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Star Wars Prequels Media Movies

7-Year Old Prequel Fan On ANH 937

Random BedHead Ed writes "It is a subject often pondered by Star Wars fans: what is it like to watch the six films in order with a fresh perspective? From the Desk of Ghent, On one of the Star Wars blog site's many journals, answers this question in a recent blog entry about the writer's 7-year old son, who recently watched A New Hope for the very first time. Some enlightening quotes: 'Look... Obi-Wan is pretending he doesn't know R2-D2,' and 'Why don't those ships need Hyperspace rings?' It's a pity the end of Empire has been spoiled."
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7-Year Old Prequel Fan On ANH

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  • by Ubergrendle ( 531719 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @08:44PM (#12785957) Journal
    You will never have the opportunity to relive the moment of truth at the end of Empire, or learn about the twins in Return of the Jedi. It will all be a foregone conclusion. Robbing a child of this opportunity is a heinous crime, given how much I enjoyed the original series given its original presentation.
  • by mark-t ( 151149 ) <> on Friday June 10, 2005 @08:48PM (#12785979) Journal
    There's nothing wrong with the prequels.

    But I realized back when Ep2 came out that it wasn't a good idea to watch the movies in chronological order.

    The prequels are interesting in the sense that they fill in some gaps and the backstory, but I don't recommend watching them without seeing eps 4,5, & 6 first.

  • Hilarious (Score:4, Insightful)

    by alan_dershowitz ( 586542 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @08:51PM (#12785991)
    A seven year old is more sophisticated watching his movies than George Lucas could muster while actually engaged in writing them. But then, some of us suspected as much, having been exposed to Howard the Duck.
  • Suitability (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Alphanos ( 596595 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @08:52PM (#12786002)
    Am I the only one who thinks that the Star Wars movies aren't really something that a 7-year-old should be seeing? This isn't some crack about the movies' quality, I'm just thinking that some of the scenes in these movies are very dark and scary for a 7-year-old.
  • Re:Ah ... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fishbowl ( 7759 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @08:53PM (#12786004)
    "Why are red leader and gold leader the leaders? They don't know what they're doing..."

    Point men... Expendable. Call them "heros" or "leaders" or whatever it takes to get them to fly in front, or detect land mines, or draw out the enemy fire, or whatever suicidal thing you want them to do.
  • spoiled? no. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MORTAR_COMBAT! ( 589963 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @08:54PM (#12786008)
    It's a pity the end of Empire has been spoiled.

    Now instead of surprise it will be irony, as the audience knows what Luke does not. The audience also is left ahead of time wondering why Obi-Wan lies to Luke about his father.

    Spoiled? Perhaps, in a way. But also brings up other things which are potentially interesting.
  • Bad Acting (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ndansmith ( 582590 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @08:59PM (#12786038)
    I have noticed that it is en vogue to bash the acting of Star Wars episodes I-III. However, after watching III, I watched IV-VI, and discovered that bad acting is something which plagues the entire series.

    Also of note is how much Lucas' writing and directing style have changed. Episode IV is very slow paced compared to III. There is only one light-sabre battle, and it consists of Obi-Wan and Darth walking around calmly while being careful not to break a sweat. Contrast that to III, which has tons of sabre (and other) battles, and it quite fast paced.

  • Re:yeah (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS- ( 624050 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:08PM (#12786079) Journal
    Except all rebel fighters have them because they cannot count on capital ships, which the empire pretty much monopolizes. The miniaturized hyperdrive is what gave the rebellion a fighting chance to topple the empire.
  • by Vengie ( 533896 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:13PM (#12786115)
    c.f. the chronicles of narnia. Anyone who reads the Magician's Nephew first ought to be shot.
  • by Jugalator ( 259273 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:14PM (#12786119) Journal
    Robbing a child of this opportunity is a heinous crime

    "Robbing"? "Heinous crime"? Are you talking about taking away a child's school education or taking away some minor plot twists in a sci-fi movie?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:18PM (#12786140)
    You need to get to out more. You'll find that attitude taken by many Muslim, Jewish, left wing christian nutjobs, and new age liberal, and athiest parents. Probably other groups I haven't had direct experience with as well.

    Why am I saying anything? I was raised by left wing christian nutjobs and had friends whose parents filled one of the above categories. Being an over protective parent has little to do with being a right wing christian, and more to do with being a fscking control freak. And control freaks are found in every religious and non-religious group.
  • Re:Suitability (Score:1, Insightful)

    by kg4czo ( 516374 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:19PM (#12786147)
    I think we shield our children way too much here in the US. A 7 year-old can watch a movie with a graphic part in it and not have problems with it, but some people don't realize this and try to "protect them for their own good." I say let them watch the movie if they really want to. It'll be less violent than turning on the news....
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:24PM (#12786173)
    You do realized that he filmed Star Wars first, and then made the other movies?

