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Education Portables United States Hardware

Notebooks Replace Textbooks in Texas 371

DrEnter writes "Yahoo! is running this article about an experiment at Johnson Elementary school in Dallas, Texas, which will provide an IBM ThinkPad to every 5th and 6th grader, each one loaded with electronic versions of textbooks and 2,000 other books. Apparently, due to rapidly increasing enrollment and long delays to get new books the school is trying to head off future problems. They also mention a similar program in Henrico County, Virginia, using iBooks and how some of these programs are affecting laptop design (like Apple replacing pop-out CD trays with CD slides)."
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Notebooks Replace Textbooks in Texas

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  • by The I Shing ( 700142 ) * on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @03:57PM (#8988382) Journal
    You know, these programs to give elementary school students notebook computers sound really great on paper. They sound progressive, tech-savvy, and even hip, but I have grave doubts about it.

    What bothers me is that there are a few dangerous criminals out there who read newspapers, and I imagine that upbeat stories about ten- and eleven-year-old kids walking up and down the street to and from school with $1350 notebook computers in the their backpacks are likely to give a handful of enterprising criminals some unpleasant ideas.

    I picture a dozen or so kids blissfully strolling home from school when a dirty white van pulls up. Two guys with masks on pop out of the back of the van, point guns at the kids, demand that all backpacks be removed and placed on the ground, load a dozen backpacks into the van and drive straight to their favorite crooked pawn shop.

    If a school system is going to provide notebook computers for its young students, or require them to own their own, I think it would be wise of them to keep quiet about it.

    So far a bunch of school systems have implemented such plans without any reported dramatic increase in students getting robbed, but I fear that once the word gets out among an areas criminals that there's easy pickings walking around wearing backpacks, all heck could break loose.
    • by Mysticalfruit ( 533341 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:04PM (#8988506) Homepage Journal
      Think about your average 5th and 6th grader, not exactly a bastion of common sense. Now, think about handing them a 1350 laptop.

      I can only imagine that with in the first day they had 10 kids in the principles office with smashed screens, click-o-death harddrives, etc.
      • Accidents happen (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Pi_0's don't shower ( 741216 ) <ethan&isp,northwestern,edu> on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:16PM (#8988720) Homepage Journal
        As a former HS teacher, I remember "book return day" at the end of the year. Ugh. Do you know how many kids wanted to pay $60 to replace the physics textbook they lost or damaged so badly it was unusable?

        Now, what happens when instead of $60, a lost or stolen COMPUTER costs 25 times that to replace? I sense that the parents may not be so happy with this arrangement, either.

        Keep the computers in the schools, I say. Give the kids books to take home.
        • Re:Accidents happen (Score:3, Informative)

          by karnal ( 22275 )
          On a side note, I remember that teachers used to get pissed if the kids would take the cover and snap it in two over a desk.

          Of course, I was the lowly nerd in high school and attempted to keep my books in good shape. However, that doesn't stop the kid a foot from your desk from grabbing your book and *CRACK*. While I admit, I'd laugh from time to time, it really wasn't my fault....
        • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:42PM (#8989150) Homepage
          answer - toshiba toughbooks.

          they can withstand even a 8 year old boy.

          I have an old one that has been sitting open and running on my deck all winter long. still works good, the keyboard was funky until I got the pine needles out of it.

        • by Paulrothrock ( 685079 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:46PM (#8989212) Homepage Journal
          Even better idea: Make a $99 Book reader and give that to the kids.
        • by BadlandZ ( 1725 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:50PM (#8989258) Journal
          As a former HS teacher, I remember "book return day" at the end of the year. .

          You might want to go back and look at how thick the books are, and how many books.

          Keep the computers in the schools, I say. Give the kids books to take home. .

          I could not possibly disagree more. Given the ridicules volumes of text books being pushed on children, this is a good alternative.

          Every year, some text book salesman shows some board of teachers how his book has more information, more details, more color glossy pictures, and converts the school to a new book. But the salesman and the teacher don't carry them home on their back, the kids do. Now, some on dollys with wheels because the weight is so high.

          I say don't give them books, or laptops. Give them a little book of DVDs and a couple USB drives to hand in reports. Get rid of ALL that junk they carry.

      • by timmi ( 769795 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:31PM (#8988961)
        Havong worked for a company that both resold, and serviced notebook computers sold to 5th and 6th graders in Michigan, I can say that while there did seem to be a higher percentage of notebooks deployed to students coming back, (as opposed to ones issued to teachers,) but I can't be sure, I have no hard numbers on total deployment.

        Out of somewhere on the order of 2000-3000 notebooks sold, we would usually have only a couple come in every day, and maybe once a week one that was a non warranty repair.

        The package we sold, included a 3-year extended warranty with once-per-year for so called "End-User Abuse" repairs.

        I think a lot has to do with the design of the notebooks.

        I think the mode we handed out in '01 was much better than the one in '02, which had screws that secured the screen's plastic back to the hinges, that should have been installed with Loc-tite [SP? I've never had to use the stuff, really.] because they were working their way loose, causing loose displays, that would wiggle before the hinge started moving, occasionally causing damage to the plastic housing of the display.

        I think from a durability standpoint, the notebooks design and weight matters more than anything else. Apple style slot load drives would have been a big improvement.

        As I recall, the children were regularly told to back their work up to the network, (though not all of them did it) because if they ever had a problem, the first thing that they always did was re-image it to rule out any software problems, (and because the Mfr. would only pay us for working them if a part had actually failed.)

