Windows Incompatibilities Frustrate D.C. Schools 476
capouch writes "The Washington Post reports that school administrators for the DC public school system are having an awful time getting their new administrative software to work properly." From the article: "'In my experience, the combination of an Oracle database, Windows operating system, Unix hardware and an Apache webserver is a bad combination,' Barlow wrote in the memo to Thomas M. Brady, the school system's chief business operations officer. 'In fact, through our research the last few days, we have found an advisory on the Apache website that states, 'Please note that at this time, Windows support is entirely experimental and is recommended only for experienced users.' The Apache Group does not guarantee that the software will work as documented or even at all...Barlow said officials plan to replace Windows with a different operating system."
That's What They Get... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, you have no idea!! My district for example, decided that the "best combination" was novell servers and windows98. Plus, at the very time the industry was going to blade servers, they were going to "fewer, more powerful" servers. of ocurse, the lady in charge of this retired the next year!! Now, every win98 box was loaded with anti-virus, admin software, lockdown, etc. they ran so sloooooooowwwwwwwwwww. and crashed 2 ways: regularly and consistently.
Later, we needed digital school money. We needed to have X computers per student, so what did they do? they went out and bought literally hundreds of P120's and P100's with 32MB ram, most of which ended up collecting dust in some back room in schools.
the decision was made, because of funding, to go with 98 instead of 2000, because the hardware requirements were too great for 2k, but when you ocnsider the extra costs of additional software, admining them, etc., it turns out that it's far more. instead of buying better hardware up front, they bought crap and piled crap upon crap.
now, as for overall school buying, here's the deal. you never come in under budget 'cause next year you'll get less. you always spend eevrything, bo over budget, get too little, then demand more next year. in fact, if principles have extra funds left over, they find dept chairs, etc., and see what they need. you can't have leftover money. eevry public school does this, even colleges. One of my profs in grad school told us he has list on excel that is rarin' to go as soon as the school year's up. he advised us to do the same.
I mention this because it is your tax dollars and your schools. I just teach in one of them. You need to stay on top of your school boards, especially those of you with tech savvy. Let them know (since they are elected) that they can't let the districts do stupid tech things.
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:5, Funny)
Hey, I'm still pissed off about the fact that we had those stupid scissors that couldn't cut anything in grade school. I mean, they were about as sharp as a basketball.
Plus, for some insane reason, most of them were left-handed.
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:3, Insightful)
Can't deal with being in a 'left handed world' for a few minutes a day? Try being left handed in a right handed world 24/7.
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:3, Insightful)
Nay, it's because "it's the industry's standard" mate
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:5, Insightful)
Newsflash!
This is how it works in any large organization, state or commercial. Anytime there is a disconnect in the feedback loop such that conserving money does not directly benefit the person who makes the decision to conserve, you will see that kind of behaviour.
Heck, it is even the primary reason that health insurance premiums keep increasing - people pay a fixed monthly fee regardless of how little or how much treatment they receive. So of course they will opt for the maximum amount of testing and treatment because the additional costs do not come out of their pocket - they already paid the premium before the costs are incurred. It only affects them at the next annual premium increase and then their personal decision to max-out the available treatments is just a drop in the bucket, lost in the noise of all the other drops in that bucket from everyone else doing exactly the same thing. Just like government and corporate spending.
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:4, Insightful)
But you have to be careful about setting it up the other way: so that any money saved benefits the person responsible. Then they make brain dead decisions.
What you need is a system that rewards "value" ( = benefit/expense) over a time period. The problem with most object/reward systems (MBO systems, for instance) is that the timeframe is too short (usually 1 quarter). The problem with a longer time period is that it may be long enough as to not seem like reality to the person it is meant to incent.
If you found a way to reward for "value delivered" both in the measured term (just closed) and by somehow predicting the future (with believable TCO obtained and long-term financial benefits), then you would have a system where people are rewarded for doing the right things.