    I find it odd how people try to resolve plot holes with fiction or twisted justification, as if this will somehow make order in the universe. the only people that may have to give this sort of matter any sort of concern is an official comic book writer or someone else publishing something under the Star Wars license. Allow me to explain the real reason: Obi Wan isn't real, and that scene was either somthing Lucas didn't think of or didn't care about.

    Oh, and this is nice:

    Slow Down Cowboy!

    Slashdot requires you to wait 2 minutes between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.

    It's been 6 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment

    Combined with that fucktarded script-test bullshit, slashdot has achieved a new level of shitiness. Course this will get my post modded down as flamebait or off-topic, but what else am I supposed to do while I sit here waiting for this magical counter to finish it's run? Cram my thumb up my ass?

    Let's try again ...
  • by dotslashdot ( 694478 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:28PM (#12786191)
    There are lots of R2 units. Maybe he didn't remember this particular one.
  • by biffnix ( 174407 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:28PM (#12786196) Homepage Journal
    Well, that's sort of the definition of redemption. If you're talking standard Christian doctrine, then redemption is available to ALL sinners, regardless of the depths of their apostasy. If you're a Christian, then your sin is forgiven by God, through his Son. All you have to do is accept redemption sincerely, and it is given to you.

    Now, in Star Wars, I guess we can imagine that Luke is willing to sacrifice his life for his dad's. By accepting that act of gracious sacrifice, Darth was redeemed. Not quite a perfect fit with standard Christian stories, but the metaphor remains intact. Someone who is faithful (Luke has faith in his father's goodness despite much evidence to the contrary) reaches out to someone who doesn't deserve it, and offers redemption. It is accepted, and the person is redeemed!

    If King David can be redeemed through faith, then so can Darth Vader...

    Maybe we're just a bit too jaded with a vengeful mentality these days to accept the idea that even the worst human is worthy of redemption.

    Joe G.
    Bishop, CA
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:29PM (#12786209)
    that's just silly. they could have used the name "dark father" and it might still have come as a surprise that he was Luke's father. "father" could just be a title.
  • by AHumbleOpinion ( 546848 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:30PM (#12786210) Homepage
    So Anakin not only brought balance to the force, the light side was seriously overrepresented, but also the fans, the light side was seriously overrated. ;-)
  • by AHumbleOpinion ( 546848 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:40PM (#12786261) Homepage
    Yes but keep in mind that Darth turned to the dark side to save his wife, and then turned from the dark side to save his son. See, Darth's all about love. Or that his only loyalty is family and he'll betray anyone. ;-)
  • My order... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MagicDude ( 727944 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:40PM (#12786262)
    I always felt that when showing the movies to someone who's never seen the movies at all and doesn't know about Luke's father (though most people do know about Vader, since that line is so engrained in pop culture), the proper order should be 4-5-1-2-3-6. Thus you get the story of Darth Vader who's this magic "Force" weilding goon for the empire, and of Luke, this farm boy from a desert planet who also learns of the force from Crazy Old Obi-Wan (Who tells him that Vader killed his father), and then rescues the pricess, joins the rebellion, and kicks ass. Then he goes to learn more of the force from Crazy Green Yoda, but leaves too early to finish his training, gets his butt kicked, and then learns that Vader is his father. Now, start in Episode 1 where you learn how Aniken became a Jedi, how the empire began, and how Aniken became Vader. Now, a small problem with this is that you learn that Leia is Luke's sister right at the end of 3, but that's not so big a deal since Yoda hints at there being another in 5, and you find out about Leia pretty early in 6 anyway. Then after seeing the prequills, you watch ROTJ to see how everything resolves and how Luke redeems Vader and defeats the empire.
  • If one thing I found was that I was more bound to side with the Empire simply after seeing how inept the Republic truly was.

    The new perspective gained from watching the first three puts the whole series in a new light.The Empire really became what it was simply because the Republic and Jedi had become so egocentric and inept they had to be replaced to move forward.

    The same can be said for real-life historical precedents: the diseased Roman Republic-turned-Empire before the literal barbarians at the gate, the decadent Russian czardom before the Russian Revolution, the power-seizing military coup d'état of Cambodia before Khmer Rouge, the enfeebled Reichstag before the Third Rei--ehrm, mustn't invoke Godwin's law...

