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Wilco on P2P, Digital Music and the Internet 188

Posted by michael from the some-people-get-it,-some-people-don't dept.
Saint Aardvark writes "As if Wilco wasn't the coolest band in existence anyway, Wired has an interview with them about their relationship with P2P, the Internet, and their fans. For example, they were contacted by fans who'd downloaded A Ghost Is Born before it was released. Lead singer Jeff Tweedy explains, 'They wanted to send money to express solidarity with the fact that we'd embraced the downloading community. We couldn't take the money ourselves, so they asked if we could pick a charity instead -- we pointed them to Doctors Without Borders, and they ended up receiving about $15,000.' Many other choice quotes make this a fascinating read."
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Wilco on P2P, Digital Music and the Internet More

Wilco on P2P, Digital Music and the Internet

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  • How nice for the fans to donate money (Score:5, Funny)

    by Neil Blender ( 555885 ) <neilblender@gmail.com> on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @05:59PM (#10835955)
    Now, if they did that for all the albums they stole, we could end world hunger.

  • Is Slashdot just hotlinking Fark? (Score:3, Funny)

    by kevin_conaway ( 585204 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @05:59PM (#10835960) Homepage
    This is the second story today (the first being the Pixar) that has been taken off the front page of Fark.

    This isnt the first time, just the first time I've bothered to pay attention

  • Doctor's Without Borders? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @06:00PM (#10835972)
    That sounds like a much better charity than the RIAA's Lawyers Without Ethics.
  • ...in Vancouver on the 9th? God almighty, they were great. I'd never realized it before, but Jeff Tweedy has a wicked sense of humour. If they're nearby, treat yourself and go -- it'll be a long, long time before you see another live act this great.

  • Watch out (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Folmer ( 827037 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @06:01PM (#10835979)
    Now RIAA will attack them for condoning piracy...

    • Re:Watch out (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @06:23PM (#10836238)
      This is nothing, Ween [ween.com] is creating their own p2p app [chocodog.com].

    • Re:Watch out (Score:5, Informative)

      by hackstraw ( 262471 ) * on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @06:34PM (#10836345)
      This isn't much of a revelation. Wilco, like many music artists that work for a living (ie, play live gigs), don't depend on record sales for their paychecks, they get it from working.

      Its these bubblegum music manager creation "artists" that cannot play (eg, Ashlee Simpson), but have canned lyrics that appeal to a large number of people that depend on record sales for their income. Actually, its more of the music manager's and the labels that depend on the record sales for income. The artists get a token commission which provides them enough money to feel rich for a period of time until they have to get a real job.

      From Wilco's website:

      wilco does permit audio taping and trading of live performances wherever it does not conflict with venue or other restrictions beyond our control. we do not allow direct soundboard patches. we also do not allow videotaping.wilco supports the free trading of live recordings for non-commercial purposes.

      I would bet that any other taper friendly band [archive.org] would not care about p2p or whatever, because, again, these bands work for a living, and they know they will make money when they are working.

      • Re:Watch out (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Hatta ( 162192 )
        I would bet that any other taper friendly band would not care about p2p or whatever, because, again, these bands work for a living, and they know they will make money when they are working.

        I could fucking care less if everybody downloads our album off the Internet. We're not in a position to be screwed by that at all. We have the one thing the Internet can't touch-live music. If you can actually go out and play your fucking instruments, you won't be replaced by the Internet. If you're a good live act and

      • I would bet that any other taper friendly band would not care about p2p or whatever, because, again, these bands work for a living, and they know they will make money when they are working.

        Unfortunately, one example [allmanbrothers.com] to the contrary is the Allman Brothers. [allmanbrothers.com] They do permit taping and trading, but insist that that trading take place the old fashioned way - one-to-one snail mail trades.

        I think it's probably a result of a combination of the fallout of the napster fervor and a misunderstanding of the online le


  • So by most "cash in hand" business they probably raked in about $300k :-)

    Maybe this is why the RIAA is publicly moaning about P2P... its raking it in, but doesn't want the IRS to investigate!

