate ( highschool education not the name signing thing) is quite high in the current generations, and even high is the rate of people going on to complete their graduation.
But sadly these are the very people who are uninterested in elections. So it's a catc
Re:Python.. (Score:4, Funny)
Anyway the majority of us in the U.S. are semiliterate. Otherwise how would we know which bottle says, "Coke," and which, "Pepsi?" Now, *that* would be a calamity, wouldn't it?
Some of us can even spell correctly without help.
Re:Python.. (Score:2, Funny)
Well, the original perpetrators of the English language might disagree that anyone in the US can spell correctly.
Fortunately, here in Ireland, we get to abuse the English language as much as we like, and if criticised, just point out that it's not our natural language
Re:Python.. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Python.. (Score:2)
The montly IFSO [ifso.info] is tonight if you're in/near Dublin.
That's why Coke is red and Pepsi is blue. (Score:3, Informative)
Of course, as the second placed cola maker, Pepsi added a bit of red to it's logo to sow confusion among Coca-cola drinkers.
Re:Python.. (Score:2)
Re:Python.. (Score:2)
And there is absolutely no way of determining if cheating is going on in an electronic system. That's the entire point. There are no recounts. There is nothing except the black boxes, which are of course perfect and unhackable.
Recounts in FL (Score:3, Informative)
The Recounts were not messed up by the Supreme Court of the USA. Sorry but to the Democrats out there in the USA who are bitter [I don't like Bush either] take a chill pill. The Florida Supreme Court messed up by trying to make law and the US Supreme Court called them down.
To further educate (assuming it is possible) these people if Al Gore had not lost Arkansas or Tennessee the whole issue would not have come up. The actual decision was made in Tennessee which had a barf attack at their native son Al Gor
elephants (Score:3, Funny)
An elephant carrying a voting machine. Even in my wildest dreams I never would have thought of that.
Re:elephants - link and picture (Score:2, Interesting)
raj
Re:elephants (Score:2, Informative)
If it works... (Score:2, Funny)
Risky (Score:2, Funny)
you know... (Score:3)
Re:you know... (Score:2)
Re:you know... (Score:2)
In fact, you still (usually) have to pay tax even without a green card. Fair enough I suppose, but I think (I/aliens) should be able to vote if we're paying taxes (perhaps after sone minimum years of residence - say 5).
Of course that raises the question of if I should be allowed to continue to vote in Australia via postal vote too...
Justified (Score:3, Insightful)
But, really, if they are able to make this work, perhaps some of the outsourcing the US is making to Inida can be justified with their ability to, at least, beat us on the e-voting front.
That is still a big if. It's funny we are worried about fraud on our e-voting machines. They are worried about fights. Maybe if we started having fist fights at the booths all our e-voting woes will dematerialize.
In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
An unamed individual was quoted saying, "This is a very positive move for India. The savings will be good for our country because the US has the most skilled politicians that can be bought for the lowest price."
Back to you Kent.
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Thank you, Weeboo. And now for an in depth analysis of the voting system, our favorite Indian shopkeep who developed the system while studying at Calcutta Tech...
Biometrics (Score:5, Interesting)
Some "third-world" countries have difficulty keeping track of their population, in other words, some people simply are not registered on any lists. For those countries, using biometrics for voting actually makes sense, as it allows for "unregistered" people but disallows them from voting twice. In fact, it's a bit of a paradox - biometrics could actually be the answer for those people who don't like the government keeping records on them.
Re:Biometrics (Score:2)
Re:Biometrics (Score:2, Insightful)
Otherwise, all you would prevent is a voter voting twice on the same machine. In a country of a billion, I don't see how your approach would be feasible even in a country of a million.
Even if you plan to check this at counting time as against at run time(er.. make that election time
Re:Biometrics (Score:2)
I was talking hypothetically. No country does this yet. However, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible in the near future.
Re:Biometrics (Score:2)
I'm not saying it's a good idea, or not full of other holes, but cheap technology is easily capable of doing that part.
Re:Biometrics (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes. Instead of feeding and educating our people, we'll spend billions logging the entire population's fingerprints so they can vote and tell us they'd rather have us spend their taxes on better schools and more food!
Re:Biometrics (Score:2)
I'd like to see a "biometrics" system that
Actual Solution (Score:2)
What they do is take your right index finger, and mark around the fingernail with permanent marker -- so it gets real deep in the crease between skin and nail. Once you're marked, you can't vote again. Simple.
Polls don't need no stinkin computers, not even in the current tech capital of the world.
