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Education Programming Software Technology

Hardware or Software Major? 574

Posted by Cliff from the which-direction-to-take dept.
fa1uzure asks: "Recently, there have been many articles on Slashdot about the lack of people enrolling in IT courses in post-secondary, as well as the need for more people in these areas. Being a Computer Science student, this is great news for me, meaning I may be in demand in the future. But CS at WLU is essentially a software-only course, as it is in many other universities around the world. In most of these articles, it generally says that the IT industry is loosing the new graduates, but it does not specify which area of IT is most at risk. As I move into my second year, I would like to know, are hardware people going to be far more in demand than the software people, or would software still be a better choice than a hardware-centred degree? I could easily transfer to a hardware oriented program but would like to know in which direction the future is moving before I make any choices."
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Hardware or Software Major? More

Hardware or Software Major?

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  • There are 3 things to consider in a degree... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    1 Hardware
    2 Hardware
    and
    3 Hardware

    I cant stree that enough and make no mistake about it that the people in Hardware are the future systems engineers. They never get laid off and are highly sought after. You can practicly name your salry expect around ~100k @ 5 - 7 years and live where ever you want. Long hours every once in a while but if you didn't have so many meetings with higher ups than you would'nt have the face time.

    In case you didn't under stand: Hardware, Hardware, Hardware.

    Case closed.

    • Re:There are 3 things to consider in a degree... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by matt_king ( 19018 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:51PM (#12376321)
      As someone who switched from EE to CS, take my advice: do what you enjoy. I could have easily(relatively speaking) gotten my EE degree, but I didn't enjoy that type of work as much as I do designing software. You only live once; so do something you enjoy rather than something that is going to pay you more money.

      • Ignore the grandparent and mod the parent of this post up. Don't go to school for something that will be in demand in three or four years (presumably when you graduate). Things can change faster than you can complete schooling. Decide what you *want* to do for a living (within reason) and get educated for that. Certain areas of the world are in demand for almost every profession. If you're willing to relocate, you'll find a job.

        I really liked working with computers and ended up taking a generic CS course (there were't a lot of "specialty" degrees in the early 90s. I spent most of my time in school learning system and network administration. Now I spend more of my time doing software development because I enjoy it a lot more. You'll enjoy life and your job a lot more if you enjoy the work. Salary is not everything. On more than one occasion I've moved to lower paying jobs because the work would be more enjoyable.

      • Re:There are 3 things to consider in a degree... (Score:4, Funny)

        by thuh Freak ( 725126 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:11PM (#12376597) Homepage
        but what i really love is rolling around in gobs of cash!
      • I have two degrees in physics, but was always deeply involved in the computer end of physics, both in designing and building research lab computational equipment and in writing software for it.

        After I earned my M.S. the department head congratulated us and told us we only had 9 more years of work until our Ph.D. I left school and went to work for a major telecommunications corporation in a software engineering role, and I've never looked back. Doesn't matter that I don't have a C.S. degree; it's what you

    • You want fries with that? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:56PM (#12376389)
      Please.

      Software guys get to run the register. Hardware guys are stuck on the fryer.

    • Please, I have a Political Science undergrad and a Master's Degree in Public Administration. I've been working for a very large IT firm for seven years in their ERP practice. They just asked me to become a hardware architect, they'll send me to classes over the next two years to get the necessary certifications.

      In other words, the undergrad degree doesn't matter. Get a grad degree, THEN pick up the skill through your work experience.

      • People used to be huge on degrees in the 70, 80, early 90s. None of that matters in today's tech industry where certifcation is all you need for a contract position. And there are FAR MORE contracting positions than fulltime available.

        • In all honesty, I hated getting my Master's degree. It was a painful experience (because I thought it was a waste of money). In the end, I am glad I did it.

          Why? Because if all you want is a contracting position, where you do exactly what your manager tells you to do, then get a certificate of some sort. If you want to be involved in the decision making process, then, at the minimum, you need an undergrad degree. If you want to be targeted for PHB positions early on in your career, get a graduate degre

    • Re:There are 3 things to consider in a degree... (Score:5, Informative)

      by CatGrep ( 707480 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:21PM (#12376702)
      They [hardware engineers] never get laid off

      You're obviously not living in the real world.

      Lots of hardware engineers were laid off during the current downturn which started in 2001. And many have had a hard time finding work during this period.

