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Books Media Microsoft

Microsoft Books and Certifications? 74

Posted by Cliff from the if-you-must-MSC-anything dept.
ozTravman asks: "I have been doing my Microsoft MCSE exams, so far I have completed 70-270 and 79-290 and I am about to start preparing for 70-291 'Implementing, Managing, and Maintaining a Microsoft Windows Server 2003 Network Infrastructure'. I currently work as a Systems Engineer and for the previous two tests I simply read the Microsoft Press books related to the test. However, I found those particular books to be quite useless and found that cramming for the test using Braindumps and practice exams the night before was far more effective and relevant to the test content. I did not even bother finishing the 70-290 book. So what books have other Slashdot readers have used to help them to prepare for these tests?"
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Microsoft Books and Certifications? More

Microsoft Books and Certifications?

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  • Braindumps?!? (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    You realize by using a braindump you are effectively cheating?!?

  • Wow.... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Atlantis-Rising ( 857278 ) on Saturday July 09, 2005 @08:33AM (#13020012) Homepage
    The perfect place to post your question. I do hope you have abestos gloves on!

    • The purpose of taking the exam is to pass it. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mosel-saar-ruwer ( 732341 ) on Saturday July 09, 2005 @09:11AM (#13020122)

      However, I found those particular books to be quite useless and found that cramming for the test using Braindumps and practice exams the night before was far more effective and relevant to the test content. I did not even bother finishing the 70-290 book.

      The purpose of taking the exam is to pass it. Short of outright cheating, it doesn't matter how you pass it, only that you pass it.

      It also doesn't matter whether you retain any of the knowledge afterwards: ALL THAT MATTERS IS THAT YOU RECEIVE THE SHEEPSKIN.*

      I'm with you: Purchase the practice exams, and study backwards from there, i.e. investigate the theory behind only those questions you can't answer correctly a priori.

      *If you are wondering, the purpose of the sheepskin is to help you get your foot in the door, or, if you're already inside, to help in justifying a raise in salary [and maybe a promotion to a more chi-chi sounding job title].

    • Seems a pretty good place for his question to me. After all,
      it seems clear that the majority of /. readers these days are
      Windows users.
  • What is the value of an MSCE?

    One company I worked with displayed them at the front desk...is this the best use of them?

    • Unfortunately, yes, that is the best use for them. Today, to get a job in many places, these worthless certs are required. So why NOT cheat with testing aids? If these things are worthless as skill indicators but still needed to land a PAYING gig, than there is still value in having them.

  • MCSE Silliness (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Cyphertube ( 62291 )

    I'll admit that once upon a time I thought the MCSE was a really cool thing.

    My first clue came really early on, when back in the days of the NT 4.0 exams, I bought the official books for server administration. Then I was working on installing a server for a company and realised that these books didn't cover even half the stuff I came across.

    Nowadays, I use Linux at home, and have Windows 2000 at work. My boss apparently has some MCSE training, and yet I seem to know how to handle basic Windows stuff far b

    • At one point the MCSE became a joke (around 2000). The youngest person to pass the exam in Pakistan IIRC was an 11 year old kid, which appeared in the newspapers.

      Later on, MCSE became tougher to deal with this, but the exam still aims for the largest market.

      Now reading a book has never worked for me for computer certs. Just buy several cheap used computers, build a network and read braindumps. Works much better.
    • I got Solaris certification a couple of years ago because I was going to be out of a job in a few months and hoped the cert would help me stand out a little. To be honest, most of it was stuff I knew already and the rest, well, I've forgotten it.

      Certs don't make a good admin any better, but it should show you have the basics/intermediates covered which is enough to show you're not just bluffing.

  • If these "certifications" really meant that you were competent to do suchandsuch, then there would be no cramming needed or possible. You can't "cram" to be an eye surgeon. You can't "cram" to be a helicopter pilot. Bascially, this just proves what I suspected all along, these certifications aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Or, more precicely, they are indeed worth the paper they are printed on because that is what you are actually paying for, not learning a skill..

    But, hey, they cost money
    • You can't "cram" to be a helicopter pilot.

      "The Matrix" lied?!? Gasp!
    • "Here I am with a brain the size of a planet and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper. Call that job satisfaction? I don't. " Marvin the robot

      Actually Eye surgeons do cram, especially in pre-med. They're supposed to learn all about general anatomy and things that don't pertain to eye surgery. The "certification nonsense" is a problem in bureacracies everywhere. Oh well. Life, don't talk to me about life...

    • Bascially, this just proves what I suspected all along, these certifications aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Or, more precicely, they are indeed worth the paper they are printed on because that is what you are actually paying for, not learning a skill..