  • Lost Sales? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by fembots ( 753724 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @06:02PM (#10835993) Homepage
    Selling entertainment is like selling perishable fruit, you need to do it while it's still fresh and desirable.

    For example, I quite like Scissor Sisters' "Take Your Mama", so I paid for the CD and listened to it. But I must admit you can only listen to one song for so many times until you're sick of it. So now the enjoyment from this song is long gone, but I have already paid $20 for this now-known-as piece of plastic and song that I no longer enjoy.

    I believe any potential "lost sales" are from people who, on one hand, don't want to pay for the music, but on the other, want to enjoy that particular music.

    Will this be considered "Lost Sales" if someone told you:
    "Nah, this shitty movie is only worth watching it once, why would I pay for the DVD/Movie?".

    This person could pay for the DVD/Movie and watch it once, or download it from the Internet and watch it once. Either way this person got one unit of enjoyment out of this, but it's not quite the same to capitalist.
    • I believe any potential "lost sales" are from people who, on one hand, don't want to pay for the music, but on the other, want to enjoy that particular music.

      I bought a New York steak at the store for $10.00. I ate it and enjoyed it quite a bit. However, at this point it is a worthless log floating somewhere in the sewer system. Should I have stolen the steak instead?

      • Re:Lost Sales? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by fembots ( 753724 )
        Yes, that's what I'm trying to get to. If you think that piece of shit in the toilet isn't worth $10, you shouldn't have paid for it, or eaten it without paying.

        However, if you think $10 is fair price to buy the initial 10 minutes of juicy, tender chewy feeling in your mouth, then you should've paid for it, not eaten it for free and backed up your action by suggesting its final destination in the sewer.

        I can't see anyone can get away with going into a movie theatre, watched a movie without paying and said
        • Actually, here in Vancouver, bus drivers are told to let people on if they refuse to pay because it reduces the violence towards bus drivers. Just an fyi...
      • It has been pointed out repeatedly, here on slashdot, and elsewhere: When it comes to digital media the word "steal" is somehow lacking. We may use the word "steal" when we deprive someone of something through illegitimate means.

        However, when we "steal" digital media, the original media remains unchanged and still in the posession of the owner. Therefore, the media has not been "stolen", but duplicated.

        The movie and music industry likes to label people who "duplicate" media as "thieves" and liken their act

    • Re:Lost Sales? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by JoseFilipe ( 794838 )
      If you were only interested in that particular song, maybe you could have bought it from iTMS or even the single. If you bought the single, you would get some rare tracks!
    • This person could pay for the DVD/Movie and watch it once, or download it from the Internet and watch it once. Either way this person got one unit of enjoyment out of this, but it's not quite the same to capitalist
      Remember though, if you keep increasing your units of enjoyment, eventually the fairy of happiness will let you carry up to 50 bombs at once.
  • Why not? The article never says. It's not like there was some tangled rights issue. They article does say they had the rights to do whatever they wanted with it after Reprise dropped them, and they obviously had the rights to give it away, so why couldn't they take money for it?

    • Re:"We couldn't take the money ourselves" (Score:5, Informative)

      by xThinkx ( 680615 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @06:09PM (#10836091) Homepage

      It's most likely a record label issue, while record labels (usually) can't prevent you for doing things for free, they DO control all money you receive for sales of albums, merch, etc. That's why bands that make gold records often make more off of non-record-company related deals (like interviews, photo shoots, hosting MTV shows, modeling contracts, movies, etc.) than actual album sales (not that the album sale profits rae anything to laugh at).

    • I reread the article and answered my own question. The record they chose to release after being dropped was Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. The record fans were attempting to pay for was A Ghost Is Born, their newest album being released by the label Nonesuch, which had been leaked onto P2P extremely early. They couldn't take money for A Ghost Is Born because Nonesuch obviously had publishing rights.
  • Hasn't Roger Wilco [vintage-sierra.com] been available for download for a long time?