    However, as history also shows above, what would replace the corrupt institutions were not always shining beacons themselves ....

    The Rebel Alliance are the counter-revolutionaries, with everything good and bad that it implies about them and the original "revolutionaries" they fought.
  • by NeoOokami ( 528323 ) <> on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:53PM (#12786320) Homepage
    I now have a new reason to seek immortality!
  • by YesIAmAScript ( 886271 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:57PM (#12786342)
    Yep, Eps IV-VI had bad acting and dialogue.

    They succeded better for two reasons:
    1. The directors worked around the bad dialogue a bit better.
    2. Alec Guiness.
    3. By far the biggest, Harrison Ford. Without Harrison Ford there would have been no episode V, let alone VI,I,II,III. He made the character work, he made his dialogue work. He knew the character better than Lucus. He ad-libbed the "I know" response to Leia's "I Love You".

    The other actors and their dialogue varied. Hamill was a great farm boy, a mediocre Jedi. Fisher was terrible all around. But Harrison Ford glued it together and made it work.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 10, 2005 @09:57PM (#12786343)
    No, but you ended up as one of those people who refer to "wussy kids", which is itself something I hope my children never end up as. ;)

    On a serious note, the concern for my child would be nightmares. Maybe YOU didn't have a problem, but my little brother couldn't watch anything remotely scary without having nightmares. Me on the otherhand, loved scary movies. The first one to give me a nightmare was Alien, and the last one to give me a nightmare was Pet Cemetary(I was 17, LOL, but it didn't stop me from watching it again). The point is, kids are different. You can't treat them all the same.
  • Re:the death star (Score:3, Insightful)

    by inkswamp ( 233692 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @10:03PM (#12786370)
    Reconsider your assumptions:

    * How do you know it took the whole 18 years to build?

    * How do you know that the second Death Star wasn't already under construction prior to the destruction of the first?

    * Why wouldn't it be quicker to build something if you've already been through the process once before (as if we haven't witnessed that with computers in our own lifetimes)?

    * They DID consider small fighters a problem which is why they were building an improved Death Star in secret so it wouldn't be attacked before it was completed. That was a main plot point in Jedi, that the rebels had discovered what the Empire was doing.

  • by Kesh ( 65890 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @10:06PM (#12786393)
    Marx called. He'd like to have his book back. ;)

    Seriously though, the most effective form of government is a dictatorship. Any government based on freedom is bound to be (at least somewhat) inept and inefficient. That's why the Republic looks slow, inept and complicated; while the Empire looks efficient, directed and simple.

    So, which do you prefer? :)
  • I am rather amazed that this is the sort of take-away view that people might have of the series overall. To me, this is missing the entire point Lucas is making.

    Look, I'm not saying that all members of the Galactic Empire's fighting forces were evil; in fact, I'm of the opinion that many thought they were on the side of right, attempting to restore order, etc. That does not mean, however, that the Empire is the side to side with.

    I also do not believe it is correct to brand the Jedi, or other members of the Republic, as inept. Yes, the Jedi were blind to the manipulations going on around them due, supposedly, to their arrogance and, yes, supporters of the Republic way of doing things put too much faith in democracy. These sorts of weaknesses are time-honored in storytelling of this type.

    That said, I hardly consider the Emperor's assumption of power to be a move in the forward direction. That would be akin to saying that Nazi Germany was a good step forward because the trains ran on time. Remember, we are led to believe in Ep. 4, 5, and 6 that the Empire is pretty naughty in implementing it's plans--one need look no further than the destruction of Alderaan for evidence of this. Not the sort of environment I'd look forward to living in.

    Yes, the prequels, especially Ep. 3, do a decent job of filling in the backstory, but I think the real lessons of the series come from 4, 5, and 6: fighting oppression, facing your enemy, and redemption.

    Anyway, that's my view.
  • by ivan256 ( 17499 ) * on Friday June 10, 2005 @10:11PM (#12786423)
    That's exactly the way to do it... All too often things get re-arranged from the order in which the creator presented them into the plot's chronological order.

    A recent upsetting discovery of mine was realizing that children these days are given the C.S. Lewis Chronicles of Narnia with "The Magician's Nephew" as book one instead of last. Not only does it spoil the mystery of things in Narnia for the rest of the series, but it spoils the wonder and pure fan service done by reading "The Magician's Nephew" last. Who ever decided to change the order needs to be shot.
  • by zippthorne ( 748122 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @10:14PM (#12786441) Journal
    After the second movie, I was hoping the "separatists" would evolve into the rebellion as they figured out what was going on. This would add extra [dramatic stuff] in that the emperor sowed the seeds of his own defeat by creating them in the first place.

