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Media Technology

Libraries Use DRM to Expire Audiobooks 524

Valleye writes "CNN is reporting that some US libraries are using Microsoft Media DRM to automatically 'return' audiobooks checked out of their catalog. A patron with a valid library card visits a library Web site to borrow a title for, say, three weeks. When the audiobook is due, the patron must renew it or find it automatically "returned" in a virtual sense: The file still sits on the patron's computer, but encryption makes it unplayable beyond the borrowing period."
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Libraries Use DRM to Expire Audiobooks

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  • by benna ( 614220 ) * <mimenarrator@g m a i l .com> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:30AM (#13433921) Journal
    I would certainly read (or listen) more that way.
  • DRM (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Fuzzy_Nuts ( 740151 ) * <ArronLorenz AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:31AM (#13433923) Homepage
    A perfect use for DRM tech. DRM always catches a bad rep. I for one am glad to see that technology still has a place in everyday america.
    • Re:DRM (Score:5, Interesting)

      by jurt1235 ( 834677 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:54AM (#13433999) Homepage
      The second fair use of DRM I have seen sofar. Really using the idea how it should, not to protect something somebody bought a license for, but just to use it in a way the person agreed on beforehand (you borrow the book for 3 weeks is a pre agreed way).

      One question though: Does it run on linux?
      • Re:DRM (Score:2, Informative)

        "One question though: Does it run on linux?"

        Not according to the article. It's WMA, and also won't run on iPods. Although this seems to be done through the library essentially outsourcing to another company, so perhaps some Linux-friendly companies will get into this...
        • Re:DRM (Score:3, Informative)

          Can't MPlayer play WMA files? I swear I remember using it to do that, although I doubt it could get around the DRM anyway. Might be worth a shot, though.
        • Linux support (Score:5, Interesting)

          by jurt1235 ( 834677 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:46AM (#13434185) Homepage
          WMA does not by definition exclude linux, just some company has to license WMA to make a player for linux. It will be costly I would guess, but if Microsoft wants to have support for their DRM, they could make this less costly, and have the support of the linux crowd for their DRM behind them (embrace and maybe not assimilate this time?)
          • Re:Linux support (Score:3, Informative)

            by BillyBlaze ( 746775 )
            DRM may not exclude any particular piece of hardware implicitly, but because it does ultimately depend on security by obscurity, it does exclude an entirely open-soure stack. That might become possible with hardware support, but then you've just traded obfuscated software for obfuscated hardware.
      • Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Technician ( 215283 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @05:28AM (#13434294)
        The second fair use of DRM I have seen sofar.

        Unfortunately for many DRM raises the ugly incompatibility problem. It isn't an Audio CD or MP3. As such it simply won't work in my car during my commute.

        On the flip side, stuff in public domain (there is lots) is most often downloadable in MP3 format, can be burnt on a CD as either Audio or MP3 and works fine with most MP3 players.

        Fine, I won't listen to the latest Clancy novel, but I can listen to Abbot and Costello, Grocho Marx, Amos & Andy, Jack Benney, The Bickersons, Orson Wells, countless radio mystery shows, and etc.
        • Re:DRM (Score:3, Funny)

          by jurt1235 ( 834677 )
          Buy an DRM-WMA enabled car stereo system. The bad part I guess will be that once your book expires, your car will stop too (-:
        • Re:DRM (Score:4, Insightful)

          by sukotto ( 122876 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @09:52AM (#13435930)
          It seems like the US congress will continue to extend copyright indefinitely. If so, nothing that is currently under copyright will *ever* be released to the public domain.

          I guess the old joke is true. "If pro is the opposite of con, what's the opposite of progress?"
      • Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Total_Wimp ( 564548 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @07:13AM (#13434760)
        One question though: Does it run on linux?

        Nah. It doesn't run Mac either.

        The problem with this DRM doesn't have much to do with fairnes, but rather with lock-in. If you borrow from this library you better be sporting Windows.

        This line from the article kind of sums it up: Just as the lack of a standard digital audio format has fragmented the music download market, it affects audiobooks.

        In days past, you could buy, rent, borrow from just about anyone and be able to play it on the prevailing media player of the day. In the new digital millenium, you lock yourself out of a significant part of the media world based on your choice of player.

        Yeah, you could point to Beta and VHS as an example of what happened in the past, but at least one of those choices was a choice for a variety of companies who make sorce material and media players. This is more like Beta vs. Beta; no matter what you choose, you choose lock-in to one company or another.

        I happen to own a Windows SmartPhone, so I could borrow from this library, but I couldn't let my daughter use it on her iPod. If this happend ot be FairPlay instead of WMA, then she could have borrowed it and I'd be stuck. The only way for consumers to win with DRM will be for all the players to agree on one standard, but the weather forcast still looks quite hot in hades at the moment.

        TW
    • Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Lussarn ( 105276 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:25AM (#13434114)
      The reason this DRM scheme sounds better is in the wording. You loan/rent, when you loan/rent you know you can't resell. You know you can't keep it forever. You know the copy isn't yours at all.

