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Television Media Education Science

Science Television: Does Joe Public Care? 423

AVIDJockey writes "Wired News has an article about a new science television network. As someone who is a fan of TV shows that lack a shiny veneer of stupid, such as those found on UWTV, UCTV and ResearchChannel, I've wondered if hard science or technology programming will ever catch on with the general public. What do you think?"
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Science Television: Does Joe Public Care?

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  • by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:01PM (#10541407)

    ...from Star Trek.

    • Looks like... you also learned... how to type.......... from Shatner.......
    • by MagicDude ( 727944 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @08:06PM (#10541842)
      It is a funny comment, but there is some truth in it. Hard science doesn't have to be hard and boring. Hard and boring is what drives people away. Shows like Mr. Wizard, Beekman's World, and Bill Nye the Science Guy have been reasonably successful in terms of presenting scientific content to the mass public. Granted, those were geared towards kids, but it could be applied to a more mature audience. The point is that you have to present "interesting" science. Nobody cares about fourier transforms and such. You have to present concepts without bogging down in details. For example, I would be interested in learning how a shuttle launch is planned and what are the general parameters that influence a flight plan, but I am not interested in knowing how to calculate the necessary roll variance needed to compensate for the axial plane deviation due to Frinkinson's drag in the lower stratosphere. (I made all of that up BTW). Give people the interesting bits, and they'll develop an interest to learn more on their own.
      • by shirai ( 42309 ) * on Friday October 15, 2004 @08:44PM (#10542028) Homepage
        Can Sciend and fun be put together? The answer in Two Words:

        Myth Busters
        • by shirai ( 42309 ) * on Friday October 15, 2004 @08:55PM (#10542073) Homepage
          I don't think I've ever replied to my own post before but I had to do a case in point with just the last episode I saw:

          1. They were trying to prove that frozen chickens and thawed chickens cause the same amount of damage when fired through the front glass of a high speed train. To do this, they built a compressed air canon and fired frozen and thawed chickens through the glass of an airplane cockpit window, blocks of something (foam?) and sheets of glass. The conclusion was that frozen chickens actually did have more penetrating power.

          3. (One of the funniest), they were trying to prove that you can't die from pissing on the tracks of an electric powered train. Or re-proving it. They get responses back that you could by peeing on an electric fence. Their conclusion was that you could get a mild shock from peeing at extremely close range on an electric fence. And by the way, they actually set up a fence and the guy actually peed on it. Funny stuff, all while exploring Science in the process.

          3. That cell phones cannot cause explosions at gas stations. They did this by filling up a contained block with gas fumes and had the phone ring in the container and in a deseperate attempt even shorted out the battery multiple times. No explosion by the way. Of course, to prove that the container would actually explode, they blew it up anyways.
          • by NOLAChief ( 646613 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @10:57PM (#10542598)
            About the, erm, shocking railroad experience, I saw the first one where they had the dummy basically holding the energized rail before he got fried. Based on shall we say...personal...observations, I'm not so sure that they were correctly modeling the biology/physics involved. IIRC, they basically uncorked a reservoir in their dummy and let it flow based on the pressure head. The bladder is actually pressurized through muscle contraction, imparting a greater exit velocity. This appears to result in the continuous stream they had such a hard time reproducing, thus resulting in an extra tasty crispy wang.

            That said, it's hilarious to watch these guys try to kill themselves (after all, they're what we call "professionals") just to prove how stupid people can be, but I wouldn't necessarily go to them for a rigorous course in the scientific method.

          • by danila ( 69889 ) on Saturday October 16, 2004 @05:19AM (#10543509) Homepage
            In my view, the point of science TV programs is not to correct some misconceptions people have - it's to educate them about science and create a positive attitude towards it so that they can apply the scientific method (and basic critical thinking, scepticism and rationalism) to resolve these misconceptions themselves when need arises.

            The point is not to give them more "I saw it on TV" ammo when discussing whether peeing on an electric fence is dangerous, the point is (or rather should be) to make intelligent human beings out of the general populace. For this particular example they would need to have a general understanding of what electricity is and how it works, what matter and energy are, in what areas of agriculture, law-enforcement, military, etc. electric and other fences are used and why, how the power is generated, what is air, what is urine, how it is generated in the human body, what is waste, what people eat in different parts of the world...

            And I (or any educated person) can go on and on about what fields of human knowledge are related and I have a sufficient understanding in most of them to be able to either know the answer myself with a sufficient degree of certainty (though hearing experimental results can still be useful), can judge the stories presented elsewhere, evidence that is available and claims that are made based on it, and can apply the knowledge more widely than just not pissing on the fence or having some fun pretending to be educated while watching some crap on TV.

            Most of presumably scientific content on TV is crap (depends on the country/TV channel, etc.). Rarely is the right thing done as it requires such a gagrantuan effort and such a unique combination of skills that those few people who manage this are treated as heroes (Carl Sagan, Sergey Kapitsa).
      • by gidds ( 56397 ) <slashdot&gidds,me,uk> on Friday October 15, 2004 @09:35PM (#10542251) Homepage
        It just needs to be approached in the right way.

        To take your example: if you present Fourier transforms as a series of integrals, then it might not be too interesting. But as a way of moving between time and frequency domains, they're something we use without knowing it all the time.

        Your inner ear effectively does Fourier transforms! It takes a sound wave in, and has tiny hairs that vibrate at different frequencies, each one triggering a different nerve impulse. Similarly, the spectrum analyser, tone controls or graphic equaliser on your hi-fi system are working in the frequency domain. Piano keyboards, radio tuners, synthesisers, and many other things are all concerned with Fourier transforms and their effects. Most of use think of sound in the frequency domain!