Plus, you wouldn't have to worry about using up all your budget, because if you ask for more budget next year even though you didn't use it all this year, the "higher ups" may think you have a case, because if you spent extra money without good cause, you only hurt yourself.
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:3, Interesting)
A lot of schools in Norway were in this situations, and came up with SkoleLinux [skolelinux.org] ("School Linux") as a solution that is gaining popularity. Based on LTSP and Debian, it can really give new life to old computers. Check the web page, there is an English version
Not Corruption, But Poor Contractor Performance (Score:5, Informative)
In a former life I was a government employee deeply involved in bringing several IT systems online, from writing requirements to staff training to getting rid of something we didn't like.
Corruption of government employees was not an issue. Lack of research by government wasn't an issue.
The biggest single problem I saw was the creation of inadequate requirement specs. I saw this happen over and over for two reasons: 1) Governmenr employees lacked the technological backgrounded needed to express their needs in terms that their IT contractors could understand; 2) Contractors, especially those hired to help write the requirements, lacked awareness of their clients business needs and processes.
So, in effect, the government knew what it wanted to do but not how to translate that into a requirements doc, and the contractors did not know very much, and did not want to know very much, about the work done by their client. As a result contractors threw assorted pieces of their IT catalog against business processes they only vaguely understood.
I don't know how it works in DC, but in my environment, it would have been the contractor's responsibility to check the Apache website for that caveat about the Windows version. That's what they're paid to do.
Re:Responsibility (Score:3, Insightful)
Communication difficulties are not equivalent to learning disabilities. If that is what your shcool teaches, perhaps you ought to leave it.
In any case, i said nothing about communications, I said contractors did not understand the natrue of their customer's work or how their deliverables would actually be used by the customer's employees. I explicity did not say contractor per
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:3, Insightful)
I got news for you: this happens a lot in the private sector, too. Company XYZ is getting venture capital from Microsoft, so they use all Microsoft tools. Company ABC is using BEA as a sub-contractor, so they use all BEA tools. At least the school in TFA realize they have a problem.
On a related note, has anyone ever thought of branding a Lin
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:3, Funny)
Dear Slashdot,
We are thinging about using an Oracle database, Windows operating system, Unix hardware and an Apache webserver for our new administrative package.
What are your recommendations, based on your professional backgrounds and experience?
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:4, Insightful)
As opposed to purchasing in a corporate, which depends on who the CEO last beat at golf.
Having worked in government, academia and private industry I can honestly say that there is little to choose between them. In all of them the acronym PEST applies:
Decisions are 60% Political, 30% Economic, 9% Social and 1% Technical.
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:2)
Re:Some windows problems (Score:5, Insightful)
What the fuck are you talking about? The configuration is the same as it is under Unix.
The PHP-monkeys make sure the Windows-binaries are released at the same time that the source is released, to make their Windows-audience feel like they are worth something.
MySQL is just a bad database.
Re:Some windows problems (Score:3, Informative)
Windows|Linux Apache PHP/PERL ***ODBC***
Please.
I had to set up a relatively identical testing site to my production site, using two databases, postgres and mysql, and soon postgres/mysql AND Oracle.
Getting WAMP to work with postgres was nearly impossible without a properly configured cygwin environment (even with), and getting WAMP to work with postgres AND ODBC was impossible.
I had to resort to a FC2 install on a VMware Pro setup to get it working. This isn't a problem on my Linux hosts. But I'
Re:Some windows problems (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, with the current installer, installing Apache on Windows is brain dead easy. Getting MySQL (4.1) running under windows isn't rocket science, but getting PHP (5) to talk to MySQL in that environment is a pain the first time or two.
Re:Some windows problems (Score:5, Informative)
1) Install Apache with the MSI installer. Do not reboot (it doesn't ask, so no problem).
2) Install PHP from the ZIP archive. Just unzip it to C:\PHP (or C:\PHP5 for even less config editing)
3) Install MySQL with the MSI installer. DO NOT REBOOT (yet).
4) Run through the MySQL Config Wizard when asked (at the end of the install).