      This scheme actully looks very much like other DRM schemes (like the one where student books where destroyed after the semester). The difference is that in that case it was labeled as "buying". Of course no such thing as first sale [wikipedia.org] existed. I have yet to see a DRM scheme where you can resell the goods you own, and therefore I call all existing schemes as renting, and cheating on the consumer who thought they bought the goods.

      I know there are some here who defend this with "you buy a licence to play the music", not a licence to own it. That may be true but it isn't in anyway expressed clear enough when you "buy" it.
      • Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Fuzzy_Nuts ( 740151 ) * <ArronLorenz AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:40AM (#13434160) Homepage
        Thats not what this article was about. The reason it sounds better is becuase it's a fair use system. Presumably the library bought the book, and therefore own a copy of the book. You then agree to borrow the book for a certian amount of time. Whereas when you DRM protect a CD, you cannot let your friend borrow the DRM protected content because you not your friend own the DRM. You cannot sell the DRM to your friend because thats not how it works. The reason this sounds better is because it's an actual fair use agreement.
        • Re:DRM (Score:5, Interesting)

          by baadger ( 764884 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @05:30AM (#13434299)
          The whole point of renting or leasing (besides the fact that it's a good idea if don't actually WANT to keep the item).. is it's cheaper.

          The reason it's cheaper is when you rent a DVD or borrow a book from the library it goes back to be rented or borrowed by others, and so eventually initial costs are covered and profits are made.

          This all breaks down with any digital format because items can be duplicated thousands of of times with almost a zero cost (bandwidth or media costs) after their original purchase. Not 'returning' the item won't lead to a loss for the library.

          If I borrow something from the library it's unlikely I'm going to want to borrow it again anyway (otherwise I would have bought it), the library isn't going to get anything more from me for that item, so why is expiring the audiobook necessary? Don't they trust me not to duplicate it and give it to others?

          No, the reason they can't do this the authors/publishers of said items are after $$$ per reader. This is why IMO more authors should embrace the likes of the street performer protocol [google.com]

          Yeah so it's a more favourable use of DRM, protects the borrowed items from damage or loss, reduces costs of recovery and administration and keeps the library's collection constant and available to all all the time. On the other hand it just shows up other debates often seen here on Slashdot.
          • Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Grab ( 126025 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @09:10AM (#13435533) Homepage
            Don't they trust me not to duplicate it and give it to others?

            No, because they're not bloody stupid. If you hand it around, that's less income for the authors and publishers, who are the people enforcing these rules.

            For music, it makes some sense to have free downloads. Musicians traditionally make their money from gigs and not from CD sales, so more enlightened musicians say "go on, give your friends a copy" in the hope that said friends will be along to the next gig.

            But that logic falls down with books. It's been a long time since authors would go on tours and have people pay to hear them read their books. Audio books are alive and well, but only on a recording basis, so the only way of getting money off them is to charge per recording.

            The SPP and other systems are a nice idea. Trouble is that experience shows they don't work. Even Stephen King couldn't get enough people to pay for a story delivered by installments about 4 years ago - and if he couldn't make it work, you can forget about anyone else doing it.

            Bottom line is that there's a range of prices people will pay for anything, with low and high limits. The low limit is usually "gratis" or close to. If charged, they'll willingly pay anywhere within that range (maybe a bit more unwillingly as you go towards the high limit, but they'll still pay). But if they're asked to donate, they'll typically donate the low limit amount - which often amounts to "gratis". If you get a physical item, people are more likely to put money in the pot, because they can see that the article has cost something to produce. But a file? It costs nothing to upload/download, so why pay for it unless you have to? Like it or not, that's the attitude you're dealing with, and that's why no author will use the SPP to make their living.

            Grab.
    • Re:DRM (Score:3, Insightful)

      by St. Arbirix ( 218306 )
      But doesn't this seem just a little... silly? There's something about using new technology specifically to perpetuate antiquated systems of ownership that smacks of being naive. It's as if we can only let technology revolutionize things so far before we get uncomfortable and need to figure out ways to reinforce old habits despite the fact that they are completely unnecessary anymore.
    • Re:DRM (Score:4, Interesting)

      by irc.goatse.cx troll ( 593289 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @06:23AM (#13434520) Journal
      And exemplifies just how evil it really is.
      What if we couldn't read Einsteins papers because our key is no longer valid? Or if all copies of 1984 suddenly have their keys revoked? DRM in libraries is a horrible thought. I don't care if the terms are fair so far, the concept is bad enough on its own to warrant boycott. You can't accept this stuff in your life if you want society to be an acceptable place in 20 years.
  • But... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by postgrep ( 803732 ) <djandercore@noSpaM.gmail.com> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:32AM (#13433928) Homepage Journal
    Couldn't someone just use an audio program (cubase, cakewalk etc) to make a loopback recording, effectively making a non-DRM copy? This technology seems effective in expiration dates, but ineffective against piracy. Still.
    • Re:But... (Score:3, Informative)

      by cronotk ( 896650 )
      Dunno how the laws handle it where you live, but in Germany it's absolutely legal to make copies this way (as long as you do NOT give it to others).
      We have a right to make a private copy as long as we do not BREAK a copy-protection.

