Rodriguez uses Linux to Edge out ILM 192
An anonymous reader writes "A Linux device helped legendary independent filmmaker Robert Rodriguez (El Mariachi, Desperado, Spy Kids, Once Upon a Time in Mexico, and others) win the race with ILM (Industrial Light and Magic) to create the first movie ever to use a digital format supporting full-bandwidth RGB. Rodriguez's Sin City, which opens April 1, was shot in Dual Link, or "4:4:4" format, and transferred between tapes and hard drives using SpectSoft's Linux-based RaveHD DDR (digital disk recorder)."
Wonder if... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Wonder if... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Wonder if... (Score:2)
Huh? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Uhm... what?
From TFA (Score:5, Informative)
"It's really the same as 1:1:1," explains Howard. "It just means 'take RGB, break it up, send part of it down one wire, and part down the other wire.'"
The compromises in traditional Y'CbCr formats were designed to minimize perceptual loss, keying on the human eye's varying sensitivity to luminescence at various color frequencies. We are most sensitive to brightness in green light, less so in reds, and least with blue. This explains why studios often shoot against a "greenscreen" -- Y'CbCr has most information about green, so it's the easiest color for a software program to identify and replace.
Re:From TFA (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:From TFA (Score:3, Informative)
That is true for video, but most studios use film for greenscreening work. The resolution is going to be much higher, and the colors will not have any compression artifacts (which is why filters like this [highend2d.com], or this [highend2d.com] are used. 4:4:4 stores more color information, minimizing those artifacts.
Also, the color of the screen really doesn't have to be green. Depending on the subject in front of the screen, it can be blue, red, or even black.
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)
"But what about "4:4:4 Y'CbCr"?!
Y'CbCr, also known as YUV, is the color space used by film editing equipment. Y represents luminance, while Cb and Cr are color difference signals.
Consumer DV (digital video) cameras typically use a 4:1:1 Y'CbCr format, in which luminance is sampled for each pixel, while Cb and Cr are sampled at every fourth pixel. SD (standard definition) cameras use a 4:2:2 format. HD cameras can use 4:2:2, or a 4:2:0 format based on "spatial" samples of 2x2-pixel squares. Dual Link, however, uses a 4:4:4 technique."
Re:Huh? (Score:3, Informative)
(or was it 4:2:0 you get out of a camera?)
Wikipedia to the rescue! (Score:5, Informative)
Wikipedia to the rescue again!
--grendel drago
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Windows.. (Score:2)
Gee, a second incarnation of the same tired BSOD joke. Let's all start slappin our knees!
Green Screen (Score:2)
Frank Miller (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, its Frank Miller's Sin City. IMHO the writer is more important than the director.
Re:Frank Miller (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Frank Miller (Score:3, Informative)
If the guy who wrote the comic books also wrote the screenplay AND is co-directing, then anyone whining about canon should be put to sleep.
Re:Frank Miller (Score:3, Informative)
"Robert Rodriguez scored Kill Bill: Vol. 2 (2004) for $1. Quentin Tarantino said he would repay him by directing a segment of this movie for $1. Tarantino, a vocal proponent of film-over-digital, has said that he was curious to get hands-on experience with the HD cameras which Rodriguez lauds. When asked about his experience, Tarantino merely replied, "Mission Accomplished.""
Re:Frank Miller (Score:1)
Re:Frank Miller (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Frank Miller (Score:4, Informative)
As a result of leaving the Guild (or being forced out) Rodriguez lost his contract with Paramount to direct the big budget John Carter of Mars (Princess of Mars). Thats got ot hurt.
Lucas had a dispute with the Guild back in the day and dropped out as well
Re:Frank Miller (Score:2)
Re:Frank Miller (Score:3, Informative)
(The Directors Guild only allows for 1 director per movie).
Are you sure about that? So what do they do in movies that are anthologies, say like the Twilight Zone movie or the upcoming Eros? There are also many movies that have two directors, like He Said, She Said or movies by the Farrelly brothers? No I think it's because the DGA may demand that directors be members of a Guild but I couldbe wrong.