5) Set the DocumentRoot and any VirtualHosts you want in the Apache config. It works just like other platforms.
6) Copy and rename the php.ini-recommended file to just php.ini. Set the doc_root and extension_root (extension root should be "./ext") settings, and uncomment (remove the semicolon) "extension=php_mysql.dll" and uncomment or add (if it's not there) "extension=php_mysqli.dll".
7) Find the PHP install.txt file. Find your system/HTTP server/version combination and add the lines they say to the end of the Apache config. There should be 2 or 3 lines. A copy/paste will suffice.
8) Right-click My Computer, click Properties, click the Advanced tab, click Environment Variables... Now, on the bottom half of the dialog box are the environment variables for everyone (your user-specific ones are at the top). Find the one called "PATH" (not case sensitive, but is usually all upper-case) and add
9) Reboot. The environment variables aren't updated unless you reboot.
It's not a walk in the park, but after the first time and figuring out just where stuff is, it's pretty easy for a techie. Another note: I added stuff about VirtualHosts in Apache above, but didn't mention that you'll need to set up DNS entries or mess with your hosts file to get those to work. You can just skip the VirtualHosts if you don't know how to configure them. The rest of it will still work.
Re:Some windows problems (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Some windows problems (Score:3, Informative)
No, wrong. (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't choose an OS and then choose your main-line applications.
You choose the applications you need to run, in order to get whatever job you need done, and then you choose an operating system based on those applications.
In this case, they want or need Apache as a web server. That's a fine, defensible choice. It's popular. It's pretty easy to find support on it, even without a contract. Most sysadmins are familiar with it. It has a good track record. Etc.
They also want Oracle -- exactly why they'd want to do this I'm not sure, but they do. Fine.
Based on that, they should review their choice of an operating system. And from that, they should determine their hardware requirements. Absent of a lot of legacy applications or something which predetermine the OS and hardware decision, there isn't any reason why a person should pick a OS before they choose their software. That's just backwards.
Basically, it sounds like someone just was slightly lazy and didn't want to make the tough call and tell their bosses that they needed a new operating system for their server, and now they're paying the price. Perhaps that's a result of their institutional culture, I don't know. But it sounds like they finally understood that they went the wrong way.
Re:No, wrong. (Score:3, Interesting)
the people that made the decisions do not know SQUAT about what they are buying. Apache and Oracle were picked because someone heard that they were good.
PHB's that know just enough to be dangerous as hell.
that sums up their laundry list of a mess, a moron that heard of a few things, said we need these and now the IT group had to fight with it because management is too stupid or their ego's are too big to ask the EXPERTS they hired in the IT dep
Re:That's What They Get... (Score:5, Insightful)
Technology is not an area where one should expect the Post to get the facts straight. An administrator is allowed to second guess the IT system, unchallenged. "[Tut, tut,] in MY experience
Relying on an incomplete and inaccurate source (the Post article) means that all the chest thumping here on Slashdot is pointless. We don't really KNOW what the facts are. We don't know the actual situation.
Can you run Apache on Windows? Of course you can! But there isn't enough proper information in this article to know where the problem lies. It might just be that whoever setup this system, or the administrators of it, don't have it properly configured.
Then again, this is the DC Public School system. This could very well be as big a CF as the article implies. Possibly worse.
Wha? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Wha? (Score:4, Funny)
Oh wait, the spelling, nevermind!
Re:Wha? (Score:2)
Re:Wha? (Score:2)
No doubt (Score:5, Funny)
No doubt they are trying to run Windows Server 2003 on a Sunfire cluster with Oracle and Apache running on it.
No wonder they are running into trouble....
Re:No doubt (Score:2)
Perhaps running apache on windows NT 4.0 on DEC Alpha, like this guy here:
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/1028 [oreillynet.com]
"Unix Hardware" (Score:4, Interesting)
Unix Hardware (Score:2, Informative)
In this case, I think it really means hardware that Unix is running on, which could be almost anything.