      Lucky us :)
      • Re:But... (Score:2, Funny)

        by postgrep ( 803732 )
        Very lucky you. Here in Australia, it's technically illegal to video tape things off tv. Despite the fact that VHS is now played off as "dead".
    • Re:But... (Score:2, Interesting)

      Sure, you could photocopy the whole thing too, but it's still an ingringement of the copyright terms. Why shouldn't a library protect itself against selfish users who can't return something on time so that others can use it? And no, the fact that this is a digital copy doesn't change anything, as the library still has a license to distirbute a finite number of copies at a time. Just because it is Microsoft's DRM in question, shouldn't distract from the fact that this is a very intelligent use of the concept
    • There is a fantastic piece of software for the mac that allows you to do this. It's called "Audio Hijack". I've now got the pro version, but the demo is useful as well.

      Recently I was putting together a last-minute revue act and wanted to use sounds from Dr Who. I'd meant to download the files before leaving home, but had forgotten. Anyway - I had a rip of the Dr Who series on CD and was able to play the bits I wanted and then use this program to grab sound on loopback as the parent described. I managed to g
    • by WidescreenFreak ( 830043 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @05:49AM (#13434377) Homepage Journal
      Most sound cards are full-duplex and allow the input to be the mixer or "as you hear it". So, they effectively already have a loopback built into them. I've done this before in Windows.

      - Set the input to be the mixer or the "as you hear it" function
      - Start the Sound Recorder (or other sound editing program)
      - Open the audio file in another tool
      - Start recording
      - Start playing
      - Done

      Even then, how many of us have multiple computers? Here is a simple and effective DRM disabler:
      Line out (PC 1) --> Line in (PC 2)

      That's the thing that fervent, DRM supports just don't seem to understand. If you can hear it, you can record it.
      • by shark72 ( 702619 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:58PM (#13437947)

        "That's the thing that fervent, DRM supports just don't seem to understand. If you can hear it, you can record it."

        I'm sure they understand this just fine. They understand that it is impossible to make something absolutely copy-proof, so they settle for "sufficiently difficult."

        If you're not sure what I mean, consider the auto security business or even the home security business. It's impossible to make a cost-effective auto security system that will thwart the thief who has sufficient training and who has sufficient desire to take your car. However, 99% of car thieves don't fall into this category, so a decent security system is usually good enough.

        Slashdotters often think that because they have the motivation and the skills to jump through hoops to defeat DRM, then the public at large must also have this same motivation and skill. But, let's face it: when it comes to things technical, Slashdot readers are often up above the 90th percentile.

  • by taskforce ( 866056 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:33AM (#13433935) Homepage
    Isn't the whole point in returning a book to a library because there are a finite ammount of copies for people to read, so it would be unfair if you kept them for a long time.

    If digital audiobooks can have infinite copies made of them and distributed to the Library's members then is there actually a need to have them checked back in?

    • by MaineCoon ( 12585 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:36AM (#13433944) Homepage
      It is a licensed work, with a finite number of licenses.

      This is similiar to group licensing schemes, where software is licensed for a number of seats at a company but licensing is handled by a server. A limited number of users can use the software at any time. If someone needs to use it and the licenses are used up, someone else must stop using it for the time being (or more licenses must be purchased).
      • by BorgDrone ( 64343 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:56AM (#13434006) Homepage
        And this is exactly the problem with DRM and the whole copyright thing.

        You have to return a normal dead-tree book because there are only a few copies, and making more copies costs time, materials and money. Because of this, the product is scarce and thus market forces (supply/demand) apply.

        Digital media, however, can be copied without any significant costs whatsoever, there is no longer a 'real' scarcity. The publishers are still trying to sell the work on a per-copy basis like they always did, combined with negligible reproduction costs this means lots-of-$$$. Unfortunately for the publishers, consumers are recognizing that there the products scarcity is purely fictional, and they don't accept this.
        • by Sancho ( 17056 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:18AM (#13434089) Homepage
          How, then, would you propose to sell "digital media"? If you don't like the per-copy scheme, describe a scheme that will work and allow all people involved to be making the same amount of money they're making now (not an unreasonable stipulation, I think).
          • by k.a.f. ( 168896 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @05:16AM (#13434266)

            No, it is not reasonable, because the world changes.

            Some people write books to make money. Some people write books because
            it satisfies them personally. Back when book copying was infeasibly
            expensive, both of them had an incentive for continuing to write. Now
            that copying has become feasibly cheap, those that write only for the
            money have less of an incentive, and that is as should be (cue
            Heinlein quote).

            Establishing artificial restrictions on copying in order to prop up a
            failed incentive is ultimately wasteful.
          • describe a scheme that will work and allow all people involved to be making the same amount of money they're making now (not an unreasonable stipulation, I think).

            I work with creating digital goods. I think it is a horribly unreasonable stipulation.

            A parallel is the attempt at blocking the use of robots for production (and there were attempts), on the basis that "All the people involved should be making the same amount of money."

