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Microsoft Media

Fate of High-Def DVD up to Microsoft? 333

Posted by ScuttleMonkey from the gonna-get-ugly dept.
BlackMesaResearchFac writes "EE Times is reporting that Microsoft may have chosen a side in the ongoing optical disk war. From the article: 'several industry sources last week told EE Times that Microsoft is muscling into the optical-disk fray by leveraging its operating-system clout to bundle HD-DVD within Vista, the company's next-generation OS. There is also talk that the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives -- in the form "coupons" -- to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD. Such coupons would provide "credits" or "memos" for each PC that is sold with HD-DVD inside.'"
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Fate of High-Def DVD up to Microsoft? More

Fate of High-Def DVD up to Microsoft?

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  • Anti Competitive (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:29PM (#14353394) Homepage Journal

    There is also talk that the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives -- in the form "coupons" -- to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD. Such coupons would provide "credits" or "memos" for each PC that is sold with HD-DVD inside.'"

    I thought this was deemed illegal in the past. IIRC Microsoft was busted for kickback payments to system vendors who did their bidding, i.e. wouldn't bundle competing products on Windows installed computers. A "Coupon" wouldn't make it any different, it's an anti-competitive practice.

    In October, when Microsoft and Intel Corp. announced their support for HD-DVD, Weber warned of "legal implications, if Microsoft is using its dominance in the operating system market -- virtually a monopoly -- to play favorites and hurt the competition" (see www.eet.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleI D=171202192 [eet.com]).
    With good reason.
    Among familiar Microsoft tactics is to offer incentives -- promotions, discounts and credits -- to PC OEMs. If a certain percentage of an OEM's systems use Windows, Microsoft typically chips in on advertising campaigns and co-sponsors promotional events. When a PC manufacturer is living on a 3 percent margin, such market-development payments or volume-discount rebates can be make-or-break factors. Some industry observers have termed these in-kind subsidies from Microsoft "the heroin of the PC industry."
    Vendors who have this incentive will not diminish their potential revenue by giving consumers a choice.

    This effectively puts Microsoft's foot firmly in the door on writing the DRM, too. Of course, with their track record that means it'll be either easily cracked and/or your DVD player will become infested with worms and virii.

    Expect it to go to court after it is fait accompli.

    it's a new hope of return of the revenge of the menacing phantom clone empire striking back all over again.
    "If I had time and a hammer, I'd track down every blue hd ray dvd and smash it"

    • Re:Anti Competitive (Score:5, Insightful)

      by garcia ( 6573 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:31PM (#14353409)
      This effectively puts Microsoft's foot firmly in the door on writing the DRM, too. Of course, with their track record that means it'll be either easily cracked and/or your DVD player will become infested with worms and virii.

      It effectively attempts to curb Sony's console dominance by making Blu-Ray next to worthless. This is the sole reason they are doing it and by leveraging their weight against PC makers, etc to attempt to harm their competition in a completely different market is the worst of it all.

      • Sony Not Toothless (Score:3, Interesting)

        by ackthpt ( 218170 ) *
        It effectively attempts to curb Sony's console dominance by making Blu-Ray next to worthless. This is the sole reason they are doing it and by leveraging their weight against PC makers, etc to attempt to harm their competition in a completely different market is the worst of it all.

        Sony certainly isn't toothless. As with the tiny dvd's for the PSP evidenced, they do have a large catalog of music and movie content they can release on their prefered media standard.

        The question is, particularly after MS-NB

      • Re:Anti Competitive (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        I don't see how this is any different from what Sony is trying to do. They are going to use their dominance in the console market to try to make Blu-Ray the defacto standard. Microsoft is backing HD-DVD for the same reason. Both are equally good or bad. There is no difference.

        • Re:Anti Competitive (Score:5, Insightful)

          by garcia ( 6573 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:43PM (#14353472)
          Microsoft is backing HD-DVD for the same reason. Both are equally good or bad. There is no difference.