      The thing to consider with hardware engineering is that if you have been laid off it's much more difficult to keep up your skills up to date than it would be with software design. Hardware design tools tend to be proprietary (especially the ones used in industry) and they cost as much as a home mortgage, so you're not going to be going out and buying some EDA package so you can keep up your skillset. Sure there are some open source HDL simulators like Icarus and GHDL, but most hiring managers in hardware design will probably not have heard of them or they consider them toys (a false perception, of course, but hiring managers don't know this ;-). And when it comes to logic synthesis tools there's not a lot much out there that's open source.

      If you get laid off from a software job you can easily go and start (or work on an existing) open source project to keep your skills up to date since there are lots of highly regarded open source (free) tools and languages out there to use.

      • Re:There are 3 things to consider in a degree... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by demachina ( 71715 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @07:57PM (#12378849)
        I'm willing to bet that unless you are willing to work in the defense industry designing hardware is not going to be a great career in the U.S. Designing CPU's and GPU's might last in the U.S. somewhat longer since they are still somewhat entrenched in the U.S. but designing just about everything else electronic has already moved to Asia, Taiwan in particular and now China, and is unlikely to return.

        God only knows how much software development will survive in the U.S. There will probably be some bastions like Google, Microsoft and Adobe in the U.S. and there will be lots of grinding out in house custom stuff for big corporations. The latter pays bills but otherwise isn't exactly satisfying. Places like Microsoft, Cisco and SUN are already off shoring a lot of work to China and India.

        Unfortunately there are a lot of factors working against the U.S. staying a leader in software development, cost of living, healthcare and labor is to high compared to India, China and Eastern Europe, the education system in the U.S. is generally bad, Americans are not for the most part disciplined or hungry any more, they've had it to easy to long like most affluent empires headed for decline. The U.S. has maintained a lot of its vitality by importing talent from around the world but since 9/11 that talent is increasingly not coming to the U.S. or being turned away by an out of control visa bureaucracy(though if you are an indigent worker and want to swim the Rio Grande the border is wide open.

        I wager a lot of bright, well educated people from around the world probably don't want to move to a country dominated by right wingers, intolerants and Christian fundamentalists with a blood thirsty penchant for wars. There also used to be no economic opportunity in places like India and China so the brightest flocked to the U.S. where the money way. But most smart people in those places know there is more economic opportunity in China and India than the U.S. these days. A lot of China expats have been flocking home to China to cash on the gold rush there as long as they can stand the government.

        As a footnote I would add a personal opinion, software development is probably better than working in a factory, and I love doing it for fun, but fact is unless you are working on a good team on software you love and you have a stake in its success its actually not that great a career, especially now that the get rich quick for doing nothing opportunities are drying up. There is a real tendency to 80 hour a week death marches for which you are getting paid for 40, insane schedules, slogging through bug queues, and watching insane marketing and management types do insane things. And of course there is the top rank of executives who loot all the profits for the multimillion dollar compensation packages and lay people off at the drop of a hat, often to compensate for their grievous management mistakes.

        So in summary if you want to work in the U.S. business administration is hands down the best career choice if you have what it takes to climb your way to the top, so hone your golf game and barroom and B.S. skills and climb, climb, climb. Might be a good idea to join the Young Republicans, the right church, the best frat and if you have some spare cash start donating to Republican candidates. They politicians that control a huge percentage of the U.S. economy really do look at that FEC database of campaign contributions and reward those who give them money (reference all the cell phone people recently bounced from a communication panel because they bet on the wrong horse).

        If you have what it takes to cross the threshold in to upper management you will do very well whether you have a clue or not. If you are bright and have a better idea like the founders of Google you can get rich to but it is way harder than just B.S.ing your way in to the ranks of the executive elite.
      • Ok, this is not accurate, at least any more. Please do not perpetuate this myth. I work in this industry and switch between embedded systems design, analog design, and FPGA implementations (VHDL).

        Yes, Cadence and it's mega-stupid tools are expensive. This is targeted at projects where you've got lots of resources and people, often looking at a ASIC as the end project - not a FPGA.

        It is extremely easy for you to stay on top of your design skills for a VERY limited investment in home tools. You can beg, bor
    • I've been doing firmnware development for the last 20 years and have this to say. I studied CompSc, but should have studied Electrical Engineering.

      The reason for this is simple: It is much easier to study computer science as a second degree at home since you need no specail tools etc. Use the chance at University to have access to the instruments etc that you don't have at home.

      But, once you have a BSEE, spend some time getting a CompSc degree (perhaps after hours correspondence) or spend some time getting

    • Re:There are 3 things to consider in a degree... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by RailGunner ( 554645 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:28PM (#12376766) Journal
      Or, take a Computer Science and Engineering degree like I did. Currently, I develop software, but if I needed to go into hardware I have the educational background that I could do it if necessary.