            The question isn't how we can keep the status quo. The question is "How

          • If you think about current library practices, nobody makes more money if 100 people borrow a book then if 2 people do. Sure, you have to return a physical book before someone else can borrow it, but nobody benefits financially. So why the need to limit borrowings of electronic media? The library buys one copy and pays for it...after that it doesn't matter who read it, in house or out.
            • by Sancho ( 17056 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @06:34AM (#13434571) Homepage
              As others have noted, with a book unavailable if someone else is using it, another demand is created. At our local library, books can be checked out for 3 weeks. It's not uncommon for lazy people to keep the book that long, particularly if it's something they specifically wanted to read (as opposed to the person who continuously has books checked out and basically devours them). If the library only has one copy of that book, and they all keep it out for even only two weeks, then that's 198 weeks before that last person gets to read the book. That's almost 4 years.

              The demand, then, is to have the item now. Most people don't want to wait 4 years to read the latest Harry Potter book. As such, sales of the book will be higher than simply people who want to collect the series. I suspect that if everyone could legally download the book for free, there would be a measurable impact on the sales. Oh, I'm sure JK would still be Rowling in the dough (ha ha) but ultimately, she would be making less money. As such, they want to limit this effect and -- funny thing -- as copyright holders, they get to do so.
          • by Eivind ( 15695 ) <eivindorama@gmail.com> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @06:00AM (#13434426) Homepage
            describe a scheme that will work and allow all people involved to be making the same amount of money they're making now (not an unreasonable stipulation, I think).

            Yes, it is *very* unreasonable. New technologies sometimes makes old services or technologies obsolete. This frequently leads to people who used to make money providing those services or technologies to loose money.

            Claiming that it's "reasonable" that "all people involved" in the old bussiness of printing and distributing books should earn as much as they did before in the new technology of electronically distributing books is just as reasonable as demanding that the ice-man should keep his pay after the invention of the refridgerator, or that the buggy and whip manufacturers should have the right to hold back the progress of the automobile.

            Some jobs remain. Digital books still need one or more authors, good editors, artwork, marketing, and (minimal) distribution. They don't need printing-presses, paper, ink, trucks to drag them around, large shelves for standing on and so on. Those services and technologies are simply, as far as ebooks are concerned, obsolete.

            You don't find many monks earning a living by hand-writing bibles these days. Thats a result of the (according to you) "unreasonable" idea that some jobs become obsolete when new technologies solve the same problem simpler/cheaper/better.

        • So let's summerise your world:

          1 - We all copy everything with impunity.
          2 - Authors and publishers don't get paid
          3 - No more new content
          4 - NO profit. Everyone loses in the end.

          This a perfectly valid and sensible use of DRM. As another poster said, EVERYONE wins. The consumer can stay on his butt at home, the publishers and authors still get royalty, libraries don't need shelf space and a big ol' public building... I'm sure there's more...

        • You have to return a normal dead-tree book because there are only a few copies, and making more copies costs time, materials and money. Because of this, the product is scarce and thus market forces (supply/demand) apply.

          Because, as we all know, the only resources that is used in the production of a book is cellulose. Book authors can live off thin air and public recognition.

          Unfortunately for the publishers, consumers are recognizing that there the products scarcity is purely fictional, and they don't accept
  • Valid use for DRM (Score:5, Insightful)

    by aussie_a ( 778472 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:33AM (#13433938) Journal
    I think this is a perfectly valid use for DRM. It allows libraries to offer digital content, without screwing over the copyright holder. It's not like libraries are able to photocopy entire books and lend them out.

    There is no way to be able to force people to delete it on their computer except via DRM. People who use this content, AREN'T paying for it (at least in most public libraries), and while it's most likely very easy to break the DRM, the library isn't forced to enforce their DRM, their responsibility (and liability) stop at placing the DRM onto the content. Unlike commercial copyright distributors, they don't need to make it more convoluted with a harder system to stop people from breaking the DRM.

    It's unfortunate that a Microsoft DRM is being used (as I assume it can only be played on Microsoft systems), but it's most likely the easiest and most well known DRM to the people that put the DRM on the content (and the library staff can most likely offer trouble-shooting help with it as a result).
    • Re:Valid use for DRM (Score:5, Interesting)

      by LordLucless ( 582312 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:40AM (#13433960)
      You mention the DRM is easily circumventable. And it is. But then, its just as easy to duplicate the current audiobooks being distributed on tape and CD. But if the DRM can keep the duplication down to the level previously experienced with tapes and CDs, then the content providers can't really complain. And in the meantime, borrowers get the convenience of borrowing from the comfort of their own homes. Win/win. If only all DRM scenarios worked like this.
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Re:Valid use for DRM (Score:3, Informative)

          by QuantumG ( 50515 )
          Shock! Ya know Joe Schmoe probably seeks out and downloads more software than any of us tech geniuses because he doesn't know the dangers of running arbitary software on his computer and/or trusts his antispyware apps to keep him safe.
    • Although, since I can call, or go online to auto renew my non-DRM'd content, I hope they will naturally extend it to this.