    I was especially disappointed when they turned out to STILL be working for sideous in the third movie despite the fact that they were double-crossed in the first movie and knew he was a dark jedi in charge of the senate in the second film.
  • Re:Storm Troopers? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 4me2no ( 459579 ) < minus pi> on Friday June 10, 2005 @10:21PM (#12786474)
    ooh... oooh! I've got a better theory...

    Due to blowing out the original budget on the enormous expense of the Jango Fett clones, they had to settle for a cheaper bounty hunter for the next batch.

    Of the bounty hunters, the cheapest of the cheap was a young Greedo who, as we know, is incapable of even shooting a stationary Han Solo from point blank range.

    This also goes along way to explaining why a bunch of two foot tall furballs can defeat an entire battalion of storm troopers.
  • Re:That seals it (Score:3, Insightful)

    by graveyhead ( 210996 ) <{fletch} {at} {}> on Friday June 10, 2005 @10:24PM (#12786488)
    You know what I find especially lame about the now infamous "NOOOOOOOO!!!" scene? It was delivered by James Earl Jones, not Hayden Christensen. James of course was responsible for making Darth Vader such a badass in Ep. 4-6. The fact that a distingushed [] professional as him could have delivered such a horrid stinky scene is highly dissapointing.

    Oh well, personally I'll just continue to enjoy those 3 great original movies and ignore the latest 3 stinkers.
  • Re:Bad Acting (Score:3, Insightful)

    by horza ( 87255 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @10:36PM (#12786543) Homepage
    Also of note is how much Lucas' writing and directing style have changed. Episode IV is very slow paced compared to III. There is only one light-sabre battle, and it consists of Obi-Wan and Darth walking around calmly while being careful not to break a sweat. Contrast that to III, which has tons of sabre (and other) battles, and it quite fast paced.

    I know, with all the spewing lava backgrounds etc. I felt it was just missing a few car chases, with a few rolling and exploding, to complete the effect.

    I and II were awful, but III was nowhere near the original trilogy. The acting was wooden, the blurred light-sabre action more like an MTV video than a life or death fight. No tension. No comparison.

  • Re:yeah (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SamThePondScum ( 136366 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @10:41PM (#12786565)
    You can't do hit and run if you can't run, right? :)

    The hyperdrive seems more important for getting the hell out of Dodge than getting to Dodge in the first place.

    Further, the blog presumes/suggests that you should watch the movies as Episode I thru VI. IMO, the proper order of watching these films is:

    1. IV
    2. V
    3. VI
    4. I
    5. II
    6. III
    7. IV
    8. V
    9. VI

    It has often been said that the true story of Star Wars is the rise, fall, and redemption of Darth Vader. This is certaintly true--from a certain point of view--but you can't even guess at that until at least the end of The Empire Strikes Back, when The Big Secret is revealed, and Darth Vadar becomes more than just a Very Bad Guy.

    Instead, by watching the movies in the above order, 1-3 works on the obvious level: the rise of Luke Skywalker, farm boy, to Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight and hero of the New Republic, and true carrier of Skywalker honor. Then, watching 4-6 (i.e. episodes I-III), you see the almost-rise of A. Skywalker, who dramatically fails to live up to everyone's hopes, and instead becomes Darth Vadar, Dark Lord of the Sith. Then, you can watch 7-9 (i.e. episodes IV - VI) again, with the further understanding of just who this Darth Vadar guy is, what he's all about, and just how far he has fallen, for the full the Fall and Redemption story.

    Further, the above order preserves all the major surprises and plot twists. The only downside, IMO, is that the plot holes are more obvious, even discounting that you watch 3 of the movies twice (and therefor are more likely to notice them).
  • Re:Suitability (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kylemonger ( 686302 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @10:53PM (#12786636)
    I think I speak for the rest of slashdot when I say that you are alone.

    Oh, no you don't! That scene at the end with Anakin being roasted alive would have given me nightmares for a month at age 7. If a 7-year old can watch something like that without flinching then maybe TPTB have a point about kids' exposure to violence.

  • by kfg ( 145172 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @11:07PM (#12786713)
    This sound like awfully sophisticated thoughts for a 7 year old.

    If you had expressed this about me when I was 7 I would have requested that you desist from patronizing me.

    Just because most kids are not particularly intelligent does not mean there are not particularly intelligent kids.

    Or perhaps this one has simply not been force fed "age appropriate" fare all his life. That sort of thing can fuck up many a young mind.

    In any case my experience as an adult is that most kids can act and speak with a good deal more intelligence to people who treat them as peers instead of kids then is commonly held. They are quite capable social chameleons.

