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Super MP3 Will Feature User Tracking 391

An anonymous reader writes "Next generation super MP3 files will support four-channel audio tracks and contain what's dubbed Light Weight Digital Rights Management (LWDRM) code to track it's owner via p2p programs." We've mentioned these multi-channel, DRM-ified MP3s before.
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Super MP3 Will Feature User Tracking

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  • And so... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:41PM (#9036244)
    ...nobody will use it.
    • True, it's not the RIAA that's ripping the CDs, it's the pirates.
      • Re:And so... (Score:3, Insightful)

        True, it's not the RIAA that's ripping the CDs, it's the pirates.

        but that's not the point, the RIAA wants to distribute digital audio securely over the internet. The originals will be in this Super-MP3 format instead of on CDs.

        • Re:And so... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Der Krazy Kraut ( 650544 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:55PM (#9036358)
          And what will prevent pirates from converting their Super-MP3s to another multi-channel format without DRM?
          • by Leffe ( 686621 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:56PM (#9036371)
            Windows Longhorn :-)
            • Re:And so... (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Der Krazy Kraut ( 650544 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @06:53PM (#9036724)
              It doesn't look like some kind of authentication which can only be acquired using some special Windows Longhorn feature is needed to decode the Super-MP3s. How will Longhorn prevent simple file conversion tools from running?
              • Re:And so... (Score:3, Interesting)

                by Blastrogath ( 579992 )
                >How will Longhorn prevent simple file conversion tools from running?

                As far as I know the Super-MP3s don't use longhorn, but if they did:

                If you don't have longhorn the site that sells the songs and all computers that have bought them (and therefore need to have longhorn) will refuse to send you the file. You would be an un-trusted host.

                If you do have longhorn, the file conversion tools are unsighned code. So you can't run them.
        • but that's not the point, the RIAA wants to distribute digital audio securely over the internet. The originals will be in this Super-MP3 format instead of on CDs.

          If you want to transfer data securely over the internet, why not use SSL or a VPN of some sort. I don't see what security has to do with the transfer of a song over the internet though....
    • Re:And so... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 02, 2004 @06:20PM (#9036534)
      the biggest reason it will not be used is exactly why mp3pro is unused.

      if the companies wont upgrade all existing equipment to support it for 100% free then people will not use it.

      I am not going to replace my audiotron, Kenwood car stereo, ipod, and other mp3 enabled devices because of a tiny improvment and added features for some rich asshats.

      Same as DVD replacements coming down the line... they WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED. DVD for video will be here a really long time as consumers get royally pissed when some moron engineer decides to change things every 3 months. the consumer wants to buy something and use it for 5 years or so. and they get pissy when their old stuff does not work in the new.

      this new mp3 will not be accepted, ipod's native format will never get as big as mp3 and is only popular because of the ipod.

      • Re:And so... (Score:3, Insightful)

        you are kidding yourself.

        step 1) only sell new DVD players (they support the old format so no big deal)
        step 2) start selling HD disks 3 weeks before SD disks.
        step 3) reduce the features on the SD disks gradually until there are no features left but maintain the price.
        step 4) when the market gets to 65% penetration of new players (about 3 -5 years from launch) dump SD disks totally.
        • Re:And so... (Score:4, Insightful)

          by peragrin ( 659227 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @08:22PM (#9037145)
          That requires people to buy new items. DVD players came out what 6 years ago, and only in the past year or so has market pentration been high enough to finally displace VCR's. Consumers are only now starting to convert over. If you make them do it again, it will fail miserably. Most want to keep their electronics because they are supposed to be an investment.

          How many people buy new alarm clocks just because a new feature is added?
          How many people have bought HDTV even though you have been able to for years
          How many people have just starting to put together home theater systems??

          90% of america makes less than 100,000 a year. By the time you add up cars, house, kids there just isn't much left for electronics.
        • Re:And so... (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward
          you're in a dream world...

          if you think that any org can control the gigantic China manufacturing machine that makes all the big companies look like tiny corner stores, then you live on a different planet than me.

          VCD, a format that has been here for years but ignored in the USA until the influx of Cheap china DVD players... Now VCD is taking off in the USA as the format for home users. (a SVCD looks great and costs $0.03 US compared to the cheapest DVD-R at $1.80 plus has a LOWER compatability in set top p
          • Re:And so... (Score:5, Informative)

            by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @10:33PM (#9037743) Homepage Journal
            Errors:

            LD players were still made until 2002:
            http://home.q03.itscom.net/nsa/PioneerLD-S9 .htm

            According to a test of several hundred models at DVDrhelp.com, DVD-R has a 90+% compatibility rate.

            Good DVD blanks can be purchased for under $1 a piece in quanities of 25 or so.

