Automatic Scanning for Cameras in Theaters 352
An anonymous reader writes "A Florida firm claims to have found a solution for the movie industry to prevent bootlegging in theaters. Tom's Hardware carries a story about Trakstar, which demonstrated its 'PirateEye' technology in a Hollywood movie theater to journalists and movie industry representatives: The technology uses light impulses to detect video recording devices. A second component is an audio watermarking system."
Bootlegging (Score:5, Insightful)
The real issue are those screeners, which they've made some progress with (I hear), and the people who work in the theatres, which will be difficult. I doubt someone getting paid close to minimum wage is going to care about your IP. Watermarking sounds promising.
Re:Bootlegging (Score:3, Interesting)
They have done a lot of work to prevent abuse by screeners. As for movie theatre employees, there are a lot of the same issue with quality.
Actually, this is meant for inside jobs too (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Actually, this is meant for inside jobs too (Score:5, Funny)
All you need to do is take a polaroid of the movie theatre from the detector's perspective, then affix something to prop up the polarioid in front of the detector. Voila!
Re:Actually, this is meant for inside jobs too (Score:5, Funny)
I guess the pirates have nothing to be afraid of then. Nothing useful ever came out of talking to a call center.
Re:Actually, this is meant for inside jobs too (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously, they would never recoup costs of $thousands for every screen in the world. Not unless they believe their own inflated damage estimates (I predict they don't). And it's an incredibly risky investment. I give it 2 weeks before somebody figures out you can defeat it by covering the camcorder's infrared autofocus light with a piece of masking tape, or installing a lens hood, or before they simply have to trash the whole system because it triggers the emergency response system every time somebody wearing coke-bottle glasses walks in.
Not that I care, I've never even seen a "screener."
Re:Actually, this is meant for inside jobs too (Score:2)
And of course, it's extremely easy to combine cam video made in one theatre (say in South Korea, or France, or Sweden) w
Re:Bootlegging (Score:3, Interesting)
The supposed problem is the supposed cash loss due to piracy, so naturally Hollywood will want theaters to pay for these devides (despite the fact that they could simply be turned off via a small bribe to the theater operator for a particular showing). And with the increased cost will come increased ticket prices. I wonder if movie execs do studies on just how much a movie go'er will pay for a movie. I haven't been in a theater in a few years, so I do
Re:Bootlegging (Score:4, Informative)
Someone takes a video, uploads it, and soon it's being copied all over the world in tiny shops with 2-3 burners. I suppose this is one of the main problems they are trying to solve.
Re:Bootlegging (Score:3, Funny)
I take it you have never been to a movie theater. Thats how movies there always are.
Re:Bootlegging (Score:3, Interesting)
But! (Score:3, Funny)
But you must admit that this gives you the real cinema feeling. If there was a smell of popcorn and artificial butter it would be undistinguishable from a real cinema...
Watermarking sounds promising.
Watermarking? Sounds like something my dog also finds interesting.
Re:Bootlegging (Score:5, Interesting)
That blurs the watermarking, can allow you to improve the image quality, remove problems like people standing up and getting in the way, etc.
Audio watermarking is also defeatable. Someone slide an engineer at this company a few k for the specs and you can just use Felton's approach.
This post is not meant to encourage anyone, I'm just trying to point out to the industry (in case they're listening) that an arms race is not a particularly wise course of action. To quote The Hunt For Red October, "this will get out of control."
Re:Bootlegging (Score:3, Insightful)
Interestingly, these are -- to my limited experience -- a minority by far. Most copies were of astonishing, yet even DVD, quality which makes me wonder where they came from. The really good quality must come right from the source of distribution, not from the minimum wage guy at the theater.
Speaking of audio watermarking: until proven wrong, I do not believe in *robust inaudible* or inaudible but un
Re:Bootlegging (Score:3, Interesting)
The family of a friend of mine has a few good connections within the Hollywood industry and has access to DVD's of feature films with relative ease. Sadly, my friend has never permitted me to borrow one of these discs.