  • Re:That seals it (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Gulthek ( 12570 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @11:15PM (#12786761) Homepage Journal
    Yeah, Lucas really knows how to deaden the hell out of his talented actors' performances. He's a genius that way.
  • Re:yeah (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jcenters ( 570494 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @11:29PM (#12786842) Homepage
    The prophesy never said he was to end the Sith. That was only how the Jedi interpreted it.

    The Chosen One was to be born of the force, in order to balance the force.

    At the end of Episode III, Anakin does this. When all is said and done, there are two Jedi (Yoda and Obi-Wan) and two Sith (Palpatine and Vader).

    So, he DID balance the force and fulfilled the prophesy, it's just that the Jedi were too full of themselves to realize what "balance" means.
  • Re:yeah (Score:3, Insightful)

    by wwest4 ( 183559 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @11:30PM (#12786847)
    What'll really bake your noodle is if you think about how Anakin was able to finally make the correct choice after a long string of missed opportunities. It was by the same avenue that got him there: attachment to others, and the inability to let something go (or fry, in Luke's case). The same tendency that tempts him to the dark side provides him a path back to redemption. I think Lucas framed it as Vader selflessly sacrificing himself to save Luke... but even while Luke does embody what's left of the light side and choosing him over the Emperor ultimately saves the galaxy, the choice isn't really textbook altruism by any stretch.

    The idea re: Sith apprentices is that the Sith can't afford to indoctrinate too many powerful force users into the fabulous world of back-stabbing, manipulation, and galactic domination. They desire a monopoly on power. So they stick to a safe arrangement of one boss and one supplicant (who essentially serves as the slave in an active-active redundant system of e-vil). In that way, and only in that way, is the fear of losing power under control. You keep your apprentice busy, keep one eye on him, and the other on everything else. Or something like that.
  • Re:That seals it (Score:4, Insightful)

    by LurkerXXX ( 667952 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @11:31PM (#12786857)
    I hate to tell you, but I don't think James Earl Jones wrote the script or had much input into what his lines would be. He delivered the scene the way Lucas wrote it. Put the blame where it belongs. On Lucas.
  • Re:yeah (Score:2, Insightful)

    by SamThePondScum ( 136366 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @11:37PM (#12786883)
    Yar, I was just hitting some high points.

    For instance, Annie brings balance to the force by killing all the Jedi, except 1 Master (Yoda) and 1 apprentice (Obi Wan) for the Light side, and 1 Master (the Emperor) and 1 apprentice (Darth Vadar) for the Dark side. If you buy that--that the two sides of the Force are balanced in some numerical sense--then note further that Yoda barely lost to the Emperor and Obi Wan barely beat Darth Vadar. Further, after Yoda dies, Luke is able to beat Darth Vadar... (but not the Emperor, so maybe I'm full of it ;) ).
  • by msaulters ( 130992 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @11:46PM (#12786949) Homepage
    I'm 31, and I almost covered MY eyes during that scene. C'mon, are we THAT desensitized??? It was AWFUL and heartbreaking. It was ONE thing that Lucas got right, and it should not be the kind of thing that children are taught to laugh at, and there WERE children in the theater laughing at that scene when I watched it.

    And I AM serious.
  • Re:yeah (Score:4, Insightful)

    by wwest4 ( 183559 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @11:48PM (#12786962)
    The Sith represent an imbalance. Power and control aren't supposed to be in one hand... that disturbs the natural equilibrium represented by the whole omnipresent Force thing. Lucas likened it to a cancer that eats away at the host and eventually killing it. Through I, II, and III the dark side is chipping away at that equilibrium.

    It's destined to end, per the prophesy, but it is up to Anakin how he gets there. It's actually a lot like Tolkien's Silmarillion. The world is created through the music of Illuvatar, and Melkor's desire to create and control represent discord... a cacophony against the song of Illuvatar. Melkor is defeated temporarily, but he is destined to return and be ultimately defeated (like the Sith, who re-emerge after a long time underground).
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 11, 2005 @12:04AM (#12787052)
    That's close to the order I worked out, but not quite. I'd show them in this order:

    IV - where we all began
    I and II - Get to know Luke's Dad, but don't reveal that he's Darth Vader
    V - The original surprise is preserved, and magnified because we know Anakin as a character.
    III - Ok, now that you've gotten the big reveal from Empire, it's time to watch Sith and see how it all went down.
    VI - See Anakin's redemption while his fall is still fresh in your mind.
  • oh shut up (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 11, 2005 @12:11AM (#12787096)
    you know grandparent was exaggerating, there's no need to polish your moral superiority badge.
  • Re:That seals it (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Cappy Red ( 576737 ) <miketoon@y[ ] ['aho' in gap]> on Saturday June 11, 2005 @12:15AM (#12787115)
    I think the big problem with the "NOOOOO!" scene is the difference in Vaders. In the original trilogy, Vader was a cold, calculating, determined, evil badass. In the prequel trilogy, Vader/Anakin is a whiny, annoying, petulent ass. There is no "bad" involved in his prequel ass of any kind other than the old, "not good," variety.