            One CAN get an HD-ready TV now, 27" for a little over $500 - from Samsung and a couple other players, some widescreen 30" HD-ready sets go for under $1000. The difference in even such a "small" set is that it is a progressive scan TV - very much reduced flickering. I find it highly amusing that geeks clutch to an interlaced TV set when I'm sure they probably wouldn't tolerate using interlaced modes on their computer monitors.

            Some of the DVD players with best high-end value are in the $200 to $500 range, particularly those with a Faroudja DCDi deinterlacer and a Matsushita MPEG decoder. There are simply no equivalents that use these parts made by the Chinese names. All it takes is a side-by-side comparison to see the difference. All it takes is comparing any chinese player with any one of the higher rated models in the Secrets DVD shoot-out, many of which street or have streeted in the $200 to $400 range. These sites also have neat pictures of the kind of flaws that DVD players generate, often the cheaper the player, the more of these flaws it has.

            Frankly to say that a $30 player is as good as a $5000 Denon is silly, I can see MPEG decoding flaws in my sister's $50 player on a 15 year old 19" TV with an RF input that don't show up on my Pioneer or Panasonic DVD players on a 27" screen or XGA projector fed with a component video source. That DVD player uses the same ESS decoding MPEG chip as most of the cheap Chinese players.

            Secrets DVD player shoot-out 2004 [hometheaterhifi.com]
            Secrets DVD player shoot-out 2002-2003 [hometheaterhifi.com]

            Test materials for the benchmarks [hometheaterhifi.com]
      • by tentimestwenty ( 693290 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @11:00PM (#9037873)
        The parent poster has got the thinking right. I run a record/CD store so I have lots of opportunity to talk with customers about their digital music needs. The basic trends are:

        1. People want vinyl records. They see it as a format from simpler times. They hate CDs for any number of reasons and vinyl lets them just listen to music.
        2. People buy CDs, copy them and sell them back. For those that rip they use MP3 and they don't care about quality. They hate any compressed format other than MP3 because it's one extra choice they don't want to think about.
        3. The only people that are happy with digital music are the ones that have an iPod because they see it has being their whole collection in a little box. People who listen to music on their computer jukebox, or any of the competing portable players complain about the experience for any number of reasons.
        4. The people who do know about DRM or any new formats have sworn to never use them.

        Overall from what I see, the trend is to actively resist any kind of format that requires too much decision making, too much restriction, or which makes too much extra work. This negative wave has extended back against CDs and no one wants the majority of them because they have no physical character. I think from here on out, all new consumer audio and video formats are going to have a huge problem with adoption. The effort to adopt them is well past the acceptable limit of consumers. Need we mention DVD-A or SACD?
          • 4. The people who do know about DRM or any new formats have sworn to never use them.

          How surprising. Almost as surprising as the fact that the industry is doing everything they can to keep the DRM-issue out of the public. People like owning things, owning them for real, just admit it. It's not that hard?

          Subversion is the keyword here. Not to be a zealous troll, but the only way this thing can be put to work, is trough subversion.

          What does that tell you about the basics of this technology?

    • Re:And so... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 02, 2004 @07:08PM (#9036811)
      Sadly, dumb users will use anything the industy can afford to spend a billion dollars to make them use.

      The only hope is if the consumer electronics **industry** rebels against the RIAA MPAA - no one cares about music lovers ... The MPAA and RIAA (with helpfulness from MSoft) want to take control of consumers, yes this is true (see http://www.2600.com/news/0130-flyer/flyer.html). And most governments are in favor of reducing comsumer choice and giving more power to large corporations: the US courts and administration notoriously favor industry over consumers - which is strange for such a liberty loveing individualist country until you remember that these corps. have the status of "legal individuals" ... individuals with rights to their property and several billion$ to pursue court cases when needed!

      Consumers don't have that power ... real flesh and blood indivduals count for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Corporations will always win. Our best bet is to set corporations to feuding and fighting amongst themselves. We need to find allies in other industries and countries. So:

      1) Work to sew contempt and spread distrust between consumer electronics firms and owners of content (of course many have merged - e.g. Sony but many smaller manufacturers have not). Always ask at electronics stores if the equipment is compatible, tell horror stories. If you and your friends are buying gear get them to ask them same questions.

      2) Try to turn music distributors against the RIAA Always ask at the cash if your DVD can be played on your laptop on the plane or if CD tracks can be put transformed and use on your iPod - if they don't know or say no then say: "Oh, hmm damn I like browsing your shelves with the airconditiong and all but these [DVD's||CD's] are so inconvenient". When in a music store add loudly: "Actually on second thought I won't purchase the CD from your store I will look for it at Apple or another online service. Cool to see this place is still going strong!! We used to come here all the time back music stores were the best place to get music. Anyway, sorry these new fangled CD's are way less convenient than the online services". Then toss the pile (of say 5 CD's This works best in a loud voice with a large line behind you - and if you have a friend who will do almost the same thing 2-3 hours later. 10-15 people doing this can make music stores shudder!! One store in our town even put up a sign saying: "Our CDs are not copy protected". They left it up for almost a week.