      Also, I guess with certain material, libraries will have streaming servers.

      Do they still have a virtual number of copies that can be loaned at any one time?

    • I think this is a perfectly valid use for DRM. It allows libraries to offer digital content

      I don't think it's a valid use at all. It's a public library, paid for with public funds, but it distributes midia based on a Microsoft-only DRM plan. Users with Linux (or I expect Apple) who decide not to spend the money on a Microsoft version of the software that will support this DRM approach get less access to material than those who support Microsoft. I think that's an extremely dangerous trend to start with l

    • I think this is a perfectly valid use for DRM. It allows libraries to offer digital content, without screwing over the copyright holder. It's not like libraries are able to photocopy entire books and lend them out.

      Except that it locks library patrons into MS' DRM schemes. MS has been found guilty (even after appeal) of illegally abusing its desktop monopoly to gain entrance to new markets and wipe out the competition. This has been in the courts in both the US and the EU. Libraries should not be hel

  • Workable DRM (Score:5, Insightful)

    by LordLucless ( 582312 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:34AM (#13433941)
    This is actually one of the few types of DRM that I can actually see as being worthwhile. That is, a type of DRM that emulates the current, physical limitations of property in digital space rather than manufacturing artificial restrictions.

    This sort of feature makes libraries more accessible, without lmiting the borrowers any more than the previous system. If this is the sort of thing DRM is going to be used for, then good for it. I doubt it though.
    • Re:Workable DRM (Score:3, Insightful)

      by zerblat ( 785 )
      It's still an artificial restriction. Technology advances and becomes more capable. The fact that certain restrictions existed in a previous generation of technology doesn't mean it makes sense for new technology. It's like having a speed limit of 10 km/h for cars because horse-drawn carriages can't travell any faster than that.
      • Re:Workable DRM (Score:4, Insightful)

        by LordLucless ( 582312 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:24AM (#13434111)
        Perhaps I used poor terminology. I should say that the DRM used in this scenario creates no additional restrictions - it creates digital objects that have the same restrictions as their physical counterparts. Provided there are no irritating side-effects to this restriction, I don't have a problem with it. What I object to is when a digital object is DRM-encumbered in such a way that it is more restricted than it's physical counterpart - like CDs that won't play in certain computers, or DVDs that cannot be played in a country other than that which they are purchased in.

        It may be, as you imply with your analogy, that the old way is passing away, and soon we'll all enjoy infinitely redistributable content. But I wouldn't bet on it. Schemes to artificially limit demand (which is essentially what DRM, copyright, and all that jazz is) are generally successful and sustainable for the ones implementing it - that's why there are anti-trust laws against some instances of it. If it was something that would intrinsically fail, it wouldn't need to be regulated. I'm afraid the current model of licensing and artificial scarcity is going to be with us for a while.
  • by DenDave ( 700621 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:35AM (#13433942)
    Audiobooks... I can't figure out what the problem is with reading...

    Anyway, this would seem to be an appropriate use of DRM technology. Of course I would imagine that with an audiobook the quality of the sounds is not as important as with music so someone really bent on keeping a copy would either burn it to cd if their system could do that and otherwise simply record from the audio output of their pc...

    I wouldn't but then again, I would never get an audiobook... I prefer to read.

    • Audiobooks... I can't figure out what the problem is with reading... Dyslexia, blindness and other disabilities are what makes reading a problem for many. As for the DRM, I think its a terrible idea, anyone intending to copy the file could do so easily. The only effect this will have is against lazy people: those unwilling to make the trip to the website or library to "return" the file but this efficiency is greatly outweighted by the cost of implementing this system.
    • by SolitaryMan ( 538416 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:04AM (#13434037) Homepage Journal
      Audiobooks... I can't figure out what the problem is with reading...

      I can give you several reasons:
      1. You can listen to the audio book, when there is no light or it is not satisfactory. (I do that when I travel by train at night)
      2. You can listen to it when you are jogging, walking or driving.
      3. When I come back from work, my eyes are already tired enough, so reading can be literally painful...
    • Audiobooks... I can't figure out what the problem is with reading...

      It's hard to see on-coming traffic while doing it.
    • Oh that's right, There are no BLIND people in the world anymore...

      THINK before you post!
  • Linux? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by pimpsoftcom ( 877143 )
    What about linux compatability? Mplayer will often play files just fine with the right plugins.. at least on gentoo.
  • Not cracked yet? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by putko ( 753330 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @03:42AM (#13433963) Homepage Journal
    I guess as soon as you can watch Star Wars with this stuff, the DRM will get cracked in a few days.

    Pure software methods always get cracked. Even hardware, as Bruce Schneier mentions, gets cracked, routinely. It really is just a question of how much time, and how much resources it takes to break it. The problem with digital stuff is that once you do it, you've cracked it for everyone.

    The town of "Fucking" (that really is the name) in Austria had a problem with people stealing [ananova.com] the signs. They recently moved to a new system, where the signs are really hard to steal. But as the mayor said -- "it would take all night to steal". Not, "you can't steal it" -- but it will take so long that someone will/may come along and arrest you before you make off with it.