Re:Frank Miller (Score:2)
Days before beginning production on the Dimension drama "Sin City," Rodriguez resigned his DGA membership so that he could co-direct with Frank Miller, a film neophyte who created, wrote and illustrated the three-book graphic novel series on which the movie is based.
DGA rules dictate that there be only one director assigned to direct a motion picture at any given time, although the guild occasionally grants a waiver to that policy. On Thursday, a DGA spokesman said, "The guild
Totally OT, but what the hey... (Score:2)
Re:Frank Miller (Score:5, Insightful)
Rodriguez is a fanatic of Frank Millers work and he would certainly be the first to jump up and correct someone if they said "Rodriguez's Sin City".
RGB-B&W (Score:5, Funny)
Re:RGB-B&W (Score:2)
Most obviously, color keying.
But also, having three color channels effectively gives you three different black and white versions of the same image.
Re:RGB-B&W (Score:2)
Nice review at sarah. word. (Score:5, Informative)
For lack of a more eloquent explanation, "Sin City" freaking rules.
Remember the first time you saw "Pulp Fiction"? You were unnerved and at times downright repelled, but you admitted that it was the freshest, most original thing to be put into a theater since... ever, and you couldn't wait to talk about how amazing it was with everyone you knew? "Sin City" is kind of like that.
http://sarahlane.typepad.com/sarahword/2005/03/ce
1. Is "Sin City" a family movie?
- Heavens no. It's incredibly graphic and gruesome. I know YOU'RE into that, but don't bring the kids.
6. Does the all-star cast detract from the story at all?
- Refreshingly, no. No one character is the main star, it's more like a bunch of supporting roles. Great supporting roles. These actors are stoked.
8. Are we talking CG animation or live action?
- Almost all the live action was done with green screens and props, then the magic was painted in later. It's amazing.
10. I was pleased to see lots of hot chicks in the trailer. Can I expect more of that?
- You sure can, my friend! But they'll also chop your head off. Literally.
Marv should be the star (Score:2)
So even though the trailer looks amazing and I am really excited to see it, I'm kinda dis
Re:Nice review at sarah. word. (Score:3, Informative)
# After a poor Hollywood experience in the early-'90s, Frank Miller refused to relinquish the movie rights to any of his comic works, "Sin City" in particular. Robert Rodriguez, a longtime fan of the comic, filmed his own "audition" for the director's spot in secret. The footage, shot in early 2004, featured Josh Hartnett and Marley Shelton acting out the "Sin City" short-story "The Customer is Always Right". He presented the finished footage to Miller with
Comicon (Score:2)
>The footage, shot in early 2004, featured Josh Hartnett and Marley Shelton acting out the "Sin City" short-story "The Customer is Always Right"
It is said that you can actually watch three minutes of that footage here [thepiratebay.org]:
Oh dear god so relieved. (Score:2)
Alan Moore must be kicking himself after that one, saying "Never again, you American fuckers!". No, wait, he's probably rolling in a large pile of money, and more power to him for it. If it means he's fed and clothed and able to write
To who? (Score:2)
I think the thing that bugs me about stories with real potential ("I, Robot", for instance) being butchered is that they preclude the making of a better film from the same source material for at least a decade. Supposedly there's a Harlan Ellison script for it floating around out there
Slightly Offtopic (Score:5, Informative)
Incidentally, another distinction earned by Rodriguez during the making of Sin City, is that he joined George Lucas and others who have been kicked out of the Director's Guild. Rodriguez's offense, Howard says, was working with a co-director -- Sin City comic book creator Frank Miller -- who doesn't belong to the Guild.
I know it's slightly offtopic, but Robert Rodriguez wasn't kicked out of the DGA. He quit because they wouldn't allow him to credit Frank Miller as a co-director.
Kudos to him, I say.