        Even if you restrict yourself to the mathematics, they underpin MP3 and pretty much all forms of audio compression; JPEG, MPEG and many forms of graphic compression; the circuitry behind CD players (those digital filters), and so on.

        I'm sure a good director could come up with a really fascinating programme about them!

      • It doesn't have to be boring, but it's...you know...hard.

        Hence the name? Lot's 'o math. A lot of people find things boring if they can't understand them immediately. Soft science - applied sciences - are easier to visualize and have fun with. Easy, not as useful, and you can learn it faster reading a book, usually. Why bother with it if all we can get is the easy stuff?

        What would happen if they started trying?

        Hey kids! Today we're learning about the impulse function. It's got an infinite height, no width. an area of one, and is on the y-axis in a rectangular cartesian coordinate system! Yay!

        Now lets go make our own impulse functions, with the help of this infinitely long sheet of construction paper and scissors that can cut infinitely thinly...

        Boy that was fun. Lets convolve the impulse function with this sinusiod!

        Coming up next week: Building wavelets from othographic functions!
      • Boring? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by blitz487 ( 606553 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @11:14PM (#10542654)
        There is no boring science. There are only boring speakers. And you're quite wrong about Fourier transforms. If you don't have an interest in the world around you, that doesn't make the world boring, it makes you boring.
        • Re:Boring? (Score:3, Interesting)

          There is no boring science. There are only boring speakers. And you're quite wrong about Fourier transforms. If you don't have an interest in the world around you, that doesn't make the world boring, it makes you boring.

          Amen, I wish I'd written that. I'm 70, and have been making electrons do usefull work for about 57 of those years because I was interested

          I started out fixing the neighbors radios for cigarette money when I was 13, and was working at a major brand tv wholesaler fixing the tv's the deale
  • by el-spectre ( 668104 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:01PM (#10541410) Journal
    Before it became the Discover Motorcycles Channel
    • by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:03PM (#10541432)
      I stopped tuning in when it became the Discover Gay Men's Taste in Decoration Channel.
    • Don't make him come out there!

      Seriously, though, I agree... as amusing as some shows are, I can only discover so much about custom choppers before I realize I don't care.

      American Chopper was funny for a season or two, but now it is almost a parody of itself.

      • I dig the bikes (the spider one from early is beautiful), but it's getting so formulatic... There should be a drinking game, every time the do this weird speech thing: "Well, I know that [OPINION A], but to tell you the truth [OPPOSITE OF OPINION A], So that's how it's gotta be", you drink.

        There's something to be said for occasional 'how they make bikes' shows. The 'birth of the V-Rod' actually had a buncha science/engineering/history in it. But every night it's either a bike, or a hot rod... how 'bout som
      • Eh, I'm bigger than he is :)

        Every time I hear his psycho dad talking about "size 12s" I look down at my size 13 steel toes and laugh...
    • by mrgreen4242 ( 759594 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:22PM (#10541579)
      Ya the Discovery Channel has kinda tanked the alst few years. American Chopper was good for like 2 episode, and Monster Garage for maybe 2 ro 3 episodes.

      However, I never get tired of Junkyard Wars and Myth Busters. Myth Busters has to be the best show ever. They should get Adam and Jamie to do a show where they build crazy stuff to demonstrate simple to mildy complex science. I can't say that I hav learned a whole lot of science from their show, but it is extremely entertaining!

    • The only channel I watch for educational value is... the History Channel (which itself could be better). Everything else either used to be good or never was. I should note that my selection of programming is limited so there may be more out there.
    • Agreed. Unfortunately, I can't really blame them since that is what is bringing in the ad dollars and the viewers.

      I wonder what the world will be like with a generation who grows up not knowing the joys of seeing the breasts of women in third world countries with discs through their lips, or watching animals get it on, or seeing all the cool gadgets of the future like they did on Beyond 2000.

      The glory days of the Discovery Channel are far behind, I just hope they can rekindle some of their past fire. What

    • Yeah, damn them, they split that off into a 24-hour channel called The Science Channel and a companion called Discovery Health which covers human biology and related issues.

      Pretty rotten of them, huh?

      There's also National Geographic Channel with shows like Seconds from Disaster and Megastructures. History Channel has Tactical to Practical, Modern Marvels and Guts & Bolts. History Channel International has a significant number of shows about how structures were built.

      Yeah, too bad there isn't any dece
      • by Bastian ( 66383 )
        I would kill to see some of the science channels buy and start showing old episodes of stuff like Nova and Connections.

        Not that I know whether or not PBS would give them up, but it's not like PBS is incredibly devoted to re-running their documentaries after a certain time.
  • Hell no! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:01PM (#10541418)
    Thats why Star Trek is so popular. It has nothing based on science, but says that it is, and has good special effects.
  • Yes (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:02PM (#10541420)
    IF the program is compered by the like of late Feynmaann or late Carl Sagan. One of the thing that attract people to scince is the style of narrator. A good narrator can spell bind you to the beauty of cosmo, scince.
    • Re:Yes (Score:5, Informative)

      by dotwaffle ( 610149 ) <slashdot@walst[ ]org ['er.' in gap]> on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:07PM (#10541467) Homepage
      A perfect example of this is the Spoof Science Series "Look Around You" which was on the BBC a couple years back (series two filming now...) which would not have been anywhere near as good without the narrator. If anyone wants a copy, and by copy I don't mean BitTorrent, then Amazon and other retailers have the DVD of series 1. It WILL make you laugh if you grew up with crappy science programmes like I did :) Enjoy...
    • Re:Yes (Score:3, Insightful)

      by xasper8 ( 137598 )
      Exactly - James Burke in Connections (1&2)!
      Great show about everyday objects and the science and history of their evolution.
      Granted Connection 2 kinda lost the magic of the first show - good none-the-less.