      Plus, knowing how the underlying hardware works will allow you to write much more efficient code.

  • What's in demand? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by alecks ( 473298 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:47PM (#12376266) Homepage
    What if you tried doing what you enjoy and have a passion for, rather than what's in demand. That's why IT so saturated right now.

    • Re:What's in demand? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:54PM (#12376367)
      MOD PARENT UP.

      If you're getting a degree to make money, you're going to suck ass and there are enough people in the market right now who suck ass because of this attitude.

      And believe me, as the current market in the US seems to indicate, if you suck ass, it doesn't matter what degree you had, you will have a hard time finding a job eventually. Do what you love, and you will kick ass and take names and regardless of how thin the market gets, you will find yourself in demand. That's the key. Anyone who tells you otherwise hasn't figured life out yet.

      • Re:What's in demand? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by rw2 ( 17419 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:08PM (#12376555) Homepage
        That's total bullshit. I know lots of people who do good work in IT as a day job and are happy to be computer free the rest of their lives. They do IT as a job because music, art, flying model planes, camping or whatever their passion really is doesn't pay.

        Now that said, *if* someone has no ability to work on things which aren't interesting to them then they will suck at IT. But there are literally millions of people doing jobs they don't particularly enjoy with a high degree of skill becuase they can make a living at those jobs and fund their real passion.

        • Re:What's in demand? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Darth_Burrito ( 227272 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @06:38PM (#12378163)
          That's total bullshit.

          Bah, maybe it's more like 10% bullshit. I've known plenty of disinterested 9-5ers that sucked, but I'm not sure I've ever met someone with a passion for IT that sucked at it relative to their peers. It's not a hard rule that you can't be good at something you don't like, but generally speaking, the more you like something, the more likely it is you'll be good at it.

          Sure, a high wage might make you like doing something more. And this might motivate you to perform better. But the person who already likes what they are doing requires less motivation and less pay. Similarly, a person who likes what they are doing is going to be more motivated given the same pay.

          Basically, in field like computer whatever that requires perpetual learning, the person who spends time learning in their spare time is going to be much better than the person who never turns on their computer at home. The only way this will not be true is if the disinterested person is, in some way, a lot smarter than the other person.
      • The industry doesn't need more people. It does need more smart people. That doesn't mean college educated people because college just makes you marketable. Finish college, but don't enter the industry unless you are smart.

    • Forget Demand, do what you love best (Score:5, Insightful)

      by serutan ( 259622 ) <snoopdoug@@@geekazon...com> on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:56PM (#12376398) Homepage
      Do what makes you happiest and you'll get a job. Don't worry about it. The employment winds may blow back and forth to some extent, but you'll be fine. If you wish you had done one thing but you did the other because of where you thought the economy was going, you'll always regret it.

    • Re:What's in demand? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:59PM (#12376422)
      Actualy, pick the second thing that you have a passion for rather than THE thing that you have a passion for so that when you go home at night you will have something that you enjoy, as opposed to something that you USED to enjoy but are too burnt out of to want to bother...
    • What if you tried doing what you enjoy and have a passion for, rather than what's in demand.

      In another message I answered the question as posed, but the parent post is what I should have written.

      I have over thirty years in electronics, both hardware and software, and it's taught me this: Do what you love and you'll find a way to make a living. Do what other people want from you and you not only will end up hating it, you'll end up hating yourself and broke besides.

  • Wrong criteria (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:48PM (#12376289)
    You shouldn't be basing your study and career on what might or might not be most in demand in 3 years time. You should just do what you enjoy.

  • Change majors or double major (Score:5, Informative)

    by cdrudge ( 68377 ) * on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:48PM (#12376290) Homepage
    there have been many articles on Slashdot about the lack of people enrolling in IT courses in post-secondary, as well as the need for more people in these areas. Being a Computer Science student, this is great news for me, meaning I may be in demand in the future.
    Hahaha. That's funny. Demand for more people in these areas. In case you haven't heard the news, your future job is being outsourced to India. The dotcom bubble popped a few years back. IT is still in need, but not in the same way that it was once. What companies are looking for is people who know how to use a computer, not necessarily people who know computer.

    Seriouly, do yourself and your career a favor. Double major in another field, such as business, marketing, etc. It will probably pay off more then a degree in CS. I know I wish I would have had someone tell me that before I graduated a few years ago. Unless that is you want to stay in the academic or research field.
    • Get a BS in CS and an MBA. Not too difficult to figure out that you will then be a desirable candidate on paper.
    • I could see some programming jobs being outsourced to India, especially programming that revolves around the web, but you you really think that all software design will be outsourced? What about the people who develop software to run robotics? What about the people who work on operating systems, 3D engines, software to run jets or military systems or other things like this. While there are less jobs of this type than say web developer, it seems to me that every position that requires and engineer to deve
      • I could see some programming jobs being outsourced to India, especially programming that revolves around the web, but you you really think that all software design will be outsourced?