Circumvention of this schem
take it from an Indian in India... (Score:5, Informative)
However, where the electronic voting was nice, the human factor wasn't. You still have to fill out a ton of forms to get your name on the lists. You need to produce all kind of proof of ID, age and address. You need to go to the office several times to make sure your name gets on the voting list and after all that, sometimes, it just isn't.
Why? because some politicians feel that if they wipe out an entire area that may be hostile to their party from the polling lists, it would be better for them. A lot of my neighbours came away really frustrated and dissappointed because their names were not there even though they had gone through the entire procedure.
So basically, what I'm saying is, e-voting and all is very nice, but given a choice, I'd rather color a circle with a pencil if that's what it takes to be sure that my name will be on the list next time around.
I mean, after all, why do we propose e-voting? To streamline the process right? From experience, I feel that the machines are a very small part of the process and that they should be considered onlt AFTER other issues have been ironed out.
Unwarranted scepticism (Score:5, Interesting)
Why so much scepticism? The electronic voting machines are being used in India from quite some time now. But this is the first time that the whole of the general election will be paperless. So it is just the matter of scale (1 million voting machines), which is of interest.
1st mover disadvantage (Score:2, Interesting)
Why ? Because they have absolutely nothing holding them back, whereas we have a substantial investment in our current infrastructure.
That makes us conservative - resistant to change - even if that change is for the better.
Look at the entrenchement of MS for example. They will continue to receive cash that could have been spend better for a long long time to come.
Meanwhile the rest of the world - the poor part that is - is absol
Electronic Voting (Score:5, Informative)
India's system [eci.gov.in] is a simple box that counts. The system in the U.S. is typically more like an automated teller machine (ATM) with a computer behind it.
The Mercuri method of electronic voting allows the voter to inspect a paper printout of the cast ballot before it lands in the box for use only in the event of a recount. Brazil (and other places) use it. I would like to see it in use wherever direct-recording electronic (DRE) voting is used.
The big quirk in the United States is the decentrallized nature of the voting systems - every county (of which there are about 3400) selects its own voting machines, ballots, and so forth.
Re:Electronic Voting (Score:2)
Just as a modern PDA is just "slightly different" from a 1980s non-programmable pocket calculator.
The systems in India have simpler hardware and software, That's a huge understatement. See here [rediff.com] and here [rediff.com] for example: the machines cannot be reprogrammed without inserting a new chip on which you have burned the new machine-language program, and even then they have tamper-detection mechanisms. No touchscreens, no Microsoft Windows
Indian democracy (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Indian democracy (Score:3, Informative)
raj
Re:Indian democracy (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe Israel is also similar to India in this sense.
I'm not a big fan of the two party system (the UK is much like the US in this respect), because it divides everything into left or right, black or white. The opposition always tends to feel the need to support the opposite of whatever the current administration stands for. That's why I encourage people to vote for minor parties - if nobody does because "they'll never win" then we will always be stuck with the two party system. (UK folks - vote Liberal Democrat in the next elections!)
Re:Indian democracy (Score:3, Insightful)
I for one shall surely do so. The day I vote for a Tory is the day Beelzebub buys a toboggan, but I don't think I could bring myself to vote for Blair, not after all the fun of last year.
I can't help but wonder - why is the leader of a nominally socialist party tied into this destructive alliance with the most frightening right-wing rabble seen in a Western democracy for half a century?
[Totally OT post about UK politics...] (Score:2)
And I don't see anyone turning back to the Tories (especially, I might add, with the loathsome Howard as leader). So I suspect the Lib Dems are going to do rather well in the May lcoal elections...
Re:Indian democracy (Score:2)
And if one of the really does win big, then you'll just end up with another two-party system, with different parties. This has happened before. It's just the way the US government (like other governments dominated by two parties) is structured--there's no advantage to coming in second in an election (unlike in a system with at-large candidates that c
Re:Indian democracy (Score:2)
Re:Indian democracy (Score:2)
The price is instability (Score:5, Informative)
Although this government has lived out its full 5 year term*, there was a period before that when there were 3 general elections in a 5 year period. In addition to the obvious fiscal cost of polling 600 million people, this level of instability deters investors because they don't know when a new government will come in and change policy.
That said, things seem to be maturing to a degree with parties that have caused governments to fall over minor issues suffering heavy losses in subsequent elections, so maybe we will see some happy middle ground where no party has a free hand, but the government mostly lives out its full term.