        In the case of the program I worked for, the parents purchased and owned the laptops, (financial aid was availible,) and there were two "Special" notebooks, for visually impaired students, (one purchased by the district, one by the parents)

        In summary I think the success or failure of such an inititive depends on the specific implimentation.
      • by Herkum01 ( 592704 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @05:33PM (#8989766)

        office with smashed screens, click-o-death harddrives, etc.

        Sounds like the CEO's of the US top 500 companies and their laptops.

      • I've seen a *lot* of dead and dying IBM PC equipment in my time, and the *only* time that death was customer caused was the day we were all playing silly buggers in the office and I frisbeed a CD across the room and it hit a laptop screen fah-and-sqah in the middle and smashed it.

        Every other dead IBM I've seen was your classic faulty workmanship and/or materials.

        Right now I have a fleet of about a few hundred Thinkpads and Desktops. Some moron sold out to IBM, probably got a free PC or two for his kids, and left us with a corporate directive to purchase IBM, and only IBM. Four years later, I'm still cleaning up the mess. I'm convinced that IBM equipment is designed to last for two years and eleven months. It is so bad, that if you tell me a particular model of thinkpad or ibm desktop, I'll tell you how it will fail, and when.

        Let me count the ways...

        • IBM 600E/600X - Between 18 and 24 months of age, the charging circuit will fail, and it won't charge the battery. Machine will only work when plugged into a power outlet
        • Thinkpad T21 - Screen dies at about 30 months of age - It either develops black spots (no signal) in the corners, or an array of blue lines scattered across the centre of the screen - messed up signal
        • Thinkpad T21 - in about 40% of machines, the ethernet port will fail. requires mobo replacement
        • Desktop 300 series - power supplies die at 38-40 months of age
        • Desktop 300 series - if the power supply doesn't go first, the plastic moulding surrounding the power on/off switch becomes brittle with age and falls out inside the machine
        • Early model Pentium 4 desktops - IDE/ATA interfaces die and give repeated false SMART errors with disks - IBM refuse to fix these ones under warranty
        • All machines fitted with IBM Deathstar hard disks... you know the drill there!
        • IBM 240 laptops - backlight fails in the displays at about 36 months of age

        It gets worse... When you're on a corporate IBM account, and you keep calling IBM about these problems, they go deaf. Once they realise that somewhere between 70% and 90% of the fleet of computers that they sold you is dead or dying, they stop returning your phone calls.

        I made this list by gazing around the room in which I sit and ticking off the list of carcasses of dead, not-economic-to-repair, can't-discard-'cos-it's-an-assett IBM branded equipment that I have piled up all around me.

        IBM equipment is high workload for techo's. Schools either don't have technical folks, or spread them very thin on the ground. They're going to be very busy cleaning up this mess. I wonder just how many parents are going to end up paying for dead IBM equipment that the mighty IBM repair department puts down to 'user abuse' to hide their crapola manufacturing!

    • "If a school system is going to provide notebook computers for its young students, or require them to own their own, I think it would be wise of them to keep quiet about it."

      If you think it would be bad if criminals learned about these laptops, think about what would happen if the taxpayers who will have to pay for them found out!

    • by Pxtl ( 151020 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:05PM (#8988528) Homepage
      Amen. Give the kids a cheap external hard disk to take to class with textbooks and suchlike on that, then make a deal with a wholesale refurbisher for home and classroom desktops. The hard disk would be much less valuable if stolen.
      • The textbooks on computer is the worst idea of all. I don't know about you guys, but I can't stand reading anything really long on the computer. Laptops get hot, the screens aren't great, eyestrain happens sooner. It's just bad all the way around.
      • by OglinTatas ( 710589 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:38PM (#8989098)
        Yes. Only instead of cheap external hard drives, give the kids CD-R's with the textbooks on them, refurbished PC's for home if they need one, and let them do their homework on paper. A lost CD-R is 10 cents.
        The text book publishers may not like that idea, but maybe they can change their copyright policy from a $60 per textbook model to a $60 per student license, and let the schools replace the CD-Rs as needed.
        Use the money for the laptops to build a decent computer lab for the students instead.
    • I doubt it... (Score:3, Interesting)

      I have a friend that attends a private military school, where they give laptops to each student there. The front is practically plastered with warnings about how this is not your laptop, and that you shouldn't steal it. One of them is about 3mm off the surface of the lid, and says that it has a tracker in it, and it requires 600+ pounds of pressure to remove. Needless to say, I imagine the plastic would break before you hit the necessary 600 pounds of force. Now, sure, they could just be saying that you
      • I hope the public school systems take similar preventative measures.

        Criminals are fairly enterprising, though. I can imagine a fencing operation getting started to capitalize on all the stolen school notebook computers.
    • by Fecal Troll Matter ( 445929 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:08PM (#8988564) Homepage Journal
      Another thought:

      Are the teachers able to use and understand these machines?
      • by scooby111 ( 714417 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:52PM (#8989282)
        Oh, how I wish I had mod points to mod the parent up for this.

        I do tech support for 3 different school districts. In my experience, the biggest problem is that teachers rarely have the computer knowledge to use utilize any new technology. Of the 150 or so teachers, perhaps 4 or 5 understand what a network is. Perhaps 2 of those would be able to leverage the new technology into something beneficial for the children.