        No. I started a subsidiary a couple years ago to answer outsourcing needs of my clients and now am seeing that trend flatten and some projects brought back home. People grow weary quickly of the problems which ten thousand miles and eight time zones bring into the picture.

        Will there continue to be outsourcing? Yup.

        Will i

      • I could see some programming jobs being outsourced to India, especially programming that revolves around the web, but you you really think that all software design will be outsourced? What about the people who develop software to run robotics? What about the people who work on operating systems, 3D engines, software to run jets or military systems or other things like this. While there are less jobs of this type than say web developer, it seems to me that every position that requires and engineer to devel

      • Maybe I am just naive, but it doesn't seem to me that CS majors will be unable to find a position in the future.
        I wasn't meaning that ALL jobs were getting outsourced. Pure CS majors are in less demand these days, at least in my parts. In higher demand are more business related degrees with CS classes/minors/double majors.

    • This is probably the best advice ever. Listen to the dude and get with the program. Err. Get with the programs.

      As a recent CS grad myself, I am thinking of getting an MBA. More jobs, better resumes, nicer pay. What else do you want?


    • Actually the drop in enrolments has been so large that a shortage in four years or so is almost inevitable, outsourcing or not...

  • A Different Guise. (Score:5, Informative)

    by FalconZero ( 607567 ) * <FalconZero@Gmai[ ]om ['l.c' in gap]> on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:49PM (#12376296)
    Maybe its because my degree was software engineering, but it seems to me that the level of skill you develop in IT/Software during software focused degree, if transferred to IT/Hardware comes under the guise of a different degree : electronics. (or microelectronics or control systems etc...).

    I think its important to differentiate between :
    • Saying IT/Hardware and meaning 'Hey, I can buy components and build a computer'
      (which IMO) is something you can easily do without a degree - How many 'PC World' backroom employees do you think have one?
    • Saying IT/Hardware and meaning 'electronics/pcb design/embedded systems', which like I've already pointed out is more 'electronics' than CS.
    <Before someone states the obvious /> Yes, I know there are crossover areas, like emedded systems/robitics, but he did say CS from an X persepcive, not X with CS in mind.

  • A koan... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:49PM (#12376299)
    > "Hardware or Software Major?"

    A koan: If your answer isn't "yes", the answer is "neither". If your answer is "yes", the answer is "mu".

  • Easy. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by StevenHenderson ( 806391 ) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [nosrednehevets]> on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:49PM (#12376303)
    Hardware. Tougher to outsource, more jobs out there that pay well. Unless you are prepared to accept a second-tier IT job, or unless you are REALLY good with software, I'd recommend an EE or ECE degree. It got me a job with a major corporation, and I didn't go to a big school at all.

    • Re:Easy. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by dattaway ( 3088 )
      Not only will a hardware job pay higher, it gives a person more freedom to play with the software side. Most hardware needs software, so anything extra beyond the job classification is the added touch.

      And if the hardware job fails, there's always another industrial job that uses electricity. So many electrical career opportunities at home that requires help. This is the stuff that can't be exported over TCP/IP.

    • Re:Easy. (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Zordak ( 123132 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:48PM (#12376943) Homepage Journal
      If you want to be really tough to outsource, get a security clearance. Classified work doesn't go to India. Plus, if you get to work on something like ICBMs or satellites, you can honestly say "Why yes, I am a rocket scientist."

      Another advantage to EE instead of CS is if you decide that you want to hit law school so you can make a really obscene salary as a patent attorney, you will be able to take the UPTO patent bar. Many CS majors are not eligible to sit for the patent bar (your CS degree has to be ABET accredited, and many -- or even most -- aren't).

  • The obvious.... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Zeebs ( 577100 )
    Given how technology tends to develop I'd say that your best bet to make sure you'll be right on the bleeding edge, or at least not left behind in your future career, go into porn.

  • Classes to take (Score:5, Funny)

    by pcraven ( 191172 ) <[moc.ylimafnevarc] [ta] [luap]> on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:51PM (#12376319) Homepage
    ...it generally says that the IT industry is loosing the new graduates

    I'd recommend you take an English course instead.

  • Honestly... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Otter ( 3800 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:51PM (#12376326) Journal
    As I move into my second year, I would like to know, are hardware people going to be far more in demand than the software people, or would software still be a better choice than a hardware-centred degree?

