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Music Media Science

Loud Music Can Cause Lung Collapse 68

Posted by timothy from the but-so-can-bad-movies dept.
ahrenritter writes "This Reuters article discusses a report in the medical journal Thorax describing the cases of three young men who suffered a lung collapse (pneumothorax) apparently triggered by standing too close to very loud concert speakers. A fourth case occurred in a car that was outfitted with a 1,000 watt bass box. I guess deafness isn't all we have to worry about now!"
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Loud Music Can Cause Lung Collapse More

Loud Music Can Cause Lung Collapse

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  • That's a new error on me- so I guess I'll create one. Heavy Metal and Punk Rock is supposed to be about PAIN- I guess this gives a whole new meaning to the term "Slam Dancing"

  • Dr. Seuss (Score:4, Funny)

    by Rufus88 ( 748752 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:01PM (#10143088)
    a report in the medical journal Thorax

    I wouldn't trust anything in a medical journal made by Dr. Seuss. [weeklyasteroid.com]

  • The Scene is an Outdoor Concert (Score:5, Funny)

    by Picass0 ( 147474 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:01PM (#10143091) Homepage Journal
    Guy #1: Hey, I'm having a hard time breathing!

    Guy #2: What!?!

    • Shakespeare quote... (Score:5, Funny)

      by CaptainPinko ( 753849 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:04PM (#10143124)
      <i>Guy #1: Hey, I'm having a hard time breathing!</i>

      Act 2, Scene 5

      JULIET

      How art thou out of breath, when thou hast breath
      To say to me that thou art out of breath?
      The excuse that thou dost make in this delay
      Is longer than the tale thou dost excuse.
      Is thy news good, or bad? answer to that;
      Say either, and I'll stay the circumstance:
      Let me be satisfied, is't good or bad?

  • Loud (Score:3, Interesting)

    by black mariah ( 654971 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:07PM (#10143162)
    I don't think it's fair to place this solely on music. There are many things far louder than your average concert. It's interesting nonetheless. If you've never seen bands like Floor, High on Fire, Khanate, or SunnO))), you really can't understand how sound waves can have that much power. When I saw Floor, my entire body shook. When they'd do sudden stops I felt like I was going to fall over. The only thing I've heard that is louder than them are top fuel (nitromethane powered) dragsters.

    Before you ask, I wear earplugs at every show I go to.

    • Re:Loud (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Neon Spiral Injector ( 21234 )
      I was in an extended cab pickup running 4 18" subs powered by 2400 watts of amps. When I got out I was extremely dizzy. Felt like I had just got off a roller coaster.

      I've also seen top fuellers up close. They are definately louder, but only for 3 seconds.
    • If it's so loud that you have to wear earplugs when you're at a concert.. Doesn't that say something?
      • Yeah. It says the band is loud. What's your point?

      • Re:Loud (Score:3, Funny)

        by cornjchob ( 514035 )
        If it's so loud that you have to wear earplugs when you're at a concert.. Doesn't that say something?

        Ya--you're too damned old!

    • Not a gradual effect (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Pi_0's don't shower ( 741216 ) <ethan@isp.[ ]thw ... u ['nor' in gap]> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:18PM (#10143275) Homepage Journal
      Sound is just a pressure wave through the medium of choice -- in this case air. It seems totally obvious in hindsight that in addition to affecting your ear canals, loud sounds can affect your lungs, especially when you're standing with your face by the source of the air compressions. It's no surprise that sound waves have been used to probe all sorts of cavities, everything from ultrasounds in pregnant women to determining the extent of underground caves. A big sound wave in a small cavity can cause damage -- I wonder why no one thought to apply that reasoning to lungs before? Maybe because the pulmonary cavities are so large compared to, say, the ear? As an aside, this article [medicalposting.ca] talks about the brighter side of sound, that using sound waves at just the right frequency can fight cancer.

    • Re:Loud (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Jerf ( 17166 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:23PM (#10143339) Journal
      I don't think it's fair to place this solely on music. There are many things far louder than your average concert.

      While we'd have to wait for the science to be sure, I think attributing it on the music is fair. Your other loud sounds are noisy, in the spectrum sense. Only music (that I can plausibly think of as a routine occurance) will blast all the energy into a relatively tight frequency distribution. It is very plausible that this could have an effect.

      While the global volume of a drag racer and a loud rock concert maybe the same, I would imagine that the rock concert could have a lot more energy right at, say, 30Hz, and if you're an unlucky smoker who happens to have a resonance frequency in your lungs there, well, that could be a problem.