      3). Always return CD's that don't allow playing on your equipment.

      4). China is a horrific communist regime but thankfully they don't respect IPR laws. Encourage the Chinese consumer electronics industry that does not cooperate with US content makers. If .cn makers of equipment can make a buck selling gear that doesn't build in all the DRM features they will keep doing it. The US will be forced to ban the imports in a big visible way, it will bug people, it will become an issue.

      5). If buying a computer always ask at the store if it runs Linux. If they haven't and they won't let you test a knoppix disk and watch the boot up messages. Leave the knoppix disk in the store (in a small paper CD case with the URL to the site on it) and say: "you guys should test your systems for linux, I am (or my brother my girlfriend is) a computer science major and the machine *HAS* to dula boot and run linux. It's 2004! this is crazy!" (unlike the record store don't be loud though say it sort of sympathetic in a confused voice ... as if you were in a restaurant reading a menu and they only sold porridge). If they say they have a policy against linux or something say: "wow it must be hard for you guys". If they then make a smart ass comment like: "no, everyone buys windows". Just chuckle softly and say "everyone?" ... then walk out or phone a friend on your cell and say: "No don't meet me here actually, they say
      • Vive la revolution (Score:3, Insightful)

        by waxxie ( 544732 )
        Being that the US is a Constintutional Republic and not a Constintutional Democracy, the rights of big business far outweigh the rights of the individual.

        Now if you really wanted to "mix" things up... Imagine if everyone in North America where to register themselves as a corporation, you'd pay less tax AND have more rights (the ones that the big corporations have, that you the citizen dont have). You would be able to deduct all living expenses and only pay tax on any profit at the end of the year. Of cour
  • by haxor.dk ( 463614 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:42PM (#9036246)
    ...but this seems like a perverted 1984-vision. Whats next, death penalty for P2P sharing ?

    Are there more of our privacies the corp execs want to relieve us of ?!
    • I am guessing that a law will be passed that will make it illegal to pass around somebody's else email, specifically a corporation's e-mail. IOW, you will not be allowed to forward or mention anything that was sent to you.

      But that it just a guess based on how laws are being created.
  • by MikeXpop ( 614167 ) <{moc.rabworcder} {ta} {ekim}> on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:42PM (#9036247) Journal
    Really, who's going to use these things if they have DRM? The average person doesn't care a whole lot about quality (see how fast wma, vorbis, and AAC have caught on?). Throw DRM of any kind into the mix, and it just won't catch. .MP3 is here to stay for awhile.
    • 90% of all computer users as soon as it is a default format in Windows Media Player (not saying that that is a likely thing to happen). Windows XP phoning home hasn't stopped it from being widely accepted, now has it?
      • by Sycraft-fu ( 314770 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:56PM (#9036363)
        That's not happening. Windows Media files already have a DRM system, a pretty good one (from the control prospective, not from the user perspective) from all accounts. They also already support 5.1, 24-bit sources, and lossless compression. I think it's pretty unlikely MS will be dropping it in favour of some MP3 standard. This goes double since they've made it an open standard and are trying to get it adopted as the HD-DVD and digital theatre standards.
    • What are you talking about, Vorbis is the best-sounding lossy format I've heard. I get transparent results at quality level 4, which typically averages out to around 120 kbps, beating MP3 hands down. Even when Vorbis has artifacts, they sound much less distracting than MP3 artifacts.
      • You misunderstood me. I meant that despite Vorbis' (and WMA's and AAC's) higher quality, it hasn't been widely accepted by the music sharing public.
      • You and a few other people seem to be making the same mistake about your parent post. He is saying that Vorbis, AAC, and WMA all have superior quality to MP3, yet have failed to catch on. He's just trying to establish the importance of momentum in this market.

        He isn't at all putting down vorbis
    • by qortra ( 591818 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:52PM (#9036328)
      All things being equal, I would agree. This format has no actually value in the community. However, this format has one huge advantage; name recognition. Look at the new Napster: absolutely no advantage over any other existing service, but it did a great deal of business because people recognized the name. There's a very good posibility that soon, people will want to be able to say they have a "super mp3 player" because they think it makes them sound cool, and people just know the 'mp3' name.

      I hope you're right, but I'm not sure you are.
    • Really, who's going to use these things if they have DRM?

      Of course when they're marketed to Joe User, they're not going to count on DRM as a selling point. They're going to count on the multi-channel capabilities to sell the file format to the average user. There's no mistake that these two "features" are paired together.