    We don't see him become what he was in the original trilogy, we're left to assume that the intervening years actually made him an interesting character.

    That "NOOOOOO!" bit worked with the prequel Anakin, but not with the original Vader. Whereas Lucas might have intended that disconnect to be striking, I think it came off more off-putting and irritating than anything else.
  • by Doctor Faustus ( 127273 ) <Slashdot@William ... d.Org minus poet> on Saturday June 11, 2005 @12:17AM (#12787122) Homepage
    The part that was hard for her was the slaughter of the Jedi. She cried

    Hell, so did I. My seven year old was fine.
  • by Rydia ( 556444 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @12:26AM (#12787173)
    I must admit my fiance and I got a little teary-eyed during the Jedi pogrom. It was very sad and very well-done, from both thematic and cinematic views.

    Cody and Obi-Wan was a good example of that (though moreso if you've seen Clone Wars). Here you have a Jedi, their leader, the person upon whose skill their success lied directly, getting shot down by someone who we are to assume he had become friends with. Just like that. And then they cut to big-forehead-guy (whatever his name is), who was actually LEADING A CHARGE into a droid unit, waving wildly to egg them on, except WE know that he's trapped.

    So, these people are out fighting a war they don't want to fight, performing superbly, and then out of the blue, get shot in the back by their allies. I can't think of a more sad betrayal than that.
  • by KMitchell ( 223623 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @12:37AM (#12787216)
    While watching ROTS, as Obi-Wan picks up Anakin's lighsaber--leaving him to burn to death--all I could think of was the ANH quote "your father wanted you to have it when you were old enough" and damn was that that a stretch. Makes the "betrayed and murdered your father" seem pretty reasonble by comparison...
  • Re:That seals it (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mabhatter654 ( 561290 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @12:38AM (#12787222)
    frankly, I'd like to have seen more badass things in the dark suit as vader to show he was EVIL. But I thought the scene came off OK... after all, the point of the scene was that the emporer had a total lock on anakin. The only thing he had to live for he took away himself! HE destroyed his entire himself.. from this point on he's not just the Empororer's henchmen, but a "trusted" friend who is totally commited to only him.
  • by Nate4D ( 813246 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @12:41AM (#12787229) Homepage Journal
    This one's not too hard, actually.

    Let me start off by pointing out that Lucas' series is chock full of plotholes, and I solve them only because it's a fun mental exercise.

    Now then.

    Vader no longer has biological legs or arms in episodes IV-VI. Instead, he has robotic prosthetic limbs, and not very good ones compared to Luke's hand (and what's left of the organic parts is in pretty bad shape). He's also ~40 years old. His abilities with the Force are nowhere near as powerful as before his death [], according to Lucas.

    So, his lightsaber fighting isn't going to be very good anymore.

    Obi-wan, now, he's explainable too. I don't remember the real numbers, but I'd assume he's around 60ish. While he's been training for a long time in the desert, he can't have had a remotely challenging lightsaber fight in the past twenty years, with not even potential sparring partners... Put those two factors together, and you can see where he might have lost the touch.

    Luke is the easiest. Sure, he's strong with the Force, but he has no idea how the Jedi used to fight with lightsabers, and since Obi-wan dies so soon after they meet, he has no one to teach him the advanced technique. When he goes to train with Yoda, he doesn't learn it, presumably because Yoda had such a handful just getting this overaged pupil to use the Force at all, and to concentrate properly.
  • by Brandybuck ( 704397 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @12:46AM (#12787256) Homepage Journal
    Nonsense. It's just a coincidence. Lucas doesn't speak Afrikaans.

    Look at all the sith names. They're trival variations of something dark or sinister. Darth Maul (a heavy blunt weapon). Darth Sidius (insidious). Darth Tyranus (tryant).

    Darth Vader is a trivial variation on "Dark Invader".
  • by Brandybuck ( 704397 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @01:02AM (#12787329) Homepage Journal
    Did you REALLY believe Lucas when he told you he had six (or nine, he keeps changing his mind) episodes all plotted out before he ever started on the first movie? Here's a clue for you: he lied!