        Why spend $1300+ for a new laptop for each child when you're only going to use it as a glorified e-book? Sure they are capable of much more, but does an elementary school have the resources and support necessary to utilize them?

        We get technology grants all the time. It seems that the money for new technology is there, but it is never accompanied by the training money or staffing dollars to implement it. The school is expected to pay for that. How does a school that barely has enough money to pay their teachers come up with money to pay the technical support for that many laptops.
        • The solution to this problem is more tech-savvy people getting into the teaching field. Considering how many unemployed techies there are nowadays, this is quite feasible.

          As for myself, I am in the process of doing exactly this. It means I'm going to be in school for a long, long time, but I know I'm doing the right thing.
    • Actually, I can see them trading the laptop for a kick ass set of speakers :)
    • ePaper (Score:5, Informative)

      by simpl3x ( 238301 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @05:14PM (#8989541)
      As a designer of textbooks, I am really interested in the ePaper technologies, such as the Sony Librie. In the near term these programs are experiements, but on the five to ten year term I see these products taking over the market. The teachers editions, which will likely see such products first, are at this point multi-volume 12" square, 600 page books, coming in around ten pounds apiece for 30 some pounds of book for a year. And, they don't cover the material. Imagine being able to tie low frame rate video for professional development, as well as the pupil editions, and typical content in a product of this size!

      The displays, as well as the various power draining components are what drive the cost of a $1000 notebook. eliminate much of this, mass produce it, and you have a great $250 solution for the same cost as the books.

      Here is a review of current tech: (http://www.dottocomu.com/b/archives/002571.html) as well as a link to the Guardian article linked within (http://books.guardian.co.uk/ebooks/story/0,11305, 1200034,00.html).
  • by l810c ( 551591 ) * on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @03:57PM (#8988388)
    I've tried reading ebooks on a laptop and it's just plain uncomfortable for any long duration. I haven't been to cost justify one yet, but a tablet pc might be better. There is also the added distractions of checking email, IM'ing and *shhh* playing a quick game of sol.

    While I don't think it is bad idea to supply all students with laptops, I think this is a perfect opportunity for a next generation ebook reader. I have an Ebookman that is ok for reading text, but doesn't handle PDF's or graphics, has a small screen and eats batteries when backlit.

    There are several products from asia that are interesting, I just wish they would make it here sooner:

    EB660 [argosyusa.com]
    Panasonic Sigmabook [sigmabook.jp]
    Sony [www.sony.jp]

    This could be the type of application that would launch ebooks into the mainstream.

    • While I don't think it is bad idea to supply all students with laptops, I think this is a perfect opportunity for a next generation ebook reader. I have an Ebookman that is ok for reading text, but doesn't handle PDF's or graphics, has a small screen and eats batteries when backlit.

      While I at first thought the same thing, those distractions you suggest such as IM and games could also include various IT tools, scientific applications, programming hobbies, artistic expression (graphics/music/video editing)

      • by Suidae ( 162977 )
        Referbs are nice when you are supplying a couple laptops for your kids, but if you have to be able to maintain drivers and updates for an army of 500 munchkins each with different hardware, twice the price is worth only needing one or two different sets of drivers.
    • I've tried reading ebooks on a laptop and it's just plain uncomfortable for any long duration. I haven't been to cost justify one yet, but a tablet pc might be better.

      I've used a couple of tablet PC's, and while they are cool, they have inferiour screen quality. I'm guessing this is because of both the requirement for touchscreen capability and because they have to be more rugged (The screen is exposed and can't be folded down for protection during transport).

      They are definately cool, but they would als
  • by AtariAmarok ( 451306 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @03:58PM (#8988396)
    Outfit them all with giant sewing-machine size Compaq luggables [ed-thelen.org] for portable computers. Everything's bigger in Texas, so why not have the biggest portable computers around? The former governor also told me that the bigger a disk is, the more data it holds too!
  • 9 seconds (Score:5, Funny)

    by nevek ( 196925 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @03:58PM (#8988399) Homepage
    Amount of time It takes for every thinkpad to be running counterstrike.

    Billy, what is 8 divided by 2?

    What? Man that was BS Stupid Shield Lamers, Damn Lag. #@$#%

    I'm L337 Screw you Teacher!
  • Old idea (Score:2, Informative)

    by andy666 ( 666062 )
    This was done in the Maine public schools a few years ago.
  • by dmnic ( 452122 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:00PM (#8988428)
    didnt read the article, and don't know how long the Texas job has been going, but the Henrico County job has been going strong for almost 3 years.

    doesn't Apple have a contract with Maine school systems(or individual counties/cities systems) for the last year or so as well?
  • Hello plagarism!
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Raise your hand all of you who thought about quitting their jobs to become a 5th grader!
  • I gotta tell you, in my house we have a powerbook and an older generatin iBook, and the pop out tray CD loader needed to go. It's not as nice and much flimsier. I'm glad they got rid of it. I used to have a Pioneer CD drive with a slot loaded drive my Windows desktop machine. it was great, I wish more drive manufacturers would make them.
  • by AtariAmarok ( 451306 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:01PM (#8988449)
    Hank Hill: "Bobby, why is it you get -1 Troll on your report card when little Khan Jr always gets at least a +3 Insightful every term?"

  • by metalion ( 734521 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:01PM (#8988451) Journal
    While I am certainly for using technology in the classroom, I have found that like this story [notesys.com], laptops aren?t always used well. Furthermore the article states that it is quite a task to keep all of the laptops in repair.