      You've got it with the second one. Like my B.A. in Philosophy, my CCNA just got me into the "Second look" pile at my new job. Everything after that was actual knowledge and winning personality. Oh, and staggering humility.

      Sad as that is,

  • Why would an Engineer get an MCSE? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, 2005 @09:08AM (#13020107)
    I currently work as a Systems Engineer

    If you have a degree in Engineering, why are you pursuing an MCSE?

    Seriously, as an Engineer I despise it when the term is abused. The AMA and ABA would never allow Microsoft et alia to churn out "Microsoft Certified Systems Doctors" or "C# Lawyers" so why does the IEEE/SAE/etc. sit on their hands when the word "Engineer" is abused?

    • why does the IEEE/SAE/etc. sit on their hands when the word "Engineer" is abused?

      Wow, wouldn't THAT shake the foundations of computings... Don't forget, a healthy percentage of the "engineers" that created the entire industry are college dropouts. I suspect at least a few on the IEEE board are not technically qualified (acedemically, I am talking) to judge others...
    • and why does Amtrak let you people get away with it?
    • Wonder what your feelings are on Systems/Network Engineering as a (my) field?
    • I made my current employer change my job title from "Systems Engineer" to "Systems Administrator" after taking the position.

      I don't get paid nearly enough to be called an engineer, let alone warrant the implied liabilities of being labeled an engineer. :-)
    • So I take it that you have a degree in some type of Engineering? I'm 3/4 of the way through a degree in Network Engineering, so I suppose if I take a position as a Network or Systems Engineer after I graduate I would be doing the world a huge injustice?

      An engineer by definition is someone who plans, builds or designs. Or, you can even go as far as saying that it is someone who operates an engine.

      See your examples were just asinine. Doctor, has about 20 different definitions most relating to medicine

      • I won't speak for everyone with or pursuing a degree in engineering*, but I would venture to say that most of us would consider an MCSE to be below us. Sorry, but that's how it is. I'm not going to waste my time studying for something only to sit for an exam along with high school dropouts. MCSEs are so watered down, they're not worth having. That and well, I don't have any desire to administer a Windows system. The same thing can be applied to other certs, however. CCNAs are not as bad, but getting there.
        • To some extent I agree with you. I highly respect indiviuals with engineering degrees because I am aware of the grueling courses such as Calc and Linear Algebra as I took these in high school while enrolled in a advanced Mathematics and Science Center. However, for a person who is pursuing a position as an administrator (or whatever title society deems correct) that wants a career in the networking field, its extremely difficult to do so without some type of certification.

          The counter to your argument re

          • The funny thing is, while I disagree with some finer points of yours, I agree with you overall. It is very difficult to find real networking programs and not just programs that teach networking on a votech level. As for your points about engineers, I work in networking and several people I work with are engineers (mostly mechanical). Engineering education is about learning to solve problems, not learning a specific skillset.

            I have a pretty simple rule. If the place where I'm applying requires a CCNA or sim
            • :) You're right. It seems as though there are more and more votech schools that are just churning out paper MCSE, A+, etc students that have no real hands on experience, have no other abilities other than PC repair and yet are placed in these IT roles that they aren't qualified for.

              I remember when I first started out I had an ISP tech support job. I had finished my CCNA track (4 semesters of school, actual in class, on real routers schooling) and the best I could do was help desk. I tried to get a job

  • The actual value of certifications (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gseidman ( 97 ) <(gss+sdot) (at) (anthropohedron.net)> on Saturday July 09, 2005 @09:47AM (#13020254)

    Yeah, certifications mean nothing to people who know anything about the craft of software engineering. That right there tells you why you'd bother getting them. I've just started with a consulting company, and they require their developers to get four certifications a year (and give a bonus for each one). It isn't because the certifications make the developers better, but because it makes them more marketable to potential clients who know neither jack nor shit about software. The only criteria those potential clients have to judge a consulting company on are 1) case studies of previous projects, and 2) arbitrary measures of skill like "90% of our developers hold MCSE certifications."

    Forget for the moment that you know anything about software development. Forget that you give a damn about the differences between C#, Java, C, and Perl. Forget that you actually comprehend why an object-oriented programming paradigm benefits certain kinds of software projects. You're just a guy at some company who has a business or even liberal arts degree, who understands just enough about computers to expect email to be sent and received by Outlook, and who has been tasked with replacing/upgrading some mission-critical software system by the end of the fiscal year. How do you judge who should do the work? You know all the computers at work run Microsoft [sic]. You are told by these consulting companies who are bidding on your project that the M in MCSE stands for Microsoft. You figure that's got to be good, so the company with the most MCSE thud factor sounds the best, especially if their bid is near the lowest.