Seem a bit odd... (Score:1, Insightful)
Seems they could've chosen a more impressive set to show off their technology :/
But what does this mean to the movie viewer? (Score:3, Insightful)
With all due respect to the writer of the article, in practical terms, I'm not sure what this means to the viewer of the film . . . Does this mean that the colors/details look better, or that there are less losses in color/detail during the application of digital effects, or is this fairly immaterial to the end viewer and will the end product look pretty much the same as 4:2:2 work?
And to extend the question beyond the big screen, will this make a difference in the DVD transfer of this film, or will any benefit be negated by losses during DVD transfer?
Re:But what does this mean to the movie viewer? (Score:5, Informative)
Which means that they spend less time chroma-keying (picking out the background colors) and more time making movies. As with any big project, the finished product is filled with flaws that only the actual creator can put his finger on, but the overall sense of polish makes a big difference to the feeling you get when you watch the movie.
You get the same effect writing software: all those little hacks you had to do to get it out the door aren't immediately visible to the user, but they'll piss you off every time you look at them.
The changes aren't even necessarily subtle: they may have to substantially alter a shot if they can't get the background to drop out properly. You wouldn't notice without being in the editing booth, but you'll probably like the movie that much more for getting more of the director's vision onto the screen.
I'm a director [for the stage] myself, and though it's very different from film, we're constantly asking "how much can I get away with?" rather than "what can I create?" You tell yourself that the audience won't notice that you couldn't find the right prop, or that you didn't have time to get rid of the dim spot in the lights, but it pisses you the hell off and looks unprofessional even if the audience couldn't elucidate the difference.
It would be interesting to have a director go into detail on a commentary track to say, "Well, we would have done X, Y, and Z, but we couldn't because the technology was too limited." The closest you get is the re-released Star Wars movies. Well, maybe it's not such a good idea after all.
Re:But what does this mean to the movie viewer? (Score:2)
Re:But what does this mean to the movie viewer? (Score:3, Interesting)
Not much, it just means a less cost to create the same end result. Some details of the end result may not have been fiscally possible otherwise, but only the film freaks would really notice them.
For the most part, it just means more profit for the MPAA-members distributing the film and Rodriguez himself.
However, I have to admire Rodriguez for his "guerilla" approach to film
Re:But what does this mean to the movie viewer? (Score:2)
Yes. I seriously recommend watching the making-of documentary on the Once Upon A Time In Mexico DVD. It is absolutely awesome how he was able to produce a theatrical film essentially in his garage. There are also a large nu
Re:But what does this mean to the movie viewer? (Score:2)
It doesn't mean ANYTHING to the viewer... Just like breaking the world speed record doesn't mean anything to the average car buyer.
It's a milestone. It means a few things to the makers of the film, but nothing groundbreaking. They mention color-keying, s
What? No. You're wrong. (Score:2)
What? No. You're wrong. Many formats use color subsampling, true, but many still formats don't. JPEG defaults to 4:2:2 subsampling in all of the implementations I've seen, but I think it supports 4:4:4. And lossless formats, like PNG or TGA or (shudder) TIFF, clearly support full color inclusion.
A thought experiment: render some CGI scene, or do time-lapse photography with a still digital camera
Re:What? No. You're wrong. (Score:4, Insightful)
And there is a difference, at least when you're picking out stills and doing CMYK separations on them. Look how blocky and crapulent the yellow channel looks when you separate out an MPEG still or a JPEG image, and how sharp the black channel looks.
The real question is "Is size a consideration?". If it is not, do an uncompressed 4:4:4 AVI. I believe it will take around 100GB/hr in SDTV, and something like 600GB/hr in full HDTV. Don't quote me on those, but something like that. You can do lossless compression, but it will still be *huge* videos.
Now, if we assume that it is, the real question is, are the bits better put to use compressing the vid, or improving the color depth? Personally, I'd rather take two separate 4:2:2 pixels than two 4:4:4 pixels mixed up to save space (a gross oversimplification, but you get the idea).