  • playing a little devil's advocate... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jxyama ( 821091 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @06:09PM (#10836090)
    while this is very nice, does this make "traditional" musicians "evil"? are volunteers always better than those who charge for their services? could majority of contributors to OSS afford to do so if they had no external income to support their "hobbies"?

    don't we all have to make money somewhere to live and could we "fault" those wanting to? if you can make a living via hobbies, more power to them... but is it wrong to make a living?

    • It's not wrong to make a living as long as you're ethical about it. Phishing or spamming may be a way to make a living but it's not ethical. And neither is suing your fans or restricting the sharing of published information such as music. And before someone goes "blah blah blah, how will there be an incentive without all the $$$ that comes from restricting people", just remember that the entire Renaissance got along just fine without copyright laws.
      • just remember that the entire Renaissance got along just fine without copyright laws

        Wasn't the Renaissance all about patrons supporting the artists so they didn't starve? I don't think there was much marketing done once an artist found someone to feed him. Add to that the fact that Gutenberg didn't make his printing press until the Italian Renaissance was apparently underway, and copyrights didn't seem all that necessary. Even the later northern European renaissance wasn't exactly the deluge of popular m
    • no one is saying "traditional musicians" are evil. this is an example of something that should be obvious. the internet is a new distrubution channel. just because someone can get your music for free on P2P doesn't mean your going to go broke and not be able to make a living. if anything you'll get more exposure and make more money. i'd never heard of wilco before yankee hotel foxtrot. now they're even bigger.
    • while this is very nice, does this make "traditional" musicians "evil"? are volunteers always better than those who charge for their services? could majority of contributors to OSS afford to do so if they had no external income to support their "hobbies"?

      They are mainstream artists getting mainstream play, mainstream press, and apparently making mainstream money yet they just seem to have the attitude of "woah, cool" instead of "woah, not enough money made".

      Well, to me, that makes the "traditional musici
    • You know there was a time that art wasn't about money. Google gives everything away and they still happen to be making just a little bit of money. And, I don't recall there being a similarity between "making a living" and having more money than most small African nations. There are still such things as concerts [impossible to reproduce experience, not piratable] which I would be willing to pay for.
    • WTF are you talking about? Wilco makes money the same way Metallica does. Their last CD debuted at number 8 on the Billboard charts.
    • while this is very nice, does this make "traditional" musicians "evil"?

      That's a bit stretched. The traditional musicians (before the Britney Spears explosion and the like) used to (and still do) earn their money from playing live, selling merchandise, as well as selling records. Don't confuse the talentless boobs-on-legs who sing stupid songs the music execs composed for them and then sit on their asses and parade themselves in teeny magazines for traditional musicians.

      Actually, many bands (like Metalli
  • Gotta love a band that uses computer terms on their album covers:

    Wilco [clinko.com] is less-than or equal to a ghost is born [wilcoweb.com]

    • Re:Computer Nerds (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Too bad they don't put out good music. Granted, it sounds better than the crap TMBG puts out, but this stuff is pretty whiney and simplistic. It makes me want to drown each member of the band in a tub of acid.
      • Heh, priceless.

        While I have nothing in particular against Wilco per se, I posit that Supergrass are the coolest band to have graced this planet over the past ten years.
  • I tried to download music from their site, but I can't find this button. Am I blind?

    • its not up anymore (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      they don't leave everything up all the time. however if you go to "roadcase" right now you can stream one of their recent concerts i believe.
  • We couldn't take the money ourselves
    Somebody needs to show those guys how to setup a paypal account. At least the money definitely went to a good cause rather than some RIAA lawyer's wallet.

  • Wilco (Score:3, Interesting)

    by blackmonday ( 607916 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @06:13PM (#10836142) Homepage
    Thing is, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot is such an amazing album, that even if the album hadn't been released online, I still think it would have been succesful. (I'm for it though!) Great music spreads by word of mouth and CD-R and P2P, regardless of who made it. My buddy made me a copy of YHF and that's how I got into that band.