          While I'm sure there are backroom dealings going on w/Sony and various hardware vendors, I don't see any reports (yet) of them giving coupons and using anti-competitive tactics (which Microsoft has already been found guilty of doing in numerous arenas across the globe) to gain more marketshare for a single standard.

          Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default if they want to remain the most useful OS. They shouldn't be playing games (pun, sorry) to try and gain more support for their console's marketshare.

          • Re:Anti Competitive (Score:5, Insightful)

            by CaymanIslandCarpedie ( 868408 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @04:05PM (#14353605) Journal
            Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default

            I have a feeling it isn't that hardware that is the issue (just my speculation). But doesn't Blu-Ray use java for its interactive content system? We all know the fights and head-aches about can MS include a jvm? Is MS forced to include a jvm? What version does it have to be? etc, etc, etc? With HD-DVD I belive the interactive content is run my a MS system iHD so obviously its pretty easy for them to support. Now they don't like Sony much I guess and I'm sure that plays into it, but as far as what they OS supports I think its more of a software issue than a hardware issue.
            • Microsoft's recent deal with Sun Microsystems has opened things up so that Microsoft can play with Java again. To what degree, I'm not sure, but I believe they can use the name "Java" once more...

          • Re:Anti Competitive (Score:2, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward
            While I'm sure there are backroom dealings going on w/Sony and various hardware vendors, I don't see any reports (yet) of them giving coupons and using anti-competitive tactics (which Microsoft has already been found guilty of doing in numerous arenas across the globe) to gain more marketshare for a single standard.

            Sony doesn't have to resort to this because they developed both Blu-Ray and the PS3. They don't have to bribe themselves to include it. I don't want to defend Microsoft's tactics but I can un

            • Re:Anti Competitive (Score:3, Interesting)

              by drinkypoo ( 153816 )

              It will be supported the same way that optical drives are supported now. The software will come with the drive. They are not preventing Blu-Ray from working in Windows, they are simply trying to encourage vendors to include HD-DVD drives in their systems.

              This is not the way optical drives are supported now, and it hasn't been since DOS and Windows 3.x. All the current optical drives are supported by an ATAPI driver. They don't come with a driver, because they implement a standard.

              • This is not the way optical drives are supported now, and it hasn't been since DOS and Windows 3.x.

                Pass me some of that holiday nog! Optical drives weren't standardized until Windows98 hit the scene.
          • Microsoft *should* be supporting ALL hardware on their OS by default

            Just like OS 10? Oh, wait..
        • There are several big differences. For one, Sony doesn't have a monopoly on the console market the way that Microsoft does on the OS market. Consoles churn by nature, and there is no guarantee that the PS3 will even be a contender. By comparison, Windows Vista's success is as sure as death and taxes.

          Second, Sony isn't forcing other people to include Blue-Ray in their devices. Microsoft has the muscle to throw around promotions and bundle discounts. That's a nice way of saying that they're going to char

      • Umm, I don't know where this article gets the idea that microsoft may have chosen a side. Blu-Ray uses Java. Let me spell that out for everyone: cross-platform, not .NET, not media tech. owned by MS. Bill himself is reported to have been shouting about that in Sony's offices.

        So, while MS may well want to crush PS3, I think we need to remember that consoles are probably just a way of getting MS and their Media ownership sold to the next generation. What bill cares about is owning the tools that run the

      • Or that much harder to crack? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by ImaLamer ( 260199 ) <john.lamar@gma[ ]com ['il.' in gap]> on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @04:43PM (#14353842) Homepage Journal
        It effectively attempts to curb Sony's console dominance by making Blu-Ray next to worthless.

        It seems to me that if Sony goes with Blu-Ray and all the PC's out in the wild won't have it, it will be harder to copy their games. Mod chips always come out, encryption is cracked, but not being able to produce discs with the proper format/standard will halt copying efforts.

        Of course it isn't the end all solution to piracy. Every SEGA Dreamcast game out has been copied and distributed, but you had to download the game (1+ Gigabyte) through a serial cable first. Using a proprietary technology kept people from renting games just to copy them. Assuming that the PS3 doesn't allow you to rip a game and upload it through the controller/USB/Firewire ports and that you can't fit a PS3 game on a DVD-R then they have got a winner.