    I recognize the case of using electronic media because the physical media is not always easy to obtain in a timely manner. The article from above gives a mix of both sides of the fence. If utilized effectively, the laptops can be a great tool in class.

    I have to admit, however, that the bundled software and the technology upgrades that are being added to these laptops seem like a good measure to assure that they will maintain use even with daily student abuse.

    Cool technology upgrades, some of the people at my office could use those the way they handle equipment...

  • This is stupid. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by DAldredge ( 2353 ) <SlashdotEmail@GMail.Com> on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:01PM (#8988458) Journal
    A large portion of the 'graduates' in the Dallas school system can not read or write at the 3rd grade level.

    Couldn't the money be better spent on, I don't know teaching?

    • Re:This is stupid. (Score:2, Interesting)

      by grafikhugh ( 529618 )
      With the rise in text book costs every year and the cost to maintain a decent library couldn't the school possibly save money? What if they have a digital library of books, no waiting in line, easy to maintain, no cost of replacing lost books, and they can convert the old library into a couple more class rooms. Im not saying the "test" program won't cost extra, but in the future it could mean savings.
    • Re:This is stupid. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by slackerboy ( 73121 )
      Couldn't the money be better spent on, I don't know teaching?

      Yeah, but it's awefully hard to teach a lot of subjects without, I don't know, books?

      A major goal of this project is to eliminate the long times that it's currently taking to get textbooks for the students.
    • Re:This is stupid. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by greg_barton ( 5551 ) * <greg_barton@yaho ... minus herbivore> on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:25PM (#8988861) Homepage Journal
      A large portion of the 'graduates' in the Dallas school system can not read or write at the 3rd grade level.

      I'm a graduate of the Dallas school system and I can read and write just fine. I'd like you to define "large portion" and provide statistics to back up your claim.

      Couldn't your time be better spent on, I don't know, precise and accurate statements?
      • Try a google search. (Score:4, Informative)

        by DAldredge ( 2353 ) <SlashdotEmail@GMail.Com> on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:34PM (#8989024) Journal
        Try searching google.

        DISD could make grade promotion easier

        Plan proposed to help overage students

        02/24/2000

        By Linda K. Wertheimer / The Dallas Morning News

        The young man with the mustache slouches in the desk chair, grinning disarmingly at teacher Theda Redwine.

        Juan Garcia / DMN
        David Saucedo, 16, is an eighth-grader at Quintanilla Middle School. He says the thought of getting a second chance to advance to ninth grade gives him hope.

        Ms. Redwine, who tutors David Saucedo, doesn't smile back. David is a 16-year-old in the eighth grade at Quintanilla Middle School. He already has flunked two grades. He's barely passing now and is insisting that he has no homework to do.

        David is two years older than the average eighth-grader in the Dallas Independent School District. Overage students like him are the motivation for a proposed policy school board members will vote on Thursday.

        If the proposal passes, more than 1,700 seventh- and eighth-graders who automatically would have been held back in the past will get a chance to advance - if they make up course work in summer school.

        Last year, students who failed three of their four core subjects - English, math, science and social studies - in middle school were held back, whether they went to summer school or not.

        But if the school board approves the proposal, those students could be promoted as long as they pass two subjects in summer school.

        With the proposal, Dallas is tackling a national issue: how to get rid of so-called "social promotions" but keep schools from filling with overage students.

        In a district in which almost half of all middle-school students failed at least one core subject last year, the balance is a delicate one.

        School district officials who worked with middle school principals on the proposal said the main goal is to get overage students out of middle school and into high school.

        This school year, 22 percent of Dallas eighth-graders are 15 to 17 years old - the ages at which most of their peers are in ninth through 11th grades. In at least a few cases, 17-year-olds are attending class with 12-year-olds.

        "These kids in middle school who are overaged, they get discouraged," said Dr. Donna Bearden , assistant superintendent of curriculum. "If we get them into high school, we have a better chance of getting them to stay in school."

        Not reaching everybody

        Even if trustees approve the policy, it won't reach all of the students who fail, based on last year's statistics. Last summer, only 46 percent of students who failed a grade went to summer school to try to earn promotion.

        "It's by no means solving the problem," Dr. Bearden said.

        Most states, including Texas, have instituted bans against social promotion in various grades, coupling new laws with summer school as the last chance for students.

        Urban districts in particular have been hunting for ways to comply with new laws and help many failing students, said Dr. Gerald Tirozzi , executive director of the National Association of Secondary Principals in Reston, Va.

        Studies have shown that when students are held back a year and returned to the same teachers, they often fail again, said Dr. Tirozzi, a former assistant secretary in the U.S. Department of Education.

        "What Dallas is doing is a good idea," he said. "It's sending kids a message: If you don't master these subjects, we won't send you on to high school."

        Dallas principals and teachers had mixed reactions about the proposal. Some fear that students who are already failing two courses will give up on a third, figuring they have to go to summer school anyway. Others say middle schools can't handle all of the overage students.

        Tom Kelchner , principal at Marsh Middle School in North Dallas, said the proposal amounts to "loosening the promotion policy." He said the solution lies within middle schools, which can provide tutoring and create special programs fo
    • A large portion of the 'graduates' in the Dallas school system can not read or write at the 3rd grade level.