      Or even Mr. Wizard or Bill the Science guy - granted some of that was total kidz stuff - but they made it really interesting.
    • Re:Yes (Score:5, Interesting)

      by rnturn ( 11092 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @09:58PM (#10542340)

      Most of the decent science programming that I recall was from quite a few years ago.

      There was Cosmos, of course, though I got really tired of the camera shots of Carl Sagan staring out of his spaceship window. In fact, I almost didn't make it past the initial show after those sappy scenes. Someone thing about it rubbed me the wrong way in a major way. (And don't even get me started about Pachelbel's Canon...)

      From about '74/'75 -- at least that's when it aired in Chicago -- there was 'The Ascent of Man'. I loved listening to Jacob Bronowski in that series. Maybe it was the frumpy old school professor demeanor.

      There was `Connections' with James Burke. That was always interesting. Haven't heard much from Burke in the past several years.

      'Nova' is still on but the content seems to be repetitive. (Either that or I'm seeing reruns. :-) )

      I like the `Scientific American' show (or whatever the name is) hosted by Alan Alda. Even though there are times when I can't stand him, the topics are interesting and the shows are well done. They're not being shown much around here any more.

      Not really a television show but a series that I really liked as a kid was the films put out by Bell Science. Oh come on, you all remember the films with the young, black haired guy who always wore a white shirt and tie and was sort of the comic relief to Dr. Frank Baxter, the straight-laced, older, bald fellow with the glasses who always wore a suit. There was a curtain in their lab that used to get pulled back to reveal a screen where animated characters would explain the scientific principles. 'Hemo the Magnificent' was one of the films. (It was shown -- probably excerpted -- for some years in an exhibit at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry. I remember being pretty disappointed when they took that exhibit down.) I seem to recall that these two guys were also in 'Donald Duck in Mathemagics Land'. I still remember learning about the Coriolis Effect via the animation in 'The Unchained Goddess'. Good stuff. I have a few of those films on laserdisk and my kids love 'em. (Don't have 'Hemo' or 'Mathemagics Land', though. :-( )

      Certified 'Old Farts' will remember that Walter Cronkite -- once he finished rehashing WWII on 'The 20th Century' -- had a science/technology-related show called (not surprisingly) 'The 21st Century'. Probably inspired by the moon program, it covered advances in science that, I guess, we were all going to be benefitting from by the 21st century. I cannot recall how good the shows were. It'd be interesting to see them again if only to see how close the show came to predicting the way things eventually turned out. Or how far off they were.

      There was another show that I used to catch years ago (infrequently, as it seemed to get scheduled at odd times) on one of the local PBS stations. I think it was called 'Physical Universe' or something like that. It had a real clean cut lecturer speaking in an auditorium complete with lab table in front of a bunch of students. There were some simple but, IMHO, effective computer graphics showing some of the physical principles being talked about. Pretty low budget, I'd guess, but interesting. Anyone know if it's still being aired?

      If the current crop of science shows isn't working out too well, they could bring back any of the above series and exceed the quality of the current science programming by an order of magnitude or two. Heck even the animated 'Science Court' is better than what I've seen lately. I've got two grade school age children who are interested in science and it'd be nice if the networks or PBS could mix some decent science programming into the Saturday morning schedule. And I don't mean at 5:30 AM, either.

      Someone had mentioned the Discovery Channel and that made me laugh. There were some Sat. AM science shows that I used to watch when I was a kid. One of them was called 'Discovery 67'. If memory serves, it was on for a couple of years. Heck, for

    • A good, knowledgeable host that can clearly state the material presented so most of the viewers can absorb what is being said is rare and can really "make or break" a show. IMO David Suzuki, PhD and his series "The Nature of Things" does just that. He, again IMO, is the best thing ever to hit science tv. Sadly "The Nature of Things" not available in the US anymore (which pisses me off). He's done some very good stuff with pbs but it's not the same.

      Want more people in the US to watch science related shows?

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:02PM (#10541424)
    "shiny veneer of stupid..."

    Then you wouldn't be watching the Presidential debates, would you?
  • It does in Japan (Score:5, Interesting)

    by antifoidulus ( 807088 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:03PM (#10541435) Homepage Journal
    there is a channel that is soley devoted to really boring science. One day I saw a dude doing Fourier transforms on TV, another molecular bio, and yet another they were talking about software engineering.
    But then again, at the same time, I didn't think I could see anything dumber on Japanese TV than I did on American, but boy was I wrong....
    • by ashitaka ( 27544 )
      America does dumb, Japan does wierd.

      The boring channel is NHK2. No-showbiz science programs. The real stuff you'd see in a lecture hall.

      That being said even with just five or six channels I found Japanese TV can be far more entertaining and informative (even at the same time) than anything available in North America.