    The first time Star Wars was shown in a theater, it did NOT say it was episode IV. It did NOT say "A New Hope." It was just plain "Star Wars". But by the time of the second theater run, Lucas had already started revising the story. The Luke/Biggs conversation on Tatooine was gone, never more to be seen. Sigh.

    To be fair, it's certain that Lucas had some idea of the characters' backgrounds. Every writer does! He may even have sketched out a brief history. And he may have had some ideas for sequels if the first movie proved popular.

    But to pretend that he had all six (nine) planned out in advance is absurd. Some of the earlier scripts are so different from what ended up in the first movie it's extremely probable he just pulled stuff out of his ass as he went along. When a little kid says "Look... Obi-Wan is pretending he doesn't know R2-D2", then we know the truth that the emperor has no clothes.
  • by jumpingfred ( 244629 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @01:27AM (#12787413)
    That is a good theory. But like a lot of literay critism it assumes a certain amount of master planning done by the author that I think is not done but projected on the author to make the stories seem more important.
  • by DroopyStonx ( 683090 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @01:57AM (#12787534)
    Eh... Palpatine being the Emperor was not really a surprise considering they're played by the SAME ACTOR.

    Emperor Palpatine, Senator Palpatine? I mean... really...
  • Re:Bad Acting (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Whoozit ( 162620 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @02:03AM (#12787549) Homepage
    Episode IV slower than III? Did you see the same movies I did?

    I admit the 'action' scenes in IV didn't have quite the 'wow' factor with people jumping around and stuff blowing up, but it had something much more important -- characters and a plot you actually CARED about.

    Whether it was more charisma from the acting or better direction, IV's plotline went from scene to scene revealing a bit of the story each time without any filler. Characters were developed. We learned of the dangers of the galaxy and depravations of an empire along with Luke.

    In III, there were far too many effects without enough substance to make the audience care.

    Take the opening scene of III -- a technically impressive space battle, but one that is totally uninspiring. It is introduced with some text, but what ships are whose? Why the hell is there a batttle being fought? Whose ships are whose? It's so chaotic it's hard to relate to.

    Contrast that with ANH's opening scene -- instantly you know the score. Big bad empire chasing little ship. Youre in suspense. You are sucked in...

    The whole movie's like that. III spends way too much time dicking around with unimportant plot points, trying (but failing) to paint a convincing picture of Anakin's slow descent to the dark side...
  • by Spoing ( 152917 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @02:47AM (#12787677) Homepage
    Seriously though, the most effective form of government is a dictatorship. Any government based on freedom is bound to be (at least somewhat) inept and inefficient. That's why the Republic looks slow, inept and complicated; while the Empire looks efficient, directed and simple.

    The government under a dictatorship will be efficient. The governed will not be. That's why dictatorships don't thrive outside of the dictator's and dictator's associates personal estates.

    (Looked for a reference in the Tao/Dao Te Ching for governments being brutal when efficient, so inefficent governments are to be encouraged...but couldn't find it.)

  • by h4rm0ny ( 722443 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @03:12AM (#12787736) Journal

    Seriously though, the most effective form of government is a dictatorship. Any government based on freedom is bound to be (at least somewhat) inept and inefficient.

    The most effective form of government is that which needs to govern least. Think of the effort and resources that must go into maintaining control and compelling people's obediance. A nation of the willing is so much more powerful. But your statement of inefficiency has a presumptution of what the purpose of a nation is. From the point of view of the majority it is to live a happy and fulfilled life. A dictatorship most certainly is not the most efficient way of achieving this (assuming it were possible). If you're presumption is that industrial productivity, GDP, etc. are the purpose of a nation (which is what I'm inferrring), then I think that you are still wrong. The US is only recently becoming a non-free society and for most of its history has been stupendously successful.

    That's why the Republic looks slow, inept and complicated; while the Empire looks efficient, directed and simple.