Depending on what we want, it might be more effective to increase resolution, decrease compression or increase the frame rate than it is to improve the color clarity.
Resolution: SDTV is enough if you are more than 10x the screen size away. HDTV is enoug hif you are more than 3x the screen size away. In front of my PC, or if I could get a video wall, I'd be maybe 1x away. You'd need a super-HDTV that is to HDTV that which HDTV is to SDTV.
Compression: Difficult to say. Trained eyes can spot artifacts (blocking, shearing etc.) in almost any vid. Lossless vids would mean much bigger vids.
Framerate: We can easily move to 60p. That should put us near the "flicker rate" of the eye at 72Hz, perhaps even 90p for perfection.
So yes... the colors aren't perfect. But nothing else is either.
Kjella
Re:What? No. You're wrong. (Score:2)
You simply misunderstood my point. Sure, there are formats that support 4:4:4, but consumer equipment doesn't support 4:4:4, and surely won't for many years.
On a PC, you can do anything, but you aren't going to be able to go out and by a 4:4:4 version of a movie any time soon.
DVDs are limited to 4:2:2. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are going to be limited t
The big race... (Score:2, Interesting)
I wonder how George will take the news? I predict he'll sp
Re:The big race... (Score:2)
This article is misleading... (Score:1, Insightful)
DDR (Score:5, Funny)
Re:DDR (Score:2)
*sigh* (Score:4, Interesting)
VA no longer sells heavy Linux boxes but obviously someone is, and they're selling them to Hollywood.
*sigh*
Re:*sigh* (Score:3, Interesting)
anyhow, yes. There were companies who competed with VA after I left (angstrom microsystems), that i helped start (angstrom microsystems) that i eventually left (angstrom microsystem). They made rackmounts (and still do i think) specifically for rendering and we put them all over the place (rhythm and hues, pixar, dreamworks).
but it is a niche market and competitive as hell.
Re:*sigh* (Score:2)
The particular Linux boxen mentioned here aren't a render farm, but rather a video server (think of it as a very expensive Tivo).
This particular box has a list price of $25k, and seems to be a strong competitor for other digital video tape recorder replacements, such as the Grass Valley M-Series (which IIRC starts at about $30k), and various other o
Sigh. (Score:5, Interesting)
Besides that, this whole thing is completely wrong. We've been using 4:4:4 for years in film production with a device called a "datacine." Go out and shoot 35mm film, which by the way has more color sensitivity than any video camera on the market, then run it through a device that scans each frame at high bit depth and high resolution in (you guessed it) 4:4:4 RGB.
Seriously, these machines have been around for more than a decade. RGB production is nothing new. You guys are making it sound like it's revolutionary, or worse, like it COULDN'T BE DONE WITHOUT LINUX. Inferno has done 4:4:4 since the mid-90s, and that runs on SGI gear.
Re:Sigh. (Score:2)
filesystems (Score:4, Interesting)
During ingestion, the RaveHD wrote sequential DPX files for each shot to a standard Linux JFS filesystem on a fiber-channel disk array, Howard says. When all required shots had been ingested, the entire JFS filesystem was made available via Samba and gigabit Ethernet to the studio's production workers.
JFS isn't one of the high profile filesystems on Linux; People usually talk about Reiser, EXT3, or XFS. I wonder what lead the developers to choose JFS.
noah
Re:filesystems (Score:2)
Ironic (Score:2)
Don't forget to mention the effects were done at.. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Don't forget to mention the effects were done a (Score:2)
Ignore the movie watch the extras.... (Score:3, Interesting)
There is a extra on the dvd for the film where RR ( heavens forbid i even attempt to spell his name ! ) explains how to create some impressive visual and audio affects for your own home movies ( the family friendly ones people ! ) . He gives a very clear and engaging discussion with example film of how to include visual affects , editing and audio additions to make the films more interesting. Id say he understands how open source benefits every on e since he is so willing to share his expertise and experiences.