      I haven't bothered to get cable, satellite or even a Tivo since moving back as each time we get a chance to sample what's on (staying at a hotel for example) we all end up agreeing its 99% cr
    • by deglr6328 ( 150198 )
      Cool! And thanks for underscoring just one more reason why Japan is the probably the most technologically advanced society on Earth while the general public in the US consistently scores dead last in surveys of scientific literacy.
  • by suso ( 153703 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:03PM (#10541439) Journal
    Science and the knowledge of it is a threat to those in power. Those in power are pretty much setting an example for how people should live their lives. So I would say no, it is unlikely that a great thirst for the knowledge of science will happen very soon.
    • by drlake ( 733308 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:09PM (#10541480)
      While science MAY be a threat to those in power (I disagree) that has no bearing on whether or not this will catch on. The basic problem facing a channel like this is the widespread willful ignorance of Americans. If it isn't directly related to their chosen way to make money and isn't otherwise entertaining, they aren't interested. Unless this is done in a very entertaining way, it won't get much of a viewership. It may have enough to catch on, but that'll be about it.
    • by Saeger ( 456549 ) <(farrellj) (at) (gmail.com)> on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:29PM (#10541630) Homepage
      "I don't need no science. I just need my bling, yo, cuz I'm keep'n it real! ... Real Dumb!" -- Chris Rock paraphrased

      --

    • by deglr6328 ( 150198 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @08:36PM (#10541987)
      It is not science and knowledge specifically which constitute a "threat to those in power". Bush et al. or whoever happens to be in power at the time are not likely to be dethroned by a sudden widespread and detailed comprehension of nuclear fusion for instance. No, it is the powerful incisive, rational, analytical and logical thought processes which a scientifically trained mind must posess that are truly disruptive to the "status quo" (if I may use such a loaded term).
  • Of course not! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    But does she really have to? I mean, does Joe Public care whether Perl is better that Pythin or vice versa? Of course not! But Real Programmers care, and that is what really matters. Likewise with science, philosophy, religion, art etc. Some people care, and for those few it is worth doing.
  • It should (Score:5, Interesting)

    by AKAImBatman ( 238306 ) * <akaimbatman@ g m a i l . com> on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:05PM (#10541454) Homepage Journal
    Honestly, people do like the Discovery Channel and hearing about "Mysteries of the Universe". Topics which can grab people's attention include:

    - Explaining Nuclear Space Propulsion Methods
    - Investigate Red Mercury, whether it exists, and its potential uses
    - Explain how Fission and Fusion actually work
    - Explain Relativity, String Theory, etc. (Oh wait, someone did that.)
    - Investigate the Ancient Vimanas

    The secret to making these subjects interesting is to place them in the context of the common person. Lay low on the mathematics, and go heavy on the computer graphics.

    As long as the public isn't hearing the same 50 year old science AGAIN (look, it's a Saturn V), they'll be interested.
    • Re:It should (Score:5, Insightful)

      by peeping_Thomist ( 66678 ) * on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:47PM (#10541754)
      Lay low on the mathematics, and go heavy on the computer graphics.

      So then what's the point of having such shows? Without the grounding in mathematics, science turns into a fairy tale. Astrology tells its story, science tells its story, and people pick and choose between them. What people need to learn is that science actually affords us real knowledge. There's no way to do that while ignoring the math.
      • If you want to learn the math, pick up a book. It can't be adequately covered in 22 or even 45 minutes anyway. The crap on TV is just that, crap. It's entertaining and you learn some trivia, so it's not like it's useless... The math is not what's important, the concepts are. Keep science in the public's mind.
    • These days, "people" (meaning "people in general" not "the people I know") couldn't care less about science unless it affects them directly, and even then they are only interested in the effect (especially if it's frightening), not in the science. Science programming that isn't announcing an asteroid heading toward the Earth has to be watered down to pure amusement level or only geeks will watch it. That's why cars, motorcycles and home remodeling dominate Discovery Channel and TLC now.

      Anyway, since you me
  • I've always found science fun and interesting, though I am not Joe Public.

    I enjoyed watching TLC before it was all "OMFG! Trading Spaces is on!" However, it was a whole lot of reruns on things they did before. Like Shark Week always seemed to be the same. And the dinosaur special. And the.. well, pretty much all the sciencey stuff.

    Discovery Channel wasn't so bad, but then they deviated from hard science to other things.

    If I had two good science channels, I'd get cable. Until that time, I'm content with G
  • Great idea! (Score:2, Funny)

    by rackhamh ( 217889 )
    "their goal is to produce the C-SPAN ... of science"

    Sure-fire recipe for success!
  • Bring it on! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by xasper8 ( 137598 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:09PM (#10541487)
    Lets hope this gets off the ground quickly! I am for anything that will off set the vacuum of intellect that my local cable company provides. Can I please get something other than Sports and another women's network?

    I am already a fan of the Discovery Science channel - however it needs a better programming - but I'm not complaining! At least it's something.

    I am still in disbelief of what happened over at TechTV...
  • by philovivero ( 321158 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:10PM (#10541494) Homepage Journal
    If it can be made into a date rape drug, or something that will harden his member, then Joe Public will be all over it. 95% of the population is of (counts on fingers for a bit...) below-average intelligence. So that means there's only 5% of the population that can bitch about the rest of the population on Slashdot. And of course, I'm in that 5% that's of above-average intelligence. Right?

    But seriously. If you like hard science... don't go to television to find it. Television is all about branding dumbed down entertainment as something it isn't. Science. Law. Journalism. Even shows that are about dumb topics (like bikini babe lifeguards) aren't realistic in any sense of the word.
    • Science is not only for the 'chosen' ones and television doesn't have to be made for stupids. In Sweden, for instance, the state television [svt.se] has no commercials and commercial interest since it it financed by a special fee with all that non-commecialism implies, i.e., sex, drugs, violence. On the other hand, it produces didactic programs that have won European awards, especially one for kids (Högaffla Hage). Knowledge and education should be available for everybody even for that 99.99999%+ who does not
    • by el-spectre ( 668104 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:45PM (#10541740) Journal
      Get thee to a statistics class!
      • by rk ( 6314 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @08:33PM (#10541975) Journal

        No, that's possible. "Average" is not terribly specific, but the mean is a form of average and you can have 95% be below the mean. Consider these data points: 1,2,3,1,4,3,5,1,7,2,6,6,3,2,1,6,1,5,3,100. What's the mean? 8.1. What percent of data values are below the mean? 95%. The same thing would occur if you have 19 values of 99 and one of 100 (The mean is 99.95, but 19 of 20 is below it).