    No, that's because it's fiction produced by someone who shares your worldview. :)
  • by rolofft ( 256054 ) <rolofft@yahoo. c o m> on Saturday June 11, 2005 @03:48AM (#12787811)
    If your contention were correct, Idi Amin would have lead Uganda to world domination while Margaret Thatcher tumbled the UK. Weren't the lessons of the 20th century [] to the contrary? Is it efficient for the Poliburo to have party members honeycombed through the whole economy, reporting every time someone neglects their duty? Would you take the Commissariat for Food over Wendy's? And doesn't hindsight (The Gipper v. Gorby) show whom to choose in a battle for military might? The Cathedral may work adequately for a campus in Redmond, but The Bazaar is the only realistic model to run a whole nation by.
  • by ezeri ( 513659 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @05:59AM (#12788074)
    But just think of how many Jim, Jack, Jane and Jills there are today. The droids in Star Wars are treated more like living beings than anything else, so it would make sence that they would have names that were easy to use, rather than longer serial numbers. After all, a moisture farmer on tatooine isn't going to care if there are millions of R2-D2 droids in the gallaxy, just so long as his droid knows to respond when it hears it.
  • by Zathras26 ( 763537 ) <> on Saturday June 11, 2005 @09:43AM (#12788656)

    This applies to the prequels as well, but much more so to the original trilogy. Often, in light of all the action and special effects and so on, people overlook some of the more subtle symbolism that's present in Star Wars. One of the big areas that does this for me is the way light and color are used. Some examples:

    In ANH, Obi-Wan is telling Luke about "the old days". At one point, he says, "Oh, yes... I was once a Jedi, like your father." He then leans back, revealing a brightly lit window -- very symbolic.

    Han Solo's garb. His shirt is white, the vest he wears over it is black, just like his personality: on the outside, he appears to be a real creep, but on the inside, he does have noble qualities.

    Colors in general: Darth Vader and the Imperial officers all wear either black or muted shades of gray; Leia and the rebels wear white or lighter colors. (Although Lucas did mess this up by dressing the storm troopers in white.)

    One of my favorites: throughout ROTJ, Luke, formerly dressed all in white, is now dressed entirely in black, symbolic of his upcoming temptation to turn to the dark side. He stays dressed entirely in black, until he fully and openly refuses to turn to the dark side. Shortly after he does this and the emperor starts frying him, a small light-gray panel opens on the front of his tunic, symbolizing his choice to stay with the good side. This panel stays open for the remainder of the film.

    Good filmmaking elements that are very subtle and often overlooked, as I said, in all of the "sound and fury".

  • by DrWho520 ( 655973 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @10:06AM (#12788724) Journal
    Vader realizes his hopes of taking over as the new Emperor aren't going to happen because Luke just isn't good enough to pull it off, and he cracks.

    When did he realize this, before or after Luke removed his hand and placed him in the same prone position as Anakin placed Dooku? Sure, the Emperor took him down fairly quickly, but that was after Luke threw his Lightsaber away and presented himself defenseless to the Emperor. Well, not defenseless. He had the most powerful weapon in the universe not a yard away from him in the form of his father.

    I came away with this. Anakin never had control of his life and never had personal responsibility. He went from a slave on Tatooine to Obi-Wan's padawan. He was always able to use his talent to get him out of the tough spots, but he never learned that his raw talent needed to be tempered by skill and focus. He lost to Dooku in their first battle because he leaned on talent and power. In their second battle, he tells Dooku he has grown powerful not how he has grown more skillfull.

    Once he turns to the dark side, he returns to being a slave and he still relys on his power as a crutch. He is Cerebus on a giant chain guarding the doors to the Empire. Anakin fights Obi-wan the same way he fought Dooku. Unless you believe in luck, a clearly less powerful but more skilled warrior won that battle. Anakin is like any young adult. He does not think, he believe's himself to be invincible and he suffers from a monumental case of hubris.

    Finally, in that throne room aboard the Deathstar, he makes his first conscious, responsible decision. He looks back on his life and realizes where he went wrong. He remembers the goading by Palaptine that drove him to destroy Dooku. He sees his son at much the same age, who grew up much the same way and had much less training than himself face the same situation and make the same choice. He finally realizes true strength, because his son shows it to him. Why does he return from the dark side of the force? Because he makes the right decision and makes the ultimate sacrifice for that decision. In his final moments, he does save Padme in the form of their son.

    Maybe my rose colored glasses need adjusting, but I think that is closer to what the Lucas was thinking. Just my two cents, take it or flush it.
  • Re:Proper Order (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Koiu Lpoi ( 632570 ) <{moc.liamg} {ta} {iopluiok}> on Saturday June 11, 2005 @10:23AM (#12788790)
    Personally, I think the best is IV V VI.
  • Re:yeah (Score:3, Insightful)

    by alienmole ( 15522 ) on Saturday June 11, 2005 @10:35AM (#12788831)
    Kill me.

    Happy to oblige. People with no imagination hardly deserve to live, anyway.

    As you draw your last breath, ponder this: why did you choose to read a discussion about Star Wars, if you're not interested in it?

"My sense of purpose is gone! I have no idea who I AM!" "Oh, my God... You've.. You've turned him into a DEMOCRAT!" -- Doonesbury