      (Remember, folks, Star Trek to the contrary most things do not have a strong resonance frequency, especially soft things. However, as you pump more and more energy into some object, even a very weak resonance that would normally never be noticed could be enough to tip you over the edge. Your lungs won't have any strong resonance frequency that someone could play to "tear your lungs apart" at a really low volume level, but if you've already compromised them by smoking you might just rip something in there. Eventually, loud sound starts to look like an explosion from an instantaneous perspective...)

      • Re:Loud (Score:2, Insightful)

        by djsmiley ( 752149 )
        "Your other loud sounds are noisy, in the spectrum sense. Only music (that I can plausibly think of as a routine occurance) will blast all the energy into a relatively tight frequency distribution"

        Pnumatic drills / hammers also do this? Incredablely fast?

        i know that the workmen using theses in the UK must ware ear protection, but now it seems they might need to ware airpressured suits before use too?

        Btw, tbh i been to a fair few concerts, its kinda ovious that its BAD idea to stand near speakers, if anyo

        • Re:Loud (Score:2)

          by Zaak ( 46001 )
          Pnumatic drills / hammers also do this?

          Probably not. The sound of an impact is very localized in time, so it is spread out in the frequency domain. A musical sound is spread out in time, so it can be very localized in frequency.

          TTFN
    • Before you ask, I wear earplugs at every show I go to.

      I did ask, and you just looked at me as if you couldn't hear what I was saying! :)

      • Oddly enough, at shows, I hear voices BETTER with earplugs in. The high end frequencies that muck up my ears don't get in, and the plugs I have don't filter out many voice-level frequencies.
        • ...high frequencies...

          I met a guy once who had been at an Emerson, Lake and Palmer concert back in the day. Their show featured a monster electronic synthesizer, a real one made of tubes, not the fancy digital stuff they have these days. ELP liked to use a lot of high notes, and as this guy was right up next to the speakers, you can guess the rest. He wears a hearing aid now.

          But he said it was a great show ... :)

    • Holy shit. I never thought that anyone on slashdot listened to good music. I have a new found respect for you guys! :D

      what about bands like Jucifer, Japanther, and Lightning Bolt? An albatros? Daughters? Black Dahlia Murder?

  • haven't had problem breathing... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sevinkey ( 448480 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:07PM (#10143168)
    but anyone else ever been at a concert with such low rumbling rediculous bass that you can feel your heart beating a little off?

    this only happened to me with dead voices on air, which uses a rediculous about of computer processing, but this was beyond nautious.
  • may cause severe health problems.

    news at.. nine.

    though, this is certainly 'new' on one level, not so on other.

    (you want to simulate an explosion at the maximum accuracy? i'd rather not)

  • I loved this quote (Score:5, Funny)

    by docbombay ( 722076 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:17PM (#10143265)
    "But so-called primary spontaneous pneumothorax happens in the absence of an underlying disease, typically striking tall, thin, male smokers." So with enough bass, you could wipe out half the kids at any emo concert.
  • What is the resonant frequency (or range of frequencies) which causes the pneumothorax?

    Hey, I see a new weapon on the horizon ;-)

  • Darwinism. (Score:5, Funny)

    by bergeron76 ( 176351 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @04:36PM (#10143532) Homepage

    Pure and Simple.

    • Still, nothing wrong with helping Darwin along some.

      Hey dudes! Go stand by the speaker. It's cool!

      (that chick over there looks like she'd be impressed if you did it)
  • The next time you go to a Disaster Area concert, make sure you have your concrete bunker mapped out ahead of time. You can't just go out to find out where the commode is when the music is playing from 2 planets away!
  • Is there really any way to harness this to make weaponry? Although this particular case only affects people who are generally unhealthy in the first place, how difficult would it really be to use the pressure change to collapse lungs/implode heads/explode entire chest cavities?
  • What about people who work in loud factories? Maybe the ones that are loud enough to warrant some kind of earplugs? Also, The lungs may essentially start to vibrate in the same frequency as the bass, which could cause a lung to rupture. So can we find out what the natural frequency is of human lungs and maybe keep things (speakers) from emitting anything in that frequency to keep the lungs from resonating and then collapsing (like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge)? Or do the lungs just pickup whatever frequency
    • Soft, spongey, squishy structures probably don't have a resonance frequency; if anything, they'd dampen vibrations.

      I think, IIRC, only rigid structures can resonate.

  • Figures (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Transcendent ( 204992 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @07:52PM (#10145043)
    I used to sit in the back of my friend's cougar that has dual 12in 600W kickers (if I'm remembering correctly)... and I used to kinda joke about how it affected my breathing when I was back there...

    ...heh, well, I guess ignorance is bliss.

  • Pneumothorax (Score:5, Interesting)

    by radiashun ( 220050 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:22PM (#10145529)
    I had pneumothorax back in February, but it wasn't sound related. I was in the shower and for no apparent reason I felt as though someone had hit me in the chest with a sledgehammer. I thought it was a heart attack at first, but since I was only 21 I ruled that out as unlikely.