    Pick the one you enjoy, and the one for which you have an aptitude. And hedge your bets by not overspecializing.

    If you wanted to be an astronaut or a professional athlete or an opera singer, serious calculation of your prospects would be in order, but there will be a demand for both hardware and software for the rest of your lifetime, and no one can tell you which will be a better bet. People who listened to "Get into ___ because of the looming shortage of ___!" always seem to regret it.

    • Re:Honestly... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by shrinkwrap ( 160744 )
      As someone who wrote his first FORTRAN program in 1968, I'd say your decision only matters in the short term, because all the careers that are *interesting* haven't been invented yet!

      In 1968, there was no C, definitely no C++ or C#. There was no worldwide web, not even a glimmer of an internet. Hardware consisted of an IBM or Burroughs mainframe hidden in the bowels of the administration building, and you used a card punch to 'write' your programs, which you then submitted to the 'high priestesses' aka d

  • My experience (Score:3, Insightful)

    by binaryDigit ( 557647 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:52PM (#12376339)
    Let me state this, I've either worked with or have seen (usually via resume) a large number of hardware guys who have moved over to software. I know of exactly 0 who have done the reverse. FWIW I've been in the industry for over 20 years. Of course, "software" and "hardware" are very vague terms. I wouldn't for instance recommend focusing too much on web only development, as these folks are plentiful and generally (I said generally) not paid as well. And for hardware, are you talking about being a typical corp IT guy, slinging pc's together and plugging in network cables, or are you talking about someone who designs IC's. Both hardware, but vastly different.

    Bottom line is that there will always be demand for both, right now (and for the near term), software seems to be the safer/"easier" bet. Most important, is to pick your choice in either domain wisely.
    • I've either worked with or have seen (usually via resume) a large number of hardware guys who have moved over to software. I know of exactly 0 who have done the reverse. FWIW I've been in the industry for over 20 years.

      Well, here's the exception. BSCS degree, but I'm pushing polygons down at the silicon level and doing timing analyses at the count-the-picoseconds-on-your-toes level.

      Then again, I tend to think of SPICE as a programming language that compiles to silicon. Working on my fourth decade in

  • Which one do you like? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ibpooks ( 127372 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:53PM (#12376353) Homepage

    Do whichever one you like more. If you try to choose a major based on the future job market, you will be forever chasing a carrot on a string. Take a course or two from each discipline and decide which one feels better and which one you understand more intuitively.

  • Hopefully your college can help to confuse you further. Example: my degree is in Software Engineering, I took mostly hardware-based classes and ended up with studies that would be proficient for network engineering.

    In a nutshell, do what you want.

    Course list [usm.edu] of my degree. Yes, I'm from Mississippi so that must be the problem. HURRRRR.

  • Computers ain't everything (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fm6 ( 162816 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @03:57PM (#12376403) Homepage Journal
    ...the IT industry is loosing the new graduates...
    I usually sneer at Slashdot Language Nazis, but with your little error (losing, not loosing), you inadvertantly make an important point: there's more to your education than picking up specific job skills. Whether you study hardware or software, any technology you learn about will be obsolete in a decade or so. Other stuff will last you all your life: language skills (yeah, grammar and spelling rules are arbitrary and stupid, but knowing them helps you sound like less of a pissant), communication skills, general knowledge of history and culture. Don't forget critical thinking skills, which you can acquire by studying a lot of subjects like history and philosophy that don't seem to teach anything you need to know.

    Most of all, you need to learn about learning. 'Cause a techie can't afford to ever stop doing that.

  • most CS degrees are theoretical. They are the "art" of computer science. Hardware programs at theory based schools usually run under the electronics (EET) programs. You might want to search local schools (in state) that have EET programs, as some specialize in hardware design. Some schools, like my current one [shameless_plug] OIT [oit.edu] [/shameless_plug] have an actual hardware program, CSET (Computer Systems Engineering Technology) that is applied, not theoretical. They also offer software, and dual (hardwa
  • enjoy a few years studying philosophy, history and the arts. In the end you'll come out feeling more satisfied with your well-being. Why do I say that, well I was just reading this headline,

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States should remove visa limits to allow more skilled foreign citizens to work at U.S. companies if it wants to remain a leader in technology, Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates said on Wednesday.

    Microsoft is having a hard time finding skilled workers within the United States

  • Ideally, this choice should be mostly shaped by what you'd like to be doing with your life. Do you want to use computers to provide power and connectivity to people? Do you want to use computers to allow your creative insticts to create something new to the world, or at least to your employers? Do you want to be be working with lots of interesting equipment as opposed to hitting a keyboard all day?