        Now, there are other averages (mode, median, and range come to mind, and ISTR something about "upper and lower whiskers" but stats was LOOONG ago), and one would have to question a data set with one value way out of whack with the rest of the data, but you can have a 95% of things are below average if you have a weird distribution of data.

        It's unrealistic, but there's nothing inherent to the definition of average that precludes it.

    • 95% of the population is of (counts on fingers for a bit...) below-average intelligence. .....Oh...I don't really have a response to this, I'll just leave it at that so we can all enjoy the hilarious irony of this post.
    • I'm not sure it's that people are of below-average intelligence so much as not all people are interested in science in and of itself. As you pointed out, if you can use science to create something they find useful, they'll care. Those of us on Slashdot may be interested in how passing electricity through a plasma can be used to produce a certain wavelength of light, but most people don't seem to care until you use it to build a TV.

      This can work the other way around for different topics. Most people in t
  • by Sonny Yatsen ( 603655 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:11PM (#10541502) Journal
    Not to sound like a horrible pessimist, but I think this channel would have a great deal of trouble if it were Nation wide. For far too long, science has become stigmitized by popular culture, and the education system, into being something regarded as work. It's too bad that when people watch TV and see something that tries to show them how beautiful the world is, their eyes gloss over.

    Of course, I am generalizing a lot of people in the US. But Americans don't place as much emphasis on science and mathematics anymore. Unlike during the Cold War, where science was encouraged to kids (to beat the Russians), science today has become another class you have to take for your report cards. I don't think people would want to bring what they regard as work into their vegetative times.

    Another problem I see with the youth today is that they tell themselves "Math is hard. Science is hard." If they keep telling themselves that, how would they ever watch a channel devoted to it? There's a horrible self-fulfilling prophecy at work. It doesn't help that the popular culture likes to impress onto kids that being bad in math or science is something to be proud of.
  • Science Channel (Score:2, Informative)

    by Donoho ( 788900 )
    The Science Channel is available on DirecTV. Watched a decent show a couple weeks ago on the science that goes into the construction of a new house and it's materials. Actually made watching paint dry interesting :p
  • Shiney Veneer (Score:2, Insightful)

    by ACNiel ( 604673 )
    A hard science show that delves into the minutia of the matter, the math, the statistics, the detailed physics or chemistry, is not going to be enjoyable for anyone other than those already in the know.

    I am of above average intelligence (however slightly). It isn't that I want to still watch Mr. Wizards World, but I also don't want to follow a statistics lecture, or inherently understand some anscillary chemical reaction, before I learn about a new technology.

    My sister, doctorate in chemistry in hand, wi
    • Re:Shiney Veneer (Score:3, Insightful)

      by FrankHaynes ( 467244 )
      Where do you draw the line of "veneer of stupidity"?

      As I read the introduction to this article, when I read that phrase my mind immediately thought of the programming advertised on U.P.N. as I watched Enterprise push the Magic Reset Button again. Shows like "America's Top Model" and "WWE Smackdown" would qualify as having at least a veneer of stupidity. These shows might be 100% stupid through and through.

      On the other hand, those who can explain complex systems and theories in understandable ways without
  • I admittadly could be wrong, but judging by what is written about the first show in Wired, it looks like they have a political agenda right out of the gate which leans left. I hope they present all sides of the debate equally.
  • I've wondered if hard science or technology programming will ever catch on with the general public.

    Hard science hasn't caught on, so hard science programming won't either, though programming labled hard science might, if it wasn't hard or science.

  • We here on ./ care, so I guess the answer is "No".

  • They'd rather watch people eat bugs and animal entrails on "'Fear Factor".
  • by Clod9 ( 665325 )
    I'd love to see a lecture series where they'd take a one-hour lecture from someone who knows what they're talking about, like Feynman or Knuth, and expand it with well-shot illustrations, commentary, and explanations for those who aren't in the field. A continuous channel full of such things would hold my interest, and my anticipation, like nothing they've got anywhere right now.

    Note my examples: both current topics and historically significant figures and subjects would be equally welcome. It would be che

    • I'd love to see a lecture series where they'd take a one-hour lecture from someone who knows what they're talking about, like Feynman or Knuth, and expand it with well-shot illustrations, commentary, and explanations for those who aren't in the field. A continuous channel full of such things would hold my interest, and my anticipation, like nothing they've got anywhere right now.

      I don't know about a continuous channel, but you can get a few hours per year from the Royal Institution's Christmas lectures [rigb.org] wh

  • This is the same public that watches Survivor? Reality TV gets all the ratings? Heck, even Sci Fi gets cancelled. I doubt they care.
  • No. Television is programmed for the lowest common denominator because what they want is sheer numbers of eyeballs, not the quality of the brain residing behind the eyeballs.

    Of course, television is slowly learning to rue the day that all they have left is the LCD because anyone with an iota of smarts is out playing on the Internet anyway.
  • Niche programming (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Unnngh! ( 731758 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:24PM (#10541596)
    Television, much like radio and most other media for that matter, is moving gradually in the direction of niche programming. This is supported by on-demand, tivo, etc. The science channel looks like something that would appeal to a limited number of people, depending on the format, but enough to warrant the programming. I personally like the speed channel and I really can't imagine that most people watch it that much--Nascar is in, but not racing in general in the US.