      Great, they're already qualified to enter Texas politics.
  • Has to be roughly the same as a Spinal Tap drummer.
    These are
    elementary school kids, remember. Just think back to your childhood and how rough you were with anything school related. Whomever that school hires for tech support/repairs had better go to Sam's Club right now and stock up on Maalox.
    • You are right, but I am sure maintenence crossed their minds.

      The school district superintendent is a college educated adult. I am sure Mike Smith [ednet10.net], the school district superintendent, is not blindly ignoring maintenence costs. This is not a new idea; school districts and college campuses have been doing this for years. These prior projects have tabulated tons of data on the maintence costs of these programs.

      I am sure elementary school spinal tap drummers crossed Mike's [ednet10.net] mind.

  • This is just another step in the evolution of publishing. A lot of rapid turn-over material like this will soon be published this way. This will make it much easier to keep things up to date.
    • This will make it much easier to keep things up to date.

      "We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia."
      - George Orwell
    • What are they teaching kids in school which has rapid turnover? How much has math changed in the several centuries at the level that even a high school senior would be using? Any fundamental errors in Newtonian physics been cropping up that I'm not aware of? The history of western civilization isn't going to change unless someone travels back in time. English will adapt only a little to accomodate cultural changes (like you know... whatever...) but on the whole, English grammar and spelling haven't changed in the last fifty years or so.

      Anyone not in high school can make perfectly good use of existing books. The only reason why books change so often is because publishers like to sell more books! I never used a computer at school until grade 12 (Turbo Pascal on the Apple IIgs... w00t!) and given that I know more about computers and programming than most people who have used computers all their lives, I don't think this has been a hindrance. In fact, having started out with simple computers which I could fully understand inside and out, then progressing to more and more powerful ones has probably been the best thing.

      These days, starting out with a laptop you can't open up with an operating system so complex that nobody can understand it without years of study must be very daunting. I can imagine it'd cause a lot of kids to just treat it as this big mysterious magic black box that does things when you click the right things with a mouse.
  • e-books suck (Score:5, Interesting)

    by UncleBiggims ( 526644 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:04PM (#8988508)
    The MBA program I attended used electronic versions of books a lot. I hated it. A lot of times I wanted to highlight a section or makes notes in the margin. You just can't do this without a real book. Some people printed theirs out. The cost of doing this is ridiculous versus just buying the book in the first place.
    • While I can't say I've done much with actual e-books, features such as highlighting and writing in "margins" are completely possible with the right software. I know I had a Palm-based word processing program that did just that. Of course, if the books you need are DRM-ed up and you're limited to only one official reader, then you're SOL, but it's still not the fault of e-books in general.
    • The MBA program I attended used electronic versions of books a lot. I hated it. A lot of times I wanted to highlight a section or makes notes in the margin. You just can't do this without a real book. Some people printed theirs out. The cost of doing this is ridiculous versus just buying the book in the first place.

      What they heck are you using to print them?

      A 600 page college textbook is usually around $100.

      The 600 page course packet (textbook) for one of my courses cost $20 (the cost of duplication
  • on the one hand, I feel its a good thing because at least this way the students are getting the reading material.

    on the other, I find it extremely hard to believe that they can afford IBM Thinkpads, but not manage to get dead tree books. There is a great deal to be said about dead tree books, none the least that they are easy on the eyes. I've also found books to be the better format for things such as textbooks, because it's easier to flip back and forth between pages. K-12 textbooks are also larger and p
  • by spiritraveller ( 641174 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:05PM (#8988522)
    I am supposed to be studying.

    Instead, I am replying to a slashdot article on my laptop.

    You see, my school is very tech-savvy. The reading carousels have ethernet ports.

    I am easily distracted by the computer, and I'm a grad student! I hope these 5th and 6th graders have a lot of discipline... ha!

    • Nothing wrong with that. Many enterprising 5th and 6th graders will learn a lot more playing with their laptop than they would listening to a teacher anyway. I know I would have.

      Let's face it, reading Slashdot and toying around with our machines are 10 times more educational than any conference or class we'll ever attend. While students need to pay attention the majority of the time, a little free time to educate themselves wouldn't hurt.

  • by plcurechax ( 247883 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:05PM (#8988523) Homepage
    So rather than the chronic complains from school boards of not enough money for textbooks for every students, are we going to hear of complaints of not enough money to keep the computers up-to-date with software updates, security fixes, current eBook readers, and current editions of various eBooks.

    Let alone the burden of replacement cost for a below poverty line family when a child has his/her laptop stolen.
  • by Famatra ( 669740 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:05PM (#8988525) Journal

    And even better, use free (as in freedom) text books from wikibooks [wikibooks.org] on the laptops.

    Wikibooks [wikibooks.org] has free (beer / freedom) books and textbooks that anyone can edit, by the makers of Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]. A whole list of projects are found here at Wikimedia [wikimedia.org] (yes they like the word Wiki alot ;-) ).

    • yes they like the word Wiki alot

      How about wikifactsaredecidedbydemocracy?

      I like the idea of wiki, but I think there is an intrinsic problem in trying to have it create something like a textbook. A guide to London [openguides.org], fine, but I wouldn't trust the theory of evolution to be accurately represented in a biology book.