Sadly, it does make sense though. Why charge an employee of X to buy/see/etc one of X's products? It would
Re:Bootlegging (Score:2)
1. People not wanting to wait for the movie to hit t.v. or DVD.
1a. This may be a result of crowded theatres with bad food, and possibly high ticket prices for a single showing.
2. High DVD prices in some places. Some have it for like $10 each, which is a good price I believe. But when some stores sell DVDs for $20+, will a low income person be willing to pay that much to watch a movie?
Re:Bootlegging (Score:2)
Virtually every single one of them sold, the customer will bring them back to us in a week, complaining that they won't play their DVDs. So, I ask them to show me one of their discs, and they are always solid-white label, with the name of a movie (usually one that's just now out in theaters) printed directly on the face of it, in something like Arial 15pt.
HUGE HUGE HUGE business. And they are mostly camcorder takes.
Sure, screener DVD
Re:Bootlegging (Score:3, Interesting)
This would be good on a backpack (Score:5, Interesting)
But really, the issue at hand is cameras in theaters. Is the bootleg market that big? I have seen some movies that were recorded with a camcorder and they were funnier to watch the action of recording than the movie. The market has to adjust to the viewing habits; it appears people may want to watch new movies using alternative methods (aka internet). Don't most movies nowadays make more money from DVD sales then the actual movie? I wonder if the movies were released simultaneously to theaters, DVD, video on demand, video of Internet, etc if this would be an issue?
Now lets bring the two views together from paragraph 1 and 2. Just as the public sector adapt to use changing technology, the movie industry needs to adapt to the situation.
Re:This would be good on a backpack (Score:2)
Re:This would be good on a backpack (Score:2)
Re:This would be good on a backpack (Score:2)
However, I do know a few people, myself included, who saw a bootleg and said "Wow, this movie sucks, the quality of the bootleg does it justice." And I think that's r
Re:This would be good on a backpack (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll keep my response limited to legal methods of viewing a movie.
IMO, there are only 2 reasons to go to a theater in the first place. The first reason
For "inside jobs", too (Score:5, Interesting)
You can bet a company like this is angling to position itself to be EVERYWHERE, much like Macrovision - and then, one wonders if "offending" theaters will be punished by, say, having new releases withheld?
http://trakstar.net/solutions.htm [trakstar.net]
Re:For "inside jobs", too (Score:3, Interesting)
Or they can grab the reel and pop it in a telecine machine.
As for watermarking..they do that with video now and we get past it. Doing it with audio is even easier to bypass. All you need is two recordings from seperate theaters to compare against. If you're just doing audio, one can be done with a simp
Re:For "inside jobs", too (Score:2)
The device appears to be intended to be enabled at all times, according to the manufacturer's marketing materials. And "management" might also be at a higher level than the theater itself. Granted, if the entire theater local, regional, and corporate management is "in on it" (unlikely), you could bypass
Re:For "inside jobs", too (Score:2)
Yes, that was his point too - he *wants* an audio recording with the watermark present, and that's a good way of getting a good quality recording without having to film the entire movie and then split out the audio track.
Re:For "inside jobs", too (Score:2)
The company (naturally) seems convinced that they're immune to this; we'll see.
Re:For "inside jobs", too (Score:2)
They claim it's immune to that...
Cameras filming cameras (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Cameras filming cameras (Score:2)
Heh... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Heh... (Score:2)
Re:Heh... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Heh... (Score:3, Informative)
Heres what I found:
PirateEye's hidden cameras scan a movie audience, eight seats at a time, looking for things resembling a camcorder lens. It takes 15 to 20 minutes to scan a 1,000-seat audience. Images are sent to a technician watching a computer screen, who might be monitoring several theaters at a time from as far away as India, according to S&EA. Potential camcorder lenses are indicated on the computer screen with tiny red dots.
http://www.thememoryblog.org/archives/0
least of the problem (Score:2, Insightful)
Something I've wanted for years ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Some sort of electronic/optical flash system that, when activated, overblows CCD's, or otherwise interferes with their operation.