Re:Wha? (Score:3, Interesting)
It sounds like he went to a DC school (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It sounds like he went to a DC school (Score:2)
Re:It sounds like he went to a DC school (Score:3, Funny)
So what will it be? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:So what will it be? (Score:2, Insightful)
Problem is with Unix hardware (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Problem is with Unix hardware (Score:5, Funny)
Wait... (Score:4, Insightful)
How long until Microsoft swoops in with salesmen and faulty TCO numbers to convince this county's school board to go all-MS?
After all, there wouldn't be these problems if the schools were using Windows XP workstations accessing MS-SQL servers running alongside Windows Server 2003 Enterprise IIS webservers. Right?
Because we all know it's cheaper that way, right? Right?
Re:Wait... (Score:2)
"Oracle database, Windows operating system, Unix hardware and an Apache webserver is a bad combination"
It sounds like they are already using Windows because they go on to say that Apache is telling them that the Windows version is experimental and some such and so is the support.
My question is what is considered "Unix hardware?" Are they talking about Solaris?
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
What's with the inflammatory headlines? It's not Windows per se that's causing the incompatibilities, just that the system's too heterogeneous. If they went with a regular Windows + Windows Server domain + IIS +
I'm not suggesting that an MS solution would be better. And I'm definitely not suggesting that monoculture is the answer. All I'm suggesting is that when two things are incompatible, Slashdot has a nasty habit of jumping to the conclusion that the MS side is the problem and we need to switch to an open-source utopia. Of course, MS may very well be the problem, but you can't make such a conclusion without enough evidence - which there wasn't.
And what's with the color scheme in apache./..org? Is this Mardi Gras Slashdot or something?
Re:Wait... (Score:4, Informative)
I agree that not having a monoculture is troublesome but only if you throw windows into the mix. MS tries it's best to lock the client into their solutions so they make it very hard to have any software other then MS in any network.
If you are going to choose a monoculture then go with unix, just don't let any windows box anywhere near your server room. Keep the windows boxes in the desktops of the users where it belongs.
Re:Generally... (Score:3, Funny)
Heterogeneous = "Consisting of dissimilar elements or parts; not homogeneous." (dictionary.com [reference.com])
Heterogenius = Me.
8-)
Poor Management and Poor Project Management (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Poor Management and Poor Project Management (Score:2)
As best as I can tell from the article either the Post completely hashed up something in its reporting and misquoted the CIO, the CIO doesn't have much of a clue about anything technical, or the CIO does have a clue about technical matters, yet built a system on years-old and completely incapable technology.
Its not as if DCPS hasn't wasted lots of its residents time and mon
Re:Poor Management and Poor Project Management (Score:2)
Re:Poor Management and Poor Project Management (Score:2, Informative)
Apache? (Score:2, Interesting)
Ok...how is this a Windows issue?
Apache is not a plug and play webserver like IIS...or even other repackaged versions of Apache (which go out their way not to show they are really Apache).
Apache is not a webserver for anyone but experienced users -- at least on the administration side. Once you have it set up, its dead simple to use.
This is also one of the reasons on a lot of Windows i
Expect more of this... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Expect more of this... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Expect more of this... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Expect more of this... (Score:2, Insightful)
The problem isn't Microsoft Windows, it is the vendors of the software they are running ON Windows not putting out proper product and then everyone blaming Microsoft. There are shareware app writers who code better for Window
In other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
Dog Bites Man...
And the Sun will probably come up tomorrow... God willing.
Stayed tuned for more "News for Nerds... Stuff that matters."
Funny... (Score:2)
I don't get why you'd want to run an Oracle DB on Windows. Or even a webserver on Windows. When I did Oracle DB programming, the Linux version, on the same hardware, ran a ton faster.....
Wow, that comment is pretty sad.... (Score:2)
"Through our RESEARCH"? Heh, some research. The last time I installed Apache for Windows, is said that Windows support was limited in both the README file and the online documentation page.