      -Colin [colingregorypalmer.net]
  • by PunkerTFC ( 773417 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:05PM (#8988530)
    Here in Maine every 7th grader is provided with a 12" iBook. Some people think the program is very successful, others think it's a huge waste of money. As one of the students who didn't get a laptop (senior this year) I'm a little jealous, but I think it's a good idea.
  • by lpangelrob2 ( 721920 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:07PM (#8988551) Journal
    From my point of view, the only thing I remember about school (though not in the 6th - 8th grades) was the absurd amount of homework assigned, and the fact I had to take every single book home in order to do it. I broke many a backpack back in the day when I still cared about doing well in school.

    I would've much rather taken home a 9 lb. laptop than 50 lbs. worth of books. Maybe I would've gotten beat up less too. :-)

  • The school is in Forney. About 15 miles southeast of Dallas. Dallas ISD would never be that forward thinking. Besides, the laptops would set off all the metal detectors.
  • Paper? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by alexatrit ( 689331 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:08PM (#8988581) Homepage
    What ever happened to the old methods of teaching? Proper instruction by example? Reading the assignments out of the book? I still think there's something to be said for turning the pages yourself and reading, away from the electronics. In addition, laptops for kids will further introduce repetitive stress injuries and carpal tunnel syndrom earlier in people's lives.
  • Not so hot (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Lord_Dweomer ( 648696 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:08PM (#8988583) Homepage
    This is really great that a lot of children who might not be able to afford laptops are getting them free. Computers offer great educational opportunities.

    That being said, I would want the option to have some of the textbooks in book form still.

    There really is something to be said for being able to flip through a book, or highlighting text and writing notes in the margins. Also, you don't need a charged battery to read a book, nor do you have to treat it as delicately as a computer. Also, while this is somewhat hypocritical because of how much I read on the computer everyday....I still wouldn't want to have to read a history book on the computer. Certain types of text are just easier on the eyes to read in a book. Short little sections would be fine on the computer, but not the longer stuff.

  • I don't get it... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by tgd ( 2822 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:11PM (#8988625)
    They say a set of childs textbooks is $350, so if the notebooks were $500, it would be cost competitive.

    Admittedly its been a long time since I've been in school, but my textbooks were largely decades old when I was in school. They may be $350 a set, but spread out over 30 years, thats $15 a year per student.

    We can barely keep an IBM laptop here at work running for a year before they break, and these are developers and sales guys, not 6th graders using them.

    Even if the cost of the electronic versions was $0, I don't see how this is even remotely cost effective.
  • I wish they would put linux on these laptops for kids. Then they not only learn the regular school crap, but also learn that there are other ways to use a computer besides windows. I had a Mac for years because I was basically taught how to use them from Junior High and up. The only use we had for Windows was in our typing class, and all we did with that was use net send to make fun of each other. On a side note - I remember when they put Novell on our network in 9th grade when I went to military school. Th

  • Cost Effectiveness (Score:5, Interesting)

    by the sabster ( 761831 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:12PM (#8988653)
    The article said a set of books costs $350/student, and they thought they could get a laptop for $500/student.

    We all know laptops become antiquated within a few years. I find it highly unlikely that a laptop would last for 5 years, it's probable that at the 3-4 mark the school district would have to sink big $ into new software licenses, or just buy new machines.

    I'm pretty sure I remember some of my school textbooks being pretty darn old... the signatures & dates of students being assigned to them were 10+ years on some books.

    So how is buying laptops w/ ebooks saving any money?
  • I'd rather see the US School system fix the screwed up education system rather than go in for "nifty", "hi-tech" solutions to non-existent problems. Why do I get a feeling that the big software/hardware players were behind getting the schools to spend their already lacking budgets this way? There are several other insightful comments regarding the school system in that story too.

    BTW, this Slashdot comment [slashdot.org] posted a few days back nicely sums up the current state of the school system in the US. I'd rather se

  • printing technology (Score:3, Interesting)

    by avandesande ( 143899 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:15PM (#8988708) Journal
    With the low cost of printers, and a binding machine, why don't the schools print their own books?
  • by Uninvited Guest ( 237316 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:17PM (#8988742)
    You know, it seems that every school board wants a set a of textbooks that match their own criteria. Some school systems want creationism taught alongside evolution; other systems want phonics emphasized over rote spelling. With paper textbooks, no publisher can produce a textbook that pleases every set of criteria. At best, the publishers can come up with variants on the original textbook, and update the next edition to suit a plurality of customers.

    Enter electronic textbooks. Publishers can now produce a unique version of any textbook for any given school system. What's more, the content is no longer static for years and years. Found a typo in that edition? We'll have that corrected and downloaded to you in a week. A major change in biology studies because of human genome research? No problem. Examples, homework assignments, and content need only be limited by how much the publisher can organize and layout. School systems' per-student textbook costs drop down to the cost of a computer per student (which follows them through high school or 'till they break it) and the publisher subscription costs.

    Sure, there are problems with textbooks on a tablet computer. However, the cost and content benefits are so strong, school systems will be forced to switch. The bag full of books we lugged to and from school (through the snow) (uphill) (both ways) will become the old-fogey gag of our children.
  • As far as I'm concerned, computers should not be a part of a child's in-school education until high school. Reading and writing should be done by hand, using a pen or pencil, paper, dictionary, and thesaurus. Why? Doing schoolwork with computers makes it easier, because the computers automate the 'boring' tasks, which is great, unless it's the boring tasks that you want the students to be learning.