    With DRM, the guy gets to take the "sign" home for a few weeks at a time, until he can manage to crack it -- and once he does, you don't have any clue that he's done it.
    • Re:Not cracked yet? (Score:3, Informative)

      by MosesJones ( 55544 )
      Pure software methods always get cracked

      Always can theoretically get cracked. This doesn't mean that they always HAVE been cracked.

      With DRM, the guy gets to take the "sign" home for a few weeks at a time, until he can manage to crack it -- and once he does, you don't have any clue that he's done it.

      Which is why we should expect two tier DRM to become a standard pretty soon, first level to "protect", second level to "inform", so sure you can crack the protection, but it then sends a message to inform. Of c
    • Why is ananova.com censoring the name of an Austrian town?

      Anybody offended by it shouldn't be allowed on the internet or let out of the house IMHO.

    • Actually, every time some tourist would take the sign, an exact duplicate would appear in its place.

      There is a fundamental difference between the 'real' and the digital world - in the real world, copies are bounded by resources and costs. In the digital world, only information (= ideas, abstract concepts) is copied around, which costs about zero.

      DRM for libraries its probably more legitimate, but nevertheless an artificial limitation.
    • Re:Not cracked yet? (Score:3, Informative)

      by Vo0k ( 760020 )
      Audio books, unlike great most of electronic media, suffer very little quality loss from analog ripping. Just grab the audio stream and re-encode it as MP3. Sure you lose some audio quality, but unlike in music, in case of books it doesn't matter all that much at all - the voice may sound different, there may be a little more noise, but the content will be still just as understandable.
  • From what I can see, Libraries make a fair bit of income from fees for overdue books. This helps to pay for new books, repairs, etc.

    Also books in electronic format tend to cost more than the paperback alternatives for the amount of lending licenses necessary.

    So who is going to pay for this? Is there going to be a charge for loaning the books?

  • by A beautiful mind ( 821714 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:03AM (#13434033)
    I ment the Intellectual Property / Copyright one, not the library.

    In the internet age where someone wants to claim ownership to various bitflows, it just simply doesn't work. The whole definition of storing and copying bitflows invalidates the entire system of intellectual property because of it's given nature. In this environment IP and Copyright is an outdated system blocking innovation.

    Sooner or later the pressure will be too high as the internet gets into more and more areas of our life, it will force the rethinking of the information restricting laws.

    This library attempt to introducte DRM is especially a bad case since libraries should be storehouses of information, not restricters of them.

    Someone will surely try to point me to the positive sides of IP and Copyright. There are some, but as of today the benefits are far outweighted by the negative effect it creates, even on innovation. Without patent protection, people would still create, or even create much more freely. In the age of internet, it is even concivable that those people would cooperate strengthening innovation. It is the human nature to create, just look at the F/OSS movement.

    Before someone brings up the example of drugs, let me try to answer it: those companies researching would still research, but they would also need to compete on manufacturing those drugs the best possible way and no such situation could arise where they try to sell AIDS medicine to poor african countries at the price of 20 times of the manufacturing costs only because of someone's intellectual property.

    Let me put it this way: IP stiffles teamwork and derivative works. In today's age that is a huge loss, instead of the whole internet community working on something, only a selected few can, which makes it slow and expensive. Would huge corporations still rake wild profits from selling a drug? No. Would they make a decent profit from manufacturing them? Absolutely.

    Let's get back to a world where we stick to physical reality, not imaginary intellectual property.
    • In this environment IP and Copyright is an outdated system blocking innovation.
      I heard they have something up their sleeve against it. I think it was called IPv6?
    • Hear hear! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Steeltoe ( 98226 )
      Good points! I was thinking some of them while reading the posts here.

      I can't believe people here fall for DRM as soon as they can get something for free..

      What we need is people thinking on the whole system, not just wether they themselves can get something by giving less for it. When everyone does that, it stops the flow of money.

      I have a solid income, yet I vote for those parties here in Norway that favours schools, libraries, human values and strengthening the local community. This will certainly take mo
  • Whew... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Edward Teach ( 11577 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:09AM (#13434058)
    It is a good thing no one can hook the audio out to a tape recorder. Man, we would be in real trouble then!
  • by mattr ( 78516 ) <<mattr> <at> <telebody.com>> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:10AM (#13434061) Homepage Journal
    To posters who said this is why DRM is useful, consider what is the POINT of a library?

    It is not a bookstore or cd/video rental shop. Patrons do not pay money each time they take a book out. They may be charged late fees due to scarcity issues, but the main idea is to enable the person to read the content.

    The person can come back many times to take the book out again if he needs more time. But there is no point physically going to the library if it is a digital item on his drive.

    In other words, even if the liscense required only a fixed number of people being able to view a title at a given time, it STILL would not make sense, because the DRM does not know if there are enough other copies to go around. It might be that nobody else is in fact interested in the file.