  • What use is 5.1... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Capt'n Hector ( 650760 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:43PM (#9036253)
    What use is 5.1 if CDs (most anyway) only have 2 channels?
    • by WindBourne ( 631190 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:51PM (#9036320) Journal
      who said that next generation music will have only 2 channels? RIAA are looking for a reason to have another generation of CDs. Improved quality is the reason to buy new CDS. Unless indi music really catches on, ppl will just be like sheep and do it.
      • Except thats bucking even more tradition - from LPs to tape to compact disks, music has been stereo. While 5.1 is making advances in home theater, its not as prevelant in home stereo (mostly because there are so few releases for it, granted). My main complaint is that a recording optimized for 5.1 will sound like crap in stereo (i've noticed this mostly with blues and jazz remasters for 5.1). Sure, Joe Average may eventually move their home stereo to 5.1, but headphones are here to stay, and, for that reaso
      • by BCoates ( 512464 )
        Wasn't Quad sound (for music) tried in the 70s and a total flop?
      • by pla ( 258480 )
        who said that next generation music will have only 2 channels?

        Count the ears.

        Although you could make a good argument for 2.1ch (the ".1" to give the bass "feel" of a live performance), having more than two channels really only makes a difference for content designed for more than a single listener at a time.

        For watching a movie, something people usually do (at home, anyway) in small groups, you want good sound quality for a wide area of the room. At least the width of a typical sofa, and the depth of
    • Yeah, no joke.

      MP3 cannot be changed. Get it? If they want to make a new super-awesome audiophile-and-RIAA-friendly format, they're going to have to name it something else.
    • What use is 5.1 if CDs (most anyway) only have 2 channels?

      ... are a few uses I can think of off the top of my head. DVD-A and SACD are both hi-fidelity audio formats, and just because it's an MP3 doesn't mean that it has to be used for music. It could be used for an audio track for a movie file.

  • by lightspawn ( 155347 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:43PM (#9036257) Homepage
    Somebody please write conversion software so I can batch-convert all my MP3s to this new and exciting format which will offer me as a consumer many exciting new capabilities!

    Man, I'd better start saving up for a new Super MP3 player...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:43PM (#9036260)
    Allthough i won't go into a discussion on quality of certain files, remember mp3-pro, suppose to be better quality at 64kbits audio compression. It failed complety, based on the fact that most hardware devices now support mp3's (car stereo's, portable devices) and at 192~+kbits it sounds like cd quality, i don't think people are willing to change.
  • by thedillybar ( 677116 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:44PM (#9036264)
    There are plenty of alternatives to the standard MP3.

    This one will not be widely used by consumers if it has a light-weight tracking mechanism embedded in it. We'll simply use one of the others. Not to mention, there will always be players (and converters) that disable the tracking and convert to a more well-accepted format.

    But maybe it's a step in the right direction. We'll see what becomes of it. My guess...absolutely nothing.

  • And? (Score:3, Informative)

    by FroBugg ( 24957 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:44PM (#9036268) Homepage
    Wow, four whole tracks. That's about two hundred and fifty one fewer than Ogg Vorbis, if I recall correctly.
    • Re:And? (Score:5, Funny)

      by sahonen ( 680948 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @06:03PM (#9036425) Homepage Journal
      Let's see, what to do with 255 tracks... 27 channel surround, the corners, edge midpoints and face midpoints of a cube around the listener, including one inside the listener for those subliminal message effects. Plus a ".1" sub channel at each of those points. And heck, a tweeter channel at each of those points as well. And... umm, every single instrument in the mix gets a separate channel so you can Mix-It-Yourself (tm).

      That's strange, I didn't know it also had a channel that sounded like it was coming from the upstairs neighbors...
      • Re:And? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by wouterke ( 653865 )
        What are you suggesting then? Agreed, 255 is probably more than we'll need in the near future, but who is to say what technology will be able to do in the future?

        "640kB? Hell, that's more than anyone will ever need".

        Limits suck. Crazy high limits suck less, but still do. Silly low limits suck majorly.

        a 4-track format falls in the "silly low" category in my book. a 255-track one doesn't.
        • Re:And? (Score:3, Insightful)

          by bergeron76 ( 176351 ) *
          I think the point is that someone needs to write some "conversion" code that will take 4 track audio from XYZ format (or better yet, a 4 channel analog source) and turn it into 4 OGG tracks. I think OGG is pretty ubiquitous in that it can scale nicely while other technologies catch up to it (less the DRM "enhancements", of course).

  • Riiiiight... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Noryungi ( 70322 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:45PM (#9036271) Homepage Journal
    Let's see Super-MP3's will incorporate a lightweight DRM?

    How long is it going to take to have a converter that transforms Super-MP3s into normal MP3s, with the DRM stripped?

    How long until someone incorporates this into, say, xmms or lame, so that the conversion is actually totally transparent to the user?