    That's how business is conducted in the real world. This also applies to hiring developers internally. I refer you to Paul Graham's essay [paulgraham.com] on how it takes a good hacker to know a good hacker. For those unfortunate companies who do not have good hackers in their employ to judge the quality of potential developer employees/contractors, the certifications are the next best thing (however sad that may be).

    I don't have any certifications at the moment, but I expect to have an MCSE within a year or so. I need to know the material so I can do my job, and that will come by actually doing it. I also need to know the material well enough to pass the tests, and for that I recommend hitting the library. I'll be damned if I'm going to buy books for this crap if I can possibly avoid it. My colleagues at this company recommend the Exam Cram series, but I found MCAD/MCSD Self-Paced Training books (from Microsoft Press) at my library, so that's what I'm using.

    • Re:The actual value of certifications (Score:5, Interesting)

      by dubious9 ( 580994 ) on Saturday July 09, 2005 @10:56AM (#13020576) Journal
      Thank you. I agree completely. When I started reading this thread I waded through the OMG WTF! MSCE is teh SUXOR!!. However, in the real world, it may get you in the door. And anything that helps you do that is pretty much worth the effort.

      I'm looking for a job right now and have my resume submitted to several different tech staffing places. Even though I'm not looking for any MS position, they *all* suggested getting an MSCE and RHCE or LPI. Right now I don't have the money to do RHCE, so I'm getting an LPI and MSCE to pad the resume.

      Yes most certs are effectively useless and judged that way by the people who know. Rarely, however, do the people that know tech, bring you in for the first interview. 90% are HR people who only care about keywords and certs. "Oh we need somebody to do JNI, if this Java guy doesn't have it on his resume, then it's out-pile for him", even though, to me listing every obscure java related tech looks pretty rediculous.

      At the suggestion of several people I wrote two different resumes according to who would be reading it. The dumbed-down "at-a-glace" resume for the HR people to get me in the door and the "real" version that doesn't make me look like a tool to the technical people.

      In conclusion, don't knock trying to get an MSCE. Even though it sucks, it will help you. Even though its fairly worthless, it gets you in the door with people that don't know that. Furthermore, if you've gotten it without your employer paying for it it makes you look like you're doing everything you can to stay abreast of things in the indstry.

    • Yeah, certifications mean nothing to people who know anything about the craft of software engineering.

      True, but totally offtopic. Leaving aside the fact that we're talking about IT jobs, not software engineering, the fact remains that certifications are essential to most resumes. You can talk all you want about how people should be evaluated according to their individual merits. (I'd certainly like to be, since my formal credentials suck.) Doesn't change the fact that degrees, certficiations and other

  • MS books seem written for ease of the writers. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Futurepower(R) ( 558542 ) on Saturday July 09, 2005 @10:01AM (#13020312) Homepage

    "... I simply read the Microsoft Press books related to the test. However, I found those particular books to be quite useless..."

    Thank you for saying that. It's good to see the relative uselessness of Microsoft publications be discussed publically.

    When I try to analyze why MS books and web sites are so useless, I come to the conclusion it is because they are written with the philosophy that most important issue is the ease of the writers, not the ease of the readers.

    I suppose that Microsoft writers and editors think "Why try harder?" Anything they publish will be sold to people who don't have enough expertise in the subject of the book to realize that the book is very scattered and that it leaves out important information.

    For example, consider the file encryption in Windows XP, called EFS, Encryping File System. EFS is very poorly documented. The encryption is tied to the user's password in a way that is apparently not documented. EFS depends on being part of a Windows 2003 Server domain in a way that is not clearly documented; if you are using Windows XP on a stand alone computer, there are situations in which you can lose your files forever, even if you have made all the backups suggested in the Microsoft books and web sites.

    (Microsoft Technical Support agrees with what I just said, and provides no help or workarounds.)

    The official Microsoft forums contain complaints of many people who have lost their files due to problems with EFS.

    --
    If your gov't chose killing as policy, expect others to choose the same.
    • Re: Losing your files if you encrypt them on a standalone computer: Ultimately, if you lose the password, the files should be gone forever if there is no other vector to recover them. Any method of recovering them represents a security hole.

      Encryption is a statement that you want only "authorized people" to view the files, where you indicate authorization by possession of a password. If you forget how to tell the computer you're an authorized person, losing the files is a feature, not a bug. If that scenar

      • I was talking about people who did not lose their password or encryption certificates, obviously.