    Therefore, the idea of a DRM "period" is bogus. At the very least, the user should be able to add another period if there are enough copies left in the stacks. It should not require an Internet line either, and it should be able to run on free software not some attackware that executes on my computer in a manner contrary to my wishes.

    I have another point that may be unpopular with big business. It would be much better in my book if the library was able to purchase more items on a sliding scale as things got more popular, but not be bound to micromanage every copy on a user's hard drive.

    You see, the point of the library is to ensure that everyone can get access to information, not just people with a lot of disposable income. You don't have to go buy the book or cd/dvd if your library has it. A library is not intended to be a marketing mechanism that makes you want to go buy the title. It is not intended to respond to the marketplace due to its competition with a bookstore/rental shop.

    Considering that most people don't check the same book out of their library over and over again, a library normally wouldn't care if the user had a way to keep copies after returning them. The library has no responsibility for making sure that the user does not keep a copy on his drive even after the first time the user has read the copy, because it is there to promote access, not control access (except adult content maybe). If there is a good library nearby, you should never have to go to a store to get what you want.

    Therefore, it stands to reason that:

    1. DRM erasing files on your machine after a given period is WRONG. Lateness should engender late fees, so the person can balance opportunity cost at least.
    2. You can't "lose" a file like you can lose or destroy a book, and books at least can be distributed for massively less money on cd or online. Such cost savings should be figured in when purchasing and when deciding on checkout policies.
    3. Even if the library purchases titles with a maximum simultaneous readers clause in it, if enough copies are available it should extend the period so that late fees are waived.
    4. The library should be able to calculate AVERAGE SIMULTANEOUS READERSHIP of a given title to maximize its investment and give readers some of the benefits of digital technology. In other words, it should allow a burst of MORE simultaneous users than contracted, and then balance that out by artificially reducing the number of titles that can be simultaneously read at a later date. This can be amortized over a Very Long Time (tm), which gives the library some time to consider buying more simultaneous liscenses when it really needs them.
    5. Libraries should demand contracts with publishers which allow them to calculate average simultaneous readership to allow for readership bursts (say due to holidays or related news events). Libraries must also demand the option to easily purchase more liscenses at a later time based on an industry-wide open standard compliant form.
    6. Libraries should fight tooth and nail against DRM that erases information and any other tools that undermine what a library is typically supposed to do.
    7. High cost
    • I see you did not read the article, or even the slashdot article. Nor do you make much sense in your reasoning.
      • The DRM does not erase the file, it simply stops decrypting the file.
      • The patron can renew his checkout of the audiobook.
      • The patron downloaded the audiobook over the internet. Why shouldn't he have to renew it over the internet?
      • As the DRM keeps the files from being decrypted after it is supposed to be returned, there are no late fees.
      • The libraries buy the audiobook download service from companies wh
    • Therefore, the idea of a DRM "period" is bogus. At the very least, the user should be able to add another period if there are enough copies left in the stacks.

      If you read it, they can.

      It should not require an Internet line either,

      How else would you suggest they check whether there are copies available? I suppose you could go into the library, but then how would they get the license onto your computer?

      and it should be able to run on free software not some attackware that executes on my computer in a mann

  • Many people in this thread have already commented on how this is a perfectly valid use of DRM. I completely agree with that. I actually think that _any_ instance where the copyright holder puts DRM on something is perfectly valid; after all, they _are_ the copyright holder. So far so good.

    Other people have commented that this DRM will be cracked. And that, once the protections are removed, the content will be made available in an unrestricted format. This is true. However, that would probably happen even if
    • by Pofy ( 471469 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:37AM (#13434153)
      >Many people in this thread have already
      >commented on how this is a perfectly valid use
      >of DRM. I completely agree with that. I actually
      >think that _any_ instance where the copyright
      >holder puts DRM on something is perfectly valid;
      >after all, they _are_ the copyright holder. So
      >far so good.

      However, most of the DRM part has NOTHING to do with copyright. Restricting how long you can view or read something has nothing to do with copyright. The copyright holder has no exclusive right for that. The copyright holder can control a few things such as copying and public performance due to being exclusive to them, nothing else. DRM however, add completely new control over things that has nothing to do with copyright.
  • DIVX anyone? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by krunk4ever ( 856261 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @04:39AM (#13434159) Homepage
    remember the DIVX system Circuit City tried to implement?
    http://hometheater.about.com/library/weekly/aa0621 99.htm [about.com]

    This disc format allowed the consumer to make an intitial movie purchase for as low as $4.49, which allowed one to watch the movie as many times as they wanted within a 48 viewing period. In order to watch the film again after that time, the viewer had to reactivate the viewing period with the DIVX computer. In other words, the player was tied in to the phone line and the consumer had to punch in his credit card number to a main-frame computer in Virginia in order to view his movie.

    it's basically DRM with another renting schema that fell through. i thought it was actually pretty neat, but i guess because of the physical disc barrier, it wasn't well received. if they can make home theater pcs download these DRMed movies and give them an expiration of 48hours or 1 week or something, I think that'll be totally awesome!
  • Here's something that seems to be a perfectly responsible and non-fascist way of employing it. The basic premise of copyright law, that artists/inventors/etc ought to profit from their work in order to enable them to produce more, is a good one (discussions on corporate corruption of its implimentation some other tmie, please). As we consider the ever evolving methods of digital publishing and information accessability, we must consider this as a way to foster both control over a medium and respect for th
  • by Fantastic Lad ( 198284 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @05:54AM (#13434402)
    In one of the several Miles Vorkosigan [amazon.com] novels, the Ender-like genius needed a file from a military protected computer system. He was assured that there was simply no way to by-pass the high level protection system. A file will simply not leave the computer it is on unless the user had the correct authority, etc.