    The overuse of computers with younger kids is incredibly evident today, as students emerge from high school
  • Time to hop in a truck, go to Texas, and hand out PS2 and Xbox games! I'm thinking that a 5:1 swap might be persuasive...
  • by smurf975 ( 632127 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:26PM (#8988873) Homepage Journal
    1. Laptops are to powerhungry
    2. Not child safe (what if it falls) ( you need some gameboy like build device )
    3. Expensive
    4. Overpowered for this situation.

    The best thing to do would to build a custom ebook reader. That wouldn't be to hard I think. Just take an el-cheapo (older model) PDA (its engine) and but a bigger LCD screen on and maybe a bit more vram.

    For instance:
    1. To save development costs on the hardware and OS and tools we will use the: Palm IIIc Handheld [dealtime.com]. Which has 256 colours and costs $79. Mind you this price is also including all the extra's like warrenty, batteries, small LCD and Synchronizing HotSync cradle and battery recharger (120 VAC, 60 HZ), Metal stylus, Palm Desktop organizer software, Handbook , Lithium ion rechargeable battery (internal) ,DB-25 adapter,Protective flip lid .
    So without all of that we will pay Palm $60 for the hardware and OS.

    2. Just slap on a slow (not watching video or playing games) and cheap LCD of 800x600 that costs about $60 (in mass quantities). Example here [tinyurl.com]

    3. Bluetooth module $5

    4. Casing $10

    A total price of $60 + $60 + $5 + $10 = $135 for hardware and OS. Now add some $$$ for development costs and accessories and profit and the price will be about $209,95.

    Optional: Touchscreen, newer hardware, faster wireless networking etc.
  • This peeves me to no end. Dallas has so many fiduciary problems right now. Hell, the school system was finally desegregated within the past few years. The schools don't have enough money to house all the students, and they want to spend $thousands or $millions on notebook computers?

    I could go on and on about those, but I won't. I invite you to check out the Dallas Observer [dallasobserver.com] for a glimpse into Dallas's politics. Read about the fake drug scandal, for instance.

  • Billy has Blaster again!

    [classroom chanting]You've got Blaster! You've got Blaster!
  • by nfotxn ( 519715 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:32PM (#8988986) Journal
    Anyone who's ever read The Social Life of Information knows that this is probably a bad idea. Text books last a lot longer than notebook computers and paper has all sorts of resiliant qualities that even the most advanced computers can't compare with.

    This is definitive tunnel vision.

  • Nice, but... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:33PM (#8988997) Homepage Journal

    Great! So instead of printing a copy of the classics downloaded from the internet at a few pennies per copy, my child can now use a $1350 laptop:

    • Bullies might not care for Johnny's printouts of Wuthering Heights, but they'd be glad to take his laptop.
    • Instead of paying $50 per child per year for textbook rental, parents will now have to pay $50 per year per laptop for antivirus subscriptions, and buy a ~$1000 laptop for each of their children.
    • Lost laptops are a much bigger problem than lost books.
    • How many kids hawk their textbooks for drug money? How many kids would hawk their laptop for drug money?

    I don't see any sense in this at all. Basically, this makes every child a target of criminal activity. But worse, it seems to me that this is a part of the greater "worship computers because they are the future..." mantra I see in schools. Just because little Johnny can use a computer doesn't mean he's not an idiot, and I believe that most businesses are aware of this fact. What's going to happen is that these parents are going to find out the hard way that the money they spent on computer hardware is actually going to be a disadvantage when it comes to their children going to college - you can't use a computer on standardized tests, and without it, little Johnny's going to be lost. No worry, though - he can still qualify for that fast food job and go to a "computer school," or community college where he'll learn how to be a Windows Admin for $6/hour (or whatever it pays by then). If he looks good, they might feature him in the commercials...

    Rest assured, these students won't learn any computer science during this program. In fact, they'll be lucky to read even 10% of the books installed...

    Computers don't teach logic or reason - if they did, a substantial portion of the population would not be making a living teaching inherently stupid machines to perform monotonous tasks.

    • Re:Nice, but... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by laird ( 2705 )
      "Great! So instead of printing a copy of the classics downloaded from the internet at a few pennies per copy, my child can now use a $1350 laptop"

      It seems to me that 'gillbates' is complaining about hypothetical problems, and ignoring how well laptops are actually working out in schools. If I had moderator points (just finished voting a few minutes ago, darn it) I'd mod him down. Instead I'll post. :-)

      $1,350 is certainly more than the cost of the textbooks ($350), but not much, and probaly less than the c
  • by flabbergast ( 620919 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:33PM (#8989004)
    I'm confused by the author's comment that Apple replaced the pop-out cd trays with slot load cds on their iBooks because of a school/school district. Are they saying that Apple redesigned the iBook because of the school or that Apple took the iBooks the school already had and replaced the popouts with slot load?