If this incompetent IT staff can't read the damn README file before installing a product t
Don't worry, the district is on top of it (Score:5, Interesting)
Meria J. Carstarphen, the chief accountability officer, said that D.C. STARS has great potential and that some of the glitches are attributable to long-standing problems with the city's technology infrastructure.
I think that tells you something about the structure of the DC school district. A chief accountability officer? WTF? Is this because the other O-level folks don't have to practice accountability, or is it because they're simply used to having to defend themselves against charges of incompetence?
They've frequently had problems getting the school year to start on time. Back when I lived in DC, it was because of asbestos in the buildings, but there have been other reasons.
The city government as a whole has been a joke for as long as anyone can remember, so it's probably unfair to blame the school district alone. But somehow this late discovery that Apache really doesn't work best with Windows doesn't surprise me, given the source.
How much time and money? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How much time and money? (Score:4, Interesting)
That level of incompetence is barely par for the course.
Frankly I think the real function of the DC city government is sort of a sink for dangerously incompetent quasi-governmental professionals. They come there for the promise of power, and stay for whatever small fiefdom they can build up, plus the near impossibility of ever being fired.
On the bright side, just think of how much damage they might be doing if they were actually running around in the real world. I'm just glad every day that they all seem to stay there and out of my company. (Not that we don't have any numbskulls, just none quite that egregious.) Think of the federal dollars as being spent on a sort of "intellectual pollution control."
Schools need to change their mindset (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Schools need to change their mindset (Score:2)
And how much does this cost for the site? How much more could be spent on quality infrastructure if this was not necessary?
Or at least have a few Linux systems for educational use (sure, MS Office is dominant now, but look at the overall trends).
more info please (Score:5, Insightful)
they are running apache on windows I guess then? And that's the problem? Why are they running windows on "Unix Hardware"? What is "Unix hardware"? I can only assume they mean a Sun box? I didn't know Windows had a sparc version! I bet that's really awesome!
Anyway, from reading the article I get the impression that neither the interviewer nor the people interviewed have enough technical background to describe the problems accurately, much less fix them. The people interviewed are all managers who probably don't know the difference between c++ and VB, couldn't tell you what an OS actually is, or understand the difference between hardware and software (apparently).
In short, the story is that some managers who don't understand technology and were trying to deploy an apparently advanced web service for an entire school district never bothered to read the documentation of the software they were deploying, and then ran into trouble... I guess that's interesting, or news, or something..
Re:more info please (Score:3, Informative)
Other OS's (Score:4, Interesting)
Apache has only limited support for Windows, but still, Apache is a bitch to configure for any platform. And ORACLE? Look, Oracle is a problem in itself. But adding Apache, Windows, UNIX hardware, and then expecting a proprietary software solution (D.C. Stars) to perform is not Windows fault.
Windows is a lot of things. It is slow, it is insecure, but it cannot be blamed for errors in an untested software solution running on a proprietary DB solution with a webserver that does not support the Windows platform.
*nix zealots - thats the truth. I use Ubuntu at home, but i can appreciate a falllacy when I see one.
Re:Other OS's (Score:2)
Apache has only limited support for Windows, but still, Apache is a bitch to configure for any platform.
I think it can. Where does the the complexity lie? Its in the threading more than anything else. There is, in fact, a standard for such things. It's called Posix. Windows doesn't support it. At this
One has to wonder about this architechture (Score:2)
Re:One has to wonder about this architechture (Score:2)
Re:One has to wonder about this architechture (Score:3, Interesting)
Why does using Windows necessitate IIS? If Windows and Apache is a problem, please don't tell my systems. My Windows/Apache/SOAP CGI/MSSQL have been running flawlessly for years. I'd hate to think they're incompatible.
From my experience, Apache's 'experimental' is like Google's 'beta'.
Re:One has to wonder about this architechture (Score:2)
Re:One has to wonder about this architechture (Score:2)
- Windows is easy to use.
- I've heard this apache thing is better than ISS.
- Let's use apache on Windows!