    This was just a minor blip in Mile's day (to paraphrase); "What? But I absolutely need to read that file. Can't you just send it to me?" (This is over a telecom system. He was phoning from deep space or somewhere to a buddy in mission control.)

    "Sorry, Miles. There's just no way. This file will simply not leave this terminal."

    "Well. . ." Miles thought. "Why don't you just turn the terminal around so that it faces the vid camera, and I can just read it from here."

    "Hm. Okay."

    Done and done. He earned a commendation for that one. The security chiefs in sci-fi books aren't very bright, it seems.


    -FL

  • uhh... (Score:3, Informative)

    by XO ( 250276 ) <blade.eric@NoSPAM.gmail.com> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @07:04AM (#13434707) Homepage Journal
    See, everyone here is completely missing the point. Not just a little off, but TOTALLY MISSING. (at least in the first 40 comments, that I read before I clicked reply)

      Going to the library and borrowing a book that belongs to the library does not transfer you ownership of that book. This is why they call it BORROW. That doesn't change if it's a book on cassette, or a book on CD, or a book on any other kind of media.

      Unless you (collective) can suggest a better alternative than "per unit ownership", which I highly doubt you (collective) will be able to do, that's the way it is going to work. You don't go to a library to permanently take their book. And it's not the scarcity of it that makes it need to be returned. They own one, they can loan one. The library could make a zillion copies on their copier, but they DON'T because they've only paid for the number that are in the library. And what do you pay to get a book from your local library? or a magazine? or a CD? or whatever?

      Everywhere I've been the use of the library was free for city residents, and a once a year minimal charge for non-city residents. In fact, where I'm at now, the entire resources of the library are free, including internet access (though they do give you a fifteen minute time limit if there are other people waiting to use the machines). The only thing I've had to pay for there is paper for the copier/printer.

      So, who's got a better idea for how to sell a book, a CD, a movie, a whatever, than on a per-unit basis?
  • by Blitzenn ( 554788 ) * on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @07:14AM (#13434765) Homepage Journal
    I honestly don't care who's DRM scheme it is. I hat eto see this type of lending program fail. With publishers recent push to keep electronic version out of the hands of more than one person, it seems to me that they are backtracking on long established practice. I can always purchase book and when I am done with it, I can give it to a friend or family member and they can read it and so on. Now with Digital books, because of the new scheme, If I purchase one, I am the only person who can ever read it. I cannot lend it to someone or donate it a library (well there are a couple of ebooks donation programs, but they are difficult to use and you never own the book). To see it work from the other way around, a library purchasing the ebook and allowing many people to read it, is wonderful and should be fostered, no matter who's DRM scheme is used. Bickering of what schemes is only goign to play into the hands of publishers. I hate to see people state they will never use it simmply because it has an MS branding. You hurt all of us that way. We need it to work first and get established, then we can bicker over the software.
  • My Library Does This (Score:3, Informative)

    by randomErr ( 172078 ) <ervin,kosch&gmail,com> on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @07:28AM (#13434832) Journal
    My local library [lib.oh.us] is a part of a group that uses DRM books. You login to the system, download an application that interrupts a custom XML stream. The XML file then has key and paths for downloading the media files. Then it downloads the file and boom, you have a book (audio or textual) for three weeks of use with an option of burning it to CD.
  • by xmda ( 43558 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @11:56AM (#13437291) Journal
    It is now time again for reminding you all of what might happen if this goes too far:

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html [gnu.org]
  • DRM is bad, period. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by nothingx ( 809091 ) on Tuesday August 30, 2005 @12:12PM (#13437462)
    I think only because this is the least evil use of DRM any of us have ever seen, is everyone saying it's a good thing. While it is true that I, and most other people, would be willing to tollerate this kind of DRM, it is still nonetheless evil, and here is why.

    When you go to the library to do some research, they have publicly available copying machines. You can make your own copy of anything they have there for a small fee. Typically the fee is whatever it costs for paper, ink, and maintaining the copier. That copy is then yours, it never expires, and you can do whatever you need to with it provided that you're not profiting from the work. This is FAIR USE.

    If libraries actually needed to control documents, they would've been loading their copiers with dissapearing inks since the invention of the copier!! What has changed between now and then? Nothing! There is not, and never has been an actual need for DRM. It's just some bullshit scheme by the DRM manufacturers that's been cleverly sold to the library system, which will be shoved down the throats of every day users.

    DRM is bad, period. Do not ever accept it as fair, because it is not.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell

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