As for Sin City
...and for Once Upon a Time ... (Score:2)
He had a really good tip -- learn to cook your favorite food. Get really good at cooking it, then learn to cook your next favorite, etc.
Title's a little misleading... (Score:2, Interesting)
Should probably read:
"Rodriguez beats ILM to use RaveHD DDR on a commercial film release"
If you read the article, you'll see that ILM are using the same kit, so edging out has nothing to do with it - he's just completed the first film that uses one. That said, ILM did used to be first with everything new and shiny in film, so maybe it is a bit of a shock.
Anyhows Sin City looks mainly black and white, so what's with the 4:4:4 format?
float, float, float RGB (Score:3, Interesting)
Graphics cards will probably start doing this soon. It's a way out of the "shades of black" problem in games.
Color Space (Score:2)
I do have a problem with the article in that it assumes that the color space between RGB and Y'CbCr formats are the same. I regularly use an editor that can work in both color spaces but if I work on a scene using tools based on RGB color space, I need to apply an effect over the rest of that shot (or scene) that limits the Y'CbCr to RGB color space.
The difference is subtle but noticeable, especially in film (or "digital film").
Additionally, the tools Rodriguez will use to edit his footage will run on Mic
Re:Color Space (Score:2)
Um ... available for standard definition (television) [discreet.com] only.
I think it's admirable that AutoDesk is supporting Linux at all but I would hesitate to edit a film on standard definition if I could not up-rez to high definition on the same tool. AutoDesk would have you do a standard definition (perhaps letterboxed) "rough-cut" and then buy an SGI for full resolution. SGIs run Irix, which is a great operating system but hardly a derivation of Linux.
I do not usually reply to "anonymous" people here on Slashdot b
Explain... (Score:2, Funny)
He is a filmmaker - but how is he legendary and how is he independent?
Re:Explain... (Score:2)
probably cost less than the Columbia Lady intro animation
Independent for doing the editing by himself.
Not the first use (Score:2, Interesting)
The Viper Filmstream camera has been used on at least two features prior to this and also uses Dual Link output to a RAID.
http://www.thomson.net/EN/Home/Press/PressReleases /CorporatePress/PREN040209.htm [thomson.net]
Just setting the facts straight.
It's still YUV though. (Score:2)
YUV/Y Cr Cb is a hack. Originally defined as Y Crb it was a way of fitting colour on to a signal and retain compatibility with monochrome equiment. Because of the available bandwidth on the signal the colour differences had to have a lower resolution which was fine because there are less colour receptors in the eyes
Which wasn't really a competition since... (Score:2, Interesting)
Great... (Score:2)
Re:Are ILM relavent today ? (Score:5, Insightful)
works in progress (Score:2)
This looks to be a good survey of visual F/X oriented films currently in production or pre-production: Upcoming Effects Films [cinefex.com]
"Jarhead" is based on a sniper's experience in the Gulf War, and a change of pace for ILM.
Re:Are ILM [relevant] today ? (Score:3, Interesting)
today i can create on a home PC in hours what ILM would have taken years
Technically, yes, but you need a lot of really skilled writers and animators to create the movie in the first place. Merely having the capability to render photorealistic 3D images does not by itself make a good movie -- look at the difference between Final Fantasy: The Sprits Within and any Pixar production to see that.
with the rise of even schools having massive renderfarms (like the g5 one)
A
Re:Are ILM [relevant] today ? (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re:Are ILM [relevant] today ? (Score:2)
Again, Dangerous Visions (Score:4, Insightful)
A more relevant factor in ILM's relevance is budget. ILM has big budgets, to attract talent and explore more opportunities, more of which they can afford to lose before hitting a winner. But their budget is so high that they can only be hired by big budget projects. Which are run by people who fear any risk, and which tend to make effects budgets "show their value" by featuring the effects, rather than using effects solely to support the rest of the picture (characters, story, etc). So we get ILM working big, bombastic, boring projects. Meanwhile, cheaper (Linux, etc) effects houses can spring up, try stuff, experiment with both effects and other risky, unproven parts of the picture. Again, the bottleneck is brains: if ILM supports the vision of a visionary film, it has an advantage. If ILM's execs apply it to the deadend of mere "special effects extravaganzas", it will be as relevant as fireworks exhibitions.