    Just a matter of time before I can just pick up the remote, find which category and specific type of program I want to watch, choose which episode/installment, and there I go.

  • If Joe Public cared about getting hardcore about science and/or technology, then Joe Public would have studied it in college, where the overwhelming majority studies Liberal Arts like History, PoliSci etc.. And most people I know (all to be honest) don't turn on the tube to learn something, they turn it on to relax. The reason programs like PBS Astronomy shows do decently well is that they skim the surface and make it more glamorous.

    What do you think will happen when someone plops a math formula across t
  • Diversity (Score:2, Interesting)

    As the number of channels grow, the niches that a channel can focus on profitably grow smaller, allowing channels to choose programming that isn't dumbed down to the least common denominator. Someday with video on demand we'll be able to watch linear algebra proofs 24-7 if we want.
  • I'm a member of Science in the News (http://www.sitnboston.com [sitnboston.com]), a grad student organization in Boston that gives talks on current events biology to the general public. In my three years with the group I can say that it's a small, but highly interested audience. What seems to concern them most is learning something relevant to them while having it explained in terms they can understand even if they don't have any biology background beyond high school.

    Will our program, or this new network, become multi-m

  • No the general population doesn't care, and they probaly won't.

    But this doesn't matter, a strong enough demand will make it profitable to supply something that isn't mainstream.
    Linux users didn't use to be a strong enough group to pull in lots of commercial software, now there are a variety of products, from games to large commercial packages.
    Same thing with TV, when they realize they can make a profit broadcasting science, they'll do it.
  • I don't think the average person really knows what Science is, let alone thinks they can understand it. At the most they want a flashy "look what those wacky nerds have thought up now" type show, that reassures them they are not too smart - since in many ways our society teaches us that being too smart is bad for you.

    Science shows with any serious information in them are of necessity confined to that miniscule percentage of the population that has a clear conception of what Science really is, and doesn't
  • by qbzzt ( 11136 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:33PM (#10541655)
    This is an extremely popular TV show, which now runs three times a week (the Las Vegas original, Miami, and the brand new New York series). Each show focuses on the scientific gathering of evidence to catch criminals. This includes explanations, with heavy computer graphics.

    It's not that the public doesn't care about science. It's that the public wants Drama. Drama with science works great, it's the dry science only stuff that fails.

    Bye,
    Ori
  • insults... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by corian ( 34925 )
    Am I the only one who finds nearly everything said here rather elitist and rude? This attitude of"only we Slashdotters are smart and cultured enough to appreciate science programming. The general public is too stupid, uninterested, and incapable of understanding it." It's utter nonsense.

    It is possible to have self-confidence and be proud of your achievements without assuming that everyone else is a blathering idiot. Putting down everyone else makes you a smaller, not a bigger person.
    • Re:insults... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by winwar ( 114053 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:56PM (#10541798)
      "Am I the only one who finds nearly everything said here rather elitist and rude? This attitude of"only we Slashdotters are smart and cultured enough to appreciate science programming."

      Well, there is a LOT of that attitude. But not "nearly everything". But let's face it, I suspect most slashdot members have more in common with the "educated elite" than the average public.

      "The general public is too stupid, uninterested, and incapable of understanding it." It's utter nonsense."

      Really? I mean, surely not all three of those at once, but one of the three words probably applies to many if not most of the "general public". Remember, half the people in the world are below average in intelligence. Science and math are not popular topics.

      I currently work with "average" people (warehouse job). And let me tell you uninterested, stupid, and incapable of understanding applies very well. Through in a smattering of "let me tell you how it really is" and "I know I'm right" and you cover the general public very well, even the brighter ones. Sure, there are exceptions, but what you attribute to slashdot members can be found among the "general public" as well-those who have no grounds whatsoever for that elitist attitude.

      Most people may not be blathering idiots, but they sure act like it....
    • The general public is too uninterested, thus they are incapable of understanding it, thus they remain ignorant, which is not the same as stupid.

      On the other hand, I still think that 95% of everybody is a frickin' idiot. But, that just might be the way it is in America.

  • by Cranx ( 456394 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:34PM (#10541659)
    People like science, and will watch anything they can grasp. If a channel not only dedicates itself to presenting truly in-depth scientific shows, but also brings them up-to-date on the background science that leads to it and can give people reasons why it is useful science, they will watch.

    One of the reasons people keep watching the same kinds of shows they do on the Discovery channel is that the topics are usually that which they have the background on already and so can grasp. I watched Cosmos when it originally aired during my first year of high school, and I had only the barest inkling of the topics he covered, but Sagan presented each episode in a way that helped me get up to speed quickly on what he was talking about before he fed out the hard science. In effect, making it all pretty easy science.

    A hard science channel won't succeed if it's not willing to get people up to speed on the topics like that. If you want a channel that just dumps hard data on people's laps that they have no background information on, no, I don't think it will succeed.
    • ...compelling speaker, even if his subjects are dry or a bit shallow. i was fortunate enough to see him speak in seattle.

      his 'connections' series are ok, but his 'day the universe changed' was far better (sadly its not available on vhs or dvd anywhere).

      sadly they all pale to sagan's 'cosmos' series. the subject matter was sweeping and grand, and sagan's presentation was spellbinding.
  • Niche channel... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AJ_Levy ( 700911 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:37PM (#10541677) Homepage
    A hard science channel, at least for the immediate time being, would be a niche channel. It may attract a large enough audience to remain viable, but unless it is significantly dumbed down, I can't imagine that niche would be a really large one.