    Gentlemen... start your compilers!
  • Ok... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by protocol420 ( 758109 ) <protokolNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:45PM (#9036275) Homepage Journal
    So another good reason to use OGGs. I never trust any non-open-licenced formats (it's all an illuminati plot).
  • MP3Pro (Score:4, Funny)

    by metalhed77 ( 250273 ) <andrewvc&gmail,com> on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:46PM (#9036283) Homepage
    I hope this will be as sucessful as MP3PRo.
  • by ameoba ( 173803 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:46PM (#9036284)
    What's to stop the community from making some sort of DRMless multi-channel MP3/Ogg format? Let the RIAA push their own formatfor their own files, it doesn't force us to use it for our own data. If users demand support for the non-restricted format, media player authors will be forced to either support it or lose customers.
  • by Chucklz ( 695313 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:47PM (#9036291)
    They release it, two days later someone cracks it, writes a nice program to strip the DRM. Seems we've traveled down this road before. If it didn't work the first couple of times, why try again?
    • by _KiTA_ ( 241027 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @06:51PM (#9036719) Homepage
      Because the RIAA, MPAA, and a few other old school companies (Is Qwest vs VOIP next?) are completely incapable of thinking up new tactics to deal with this changing world we live in.

      Instead, they keep repeating their same old tricks. Hard to copy media isn't anything new, that's one of the major reasons they moved from casettes to CDs, because no one could easily copy them. They're just trying to extend that old trick to digital media, and it's failing badly.

      Thus reveals problem #2 with these groups. They are NOT used to people competing with them, yet alone their own customers. That is why you see people look so dumbfounded when people aren't content to just sit back and accept what is fed to them. (For example, that RIAA guy who muttered "un-fucking-believeable" when he saw that some "random college idiot" had dared to break their CSS cash cow.)

      Rather than see their customers quietly put up with the record companies and the movie companies putting out some horribly self-serving content like they have so many times before, they're seeing us turn on them and use every bit of our skills to bypass and ignore their self-serving bits. You can see this in a few dozen ways:

      1. Our own audio and video format that lack DRM to contest their digital versions of disposable dvds. (OGG and XviD/OGM)
      2. P2P, which is a direct result of them trying to put out 1 or 2 good songs on a CD and force us to buy them. (iTunes store is the ultimate end result of this, and they're trying to kill that too by forcing Apple to bundle songs.)
      3. Distributed and Encrypted P2P like Gnutella and WASTE, to fight them trying to make the very act of sharing content online illegal. (I consider attacks on P2P to be more of an attack on indy music and artists who don't mind their content being shared. Who would buy Metalijoke when there are 50 other small bands better than them who'd love to just be heard?)
      4. Distributed projects in countries that haven't yet been "DMCA-afied", to fight them trying to destroy fair use.

      Of course, they're doing their damnest to try and make the very act of even discussing their tricks illegal.

      So, er, yah. Longer than I expected, but, quick synopsis -- basically, they're trying the same old trick because they're dinosaurs who can't think of anything new.
  • OGG Vorbis (Score:5, Informative)

    by amembleton ( 411990 ) <aembleton&bigfoot,com> on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:49PM (#9036304) Homepage
    Next generation super MP3 files will support four-channel audio tracks

    IIRC OGG Vorbis can support upto 255 channels. Shame its not more mainstream.

    As for the p2p tracking, people may not use it because of this or it may just get cracked.

  • Don't cry.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hot_Karls_bad_cavern ( 759797 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:49PM (#9036305) Journal
    Don't bitch and moan. This is wonderful for independant artists and those listeners that want to make sure where an mp3 came from. Personally i will encourage those recording friends of mine to use this...it's not to keep you from copying/sharing, rather to guarantee quality and authenticity.
  • what about AAC? (Score:5, Informative)

    by JebusIsLord ( 566856 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:50PM (#9036310)
    I cannot see a single legitimate reason why people would dump MP3 for this when they can simply switch to the much better LC-AAC in the mp4 container such as Apple and Nero are using now. 4 channels, optional DRM, standardized tagging (id3 is NOT a part of the mp3 spec people!) and lower bitrates, plus better handling of problematic samples.
  • Great (Score:5, Insightful)

    by metlin ( 258108 ) * on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:50PM (#9036311) Journal
    And just how are they planning on getting these to replace the old MP3s?

    As long as there is a way to encode them in the old way, people will do it. Duh!

    This seems more like an attempy by Fraunhofer to pacify the corporates and "make up" for their follies.

    If the owner who originally purchased the rights to that MP3 file publishes it online in a shared environment, the file will display the original owners digital signature, thus allowing the individuals to be immediately identified.


    And what if the user purchased the rights to an Audio CD containing that track and converted it into a good old MP3?

    This new trackable, un-sharable "Super MP3" may be an attempt by the Fraunhofer Institute to make amends with the disgruntled music industry.

    Are they going to sue all the existing MP3 players if they don't change into the new format? Now *that* would be funny.

    Bite me.

    The can of worms is open, you are not going to be able to contain piracy this way. Change the way music (and media in general) is being sold - think up a new business model, the old one has been proven time and again not to work.

    And guess what? Tracking users or preventive DRM is not the solution.