        Just imagine it another way: Protocol dead zones.

        I had to create an network for a school that kept teacher's workstation and servers separate from the rest of the network. No student was allowed to even attempt a log in. The easiest way to do this was to use Novell Netware 6 (eDirectory) and IPX/SPX for all teacher/back-end communications. No student workstations were supplied with the drivers to use IPX (no student could install drivers, software, etc). Even if they had a rouge Linux install with IPX ready to go, let's say, the switch had IPX/SPX routing disabled for those ports. The only switch ports that would transmit IPX were the ones we told it to (of course all switches are kept in locked cabinets and so forth).

        Same theory here for Blu-Ray. If the only place it is ever seen is the PS3 then Microsoft helped the PS3 become more "pirate-proof". (Of course, it could be argued that no PS3 game piracy may hurt Sony and so forth...)

        Besides, who is the consumer electronics giant here, Sony or Microsoft?
    • Of course, with their track record that means it'll be either easily cracked and/or your DVD player will become infested with worms and virii.

      Expect it to go to court after it is fait accompli.

      How can you use "fait accompli" properly, yet not know the plural of "virus" is "viruses"?
      • How can you use "fait accompli" properly, yet not know the plural of "virus" is "viruses"?

        Wordplay has long been a trait of the hacker community, dating back 40 years or more. "Virii" obviously has valid meaning, or you wouldn't have been able to understand it, let alone supply an alternate spelling for it. Virii entered the hacker argot well over ten years ago -- your whining won't eliminate it.

        Give the whole "O woe are we! Our poor, precious language is under attack from heathens who mock the very L

    • It's interesting to see what side Apple will take? Are they going the Intel standard? Thinking differently (like ADB or firewire)? Or just not thinking at all.
    • This is a different environment than the one that got Microsoft a slap on the wrist.

      It's reasonable to suppose that the current Administration's view of anti-competitive does not include MS any more.

      Please remember the main priorities of gov't is to:

      1. Privatize pretty much everything. (e.g. there's no "public good" other than a few monuments and living museums like Yellowstone/Yosemite)

      2. Create wealth. If anti-competitive behavior creates wealth then it's okay. Nevermind whatever history/regulations ar

  • Obligatory Office Space (Score:4, Funny)

    by AlienGoods ( 928169 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:31PM (#14353406)
    Did you get the memo?

  • Monopoly anybody? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by sterno ( 16320 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:31PM (#14353408) Homepage
    Yeah this is a clear cut case of them using their monopoly position to undercut Sony. A part of Sony's big gamble on the PS3 is that they can establish the market dominance of BluRay for HD media. What we are witnessing here is Microsoft's counter move, using their dominance of desktops to for HD-DVD as the standard.
  • Now, granted, I don't know much about how standards like these are developed, but shouldn't this sort of far-reaching decision with industry-wide implications not be left up to one entity? Especially one with such a vested interest in its outcome, such as Microsoft?

    At the same time, I sort of wonder if maybe it's better to have one source for specifications for a technology, to avoid the kind of industry war that consumed DVD+/-R's development.

    • Re:Who's behind the curtain? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by garcia ( 6573 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:39PM (#14353442)
      Now, granted, I don't know much about how standards like these are developed, but shouldn't this sort of far-reaching decision with industry-wide implications not be left up to one entity? Especially one with such a vested interest in its outcome, such as Microsoft?

      It isn't up to Microsoft. They are just "making an offer you can't refuse." By using their dominance in the PC market as leverage they are going to attempt to cut Sony out of the "next-gen" console market before they even come out of the gate.

      Microsoft fucked up severely by not putting foo-format HD DVD in their console BEFORE its release like Sony apparently wants to do. So, to recover from that folly, they are trying to dominate the market BEFORE Sony can because they know that the 360 will not be able to compete if the PS3 has multiples of storage capacity built in.

      Ultimately it will be up to the market but Microsoft will do whatever they can to make sure they have every unfair advantage they can.
      • "[...]"Sony can because they know that the 360 will not be able to compete if the PS3 has multiples of storage capacity built in."