Then I could sell it to guys like this [cnn.com] and make a fortune...
(And before you liberties people get started, I believe I have a right to not get my picture taken, when I want not to get my picture taken..)
Re:Something I've wanted for years ... (Score:2)
That's true. You can stay inside your house whenever you want.
Obligatory Star Trek reference (Score:2)
ST:TNG Episode 106. When Wesley Crusher (Wil Wheaton) and Ensign Robin (Ashley Judd [ashley-judd.net] -yummy) develop a strobe-light sequence to counteract the effects of a mind-controlling VR game.
Re:Something I've wanted for years ... (Score:2, Informative)
Of course, in that case, there is no monthly service fee to pay Trakstar for their Alarm Force-like service.
ATTENTION MOVIE PATRONS: WE HAVE NOTICED SOMEONE IS USING A CAMERA. TRAKSTAR RECOVERY PERSONELLE HAS BEEN DISPATCHED.
Re:Something I've wanted for years ... (Score:2, Offtopic)
on your own property? yes you do.
in public? Not a chance in hell.
I already had a nice fight with a jerk that though his "image" was his property in a public place.
It's sad that as a indie documentarian I have to use lawyers and courts against some idiot that saw we were recording, walked behind the subject and into frame and then tried to demand the tape we were sh
Re:Something I've wanted for years ... (Score:2)
Re:Something I've wanted for years ... (Score:2)
Some sort of electronic/optical flash system that
So what are you waiting for? I'm pretty sure that this [thinkgeek.com] fits the bill, and it's been out for years.
...get some aluminum foil... (Score:2)
Re:Something I've wanted for years ... (Score:2, Funny)
PirateEye.... (Score:2, Funny)
Way to market to idiots.
It'll be on the internet anyway: Check I2P BT (Score:3, Interesting)
Once the DVD's hit the shelves in any country, the stuff will be on the net anyway.
Sharing it could become easier and safer also: I2P [i2p.net] --- an anonymous onion-routing network --- now has a functional BitTorrent client that functions completely within I2P (tracker, peer-to-peer traffic, everything).
For those on I2P, get it here: http://duck.i2p/i2p-bt/files/i2p-bt-0.1.0.tgz (this URL only works when you're running I2P).
Great technology. (Score:5, Funny)
The companion shitty dialogue filter would be indispensible as well.
It still won't work (Score:4, Funny)
How the hell would this work. (Score:5, Insightful)
Somehow the camera is supposed to respond to this. My knee jerk reaction was that all you needed to do was put tape over the remote control sensor and you would be good to go.
But they would undoubtedly have thought to create a system more resistant to spoofing than that. So I am stumped. I assume they are relying on some response from the lens? The feature list says it can't be fooled by pinhole cameras or even filters on the lenses, so thats what I base my guess on.
Anyone with more information care to speak up?
Which i thought was pretty funny. Read
Re:How the hell would this work. (Score:2)
Re:How the hell would this work. (Score:2)
Thanks....
Re:How the hell would this work. (Score:2)
So we are back to my original post. So, how the hell does this work? Does it harness the miracle powers of Fudge?
Re:How the hell would this work. (Score:2)
IR affects CCD's. (Score:3, Informative)
CCD's see IR, people don't. So if they flood the room with IR from several locations, it'll ruin any digital recording devices ability to see the film without affecting your ability to see it. This works for all camcorders, more
Re:How the hell would this work. (Score:5, Informative)
Somehow the camera is supposed to respond to this. My knee jerk reaction was that all you needed to do was put tape over the remote control sensor and you would be good to go.
Apparently, the system strobes the theater with a low-intensity light (visible wavelength, it says on their page (strange)), and records images of the public in the IR range.
It seems that camera-lenses reflect that light, and that these reflections can be recorded.
Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that you would still like to record your movie in the cinema, even though getting it through suprnova is much easier. Then the only thing you need to make sure is that your camera doesn't reflect light in the IR spectrum. A good lens-coating (having a broad stopband in IR) could do that. Using a very small lens (pin-hole camera) could do it.
Beware: They list that the system can't be fooled by, say, pin-hole cameras for two reasons: Marketing, and FUD. I don't believe, not for a moment, that one can detect a pin-hole camera like this.
Re:How the hell would this work. (Score:3, Interesting)
And it helps a lot that any camera lens they're worried about is always going to be pointed directly at the screen. That constrains the geometry and makes it simple to locate the source of the reflection.
I don't believe, not for a moment, that one can detect a pin-hole camera like this.
Agreed... But who has a pinhole video camera?
Re:How the hell would this work. (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems like they'd be getting hits off everyone in the theatre that wears glasses if they were doing something like that.
Here is how the hell would this work. (Score:3, Informative)
Remember the Sony "nightvision" cameras that caused the uproar over filming through clothes? The camera had the ability to shunt the IR filter to the side and film
Use stealth technology... (Score:3, Insightful)
If you put this filter/beamsplitter in front of the lens you could reflect the IR from the anti-pirate system off to the side, much like a stealth plane reflects radar to somewhere other than the detector. A little bit of careful beamsplitter/filter selection and the camera is invisible again, and can still see the screen.
Then they'll start putting detectors all over the theater to catch the light that pirates reflec
What the system should do... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What the system should do... (Score:2)
Re:What the system should do... (Score:2, Insightful)
This would just be really stupid and stop a lot of people from coming to the theaters. I mean, I would never pay a nickel to go se a movie in a theater which has a policy of stopping the movie, thus ruining the experience (IMHO is the only reason it's worth bout $14 to see a movie here
Re:What the system should do... (Score:2)
Since a lot of new cell phones used by this kids have camara on it this system does just that.
Rumor has it... (Score:2)
light impulses (Score:2)
That's a coincidence. My eyes use "light impulses" to see. So do cameras. Are we going to see another stupid patent now: "a method of procuring the location of objects by sensing light impulses"?
10..9...8..7... (Score:4, Interesting)
This technology will be really easy to block.
Re:10..9...8..7... (Score:2)
Re:10..9...8..7... (Score:2)
Re:10..9...8..7... (Score:2)
IR Cutoff Filters [edmundoptics.com].
Serves me right for not previewing.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Simple solution.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Simple solution.. (Score:2, Informative)
Do these people still not understand P2P (Score:2)
The movie people seem to be as dumb as they music people. The way Internet file sharing works is that you only need one source. Just one person with a camera, to distribute a movie around the globe. So protecting a few movie screens with this tech will not accomplish a damn thing. Just like the mu
Re:Do these people still not understand P2P (Score:2)
Theoretically, sure, one leaked copy of something means everyone can get it. But the same is true of the Ebola virus, and the vast majority of the human population is still here. Ditto AIDS, Herpes, Gonorrhea, Chlamydia (sp -2), etc.
I seem to recall reading about bioweapons research, and being able to reliably predict the scope and extent of the infected area. Why shouldn't the same
Bizarre (Score:2)
Can someone remind me why I'd want to go to one of these cinemas?
Ok... (Score:2)
Come on, no more banging on the last rows? Ok, I read Slashdot, not much banging anyway...
mobile version? (Score:2)
How I think it works. (Score:2, Interesting)
Second, I have not seen a single post that adequately states how this technology really works. Given the level of technical ability
My guess? CCD cameras almost always use an infrared filter. They have to or the color gets screwed up. This technology bathes the theater in infrared light and the camera simply picks up the refle
I forget (Score:2)
I watched one once. The keyword there is one. It was really pointless. Not exactly a high fidelity experience. I guess if some people really desire the cinematic equivalent of a crack whore, each to his own.