    The reason I didn't choose to become an engineer of some sort instead of computer science is because the pr
  • Well actually, do what you like best. If you cant decide, then it probably wouldn't be too hard to dual major. You may want to try working with your advisor and the dean. They may be able to come up with a "computer engineering" program if they don't have one already.

    Luckily my college [wright.edu] offers a dual CS/CEG program, in which I'm enrolled. If your school does something similar, you may be able to dual major/dual degree with only an extra quarter or 2 of work.

  • Ratios (Score:2, Insightful)

    by tearmeapart ( 674637 )
    A BSD kernel programmer and I agreed on this ratio quite a few years back:

    1 Hardcore hardware guy (designing CPUs and other advanced stuff)
    for every
    10 Softcore hardware guys (designing the small stuff)
    for every
    10 Hardcore kernel/driver guys (your Linus')
    for every
    100 Hardcore application guys (doing X, GNOME, KDE, Windows, etc)
    for every
    1000 Softcore application guys (doing OpenOffice, MS Office, PhotoShop, GIMP, etc.)
    for every
    10000 little shareware application guys (doing BitTorrent, those little games like

  • If you really want to have a future in computers.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by nganju ( 821034 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:02PM (#12376470)

    You should major in Hindi.

  • I took a 50/50 degree: basically we did the BEng EE course and the BEng CS course (4 years to do both - a Bachelor's in Britain is normally 3 years) and came out with an undergrad MEng. After living through the crash out here in CA I am very glad that I did. There is a big shortage of people who can think across the hardware/software boundary, can see things from a "systems" perspective, and can roll up their sleeves and do whatever's required when the work needs to be done: be it writing C, designing gate-

  • 24 years ago and haven't looked back. In 24 years, I am looking back on a total of 1 month of unemployment in all those years. Granted, I did specialize after a few years in Database administration, and I'm still on big iron.

    Oh, and I did go back for an MBA later.

    But pick what you like.
  • The more you can bridge two disciplines, the more valuable you become. Lots of people know software and lots of people know hardware, comparatively fewer know how to make the two work together.

    From my experience, software-only people don't understand the nonlinearities and non-idealized behavior of hardware and thus create software that breaks in the real world. Hardware-only people lack an understanding of the powerful functionality of software and don't create designs that take full advantage of what

  • No crystal balls (Score:3, Insightful)

    by overshoot ( 39700 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:06PM (#12376521)
    As I move into my second year, I would like to know, are hardware people going to be far more in demand than the software people, or would software still be a better choice than a hardware-centred degree?

    If I had the answer to that question, I wouldn't be worrying so much about where the money will come from for my own kids' college.

    Background: I have a BSCS, an extra 40+ hours of physics and EE, and I'm currently working as a circuit design engineer. Go figure.

    As for advice, I'll give you the same advice my own kids got from the faculties at three different universities in CS, EE, and Physics: You can never get too much maths or physics. From my own experience of more than 30 years in electronics, the basics are what last. Anything else you learn as needed.

    So, FWIW, one of the boys is finishing his junior year as a dual-major EE and physics (with a maths minor), the other is wrapping up sophomore year as CS and physics. Make of all that what you will.

  • I went to an American college to get a CS degree. I do not know how CS degrees are structured in Canada, but here in the home of the War On Drugs, CS degrees tend to be conceptual. I found that even the practical stuff I did (programming) was completely different than the stuff I did in my professional career.

    That being said, the difference between studying hardware and software does not generally apply to university -- it applies to trade school. In a university setting, people who want to get into h

  • Assuming you are a genius... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Minna Kirai ( 624281 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:07PM (#12376540)
    Assuming you are a genius, or at least highly intelligent, then you can teach yourself software CS alone in your home for just $300 worth of textbooks.

    To properly learn hardware CE, on the other hand, requires both bulky, expensive lab equipment (or emulators and CAD that are merely expensive), and more importantly, mentoring from someone already in the field. Because of the Free Software movement, there are many professional-level software projects whose development process and changing source code are open for public view, so you can watch and learn whenever you like.

    Hands-on experience with hardware design can't be plucked off the internet for free like that, so it's a better way to invest your tuition penny.
  • Most of what people do in "IT" doesn't require a college degree at all, but real world experience and specialization.

    I'd consider being a Solaris admin, a CCIE, or even a helpdesk person an IT job. Obviously at vastly different expertise and salary levels.