        I'm not sure I follow... Why should the extra capacity of Blu-Ray in the PS3 matter much over the standard DVD drive in the 360? We're talking about 25GB vs 8GB... how many games do you expect to consume over 8GB of space? I think Sony is taking a pretty serious risk with using new and unproven technology in the PS3 like this. Add in that it is almost certainly more expensive tha
      • By using their dominance in the PC market as leverage they are going to attempt to cut Sony out of the "next-gen" console market before they even come out of the gate.

        You expect Vista to be a factor before Sony sells 10 million PS3's next spring and summer? I'll take PS3 in that race any day.

        If HD-DVD or Blu-ray wants to be the media of choice on the desktop just make any DRM that gets tacked on as inocuous as possible. I suspect that one of the reasons the iPod was able to get traction in its early incarna

    • How long before players doing Blu-ray/HD-DVD? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by drasfr ( 219085 ) <revedemoi&gmail,com> on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @04:45PM (#14353857)
      I mean, yes, how long before we see players that can do both?

      After all... when DVD-Rs came out, and DVD+R. No one was doing both, suddently (I don't remember the history in detail, who), but someone came out (sony?) with a player that was doing both...

      and now, what? Well, don't they all do both? or all? DVD-R/+R/-RW/+RW? It's been a while since I have seen a player/recorder that do only one format...

      Why can't the same thing happen for Blu-Ray/HD-DVD?

      Sure it is a license thing... like it was for DVDs... You pay? You got the right to do it. Is there anything in the agreements they have that will prevent both format to co-exist in the same device? I doubt...

      Combo HR-DVD/Blu-ray. Sure it might be expensive at first. The technology seems to be quite different for both format. But we have seen more difficult things happen

      Any bet on this? When?

  • Let's play Monopoly (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Matt Perry ( 793115 ) <perry DOT matt54 AT yahoo DOT com> on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:35PM (#14353424)
    ...bundle HD-DVD within Vista... the software giant may be planning to offer cash incentives -- in the form "coupons" -- to system vendors or retailers if they agree to support HD-DVD.
    Putting that monopoly to use again, I see. Wasn't there supposed to be a court or someone overseeing them to prevent just such abuses?
    • This isn't really so much putting their monopoly to use as much as it is putting their barrels and barrels of cash into play. Heavy handed, but exactly illegal.
    • Why is it insightful to point out that MS is using market share to their advantage? That's what big companies do - just as small companies use their advantages (nimbleness in the market, aura of being elite, etc). The size of a company is just another asset to be used in business maneuvers. Whether or not its monoplistic is another question.

      If MS were producing the HD-DVDs and had a monopolistic stake in the media format marketplace, then it would be monopolistic. But MS suplies neither the software nor
    • As I remember it, Windows XP was at the threshold of new technologies. I think that's right around the time USB 2.0 was coming out and the ability for home users to burn DVD's...

      Microsoft favored DVD-ram as its DVD format and Firewire over USB 2.0. We all see how much effect they had on those outcomes.

      Hardware makers have more say. What the OS supports out of box is almost irrevalent. What ever hardware you purchase is going to usually have drivers and software for at least Windows anyway. There are m

  • Ugh (Score:3, Insightful)

    by commo1 ( 709770 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:35PM (#14353428)
    I'm just as big a fan of HD over Blu-Ray as anyone, but cash incentives and coupons? From Microsoft? (OK, any big software monopoly with holds on the OS market..... wait... never mind). This is not right and this is not fair.

  • It's all about the Java (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Call Me Black Cloud ( 616282 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:38PM (#14353436)

    Blu-Ray players will all come with a Java VM inside, and the interactive content on the discs will be in Java. MS developed the competing environment for interactive content, iHD, with Disney (and Toshiba, I believe). MS has plans to include iHD support with Vista.