        The problem is that Windows XP makes an additional password, one that is not backed up using any of the tools or documents provided. That automatically generated password is necessary, as well as the user account password, to decrypt the files.

        If a computer is stand-alone, not part of a domain, then backing up everything, reformatting your hard drive, and reloading Windows XP will result in not having acce
        • The problem is that Windows XP makes an additional password, one that is not backed up using any of the tools or documents provided. That automatically generated password is necessary, as well as the user account password, to decrypt the files.

          Rather than making vague claims about what hidden, undocumented passwords are preventing you from using EFS (or recovering your data), why not start reading [microsoft.com]?

          I really have very little sympathy for those who whine about how much EFS sucks. First of all, one must mak

          • Your post amazes me. I said in my grandparent post that Microsoft Technical Support staff agrees with what I've written about EFS. Yet you assume that you know everything about the subject, and cannot possibly have made a mistake.

            It is VERY easy to encrypt a folder: Right-click on a folder. Choose Properties/ Advanced/ Encrypt contents to secure data/.

            It is very difficult to realize that all of Microsoft's technical documentation leaves out an important point. The documents about backup methods don't
            • [A]ll of Microsoft's technical documentation leaves out an important point. The documents about backup methods don't mention that they don't work with stand-alone computers. ... it is not possible to back up all the passwords.

              I submit that not only are you incorrect, the Microsoft technical support agent you spoke to was either misinformed, or you misunderstood him.

              Your statement:

              "If a computer is stand-alone, not part of a domain, then backing up everything, reformatting your hard drive, and reloading

              • Interesting. I've spent many hours trying to make it work, exactly as you say. I have plenty of test computers here, so that's no problem.

                I would like you to try it yourself. If you can do the steps below successfully, then it would be great to work with you to understand how to do it.

                My best understanding is that Windows XP generates an additional password that is not in the certificates, and ties EFS encrypted documents to that generated password and to the user's logon password, as well as the cert
        • TrueCrypt is fantastic. It mounts encrypted volumes as drive letters, though, and has the Windows limitation of not being able to mount at arbitrary locations on arbitrary file systems; if you want your user data to be encrypted, you have to configure everyone's directory to be encrypted.

          Junctions/hard~soft-links may not work (tend to be a PITA under Windows, so I haven't tried with TrueCrypt).


          • Thanks for the information.

            I've been worried about TrueCrypt, because the latest version fixed a lot of what look like serious bugs. I wonder how many other bugs are there.

            Have you had any problems?
            • Nope. Can't say I've stressed it too much, though I trust it enough to use on primary data for a specific project. Backing it up is simple; either copy the data from the mounted drive file or unmount it and backup the file itself.

              The one thing I want to check (but haven't) is if a volume encrypted with TrueCrypt can be decrypted with any other tool that has the same encryption scheme. (Does the file decrypt and does it appear as a logical drive image?)

              If that is the case, it would be a handy way of

    • If someone else is paying, go for it. If not, spend your money more wisely on a cert that will actually test your knowledge and troubleshooting skills, instead of a cert that will have you parrot the M$ party line and give you *NO* actual technical knowledge at all.

      I did my MCSA (never finished the MCSE - couldn't face those pointless design exams) and thought I knew loads. I have since discovered I knew *nothing*. In fact, I had to un-learn everything M$ had taught as I came to realise that the exams were

    • Here's another example of Microsoft's lack of caring toward its customers: The SchTasks [microsoft.com] documentation.

      Look at the second line: To view the command syntax, click the following command:

      Notice that there are no links.

      Note that the line: schtasks create should be bold, but isn't.

      It should say that this command replaces AT.EXE, but it doesn't.

      A list of all of Microsoft's abusiveness would require many, many books.

  • MCE and other certs (Score:5, Informative)

    by sethadam1 ( 530629 ) * <ascheinberg@gmai ... minus physicist> on Saturday July 09, 2005 @10:05AM (#13020326) Homepage
    I have my NT 4.0 certs, and because back then, getting a Microsoft cert meant you could read a book and/or memorize the Transcender tests which were the exact same question with "Bob" substituted in for "Sally."

    Recently, I did some work with some third party engineers on a few projects, and was surprised to find that they, like many companies, will not hire non-MCSAs these days. I did some additional research, and found this to be true - the certs are MUCH harder to get these days than they used to be, and the majority of the companies I called said that certs was a "make or break" when they reviewed resumes.

    Here at Slashdot, you'll get a thousand idiots making fun of Microsoft, telling you to use Linux, and saying your MCSE isn't worth shit.