* Actually they did decide to hold elections a little earlier than otherwise scheduled for political reasons
Re:Indian democracy (Score:2)
From a democratic point of view, dozens of small parties are much to be prefered. Voters get much more detailed control over politics, and a much broader range of views get represented and expressed.
Drawbacks of coalitions. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and that can be a distinct drawback. With an election that will determine the one party to rule them all, you know what you are voting for. With coalitions, you know what party you vote for, but if they end up in the government, you never know whom they will form a coalition with, and what principles they will compromise on.
In the Netherlands, there are currently 5 sizable parties with a
Re:Indian democracy (Score:3, Interesting)
I think it's a little misguided to think of the Democrat and Republican parties as two strong parties. They are very much the same in their obeisance to paymasters. I don't know if the situation in India is similar, with monied interests having huge influence. The fact of the two major parties in the US creates barriers to entry into the election market (let's not pretend) which you can see in the fact that Ralph Nader was not allowed to attend presidential candidate debates in the 2000 race. Attend. L
Re:Indian democracy (Score:2)
However, the system itself is very static, because of the ``winner take all'' method. Consider a system with two big parties, A and B, each drawing around half of the votes, so that we can truly speak of a two party system. Now, a third party, C enters the picture, which appeals mostly to people who, in C's absence, would have voted fo
Voted in the morning (Score:5, Informative)
The voting process is something like this,
U go to the poll booth assigned, someone finds U in the printed list of voters for the booth, the candidates can have their agents sitting inside, who also verify that my name exists.
The identification is via a electoral card or some defined photo-ids
Next U get a ink mark on the index finger, whcih is supposed to be difficult to erase ( techniques to erase them are "well-known":-))
After that U get a slip which is taken by next official who has to press a button to make the EVM operable. So there is a paper trail of who has voted.
The EVM (as shown in the BBC article is a flat device with the names, symbol of the party and a LED and a button) When the official has given the go ahead, there is a green light on top; one has to press the button against the candidate, a red LED against the candidate glows and U are done.
The procedure is quite simple and is lot better than the ballot paper stuffing before.
The counting is done on a scheduled date, wherein all these EVMs are kept in a specified place and counting happens with the candidates' representatives around.
some related links (Score:5, Informative)
Some pictures:
http://specials.rediff.com/election/2004/apr/20ele cimg8.htm
The elephant carrier news:
http://www.hindu.com/2004/04/20/stories/2004042001 451300.htm
Some candidates:
http://specials.rediff.com/election/2004/apr/16bod y1.htm
This is third time the EVMs have been used but first time for a national elections.
Brazil got it first... (Score:5, Interesting)
The main issue is that the software used is closed-source, and it is closed even to the political parties involved in the election.
But now there's some pressure to open-source the code, mostly by the left-winged parties (PDT, PC do B, PSTU, PT and smaller ones). And there is a good chance that it may happen, because our current governament is supporting, and recommending, opensource software.
With some work, in the future Brazil may be the fist country to use full electronic elections, with full open-souce software!
Re:Brazil got it first... (Score:2)
And electronic voting in India will likely work fine if it is done in a way that people are able to trust. Giving all parties access to inspect the equipment and every stage of the process (as seems to be the case) is vital to achieving this.
Meanwhile, electronic
voting machine security (Score:4, Informative)
BBC link about the voting machines. (Score:5, Interesting)
why? (Score:3, Interesting)
India and Brazil have other things in common: illiteracy and poverty. Most of the users of the electronic ballots in Brazil cannot understand what they read on the screen. Electoral candidates in small towns "teach" people to vote on them, by making them memorize the key sequences.
I just wonder if these countries couldn't be spending time, money, and minds on more relevant issues.
Re:why? (Score:2)
Democracy: not relevant?
Re:why? (Score:2)
No they can't. Not when closed software is involved.
In fact, not when software is involved at all (you can never be sure the code you saw is actually what the machine runs).
I loved this: (Score:5, Interesting)
This guy faced the threat of actual violence at the polls. He turned up to vote nonetheless. It's great to see that some people still believe in democracy.
Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world in the homelands of democracy, the turnout at elections is what exactly, these days? And the danger we face on our way to the polls is... the prospect of injury caused by getting our fat arses off the sofa once every five years?
Sometimes I think we deserve the George and Tony show, I really do.
A quick query on google... (Score:2)
2000 US census is 281 million people, Voting-Elligible population estimate of 195 million, puts it at ~ 70%. From total votes, the turnout was 56% of VEP (in a highly contested election with highest turnout in recent years), so the vote represented 39% of the US population.