    So on one side you have Sun and Sony (which supports Blu-Ray) and on the other you have Microsoft and Intel. It's really not surprising the companies have lined up this way. There are feature differences as well that probably come into play, but I wouldn't expect MS to support the format that will ship with the PS3.
    • Someone said this [slashdot.org] almost 2 weeks ago in the Blu-ray topic.
    • I think a lot of this has to do with Microsoft being bitten before wrt Java. The last time they tried to "embrace and extend" it, they were greeted with a lawsuit from Sun. I can't imagine they want to support anything even associated with Java anymore. This is also one of the reasons they developed C#/dotNet. So they could do Java-like things without relying on Java and having to worry about Sun suing them whenever they stepped outside of Sun's boundaries.

    • Re:It's all about the Java (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Monkey ( 795756 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @04:17PM (#14353678)
      This puts an interesting spin on the issue. Who is more evil? On the one hand we have Sony and it's DRM CD's, and a Java environment that just might be a tool of DRM and spyware. On the other hand we have Microsoft (aka The Borg), traditionally against anything OSS, a company that might use the new DVD standard to shove around the OSS community...Again, just two maybes, and just speculation, but it could be very bad for us(slashdoters) either way.
      • > Who is more evil?

        Ouch... you are hurting my simple decision making process. Despite whatever the groupthink de jour is, could it be that any massive corporate entity that makes more money than some nations and crosses international boundaries has the power and incentive to do 'evil' things in it's own self-interest?

        Since these entities can shift production and decision making processes between legal and economic jurisdictions at will, they are pretty much immune to any legal or economic attempts to con
    • If what you say is true (unverified by /me), then you have mentioned the differentiating factor that will give the battle to HD-DVD/MS/etc.... Disney.

      Consumers ultimately don't care what the format is or which Evil Corporation's pockets they fill. What they do care about is whether Timmy can play the new Winnie-the-Pooh game or Susie can print her Disney Princesses coloring pages. If these new titles and the re-re-re-release of Sleeping Beauty is only on HD-DVD then people will make sure they have the

    • Re:It's all about the Java (Score:4, Insightful)

      by The Lynxpro ( 657990 ) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [orpxnyl]> on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @06:17PM (#14354358)
      "So on one side you have Sun and Sony (which supports Blu-Ray) and on the other you have Microsoft and Intel."

      Don't forget Matsushita (Panasonic) and Apple are both on the Blu-Ray side... Although it would be in Apple's best interest to put out the feelers to the HD-DVD camp if only to bring Sony back to the table on ditching the Sony Connect online store in favor of a broad-based licensing agreement that would make iTunes the standard for the Playstation3, the PSP, all the Walkmans, and Sony Vaio computers. Not only would Apple get some serious cash, but it would also reduce the chance of an anti-trust complaint that Apple has monopolized the iPod/iTunes combo by opening the platform up to a competitor.

  • Not within Microsoft's power (Score:3, Informative)

    by wombatmobile ( 623057 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:38PM (#14353440)

    So what? Microsoft doesn't sell disks, it sells software. Compare this to vendors that sell entertainment content such as films and Microsoft's influence on the space is not significant.

    But can't Microsoft dictate terms through choosing to support the reading of data from certain hardware formats only in its software?

    Again no. Not if their customers want another format supported. TFA even points out that Microsoft can't control its OEMs behaviour:

    Dell Inc., for its part, has no intention of switching its support from Blu-ray, Brian Zucker, a Dell technology strategist who sits on the Blu-Ray DVD committee, told EE Times. "The only reasons we would make a change would be if we saw significant customer demand not to back the format we have been working on," he added.

    If Dell wants support for X, its status as the seller of 20% of Microsoft's operating sytems software units gives it enough clout to require Microsoft to provide support.

    Or Dell could add its own support.

  • DOJ Settlement violation (Score:5, Informative)

    by NullProg ( 70833 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:42PM (#14353459) Homepage Journal
    IANAL but from the article here http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2001/November/01_at_56 9.htm [usdoj.gov]


      The settlement reached today accomplishes this by:

            * creating the opportunity for independent software vendors to develop products that will be competitive with Microsoft's middleware products on a function-by-function basis;
            * giving computer manufacturers the flexibility to contract with competing software developers and place their middleware products on Microsoft's operating system;
            * preventing retaliation against computer manufacturers, software developers, and other industry participants who choose to develop or use competing middleware products; and
            * ensuring full compliance with the proposed Final Judgment and providing for swift resolution of technical disputes.