    I waited 3 days before I actually went to the hospital and those were the most agonizing days of my life. I'd run out of breath walking from my apartment to my car (literally, 10 feet). I just had this sharp stabbing pain in the left side of my chest. When I went to the hospital the doctor told me that it was rare spontaneous pneumothorax, and that it usually happened to tall, scrawny males that were smokers (I'm not a smoker). Anyways, 5 hours later I left the hospital with a tube coming out of my chest and a prescription for some Darvocet. I had to keep that tube in my chest to relieve the pressure that was preventing my lung from inflating for 3 days.

    It was really interesting to look at my chest x-rays though. My left lung had completely collapsed! It's never a good thing when doctors are telling everyone that's walking by the computer screen to "Check out how collapsed this lung is!"

    Anyway, I just wanted to give some first hand experience.
    • I too had a spontaneous pneumothorax last November; very strange experience. I'm relatively skinny (~88kg, 192cm tall) 25yo, non-smoker though. I also have a crankin car sound system, so the article makes a bit of sense...
      At the time, the doc offered no reason for it to happen, "it just does".

    • Re:Pneumothorax (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Idarubicin ( 579475 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:14AM (#10148254) Journal
      I waited 3 days before I actually went to the hospital...

      In medicine, these are the words that cause more morbidity and mortality....

      Please, everyone--do yourselves a favour. If you're in such pain that walking ten feet leaves you short of breath, consult a physician. Even if you're apparently young and healthy, it could be a heart attack, or something equally nasty. Millions of years of evolution have given you a sense of pain for a reason. Listen to it--things don't hurt just because God is a sadist.

      Chest pain is one of those things that can really challenge a physician because there are so many potential underlying causes, with widely varying degrees of severity. Sources of symptoms that may be confused with pneumothorax include [statdoc.com], "costochondritis, esophageal origin, myocardial infarction or ischemia, pericarditis, pleurisy, pneumonia, and pulmonary embolus." Self-diagnosis is not recommended. :)

      Particularly for acute circulatory problems (heart attack, stroke) time is of the essence. We've got a lot of really powerful treatments that are rendered essentially useless if you wait several hours. By that time, the tissue you want to save is dead.

    • Glad you're OK now!

      Jon Acheson
    • I had a spontaneous Pneumothorax a few years back. Never knew what, exactly, caused it, but it was just one of those sharp pains in the rib (then shoulder, then chest) that didn't go away and I was smart enough to finally call an ambulance before passing out.

      Only after I was sitting in a hospital recovery room with a chest tube sucking my right lung back into place did the doctors tell me that it's commonly referred to as "the tall, skinny guy's disease" since it affects so many folks that are just that.

  • Hopefully . . . (Score:3, Funny)

    by base3 ( 539820 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @10:21PM (#10145863)
    . . . the punk boys with their $5,000 stereos in $800 cars will start dying from this in droves soon.
    • I've always fantasized about somehow cutting in on their signal and shaking the engine block off the frame with subsonics. Which isn't realistic at all.

      But this sounds pretty good.

  • How to repair a Collapsed Lung (Score:4, Informative)

    by cyranoVR ( 518628 ) * <cyranoVR.gmail@com> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @11:30PM (#10146263) Homepage Journal
    In short, the repairs hurt MUCH more than the injury.

    First they make a small incision and spread the ribs apart. Then take a blunt probe and S L O W L Y punch through the lining inside your chest cavity (pericadium?). No scapel allowed - it might damage delicate tissue.

    Suffice to say, right before they performed the procedure (the tube insertion, to be exact), the doctor encouraged me to scream as loudly as I wanted (they didn't put me under because anaesthesia is too dangerous for this type of "minor" procedure).

    The aftermath is that for a couple days you have a rubber hose coming out of your side that slowly sucks air out, thus re-inflating your lung. Not a lot of fun.

    Moral of the Story: Turn down that music you darn kids! :P
    • Have you ever had a gastro-nasal tube inserted or removed while not under anaesthesia?

      How does it compare to that?

      The most extreme pain I have ever experienced was due to me skipping some pain killers after having a RPLND (Retro-Peritoneal Lymph Node Dissection) [acor.org]. Lovely operation that, having the muscle layers in your stomach cut and waiting for them to repair isn't fun.
      • NG tube removal is bad, but not THAT bad (hopefully you got to have a few hits of morphine, fentanyl or some other opiate before they yanked it). My mother had an NG tube inserted once sans anesthesia (to relieve acute pressure from an intestinal blockage) - that was very painful. However, she has also had interventional radiology procedures similar to this, where they inserted tubes to drain an infected abscess in her liver with only mild painkiller, no anesthesia. By her account, having a large tube po

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