Re:Again, Dangerous Visions (Score:2)
If you mean new computers, no they don't design them anymore since about the 90s. They used to when there was not much in the way of graphics workstations, like the Pixar Image Computer in the 80s. They do sometimes do a little bit of designing but usually with a vendor.
You be surprised hoy many small projects ILM works on, and sometimes just in a handfull of shots.
Sm
Re:Again, Dangerous Visions (Score:2)
I'd blame the ILM execs if they committed the company to a bizmodel where they can do only expensive VFX which the studios prioritize, to "get their money's worth", and upstage the rest of the movie. As you point out, ILM is diverse enough to also compete with the small shops. But if ILM could only be asked to do extravaganzas, then I'd blame their execs for doing
Re:Again, Dangerous Visions (Score:2)
By "machines" I mean their whole tech apparatus
OK, just wanted to clarify lest someone else get confused.
But if ILM could only be asked to do extravaganzas, then I'd blame their execs for doing only extravaganzas.
That's they thing, they have never been asked to do only extravaganzas, neither by film studios or their own management. Although big budget VFX is their bread and butter (and in the very beginning that was the only place to get work, but Out of Africa and Mishima changed that). But fo
Re:Again, Dangerous Visions (Score:2)
I think we just agree. Not doing those important CG effects was a bad decision by the movie director, not second-guessed by the movie producer, possibly made by the director of photography, and possibly a mistake by the CG staff that no one noticed - though they should have. ILM (like their 1st-tier peers) doesn't make those kinds of mistakes, bec
Re:Again, Dangerous Visions (Score:2)
Re:Again, Dangerous Visions (Score:2)
As an aside, the production had to get some sort of special permit for all the rigging they built
Re:Are ILM relavent today ? (Score:2)
That's sort of like saying a progammer can get twice as much done if he has twice as fast of computer. Think about it.
Re:Are ILM relavent today ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just like having a copy of the GIMP doesn't make you into one of the leading creative ad agencies in the world. It takes a mix of talent, skill, experience and tools to be the top of your field.
Re:Are ILM relavent today ? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Are ILM relavent today ? (Score:1)
Re:Are ILM relavent today ? (Score:1)
AP says otherwise.
Secondly, the first sentence in your fourth paragraph is wrong; it's a run-on sentence.
Commas can be used to join a series of independent clauses. It's not something you see very often, but it's not wrong.
I suppose your post would've been much funnier if you weren't being so hypocritical.
I wonder if you know what "hypocritical" means?
Re:Are ILM relavent today ? (Score:2)
And I would argue that using commas to join independent clauses IS incorrect, as this is exactly what colons and semicolons are for.
I stand corrected on the 80's/80s thing; I had improperly remembered the AP style guide as saying that they do require apostrophes.
Re:Are ILM relavent today ? (Score:2)
Pan
Re:max payne? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:max payne? (Score:1)
The voiceover sound and attitude of the whole film is totally Max Payne
Re:look at me (Score:2, Funny)
Re:look at me (Score:2)
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Re:if it was all linux, why use samba? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:In contrast with shitty movie makers... (Score:3)
Your point?
Re:In contrast with shitty movie makers... (Score:2)
I'm not all that fond of Lucas's movie making abilities either, but what does that have to do with email? The dude is from an older generation than us. If you're going to prove he's bad at making movies, point at the last two he's made instead of turning computer use into an IQ test.
Damn right. (Score:2)
I was a twit. But I think I've become less of a twit now. Thank you, jms!
--grendel drago
Re:I like a person that (Score:2)
http://softpixel.com/~cwright/programming/co