    Microsoft seems to be in violation of resolution two. They are also prohibited from entering exclusive agreements.

    Enjoy,

    • Re:DOJ Settlement violation (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Bogtha ( 906264 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:57PM (#14353559)

      You missed the most important bit:

      The proposed Final Judgment will be in effect for a five year period and may be extended for an additional two-year period if the Court finds that Microsoft has engaged in multiple violations of the proposed Final Judgment.

      So as long as Microsoft holds off on the kickbacks until November 2006, they are safe. From Wikipedia:

      The currently scheduled release of the full version of Windows Vista is late 2006.

      What an amazing coincidence.

    • No violation (Score:3, Insightful)

      by everphilski ( 877346 )
      * giving computer manufacturers the flexibility to contract with competing software developers and place their middleware products on Microsoft's operating system;

      They are giving incentives to HD-DVD over BlueRay, not banning BlueRay development. There is a difference between incentives and Microsoft saying no.

      -everphilski-
      • Microsoft are leveraging their monopoly to promote one format over another. One will be supported, the other (probably) not. Sure, they're not preventing the development, but they are retaliating in the sense of destroying any competitive advantage a rival format would have. It's indirect, sure. It's not "direct" retaliation, sure. It demonstrates a passive-aggressive streak in Microsoft, sure.

        There are other ways and means Microsoft could retaliate without being too obvious. Periodically updating underlyin

  • Wrong (Score:2, Insightful)

    by the computer guy nex ( 916959 )
    "Microsoft is considering HD-DVD for the next hardware revision of the XBOX 360"

    Microsoft has said no to HD-DVD inside the 360 [theregister.co.uk].

    Reason? Games with hi-res textures have been available for under 9 gigs for awhile now on a PC. No game for this console will require the ~45gig capacity.

    Microsoft is pro HD-DVD due to the DRM located within Blu-Ray. This is one isntance where we should take sides with the monopoly. HD-DVD's are the better solution for the customer.
    • Note that it's a self fulfilling prophecy: because no HD-DVD will be available, no one is going to make a game with 45 gigs of textures. Whereas they certainly would if HD-DVD was shipped standard.
      • Note that it's a self fulfilling prophecy: because no HD-DVD will be available, no one is going to make a game with 45 gigs of textures. Whereas they certainly would if HD-DVD was shipped standard.

        Are you sure? I mean, is the Xbox hardware even able to use that well? Graphics card and RAM memory limitations, etc. If this puts an upper cap on detail levels on the loaded textures, all that remains is using all that storage for textures in today's resolutions, but instead having tons of textures. But in that c
        • Game devs are already way past this. Often by the time a game ships, they'll have cut 30 or 40 gig of textures to reduce the number of dvds they ship on. They also ship lower quality textures rather than full detail textures not because the system couldn't render them, but because it would blow up the storage requirements. Often game devs have source art at 4 or 16x the resolution that eventually ships, which could be rendered just fine by the hardware but can't fit in the media. Media is a major limita

    • Re:Wrong (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Troed ( 102527 )
      Please explain the DRM differences between HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

      Oh. Really?

      That's what I thought as well.

      (PS: You're wrong about how much room games will require in the next 4-5 years btw)

    • Re:Wrong (Score:3, Insightful)

      by bliSSter138 ( 636922 )

      If you for one second think that Microsoft (let that name rattle in your head for a second before you continue reading), is being altrustic here and has non-DRM consumers' best interests in mind, then you've been under the desk for a bit too long. MS has their own set of plans for DRM; if you haven't been keeping up take a quick look at any recent iteration of Windows Media Player.

      I guarantee the only reason that MS isn't backing Blu-Ray, if it has anything to do with DRM, is because Sony or whomever isn'

      • Exactly. It also explains why there isn't a compatible Windows Media Player for any other Operating System other than Windows.
        If Microsoft were to release a Media Player that is EXACTLY the same across all Operating Systems, then I _might_ believe that they may have our best interests at heart.