    And this doesn't mean that those who chose not to be viewers of such a channel are "dumb". The truth is that a lot of people - really intelligent people for that matter - don't particularly find subject matter that leads to a lot of thinking an appealing use of the time where they don't have to. A lot of people are under a lot of stress, between work, jobs, family, etc.; and don't want to do a lot of extra mental heavy lifting in their leisure time.

    The other thing is that, for many people, hard science is difficult. This, again, doesn't necessarily mean that they're dumb; just that they've gone through life without having a good education about science. Call it a problem with the education system, or the way many children are raised, but the sad truth is many people just don't 'get' science.

    So will it be a mainstream success? If I were a gambling man, I'd almost certainly say no, mostly for the reasons outlined above. But I don't think that high ratings is the point of putting together a hard science channel; rather the point is to attract a core demographic of people who are interested. And, assuming that the channel can find advertisers who are willing to pay a premium for people who spend their leaisure time thinking about hard science, it can be a success.

  • by swordgeek ( 112599 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:38PM (#10541697) Journal
    Back in the 50s, TV was going to be the innovation to herald a new era of education, enlightenment, and completely new entertainment. It never really achieved any of that. Most of TV's history has been political agenda-making, or brainless crap (and often both).

    I don't see what would make it change now. Just look at the direction the internet has been going for the last decade.
  • betting on the lack of good taste that the "common man" has.

    I'd love to have a hard core science channel on free to air (as opposed to cable / pay TV), but will have to make do with the occasional paper copy of new scientist or scientific american.
  • by Mr. Flibble ( 12943 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:47PM (#10541750) Homepage
    There are shows out there that are science based, but how many people watch them?

    Nova has been around for ages, as has Nature. Both are excellent shows, but what kind of audience do they have? Sadly, not enough. Even with such excellent programs as this: The Elegant Universe [pbs.org]. (Note, you need to downgrade your version of quicktime if it is new to view it due to a quicktime bug. I reccomend the full screen version BTW.)

    Up here in Canada I have been watching The Nature of Things [www.cbc.ca] for as long as I can remember. We also get Quirks and Quarks [radio.cbc.ca] on CBC radio, which is actually quite popular up here. (I reccomend downloading some episodes in MP3. Jay Ingram from Daily Planet used to host this show.)

    So, there are good shows out there for such a network, but the question becomes, would people watch? I know I would, hell, I would subscribe to a cable channel of that nature in an instant. However, as it is, I use my ATI All-In-Wonder and the PVR software that came with it to record and play back these shows, so I have a "custom" science channel of my own.

    Michael Schermer has been working towards this for some time: as shown here.

    I think though, that one VITAL thing to add would be along the lines of what Schermer already does (and the Mythbusters TV show does to some degree as well): Teach Joe Sixpack the nature of scientific thinking, specifically critical thinking as outlined in Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World, Science as a Candle in the Dark. Once more people begin to understand this concept, they will likely become more open to scientific televison, well, that is what I hope for anyhow.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    You're asking this about a viewing public that thinks The Swan, Fear Factor, and Switching Mommies are the paramount of real TV.
    Programs that actually involve thinking and heaven forbid - perhaps learning will be about as popular as math class was, to these same people, in school.
    The only ones to watch would be the ones who would just as well read on the same topics.
    Television that informs? What a silly idea!
  • by Trolling4Dollars ( 627073 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @07:54PM (#10541792) Journal
    ...to the sea of stupid, we won't see this kind of thing catch on at all. Before shows like this can become popular, we have to make sure that intelligence is something that is pushed as being positive in popular culture. Right now, being stupid is what's seen as being cool. My wife read something last week that said that in England, the person that most boys idolize after Beckham is... Stephen Hawking. What do you want to bet that in the U.S. it's Kidd Rock or Eminem?
    • by Teckla ( 630646 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @08:30PM (#10541959)

      Right now, being stupid is what's seen as being cool.

      I agree. And what might be even worse:

      Even if you're smart and pursue an education, you won't find a job because it'll be offshore outsourced anyway.

      The U.S. is on the verge of re-electing the most anti-science president in U.S. history, George W. Bush.

      The future doesn't look very bright if you're an American.

  • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Vandil X ( 636030 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @08:28PM (#10541951)
    I think a good source of Science television is good for children and adults alike.

    For children, it inspires.

    For adults, it explains really cool things in layman's terms.

    I watch The Science Channel all the time... well, when the wife lets me have the clicker.
  • It used to... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Bones3D_mac ( 324952 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @08:43PM (#10542020)
    Until Comcast ruined TechTV with their annoyingly mindless G4 drivel. The quality of the programming on G4TechTV is hopelessly pathetic. Many of the great shows they did have on there have been dumped for reruns of Arena, Filter and PLayers.

    Also, the majority of people who made the original TechTV worth watching have already jumped ship.

    Who knows... maybe if were lucky, the Discovery channel will create it's own version of what TechTV once was... but for now, the outlook is pretty grim.
  • Doubtful (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 4minus0 ( 325645 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @08:57PM (#10542082)

    I doubt any kind of hard science channel will take off. Joe Public doesn't like to think. He just wants to be passively entertained.

    Look at how far downhill the programming on TLC has gone. Shows that were mildly entertaining on BBC are highly irritating on that channel. Shows like Trading Spaces and such fill their daily programming now, and not because management there "guesses" people will watch.