Which is about right, when you think of it, records show only 40% [fsmitha.com] of the US population sup
Perhaps he's just naive enough. (Score:2)
Of course, his democratic system may actually be set up so that his vote does really count.
The British system on the other hand is set up so that a minority party like the New Labour party can take significantly less than half the votes (42%) yet still take power with a large enough majority in parliament (63%) that they can force through just about any legislation they feel like.
So for the majority of voters in Britain, their vote really doesn't count.
India outsourcing alone! (Score:2, Insightful)
raj
ballot stuffing.. (Score:2, Interesting)
My parents voted (Score:5, Informative)
Their knowledge/usage of computers is limited, and I would put them in the same space as the average Joe/Jane American as far as computer/security knowledge is concerned.
I tried explaining that just a fancy GUI and interface doesn't make for a better voting process, and that the programs/algorithms need to be checked for correctness and security. I don't think the importance of it seeped through - and they still gushed about the fast/easy and hi-tech voting process.
That's about it...I guess the good part is that the machines are mostly firm/hardware and not the beefed up (down?) Windows machines like Diebold's ATM machines in the US. The machines are made by a company called Bharat Electronics [bel-india.com]. Unfortunately it looks like their server is ASP/IIS based.
Like to see voting like here in Brazil (Score:2, Insightful)
Another very interesting feature we have here is the possibility to follow results in real time via web or a java program (which I run on my linux box
As for the security, the source of the system is not generaly open but any representative of any party can ask for r
I Just Voted (Score:2, Interesting)
Hold the "illitracy" jokes(i am typing this arent i)
then they sent a slip telling us where we have to go to cast out vote , even the booth no.
they had 2 EVMs 1 4 parliamentary election and another for local assembly elections,
they ofcourse put the customary indelible ink on the left index finger. probably becoz some people feel nostalgic of the "gud 'ol days"
when u cud raid
Outsource US elections to India! (Score:5, Interesting)
1. You need a voter id card. If you don't have that, any govt. id is supposed to work.
2. They check your name twice against two hardcopies of the voter lists. In addition, the larger parties have their own guys hanging around with their own copies of the voter lists to make sure there's no mischief.
3. You sign or fingerprint against your name in a ledger.
4. Next you get a dab of indelible ink on your left index finger.
5. Finally, they enable the EVM by pressing a master key. A green light comes on on the box.
6. You get to vote. The green light goes off, and the button you hit goes red. After a delay of about 5 seconds, it beeps and goes off.
What could be easier?
Surely even americans might be able to follow the above.
Why don't you guys outsource your next election to the Indian Election Commission and you won't get that miserable failure as a president for the second time?
Re:Outsource US elections to India! (Score:2, Funny)
Results outsourced? (Score:2)
Our Supreme Court is very good at helping people count [johnjemerson.com] since most folks can't do it themselves.
domino theory (Score:2)
(Whether good or bad, such times would be anything but dull.)
What machines? What software? (Score:2)
What does the US Constitution say about GW Bush being "elected" President in two countries at the same time?
OK, I have a serious question. (Score:2, Interesting)
If you have to select from the list, can you withhold your vote on parts of the ballot because you don't like any of the candidates or does that invalidate the entire ballot?
Re:OK, I have a serious question. (Score:2, Informative)
You are only allowed to vote for the candidates that have registered themselves ( whose names/symbols are present on the ballot paper/EVM )
If you have to select from the list, can you withhold your vote on parts of the ballot because you don't like any of the candidates or does that invalidate the entire ballot?
In case of any unauthorized marking the vote is invalidated.
Stealing the Vote (Score:2, Informative)
From http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingSecurity.htm [ecotalk.org]: If people are voting on machines, they are not voting
No problems-report from India (Score:5, Interesting)
The only potential problem with them that I have come across in local media reports is that of some political goons registering dozens of dummy candidates... their aim being to have more candidates in a constituency than the number of buttons on the machines
Now I guess these enterprising political goons will have to enlist hackers
I am sure if there's an american hacker out there upto the task, he/she can reverse the outsourcing thing
An interesting fact (Score:5, Interesting)
Now the interesting fact is that most of these volunteers were government employees and they were pissed off at the outgoing government for withholding their bonuses and they had a score to settle with them.
So they instructed the poor illterate voters to vote for the rival party!
I'm quite sure that there would be many such intances in this election of politicians exploting people's ignorance and getting them to vote for some party for which they might not have wanted to vote.
Re:An interesting fact (Score:2, Informative)
democracy? (Score:2)
They may call it that but reality isn't always what its labeled as..