        But, they don't and they continue to stifle technological growth.
    • Reason? Games with hi-res textures have been available for under 9 gigs for awhile now on a PC. No game for this console will require the ~45gig capacity.

      I was watching some video on IGN from the GDC (game developers conference) and a number of people actually writing and developing games disagree with you.

      What they talk about is how annoyed they are they have all kinds of room to work with on the PS3, then have to cram said content into the tiny shoe of the DVD for the 360. They are Very Annoyed.

      The long-

    • Microsoft is pro HD-DVD due to the DRM located within Blu-Ray. This is one isntance where we should take sides with the monopoly. HD-DVD's are the better solution for the customer.

      You are very confused. I'm pretty sure Microsoft's decision has nothing to do with DRM, based on the fact that both format use the same DRM, the AACS [wikipedia.org] (Advanced Access Content System.) Consumers lose with either one, but at least with blueray we get superior technology.

  • Who builds consumer players? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:47PM (#14353495)
    Microsoft will have no control over the final result, as they are neither the company that makes the discs consumers buy nor the company that makes the devices people will play the majority of discs on.

    If Microsoft were really serious about HD-DVD they would have delay the 360 launch to include it. From where they sit now the only thing they can do is savage thier own marketshare with a dual console system with some HD-DVD units and some not.

    The war is already over since people will have millions of players by way of PS3 - who will then naturally proceed to buy discs for said players since they have them, and so more discs will be made since more people are buying them in that format.

    Welcome to Betaville Microsoft - population you.

  • Everyone needs to just relax! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gasmonso ( 929871 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:48PM (#14353501) Homepage

    Microsoft is looking at this issue like any other. Sure they may back one or the other but it's not that big of a deal. No matter what format they decide to "support", it's just a driver. If they go with HD-DVD, that means they'll just include that driver on the OS. Who cares?!?! If you buy a Blu-Ray drive, it'll ship with a driver anyways.

    The real concern here is what the movie industry will support and put movies on. And of course DRM is the other big issue. But no matter who the "winner" is, it won't matter for the PC anyways as it will support both.

    http://religiousfreaks.com/ [religiousfreaks.com]
    • Microsoft will not leave Blu-Ray drivers out of the OS' driver collection if Blu-Ray drives all support the same interface, as ATAPI drives do. Even if they don't, they will end up with drivers from vendors with whom they have a driver agreement. Which is pretty much everyone big.
  • When DIVX was crushed it felt like a giant victory. But DIVX only had one company behind it. This time the draconian DRM will have the entire tech industry behind it. And people won't be buying self-destructing media.

    I think we're fucked.

    If people actually stick with their DVD drives and let HD-DVD and BluRay both die on the vine, maybe some tech companies will do the right thing. But it's an extremely long shot.

    • Re:So much momentum. Wonder if DIVX can happen aga (Score:4, Interesting)

      by forkazoo ( 138186 ) <wrosecrans@@@gmail...com> on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @04:09PM (#14353635) Homepage
      When DIVX was crushed it felt like a giant victory. But DIVX only had one company behind it. This time the draconian DRM will have the entire tech industry behind it. And people won't be buying self-destructing media.

      I think we're fucked.

      If people actually stick with their DVD drives and let HD-DVD and BluRay both die on the vine, maybe some tech companies will do the right thing. But it's an extremely long shot.
      I think that with the emerging trend of online distribution, media formats may start to become fairly uninteresting. My only interest in Blu Ray will be as a backup drive. I'll just have a PC plugged into my TV to play content, so I won't need a High-Def set top box media player of any sort. In a few years, we'll all have an iPodHD, or some equivalent to carry around our video.
  • Despite its deep pockets I think Mircosoft's efforts will be in vain.

    Computers with HD DVD or Blu-Ray will be slow in being adopted compared to stand alone players for HDTV sets.