    Let me dispell that rumor: THEY ARE WRONG. Don't listen to them, their knowledge is VERY outdated. Get your MCSE - it will mean a better job and higher pay, no matter what anyone here tells you.

    • feeding a troll (Score:3, Interesting)

      by bubbaD ( 182583 )
      /.er's make fun of Microsoft because the MCSE is only helpful in getting a job and not really learning about computers.
      This has been true for a long time, and has nothing to do with "outdated knowledge." By all means get certified if it gets your foot in the door. But if you want to enjoy using computers, use un*x when you can.
      Anyone who doesn't know this already should not be entering the field at all, not debating what kind of certifications to get.
    • At my company (fortune 500 in healthcare), in my group, we could not care less about certs. I know, because I am one of the people that reviews resumes.

      I tell you what's more important: the actual experience.

      If I see a resume that says:

      EXPERIENCE
      2003-2005 Some Medium Company,
      Software engineer.
      Explored, Designed, and Implemented system with Oracle and MSSQL back-ends, data import from csv, excel, access, and xml from EDI and FTP drop-offs, data processing with informatica and dts, tomcat with hibernate an
    • I completely agree. A few years back you could simply pick up a transcender and memorize the questions and pass the test the next day. Its not like that anymore. True, you can still find a few places that have actual test questions, but for the most part all you are going to find are questions from previous versions of the test, that at the very best give you a feel for how the questions are written and what will be expected. Anyone who has their CCNA (which btw I hope all of you critizing certification

  • Exam Cram Books or Why MCSE is a good thing. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MichaelMarch ( 686675 ) on Saturday July 09, 2005 @10:38AM (#13020465) Homepage
    These little red books ar the best books out there. As for reading the Braindumps, I myself have read those over from time to time. Here's the math on the exams, from what I've noticed and been told. The number might not be correct but they are close as each exam is a little unique in there numbers. There is a total of 600 questions they can ask you for the exams, so say there is only six topics that divides up into 100 selectable questions for each topic. Now in each topic there is 10 questions. So each time you do the exam you get a 1/10 chances of seeing the same question. The point is, if you can read and remember 600 questions and assume that braindump has all those questions and all the questions are correct.. Then all the power to you. The real reason any MCP exam is worth anything, is to get your foot into the job interview. Seeing a MCSE 2000 or even a MCSE 2003 certification means they are serious about working in the IT field and they are not just some joe who likes computers and spends all his spare time talking on IM with people he will never meet and thinks he knows it all about computers. Any REAL computer/network experince comes from doing it and not READing about it.+
  • You're already have access to servers and a network. Use it. Practice working on the skills that are listed in the test objectives [microsoft.com]. If you can't or don't want to do this on you companies network, set up a lab at home. (at least 2 servers, recommend VMWare [vmware.com] or Virtual PC [microsoft.com] to get a more systems going, if you want)

    The MS Press books are ok but they don't spoon-feed you. Sybex books are also good. You'll get the most out of them is you spend time applying what you learned in the lab.

    Avoid Braindumps. You
    • Avoid Braindumps. You goals should be to learn not just pass the test.

      In an ideal world, yes. But if the primary goal of obtaining a cert is to get a better position with a company that for whatever reason requires MS certs, than I see no problem at all with braindumps and cramming.

      Everyone around here says that MS certs are worthless as indicators of practical knowledge, so why mess around with anything that is not designed to help you pass in the quickest possible way? Of course knowing what you are d

      • Sure, use the Briandumps but when people ask you how hard was it to get your MCSE, just tell them "Easy, I just bought the anwsers."

        Let me know how they react.

        If there is one thing that devalues any certification, it is cheating.
  • When hiring contractors or staff, if there is mention of MCSE, I file the resume into /dev/null.
    When taking on clients, if they ask me for MCSE, I file them into...you guessed it.../dev/null.
  • My bro ran into this studing for his certs. The Microsoft books are organized in such a way that each book has some necessary and vital information and a ton of filler. So you're stuck buying them _all_ for a complete overview of Microsoft systems. Welcome to the wonderful world of Microsoft press. You're better off with brain dumps, but OHOT you run the risk of becomming a paper MCSE.
  • My experience with certifications from several vendors (ex-consultant who used the certs to get in the door) is that the books from the vendor itself are almost always useless. This is for several reasons, but one of them is that the vendor has a vested interest in creating the impression that the certification is difficult to get.*

    The Sybex study guides I have used have all been excellent.

    *Not to mention the whole "Save the world by using NetWare" BS in the Novell guides. I could not finish the first one

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