Far better to just wait and copy the DVD from Netflix. ;-)
Why not "wash out" the cameras? (Score:5, Interesting)
another solution for the wrong problems... (Score:3, Insightful)
I see news stories all the time about these "bandits" being caught in cinemas with recording devices - but anyone I know who downloads movies deletes anything that turns out to have been recorded this way. Instead, the vast, vast majority of the content available on p2p networks are high quality rips from the screener DVD produced to market the film before its release.
Most of the time, these versions are not only of far higher quality but are available online days or even weeks before the film is even in theaters.
If the cinemas really want to "solve" this problem, maybe they should lean on their distributors a little to change their obscene pricing so the tickets don't need to cost so much and the establishments don't need to inflate refreshments so ludicrously to maintain profitability.
PirateEye? (Score:3, Funny)
Imagine applying this to television (Score:2)
Maybe the MPAA should police their own (Score:2, Insightful)
Here's a thought (Score:2, Interesting)
ALso, I hope they aren't trying to trademark all the quoted phrases on ther web page.....
It detects giant popcorn bags (Score:3, Funny)
Admittedly, I didn't read the story, I just jumped to the "demonstration." The demo seemed less than impressive as it showed that the "Pirate Eye" thing, found two shady looking characters sittinging in an oterwise empty theater sitting next to a tripod with a couple of large popcorn bags sitting on top with holes cut in them.
Now certainly a less sophisticated detection method could be used to weed these guys out.
how it works -- countermeasure (Score:2, Insightful)
This suggests that if we were to deploy a handful of EEPROM-typ chips (the UV-erasable things with the little windows) around the theater, we could probably spoof the system with false positives.
it's a thought.
COOL!!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Make fun of them! (Score:5, Funny)
1. Use additional high quality dielectric IR cutoff filters in front of the camera lens and
2. Make fun of them - take pieces of reflective tape (maybe cut as circels) or bycicle reflectors and stick them to the walls and chairs in the theater. Make it look as there are dozens of cameras recording the show!
Neurons in the brain need about 40 ms (Score:5, Insightful)
What garbage! By that reasoning, the flash from a camera ought to be invisible.
How it works, really (Score:5, Interesting)
You can buy a handheld SpyFinder [yahoo.com]. Here's a customer review [dafh.org] with a discussion of how it works. It uses two lasers, one on the optical axis and one slightly off it, run alternately at a few Hz. Things that have focusing optics followed by a flat reflective surface (which includes most cameras) will blink. Ordinary shiny things will not.
Re:How it works, really (Score:3, Funny)
Do you actually have one?
I would be doubtful as to the usefulness of that product given the only other item for sale is a high power laser pointer for ticking off birds. [yahoo.com]
Re:How it works, really (Score:3, Informative)
Note: PirateEye(TM) does not utlize LASER technology.
If I were them, I'd take an IR picture, then illuminate with IR from in front and take another picture then compare the difference. Most objects don't reflect IR light, comparing things takes people, etc. out of the equation and then you're just left with shiny objects.
You might be able to look at the locations of shiny objects (height, whether there are two of them right next to each
Re:And who will pay for this? (Score:2)
Re:PirateEye in Action (Score:5, Funny)
Re:PirateEye in Action (Score:2)
It is looking for a reflection from the flat surface of the CCD or front of the lense assembly.
putting an angled clear optic in front of the lens will significantly reduce any direct reflection from the camera and only reduce available recording light by a tiny amount.
want to eliminate the reflection completely? get the glass coated with antiglare coatings and have it very slightly mirrored. if you only reduce available light to the camera by 7-10% your recording will not suffer, but it
Lens Reflection (Score:2)
However, it may be true that it will not be set to scan the projecting area. This
Re:Seinfeld episode (Score:2)
Re:Useless (Score:2)
Absolutely. All it takes is one sucess and Pandora's box is opened.
The watermarking technique would be good for distributors to identify theaters where the problems occur.