    Consumers will not compare HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on whether they are compatible with some future computer purchase, only on stand-alone player price, availability of new release movies, and blank media price.

    HD-DVD manufactures will have a tough time getting below the $400-$500 entry window that the the PS3 probably represents.

  • No Lord of the Rings and StarWars will decide. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by LWATCDR ( 28044 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @03:56PM (#14353556) Homepage Journal
    The format that they publish Lord of the Rings and StarWars on will be the format that wins. It is about software people. If they publish it in both formats then the cheapest will win.
    • The format that they publish Lord of the Rings and StarWars on will be the format that wins. It is about software people. If they publish it in both formats then the cheapest will win.

      In the larger sense you are right; but those two exact titles alone are not enough to gaurantee one format winning over the other. It will come down to movies but in this case the chicken is coming a little ahead of the egg; as Sony will release the PS3 before many discs are released and people will buy discs because they hav
      • I think those two franchises can guarantee the winning format. The early adopters will pretty much decide who wins this. When you can buy StarWars and LOTR for HighDef I think you will see people buying players and TVs just for those movies. But I could be totally wrong :)
  • Just what are memos and coupons? Sounds like what you, the consumer, gets as a result of your class action suit victory, while the lawyers get actual $$$s.

    Coupons might be discounts on the MSVista price -- or something else altogether. Supposedly this somehow translates into $$$s for the manufacturers.

    Memos? WTF? An Atta-Boy directly from Mr. G. by e-mail? A memo from billg to MSAccounting along the lines of: "Don't bill these people this month. They've been real nice to me."

    Or are these words s

  • a spokesman said, "Microsoft doesn't comment on the details of meetings we've had with our partners."

    Since when?

    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/15/161200 &tid=126&tid=129 [slashdot.org]
    a link in case we forgot about this debate on which one is superior

  • MS or Sony, who is more evil? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SteveXE ( 641833 ) on Wednesday December 28, 2005 @04:18PM (#14353689)
    1st off how is it illegal for Microsoft to promote a piece of hardware they DO NOT EVEN OWN? How does it further their "monopoly"? Next, 2 months ago everyone was crying about Blu-Ray's extreme DRM, and while HD-DVD has DRM as well its not as bad as what Sony is trying to shove down our throats. The difference is today MS is doing something to help the better standard so you all bitch because it must be bad.

    Have we all forgoten about rootkits? Whats worse, MS giving out a freaking coupon or Sony using their DRM to cripple our Blu-Ray players because we tried to watch something they didnt like, or because we took a screw out of the case, or because we lent a friend the latest movie we bought, or because they just damn well feel like it.

    Topic answer is Sony.
  • Microsoft may have chosen a side in the ongoing optical disk war.

    Microsoft is finally choosing sides and going with HD-DVD now? Wow, this is exciting news. Personally, I was left wondering after:

    It was announced (though later dropped) that the 360 would support HD-DVD.

    It was announced from the beginning that HD-DVD's DRM was less restrictive to what Microsoft wanted to do with Vista and thus their platform of choice.

    It was rumoured that Bill Gates shouted out the head of Sony for the restrictive DRM on Blu
  • In other words " since microsoft is a monopoly with a stranglehold on the industry, we will do whatever they say so we dont upset them"

    phffft
  • I have to say I hate the anti-compeditive methods MS is using the wage the NG DVD format war, but I do support their goal of a less restrictive DRM system.

    The thing is I'm afraid they will also try to set up the DRM specificly to make sure OSS operating systems (perhaps even non-windows operating systems) can not play back or use HD-DVD's.

    Talk about the lesser of two evils!!

  • No (Score:2)

    by hrieke ( 126185 )
    If Sony goes one way and MS goes another, then Sony has a very strong selling point to the movie companies- "Look, our product DOES NOT PLAY on the PC, thus is an added level of security. It's that much harder ripe the content and post on the internet."
    Like tennis, pool or politics- it's all in the spin.

  • The fate of HD-DVD is most definitely not up to Microsoft, it is up to the market. With any luck, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray both will be clobbered by the existing DVD market, thus taking DRM with them.

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