Having attended DC public schools... (Score:4, Funny)
Reality Check (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Reality Check (Score:3, Insightful)
Windows incompatibility? (Score:2)
Re:Windows incompatibility? (Score:5, Funny)
Windows is ALWAYS the problem.
better than giving users shite (Score:2)
No matter how easy it is to get the initial set up going, getting the final product working is still hard work. Anyone who produce a final decent product can usually fi
It's windows fault...? (Score:2, Insightful)
This looks more like a problem with bad software than with the underlying operating system. The article doesn't list any actual problem th
Re:It's windows fault...? (Score:2)
GJC
What a worthless article. (Score:2, Insightful)
Good job getting windows to work on "Unix Hardware", I never thought that was possible.
In fact, through our research the last few days, we have found an advisory on the Apache website that states, 'Please note that at this time, Windows support is entirely experimental and is recommended only for experienced users.' The Apache Group does not guarantee that the software
Re:What a worthless article. (Score:2)
Maybe they're running NT4 on an Alpha?
A misleading title... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's pretty pathetic that leading Linux evangelists have to go this far to come up with an anti-Windows story, but it should make Microsoft feel better that they do.
Re:A misleading title... (Score:3, Insightful)
Password for washington post (Score:2)
Leave it to Slashdot.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hold on a sec (Score:4, Insightful)
Some people pointing out that this is essentially not a Windows problem but a management/sysadmin/apache problem, and some others saying "look at all the Linux zealots!"
Linux zealots? Where?
Sure, the story poster may not have seen clearly what was going on, but then again, the article was written by the ignorant interviewing the ignorant, so who can blame them for having the wrong opinion.
I'm sick and tired of people trolling on the biases of the Slashdot crowd, only to have the highest moderated posts betray the fact that they are really just speaking of their own biases.
dumbness all around. (Score:5, Insightful)
The headline should read... (Score:3, Insightful)
I have 3 words for this article:
WAKE UP EDITORS.
It clearly states Windows isn't at fault, so WHY must you put this 'Windows causes all problems, no matter what the article REALLY says' spin on everything AS OFTEN as you can? Grow up, and get some journalistic integrity.
Found It! (Score:4, Informative)
Here's http://dcstars.k12.dc.us:50825/ [k12.dc.us] the home page.
Here http://www.aalsolutions.com/7_esis/tech.asp [aalsolutions.com] is the technical specs of the eSIS system from the company who developed it, AAL.
As you can see, supposedly it works with everything - Windows, Mac, UNIX, whatever. A three-tier system.
I got sidetracked in my search because I found a document that referenced IBM, so I thought they developed it. Nope - their Student Information Practice consultants were apparently contracted for implementation assistance only.
Re:I'm betting .... (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course the fact that almost all PC's come with Windows installed doesn't help the problem either. At least the other OS's now have passable support for most hardware as well as a somewhat competitive application library now.
Re:Typical (Score:2)
perhaps some new users who happen to stumble onto this site will hear about news that they never would normally hear.
pro-people, anti-corporation.
if they cannot stay in business through ethical behavior, then they will be brought down.
corporations only exist at the plesaure of the public. that they make money is the way they stay in existence. and the way they make that money determines the wrath or lack of from the public.
the public at large has no clue what microsoft is up to or wh
Re:So what's Apache's problem? (Score:3, Informative)
Besides, you shouldn't run a production web server on Windows unless you have a real need for it (ASP.Net comes to mind, and even then there are ways to
Re:So what's Apache's problem? (Score:2)
Their problem is somewhere between the ears, whether it's mismanagement, lackluster technical people, miscommunication, or some combination thereof.
Re: So what's Apache's problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How Appropriate (Score:2)
Re:You fight like a Cow (orker) (Score:2)
<span> is a tag that surrounds some text within a block, so that you can give it an id attribute. This is *VERY HANDY* for CSS, as this means that you can do a <span id="code"> around a block of code, and apply some CSS for code to it.
Re:Marion to the rescue! (Score:2)
Re:Parent post is TROLL (Score:2)