    What are they going to do if I changed the ID of my MP3 to reflect that of someone else? How long is it going to take to crack this thing? A week? A month?

    Sheesh. Won't these people ever learn? What beats me is that smart research institutes like FI are coming up with crap like this.
    • Re:Great (Score:3, Insightful)

      ...Sheesh. Won't these people ever learn? What beats me is that smart research institutes like FI are coming up with crap like this...

      Yes, but that is what they are paid to do by the music industry. RIAA management keeps telling them to come up with uncrackable DRM, and if it does get cracked, it doesn't matter to the lab, they got paid. As long as the RIAA throws money at this (and let's hope it's a very LONG time) the labs will get major bling-bling (which could be very good for long term research on
  • by Anonymous Coward
    REALLY! P2P IS DEAD!

    They are adding some bits to the file to track the original owner! Think of how serial numbers, product activation, and dongles are so uncrackable!

    Oh wait...

    serial numbers (think: photocopy machine, IRC .nfo files)

    product activation (see: Windows XP and NAV 2004)

    dongles (think: AutoCAD and the # of BBS's that had cracks the next day a version came out back when dongles were used)

    Yawn. It will be cracked. And Cat, meet Bag, the brown paper one you just came out of. 12 year old k

  • by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:51PM (#9036325) Homepage
    I really don't care about multi-channel. I spend 95% of my time listening to music listening to my iPod (only two channels, only two ears). The rest of the time I'm listening in the car (which is noisy, and multi-channel music won't do me much good). I don't care about multi-channel music. The only thing I see it as any good for would be the BGM in computer games or something like that. I don't want it.

    That said, I would LOVE multi-track audio files. I would love to be able to press a button to disable the vocal track, or turn down the volume on the guitar track, or turn up the base track, or whatever. Basically like the tracks you see in Frequency or Amplitude on the PS2. There are many times I would love to be able to turn off the vocals, or turn UP the vocals to hear them over the rest of the music.

    I would love this for TV too. I would love to be able to turn up the dialog track, or turn down the sound effects. Or my idea: turn OFF THE DAMN LAUGH TRACK.

    THIS is the feature I want. Give music like this and files to store it in, and I'll be happier. Don't give me something I can't use. If you want me to swallow DRM (even LIGHT DRM) give me something that I want in exchange, not something useless.

    • Not all recordings are multitrack or can have tracks removed without affecting the song. Beyond all the live recordings, one track with a loud moment (drum or guitar sound) may hide where they merged two vocal takes. Often a vocal only track has a quiet demo track or rhythm guitar in the background; or simply a click track that is audable when you kill everything else.

      Bemani and Freq/Amp songs are recorded quite differently than normal studio sessions.

      As for TV, you can turn off the laugh track quite eas

  • by Ghengis ( 73865 )
    That's all fine with me. It's simple. I just wont use them. :)
  • What are you going to do with 4 channels?
    Everybody has ether 1 channel (mono), 2 channels, or 5 channels. (or maybe 7 in some rare cases.) Who has 4???

    Unless you're one of those people with quadraphonic surrond, but that whole idea is based around processing two channels anyway...

    so... wtf?
  • by UPAAntilles ( 693635 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:55PM (#9036356)
    Anything you play over speakers can be recorded. If you really need to share those files go ahead and rerecord them. Time consuming? Yes. But infinitely better than a lawsuit.

    Of course, just about everyone reading this comment already knows that.
  • Announcing... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jedrek ( 79264 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @05:55PM (#9036361) Homepage
    eMule, eMulePlus, BitTorrent, iMesh, Soulseek, etc, etc... now featuring auto Super MP3 DRM stripping.
  • by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @06:00PM (#9036402) Homepage
    Sure looks like it... so tell me:

    1) Won't they be trivial to remove?
    2) What will happen when the next Internet worm shares your watermarked files?

    This is about as realistic as going after people whose registration keys show up at serialz sites. "Why your company was issued the 'Devil's Own' key, please pay us X kazillion billion dollars for pirated copies of Windows using your serial".

    Do you see it happen? No. But you can bet that this racketering will happen. It's like some lawsuits I've been hearing about, US companies sue companies overseas for hacking their network, even though they both know "they" didn't do it, only their trojaned machines.

    It'll be the same thing with RIAA vs individuals. Even if you didn't to anything, the cost to settle is cheaper than hiring a lawyer. I would never get any of these simply for the legal liability they could get me in.

    Kjella
  • I think they needed a way to say "This song is copyrighted. The RIAA is coming to get you" without corrupting the quality of the MP3 music itself (artists would get upset).

    That way all RIAA approved players that support the limited DRM only plays the last two tracks while WinAmp plays them all.