    Outside of academia and industries that have hard sciences as their backbone, people are pretty damned stupid. Seriously. Joe Public is an idiot and will do whatever it takes to keep from having to think too hard. Joe Public seems to have enough sense to keep himself alive for 70 some odd years and little drive to pick up any more knowledge.

    You been thinkin' son?
    Yeah, but I don't think I'm thunk.

  • Last weekend the American Science Channel was doing a classic Science shows marathon, with "The Secret Life of Machines," "The Ascent of Man", "The Day the Universe Changed," and Walter Cronkite's "The 21st Century" from the 1960s.

    I put in a season pass for for the first three on the TiVo.

    "The Day the Universe Changed" is current enough that I had already watched most of it on my TiVo.

    It occurred to me that I actually have the complete "Ascent of Man" buried somewhere on VHS tapes that I made when it was first broadcast in the 1980s. I had no life.

    They say in the modern commentary that some things we know now contradict what we thought the but that doesn't hurt the enjoyment of the show.

    "The Secret Life of Machines" is great mostly because they pull off amazing demonstrations of how the components inside work. The host Roy Hunkin said he amazed himself that were able to make an electrostatic copy like a Xerox machine. In almost every episode, even though I have decent knowledge I learned some new aspect of how things work.

    The most amazing is "The 21st Century" which I remember watching when it was originally on in the 1960s. I remember it was the first time I heard that Raytheon had a prototype oven that cooked with microwave radio waves. They called it a RadarRange.

    In one they absolutely torture some poor volunteers with Gs, heat and cold to check aspects of putting men in space. One guy was put into a 400 degree oven for 6 minutes.

    I heard several times that we are scheduled to put men on Mars by 1986.

    By the year 2000 we will have much more leisure time because we will work only a 30 hour work week.

    They showed the home of the future. One cutting edge California engineer had a computer terminal (a LOUD clanky TeleType) in his own kitchen that connected by phone line to a computer all the way in New York. The kids could even do math homework on it.

    The home would have a TEN FOOT 3D Television with a HIGH FIDELITY STEREOPHONIC SOUND system. There was a control panel about 8 feet wide that had huge knobs to control it all. There was desk where the homeowner could work. One screen had the weather and stock quotes. The one next to it was a video telephone. The next one could do the finances. (It never occurred then that we would have one screen that did all that and more..)

    I went to a presentation at the Chicago Consumer Electronics show about 15 years ago where it was predicted there would be 10 foot flat screen "hang it on the wall" TVs in ten years time, and a panel member said "I've been hearing that we'd have them in ten years for 20 years." We still don't have em.

    It occurs to me now that the QUADRAPHONIC SOUND we thought was white elephant fad in the 80s was actually ahead of it's time. It was only one or two speakers from modern surround sound systems.

    Guests to your house will bring their own inflatable furniture, inflate it to use in your house, and then deflate it and take it home. (only until the end of the 1970s. |-{)

    I felt like I was a visitor from the future looking in to see what they got right.

    Mostly they couldn't imagine the drag that politics and other interests would be on progress in space and elsewhere. They didn't note that things got smaller as they got newer. I think at that time the miniaturization of electronics was just at its birth so they had no way to note what it would mean to things in the future.

    It was very cool. I'm saving the "Home of the Future" episode permanently.
  • I remember (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gidds ( 56397 ) <slashdot&gidds,me,uk> on Friday October 15, 2004 @09:46PM (#10542290) Homepage
    ...when TV science programmes used to be fascinating. I used to switch off having learned something -- not to put too fine a point on it, they used to be educational. Of course, that's a rude word in most TV programming these days -- instead, they have to be entertaining.

    I think it comes down to the people making the programmes. In the old days, the people who made the programmes understood what they were telling you. They designed the programmes to inform, to explain, to convey knowledge -- and that was what made them interesting.

    These days, most programmes are made by people who clearly don't have a clue about their subject matter. The idea is just to interview a few professors and hope that some information will leak out somewhere... Which rarely happens. Or, alternatively, you get the whizz-bang style, the 'Hey, wow, we don't understand any of this stuff either, but doesn't it look good??!!' approach.

    And then they wonder why people don't get as much out of such programmes...

    Personally, I'm happier watching old Open University programmes than most prime-time science programmes, even those on the BBC. The thrill of learning something new, of having your horizons broadened. You can't beat it.

  • by PetoskeyGuy ( 648788 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @10:20PM (#10542437)
    Joe Public, Joe Six Pack, The Great Unwashed, ID-10-T Errors, l-users...

    People aren't nearly as stupid as most geeks like to think. A big problem is that most "smart" people seem to be unable to communicate properly and that science really does come off as boring.

    The reason most people find science boring is because it's so poorly presented. A Brief History of Time, and The Elegant Universe were both NYT Best Sellers. They explain amazingly complex topics in a way that's interesting and understandable.

    Create some programs that deliver science with respect for the viewer and understands that if it doesn't seem interesting it's a fault of the show, not the viewers. Bring out the human and social factors and don't just dryly spout technical jargon.
  • by drgonzo59 ( 747139 ) on Friday October 15, 2004 @10:49PM (#10542560)
    I think it is called Gordon. It airs late at night on a fairly popular channel not some obscure one. The program has a very simple structure, the host just invites scientists to present topics from recent research and then they discuss it. The topics range as they do in the Nature journal: physics, biochemistry, geology, they might even have math there. The host doesn't know in depth all those fields so he invites two or three guests that so they ask each other questions and talk about the presentation. Not really a program for prime time, but I when I visit back home in Eastern Europe, I try to stay up to watch it. I wish we had something like it here in the States.

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