    By the way there's a great documentary of the band making the CD, its called I am Trying To Break Your Heart. I highly recommend it. Shows the whole process of being dumped by your label then getting picked up by another label, both of whom were owned by the same umbrella company. Strange stuff, today's music business.

    Wilco's ethics are very punk rock, even if their music belongs on its own planet. If you haven't heard YHF, do yourself a favor and pick it up.

    • Re:Wilco (Score:3, Funny)

      by utexaspunk ( 527541 )
      My buddy made me a copy of YHF and that's how I got into that band

      You're in Wilco? I didn't know they read slashdot! What do you play? Can I have your autograph? Do you think maybe your buddy could burn me a copy of YHF so I can be in the band, too?
    • I second that recommendation. YHF is one of the most unique, daring albums of the last few years. My friend thinks Wilco might be the next Radiohead - limited radio play but huge following.
    • Thing is, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot is such an amazing album, that even if the album hadn't been released online, I still think it would have been succesful.

      That's the point exactly -- you're right, but the A&R reps sure didn't think so and demanded that Wilco re-record the album and make it more demographic-friendly. The band said no, bought out the rights to their own stuff, and released it online. And then, surprise, not to long later, record labels are beating on their doors wanting to sell the album.

  • Article's on fark.com too (Score:5, Interesting)

    by EZmagz ( 538905 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @06:22PM (#10836234) Homepage
    Just got done reading the interview, and it's nice to see that some musicians are still pretty grounded and down to earth. By far my favorite quote in the article is this:
    WN: Your critics might say that it's easy for you to say that, given that you're already a commercial success.

    Tweedy: I'm grateful that I've sold enough to have a house, take care of my kids and live decently. But that's a gift, not an entitlement.

    Those last three words blew me away. Although I'm not a huge Wilco fan, I definitely appreciate where they're coming from. To me at least, they embody what a True Musician consists of. Somebody who plays music for the sake of making music. Somebody who if they make enough money playing at clubs and hawking CDs to make a living, then GREAT! But if not, they'll still be playing on the weekends and at nights when they're done with their 9-to-5.

    Now contrast that with Britney Spears or Ashley Simpson. Think they'd be singing in their garage if their "music" career never took off? Fuck no. Since they only care about entertaining and not making music, they'd probably be just another coked-out stripper on the LA Strip, telling you how they're going to make it big and be somebody between lapdances and serving you a $10 cocktail.

    Regardless, it's glad to know there's still a few bands out there who are in it for the love.

    • Regardless, it's glad to know there's still a few bands out there who are in it for the love. There are a lot of bands that are still in it for love. A lot of them are into Bluegrass, Blues, Acoustic, Celtic, Classical, etc. and not into mainstream pop. And probably 99% of the good artists never get that Record Company deal, many because they are unwilling to sign away all rights to their songs in exchange.

      I bought Yankee Hotel Foxtrot mostly to support Wilco... I have yet to decide if it is really good, or

    • Stop trying to treat music like it's a tennis shoe, something to be branded. If the music industry wants to save money, they should take a look at some of their six-figure executive expense accounts. All those lawsuits can't be cheap, either.
      and
      Treating your audience like thieves is absurd. Anyone who chooses to listen to our music becomes a collaborator.

      People who look at music as commerce don't understand that. They are talking about pieces of plastic they want to sell, packages of intellectual propert
    • Since they only care about entertaining and not making music, they'd probably be just another coked-out stripper on the LA Strip, telling you how they're going to make it big and be somebody between lapdances and serving you a $10 cocktail.

      Damn. I was worried you weren't going to be able to work any misogyny into that post.

      Saved it at the end. Close one.
  • I'm glad more musicians are seeing the benefit of online distribution. I just hope more of them release songs in lossless form, without DRM. Magnatune.com works this way (and artists get %50 of sale price) and I hope more artists choose to follow this model.