    Just think, RIAA in my rear channels with Metallica in the front. Woo hoo!
  • Use Responsibly (Score:2, Insightful)

    by nacturation ( 646836 )
    I didn't read the article (surprise!) but this sounds fairly reasonable. Attach a unique ID to an MP3 file that says "John Doe" purchased it. As long as John Doe uses it responsibly, he can take advantage of all kinds of fair use, record it to other media, etc. that he could with an unprotected MP3 file.

    This is like arguing against certain types of guns because the FBI can do ballistics analysis on the spent casing and wear patterns of the round in order to match the bullet lodged in the dead victim with
    • Re:Use Responsibly (Score:3, Interesting)

      by zerocool^ ( 112121 )
      Shouldn't people be arguing for guns which don't leave any traceable patterns?

      I'd imagine if guns origionally were untraceable, as far as bullet markings, and a private industry wanted to add a watermark feature that scored the bullet such that it was identifiable, people would argue against it. It was a natural property found through forensic evidence.

      Aside from which, dude, it's a murder scene versus a copied MP3. Jesus, it's not even in the same league.

      ~Will
    • Re:Use Responsibly (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Grishnakh ( 216268 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @07:27PM (#9036910)
      Here's the problem:

      You might want to share your MP3 with your friend. This is fully legal under the Audio Home Recording Act. Then, your friend gives a copy to his friend. Then, that person uploads it on a P2P network, and suddenly people all over the world have it. The RIAA gets a copy, tracks it to you, and gets you arrested. Now you're liable for untold dollars in damages. But all you did was give a single copy to your friend, which as I said is fully legal, but you can't prove that you're not the one who uploaded it to the P2P network. So this tag has basically changed our justice system, making you guilty until proven innocent. This is wrong.

      The gun analogy is silly. If you lend your gun to someone, there's still only one gun. If they commit a crime with it, the bullet can be traced to your gun, but there might be evidence to corroborate your story that you lent it to a friend. It's not possible for that friend to make millions of identical copies of the gun and pass them around the world for free. And you'd be stupid to lend your gun out like that anyway. MP3s aren't capable of killing people, even though the media cartels would like us to believe it's worse to copy music than to kill people, since copying affects their profit margin.

  • we'll just put MP3Jon on it right away...

    Bring it on...

  • by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @06:13PM (#9036494) Homepage Journal
    And its not an issue.

    If at some point we cant use old style mp3 for some unforseen reason, then we us something else entirely.

    Sharing is a moving target, and all this nonsence to try to control it just causes the target to move even faster.

    Be it right or wrong, its going to persist... 'The man' best get over it and move on..
  • by Mr. Ophidian Jones ( 653797 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @06:21PM (#9036541)
    every content provider is looking to incorporate more and more DRM as the quality, cost, and ease of creation of copies improves.

    the music industry doesn't care about people copying songs off the radio. it didn't even really get its panties in a bunch when CD-Rs first hit the market. or when mp3s hit the ftp servers. It went ballistic when anyone could download a single application and instantly find a never ending stream of perceptibility loss-less perfect digital copies.

    likewise with the MPAA and DVD encryption, likewise with the new Cable Set-top standard.

    They want to cut out MythTV, Tivo, splitters, H-cards, and cable descramblers. It's becoming too easy to get at the current data, so they want a change.

    with the analog system working (fairly) well as is, why else would they create a new 'standard' for the digital system? It certainly isn't in the interest of the consumer.

    Why doesn't Sony support the Blu-Ray with its stock rewritable feature?
    Why did Disney/Circuit City/et al try to push (the bad) Divx onto the market in the first place?

    It isn't because consumers are clamoring for less control or cheaper movies.

    The time is coming when content producers are going to have to realize that their profits will no longer come from format-updates (repurchasing 8-tracks as CDs, VHS classics as DVDs, etc), and will -not- come from service-style access to data. Classic TV advertising may even have to give way to pure product-placement campaigns.

    Cable will realize that a move to pay-per-channel is the way to support content without advertising in our new time-shifted digital reality. Some people -will- pay $1/mo for TLC. Home Depot will still pay for product placements in Trading Spaces. Maybe the Super-station will go away - but the cable companies, and popular channels, need not.

    the film industry has already shown that the theatre experience is not losing out to cheap cam copies. they've learned that feature-rich dvds or dirt-cheap dvds are preferred to the customer over hacked-together recompressed copies on filesharing networks.

    The record companies will need to realize that to win with digital music requires providing the best quality, with the least hassle. They will need to realize that they must beat file-sharing on features. People will give up hunting around for a good (not mislabeled)256kbps rip of Britney's newest song - if they know they can just hit iTunes or its ilk and cough up $1.

    Fair Use needs to win out. These purported 'losses' from file-sharing need to be revealed to be grossly overestimated fabrications. (A PSA from a supposed union set painter claiming that file sharing is killing the movie industry, and threatening his job - airing during it's highest grossing year of all time is particularly tactless)

    DRM is the tool of the content dinosaur. If they concentrated on actual content piracy rings - where big money is being made off black-market copies, and abandoned their fruitless DRM research - their profits could be higher than ever.