Corruption? (Score:2)
Technology Allows For A Pure Democracy (Score:2, Interesting)
Don't care about an issue? Don't vote. Care passionately? Vote! We'll have an electorate that is much more knowledgeable. We'll eliminate the graft and corruption that is inevitable when big money pays for a campaign to elect someone who is supposed to represent the electorate. Cut out the middle man and vote on the issues directly.
Re:Technology Allows For A Pure Democracy (Score:3, Insightful)
How do you propose to maintain the art form that is used to write laws? Yes, I do mean art form. Laws need to be succinct, definitive, and without loopholes. Our full-time politicians and their lawyer-trained assistants have a difficult enough time with thi
Brazil has been doing it for almost 10 years! (Score:3, Interesting)
So what would make anywone think they would follow Indias foot steps?
I dont think so.
Just voted (Score:5, Informative)
Interestingly Indian media is not as vocal about the relatively small incidents of violence when compared to the international media.
The electronic voting machines felt a little awkward. There was no feedback to tell me that I had actually voted for the right person, and no mechanism that I could tell to correct myself had I pressed the wrong button. In fact one of the instructions for voters that came out in the Times of India [timesofindia.com] today mentioned that we should make sure the election commission employees monitoring the election didn't "accidentally" press one of our buttons for us.
I would have liked the machine to somehow tell me (either through a display or by printing a little paper receipt) that I had voted for the right person.
Also, one of the women election commission workers was looking down on my machine as I proceeded to push my button. I had to give her a really ugly look, "Do you mind?". She shrugged and went and sat down on her chair. There were representatives from all the political parties contesting for the seat from my constituency.
What's probably not as common in the West is that there were about 10 people contesting from my constituency alone. One each from the major national parties (BJP/NDA, Congress), a couple from the major state parties and a few independents. I think the choice in the West is usually never more than 3 or 4.
After voting each voter is marked with a small drop of ink between the nail and the skin on the forefinger of the left hand. Not sure what they do if you are handicapped.
A state-wide holiday was declared to encourage people to vote. However in some areas it was just too hot in north of the state so the turnout was quite poor (40%-ish) whereas in my state on average I think it is around 60%. I'm sure there were many other factors that affected the voter turnout.
The national parties are promising between 10-12% economic growth, which has probably never been achieved in India's post-independence history. Let's see how things pan out, although it appears the ruling BJP-led alliance will dominate. The question is by how much.
All in all, it still felt good to cast a vote, although numerically the bigger the democracy the smaller the net value of each vote.
Answers In Advance (Score:5, Funny)
Will it work?
Oh, yes.
The officials responsible for the decision to use electronic voting will herald its use as part of India's grand entry into the technology revolution.
Companies providing the equipment will highlight its features, talking about security and speed with which results are available.
Winners of the elections will be too elated to spend time dwelling on the nuts and bolts of the technology used to bring them to power.
Losers of the elections will call into question any irregularities as well as the inherent problems with the electronic voting machines that motivated some of the world's best computer scientists to disapprove of electronic voting.
More complaining will occur for closer elections. Media coverage of the complaining will vary depending on how close the elections are.
In the end we'll all accept the inevitable results:
[Damn! Applied the wrong firmware again!]
not new (Score:2)
Uh oh (Score:2, Funny)
Dangers of uniform election system(s) (Score:3, Insightful)
The primary reason not to trust the fate of a democracy to a centralized voting system (electronic or not) is that any such system can be taken over. The stakes are much higher with a single system -- a party successfully taking it over wins all. So scumbags will be trying much harder to find flaws in it, than designers and implementors securing, or reviewers checking it.
The danger still holds partially true, BTW, even with a decentralized, but uniform election system -- the same flaw (software, hardware, or administrative) once found can be exploited everywhere.
For example, there are strong indications of elections rigging in the past in different states of the Union (by crooks from both major parties). But those only affected that particular state with nation-wide effects muffled.
Re:The general optonion of India around here.... (Score:2)
Envy Indians??? Are you nuts. There are over 1 billion of them. 4 times as many people as in the US. Can you imagine the traffic and congestion. The lack of privacy.
Re:Not to sound jingoistic, (Score:2)
Neither is anyone else, but hey, we all got used to it. Then we had to start getting used to having our fates decided by foreign judges, which was even worse...
Re:Indian Politics (Score:2)
So, they really are trying to be just like the US
Re:Bizarre Election Results (Score:2)
*This is an increase from the 2 currently required by law.
2005: George W. Bush, President of India (Score:2)
President John F. Curry (Score:4, Funny)
See subject.