    But fundamentally, university schooling won't help you with any of them. To be a good UNIX admin you just have to do it. I can't say what's required to be a CCIE as i am not one nor have i been one. To do helpdesk work you must be a computer junkie
  • Industry always needs more Software engineers than hardware engineers. Also, software engineers can probably live in more different geographical areas than hardware folks (most hardware design is done in 3 or 4 geographical areas in the US - Silicon Valley being the largest center for hardware development) so that's something to keep in mind.

    That said, there aren't as many hardware engineers as there are software engineers so the talent pool is smaller to match the smaller job pool. Hardware jobs can ten
  • What is in demand is people who can do both technical skills well and have a clue re business. It is very difficult to learn both programming and system administration and have a life unless you get it while in school.

    Once you are in the door tweaking the servers or networks of a small business, they frequently think you can program web sites and do modifications to their accounting systems. With business administration, you can also sell & support accounting packages which keep the calls coming.

    3:
  • Moving banner to the right. Very distracting. Please remove.
  • Well, in 2004, when I graduated at Waikato University http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/ [waikato.ac.nz] (which do offer hardware majors) the amount of people that graduated with a hardware major per year could be counted on one hand. They also had no trouble getting jobs (and getting good pay - humbug!)

    Software majors (like myself) experienced the opposite; plenty of graduates, but trouble finding a job.

    There seems to have been a shift over the last few years from people choosing hardware majors to people choosing software ma

  • I'll give you the advice I gave others (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hangtime ( 19526 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:10PM (#12376577) Homepage
    I just taught a class back at my college last week. I recommended to everyone
    A. Do what you love. -That doesn't seem to be much of a problem anymore. I graduated in 2001 and only the ones who are hard-core seem to be left.

    B. Make sure you know the business. Yes, many jobs are being outsourced but those jobs that are being outsourced belong to very large conglomerates who can afford to spend six months to spec out an application and then turn it over to a Bangalore firm. This is not the case for SME (Small Medium Enterprises). These firms are not set up for this type of development and you can make a good living working for and consulting for these firms.

    Good Luck and do what you love i.e. if you like Philosophy and your Comp Sci go over and get your Philosophy degree.
  • I've made a living over the past 30 years doing: vms/unix/linux kernel hacking, chip logic design, computer architecture, driver design, compiler writing, embedded systems programming, network protocol engineering ....

    It's great, each job I get to do something different and interesting, I get paid really well, I have skills that span enough disciplines that I can do things that most other people can't ..

    On the other hand - long term I found VLSI got boring - it's mostly just programming at a different

  • I'm a Computer Engineering major at the University of Hartford, this is the best major out there as I see it when it comes to the IT industry. I'm a second year student, currently in 2 circuit design labs, I've taken physics 1 and 2, I need a rather minimal amount of boring theory/math classes in comparison to the other Engineering majors. I only have to go up to Differential Equations. It's a pretty sweet deal. Though I'll likely tack on Linear Algebra, because it's generally a useful one to have.

    In addit
  • There are two ways to look at hardware:
    1. Pieces that you put together to make a computer
    2. Pieces that you design to make a computer

    The former requires at most a two-year degree, and then only if you pad it with English and History and other crap. Realistically, if you want to do computer hardware at this level, get a one-year vocational certificate. Somehow I doubt that this is what you're looking for.

    The other aspect of hardware is its design and creation. At this point you're looking at something more
  • I've often seen the biggest differences in people in the corresponding majors to be:
    EE Analytical people.
    CS Intellectual people

    With plenty of mixture on both sides, of course.

    It seems in hardware, you are a bit more math and physics oriented as you are dealing with physical systems that deal with reality. You need a much more rigid approach to your thinking and really, your goals are different. You want to design solid electrical systems that take cost into account more and once again are bound by physi
  • Seriously, what were you thinking applying to some computer program at WLU? The university of waterloo is just a few blocks away from Laurier, and is much better for tech subjects. Waterloo even placed in the 29th ACM Intl. Programming Contest [slashdot.org] and I don't know if Laurier even entered.
  • Did you hack hardware all through grade school? Did you start programming at age 10? Or did you decide to study something having to do with computers after a value-judgement analysis while in high school? You need to do what you love, or find out what you are naturally good at and either learn to love that or apply it to what you love.

    Personally, I found hardware kind of interesting in college, but I understood that because I'd been programming since age 11, I would be a much better software person than

  • The future? (Score:3, Funny)

    by anonymous_wombat ( 532191 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:22PM (#12376705)
    ...but would like to know in which direction the future is moving before I make any choices.

    I am thinking about being a stockbroker, and knowing what will happen in the future would also benefit my career.