    But such is not the reaction of anti-competitive cabals. Being forced to -compete- is not what they do. Suing, threatening, bullying, bribing - these are the blunt instruments they wield instead of the precise tools of innovation, imagination and competition.

    So in the meantime - expect every advance to carry DRM in the fine print.
    • You are suffering from a rather selective memory, there. When radio came out, the music industry lost its mind, thinking that if you could hear a record on the radio, you'd never go to the store and buy it (WRONG!). They lost it again when recordable tapes came out, thinking that all the taping from the radio would end the industry, and we had to hear it from them again when CD-R came out-- the argument then being that CD quality is so much higher, that it's different than analog tapes.

      I agree with many of
  • by crashnbur ( 127738 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @06:27PM (#9036568)
    ...so one album can be spliced into one MP3 with 10, 12, or however many tracks, allowing navigation through an album without those annoying pauses between tracks -- especially on MP3 CDs.
  • by Orion Blastar ( 457579 ) <orionblastar.gmail@com> on Sunday May 02, 2004 @06:27PM (#9036572) Homepage Journal
    #1 Learn how the Super MP3 file format works.

    #2 Collect information on your enemies.

    #3 Insert that information into various Super MP3 files and strip out your information.

    #4 Share files on web sites or P2P file sharing networks using an alias on a system that is not yours. Like upload files from a library, college, rental system (Kinko's, CyberCafe, etc using an fake ID to get access to the system, wear a disguise too).

    #5 Sit back and watch the RIAA punish your enemies for you.
  • by Lord Kano ( 13027 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @06:44PM (#9036680) Homepage Journal
    My favorite musician is retired. I bought and ripped to MP3 all of his existing albums already.

    But hey, at least we'll be able to find out who has been distributing Jessica Simpson and Backdoor Boys MP3s and beat the hell out of them.

    LK
  • by bgeer ( 543504 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @07:20PM (#9036878)
    "Hi I'm Troy McLure and this is LightWeight DRM: Content delivered your way. You may remember me from such brand resuscitation films as How Asbestos saves YOUR CHILDREN from burning to death or Firestone Tires: Now with 33% less explosive power"
  • MP3s....again? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by WheelDweller ( 108946 ) <WheelDwellerNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday May 02, 2004 @07:38PM (#9036959)

    Isn't this the same format for which we are to pay, while .ogg files eclipse them? Let me get this straight- we're PAYING to give out personal information?

    Put another notch in the bedpost for the Microsoft mindset.

  • Very well. (Score:3, Informative)

    by Jerk City Troll ( 661616 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @07:46PM (#9036990) Homepage

    Why don't we just stick with Ogg Vorbis audio compression for our file trading needs?

  • by dark-br ( 473115 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @07:53PM (#9037015) Homepage
    10 DRM coders working 9-5 vs 10 million "pirates" working nights and weekends.

  • by not_bio ( 713320 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @09:28PM (#9037498)
    I am sure it will take less than a week, err make that hour, to figure out how to spoof it. Another 2 days for some GUI guid spoofer tool to be published. Probably 5 days to figure out the guid of some famous person who uses this stuff. 10 days before everyone is just hacking the guid flag to make it look like it came from said famous person. 3 weeks for slashdot to pic up the story :P
  • 5.1? Who cares (Score:4, Insightful)

    by retro128 ( 318602 ) on Sunday May 02, 2004 @10:20PM (#9037695)
    I'm not exactly up to date on the latest music that's being released, but last I checked CD's were still being released in stereo, and seeing as how standard players are only capable of decoding 2-channel, 16 bit, 44.1kHz PCM streams that's the way it's going to be for a long time, if not forever.

    DVD's are another story. I'm sure the \AUDIO_TS directory could hold some 5.1 music, but I've yet to see it being used. There'd be a small market if so. Would people really buy the super whizbang 5.1 version of their favorite music that will only run on their DVD player, given that they listen to CD's in their cars, discmans, etc?

    And now to the crux of the problem. Since there is no 5.1 music out unless you are ripping it straight from a movie, why does SuperMP3 matter to p2p, or anything for that matter? IMHO, it doesn't - for straight music files.

    Possibly, however, it might make a difference with DVR's. In the distant future, when all TV is HD and all audio is 5.1, DVR's will perhaps encode to SuperMP3 to save space and keep the 5.1 channels. Will this matter to p2p? Only if you rip the movie out of the box and place it on the 'Net.

    Regardless, SuperMP3 will probably end up being yet another case study on why DRM doesn't work.

  • by Nice2Cats ( 557310 ) on Monday May 03, 2004 @02:00AM (#9038449)
    ...I don't think anybody will be using any format for anything anymore, let alone buying CDs. Has anybody listened to the Top 10 in their country the last few months and actually liked something their heard?

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