    My guess would be its the former and I think the author's full of it. How can this author even lead us to believe that a school district in Virginia affects product design at Apple? Yeah, they buy a lot of laptops, but I think the author's stretching in making that proclamation. When the iBook came out with the slot load drive, it seemed like a natural progression because with the slot load upgrade also came the move to the G4 as well as numerous other changes like moving to Airport Extreme. The iBook was moving closer to the 12" PowerBook which has a slot load drive, G4 chip and Airport Extreme. I'm sure the drive to change the iBook design came more from integration of components across multiple platforms than a desire to prevent 11 years from breaking computers loaned to them.
  • I would hate to have to deal with all the spy software and viruses these laptops will get on them. They are going to wish they went with Apple iBooks.
  • by wizarddc ( 105860 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:35PM (#8989044) Homepage Journal
    I used to get dententions for not covering my books (i kow, very lame of me). What the hell kind of punishment are these kids gonna get for not properly treating their ThinkPads? In School suspension for not going to windowsupdate weekly? A day with the principal for installing malware? Writing on the chalkboard 100 times "I will defrag weekly"? I think they are putting a little bit too much faith, trust, and responsibility into these fifth and sixth graders.
  • When I was in grade school the books where all well used and outdated. For some books this is hardly a big deal, math for example hasn't changed too much. But my 6th grade history/geography book still had Germany as 2 countries. The wall came down when I was in second grade. This is where electronic books would be awsome, always up to date. Of couses laptops for kids just sounds like a nightmare.
    It would be great if when you walked into class the homework would automaticly be downloaed, and all assign
  • by Pragmatix ( 688158 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @04:54PM (#8989311)
    He spent a lot of time in class AIMing to other people, and generally not paying attention.

    Also a couple kids at the school managed to download massive amounts of Porn onto their laptops.
  • I think the program is great. The computers crash, break, get lost, stolen..Well tht helps the kids learn responsibility. It als helps them get used to technology. Both kids are usually a lot more techno savy than me and Mom, but don't have the paitence to trouble shoot a lot of problems. I not only think it is a good thing to have kids get laptops, I think schools that don't provide them are gettting kids left behind. As far as the kids being distracted, the net access in the school is heavily monitored, and any linking to banned sites gets the pc's frozen and they must report to the help desk. I have no problem with the censorship for the kids, in this context censorship actually works. The kids as a whole are very ingenious, creating ways to get around attempts to ban im-ing and the like.
  • by Ra5pu7in ( 603513 ) <ra5pu7in@gm a i l . com> on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @05:47PM (#8989955) Journal
    This is definitely a step to improve the many things people have brought up:

    Weighty backpacks - I remember coming home from high school one day and putting my backpack on a scale. Binder and books only and the thing weighed over 35 pounds!

    Material resources - For a school with 6 periods, at least two teachers covering a subject, and approximately 30 teens per class, it requires 360 textbooks for a single subject. That doesn't take into account unavoidable damage (floods one year caused about 1/3 of the class to need replacement books).

    Revision / new data - Chemistry textbooks still teach the atom with nice even rings of protons around a clump of electrons and neutrons. That was out-of-date how many centuries ago?

    However, the biggest problem is what many here have mentioned -- theft. The only way to make theft unrealistic would be to have the ThinkPads be so completely customized that they have no value to anyone but the student. Pink cases with 60's-style flowers wouldn't stop every thief - though it might be more quickly found and returned, stripped of anything of value. Serial numbers are easily removed. Even if the equipment is restored, the innards may have been ransacked or the data stripped or damaged.

    Providing students with a home computer/system and a portable disk (or even better a USB key) for each textbook is better. However, you are now putting a valuable piece of equipment in homes without the security to keep it there. All it takes is someone who decides that old clunker would pawn for at least another hit or two. Penalizing the student or parents would do nothing to prevent it happening again.

    We're going the right way, but there are an awful lot of roadblocks (mostly criminal minds determined to ruin any good thing) before we get where we need to be.
  • by Aerion ( 705544 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @06:46PM (#8990658)
    At Cincinnati Country Day School [countryday.net], every student from 5th-12th grade must have a laptop (usually a Toshiba Satellite purchased through the school). The outrageous price of such a program is not a problem for most of the students at the school, because compared to tuition it seems pretty insignificant.

    The laptops tend not to be that useful in class. They don't replace textbooks, and they aren't used as an integral part of most classes (other than Digital Photo, I suppose). Certain lab science classes use them, but only because the school also purchased some motion detectors, temperature sensors, and other instruments that interface with the computers--this is pretty much just a novelty, as other, cheaper, things (like thermometers) could be used instead.

    One theory is that the school started the laptop program in order to make it seem more "modern" and "in touch" with technology. Certainly one advantage is that by high school almost all the students are computer literate, having been forced to learn how to use their computers (or at least having been forced to learn how to properly reboot their computers after Windows crashes). And nobody is ever bored during study halls, thanks to the school-wide wireless network. But the laptops are still pretty much unnecessary.

    Theft/loss/damage is also a problem due to the tendency of middle school and high school students to not be very careful with expensive stuff. The damage is easily fixed by the magic of reimaging and warranty coverage, but the theft is a little trickier.
  • Bad Idea (tm) (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ReadParse ( 38517 ) <john@IIIfunnycow.com minus threevowels> on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @09:17PM (#8992082) Homepage
    Yes, folks, this is still a bad idea. I use computers for absolutely everything, but that doesn't mean secondary school students should. They need to learn how to use textbooks. They need to learn how to WRITE... yes, with a PENCIL. They need to learn how to do math without a calculator. And they certainly aren't ready for the school system to just hand them a $1000-1500 pr0n and war3z machine.

    Yes, computer literacy is important. But so is LITERACY. Take away my computer today and ask me to do math or write or research a topic in a Library the old fashioned way, and I won't be happy, but I'll get by. These kids won't if you cover them with electrons at this age.

    RP
  • by Theovon ( 109752 ) on Tuesday April 27, 2004 @10:02PM (#8992382)
    Make an unbreakable device, and a kid will find a way to destroy it. These notebook computers won't last a week.

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