    • "I'm glad more musicians are seeing the benefit of online distribution. I just hope more of them release songs in lossless form, without DRM. Magnatune.com works this way (and artists get %50 of sale price) and I hope more artists choose to follow this model."

      You bring up a good point. Magnatune [magnatune.com] is the epitomy of what many Slashdotters want from a record label, yet their catalog and sales are virtually non-existent compared to enterprises like the iTunes Music Store that eschew the "payment optional"

  • When I read this article (on Fark, yesterday), I immediately went to Wilco's site and ordered a copy of their CD "A Ghost is Born," and if they swing through Seattle I will take in their show. Band promotion through free downloads instead of record contracts is the future of music, and is the key to getting the record industry off our backs before they buy enough legislation to keep us from accessing our hard drives without their permission.

    Fame and fortune have been the carrot on the stick which the record industry has been able to dangle in front of musicians for the past century. When a few bands demonstrate that it's possible to succeed without signing over their lives to a big label, others will follow. Reaching #8 on Billboard is one of the first cracks in this wall. Help it spread!
  • Eventually all our media with be categorized by user for download, and you can see/hear/learn things that interest you.
    Its a global library and it will happen.

    God spoke to me:
    www.geocities.com/James_Sager_PA

  • makes you realize the size of the market (Score:5, Insightful)

    by museumpeace ( 735109 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @06:52PM (#10836534) Journal
    given the dismal % yield on most charity soliciting, getting 15000$ form total strangers is a good showing. This is just an anecdote from the war raging between copyright holders, major labels and file swappers but it does make me think: The size of the market if you include all who file-swap and download must be vastly greater than the market that only counts those who buy CD's or are on the fence about a CD purchase. If a band could get a few pennies/track each from the larger market and nobody was peeing away millions on promotion, it just seems possible they could earn a living by their art and not soak their fans in the process. If downloaders thought of themselves as "supporting the band's future work" rather than "buying this song" ,which they could just as easily swipe, maybe they'd pay a little and not mind. Is that the paradigmn shift thats gnawing away at the mass marketing of music as we now know it? Given the huge exposure potential of freely available streamed samples, why would you need to spend on poromotion anyway? For years we have had shareware vendors giving away one version of a program in hopes that users would be pleased enough to pay for a better version. How similar is that model to what Wilco is doing?

    • Re:makes you realize the size of the market (Score:4, Insightful)

      by NerveGas ( 168686 ) on Tuesday November 16, 2004 @07:17PM (#10836767)
      given the dismal % yield on most charity soliciting

      That's just the problem, their soliciting. You can't give money to a single charity without forever being flooded with a hundred other charities calling you for more money.

      In my last house, someone with the previous number had once given money to the Veterens of Foreign Wars and the local Police charity. It did not matter how many times I told them that I would never, ever give them a penny because they called so often, they never quit. And neither did the hundred other charities with whom the donation lists had been shared.

      I really wouldn't mind giving money to more charities. I just wish that they could see it as a kind, benevolent act, and be thankful for it without pestering me for the rest of my life.

      steve
      • I really wouldn't mind giving money to more charities. I just wish that they could see it as a kind, benevolent act, and be thankful for it without pestering me for the rest of my life.

        Change the name from charities to magazines, and you've hit the biggest reason I won't consider getting another magazine subscription, even for free.

        I'd rather pick up a magazine once in a while at the supermarket that interests me than submit to the telemarketing via a subscription.

        I'm not getting publishers clearingho
  • If you actually want to broaden your musical horizons, try to find some Slim Cessna's Auto Club or any of Jay Munly's solo work.

    Now that shit's original.
  • WN: What are your thoughts on the RIAA's ongoing lawsuits against individual file sharers?

    Tweedy: We live in a connected world now. Some find that frightening. If people are downloading our music, they're listening to it. The internet is like radio for us.

    WN: You don't agree with the argument that file sharing hurts musicians' ability to earn a living?

    Tweedy: I don't believe every download is a lost sale.
    --
    WN: What if the efforts to stop unauthorized music file sharing are successful? How would that

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