  • Wrong Field. Wrong Direction. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by $criptah ( 467422 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @04:52PM (#12376985) Homepage

    If you want to make a good and stable living, CS is definitely a wrong field to be in. Our inside sales guys make more money that seasoned developers. That's a fact. Therefore, shoot for something with business background or get your degree and then an MBA later on.

    Hardware and software is a stupid debate, especially when it comes to money. When a hardware shop in my area went down, guys with hardware backgrounds were dime a dozen and nobody wanted them. When times were good, they were paid fairly well. Catching the market is hard. As somebody pointed out, if all of us knew what was going to happen, nobody would lose money on stocks. What you want to do is the following: learn something that you like and then tag a some other degree on top of that in order to be more marketable. Currently, I am looking at an MBA or a degree in economics. At least I will be able to do something on a business side if things flop with CS.

    Also, whatever you do, make sure that you're close to your customers. Jobs that involve face-to-face customer interaction or high-end client support (not talking about "My Dell is broken!") will tend to be here as long as businesses exist. The unemployment rate for sales oriented professionals remains fairly low compared to fields such as engineering. Then it is all up to you.

  • Bottom Line (Score:3, Informative)

    by CEHT ( 164909 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @05:08PM (#12377127) Homepage
    In a few years when you are a new grad and in the job market, how you handle problem solving is probably more important than being in a program that concentrate in hardware or software within computer science. You can be a Linux system administrator or application developer with either types of background, but if you cannot handle yourself and to solve problems, it doesn't really matter what your background is... you will just get fired! In other words, doing more math and programming is the best way to go. And to make sure you enjoy doing it! No matter in assembly in CP316 [sauron.wlu.ca], CP460, CP466 or CP468. You got to do good in problem solving as well as in coding!

  • bad question (Score:5, Insightful)

    by uncadonna ( 85026 ) <mtobisNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday April 28, 2005 @05:18PM (#12377234) Homepage Journal
    I dislike the question intensely. Let me give the boomer answer, since nobody else has.

    Study what you are interested in. Do what will make you happy. If money is the thing that will make you happy pick a third option like sales or bank management or plastic surgery.

    If you are making a strategy in quest of money by being an IT professional for some foolish reason, you will likely be abused, and likely disappointed too.

    If you don't love some aspect of computing for itself, you will probably not succeed in it. Certainly there are easier and more reliable ways to make more money.

    Figure out what you can do for the world and set out to do it. If you're smart enough to get into a CS or EE program you are smart enough to avoid starving while doing what you want to do. If that's CS or EE or boatbuilding or macrame or whatever, just do that, and figure out how to get paid for it as you go.

    If you don't know what you like, drop out for a year or two and figure it out.

    A hundred years of prosperity and we get slave mentality questions like this. Dammit, in the standards of human history you'll be a rich bastard if you manage to get a job at the Quickie Mart.

    Relax, do the right thing, pull your weight in the world, and stop being so hung up on money.

    Life is the cake, money is just icing, and far too many people end up with too much icing and not enough cake.

  • Traditional majors are CS and EE (Score:3, Insightful)

    by geekee ( 591277 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @05:27PM (#12377300)
    Traditionally, you either major in CS, and study abstract principles of computing, or you major in elctrical engineering, where you learn semiconductors, circuits, and have electives that can be applied to digital technology if you wish. Some schools offer hybrids of the two, but there is no standardized degree that I am aware of. Anyway, school is for learning fundamentals, not the latest IEEE spec or how to program in Java.

  • I *did* a hardware-focussed degree (Score:4, Interesting)

    by cowbutt ( 21077 ) on Thursday April 28, 2005 @06:04PM (#12377784) Journal
    I studied CS (Systems Architecture) from 1992-1995. At the time I entered, the x86 PC was popular, but not dominant - there were M68K Amigas, Macs, STs and Suns. There were SGI and DEC MIPS machines. Sun, Fujitsu and Solborne were pushing SPARC. The DEC Alpha was the hotrod processor. And the British-designed Transputer CPU looked like an interesting idea for massively parallel systems.

    By the time I came out, the writing was pretty much on the wall, and these days, you just throw x86 boxes at the problem (as long as heat or power aren't a concern, anyway).

    Don't get me wrong; knowing how computers work from the metal up is very handy and quite fulfilling (in the same ways that Physics is), but unless you're good enough (and want) to work for Intel, AMD, nVidia or some other major designer, architecture (as typified by novel designs) seems dead.

    On the upside, embedded still seems OK, and should only improve - especially in the low-power portable segment. Also, electronics guys seem to have real problems getting their heads around software at times, so that might be another avenue to explore.

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