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UK Copyright Under Fire Again 211

stupid_is writes "Following on from the story on the Gower Report in the UK, a host of musicians (over 4,500 of them, including poor, starving stars such as U2, Paul McCartney and Peter Gabriel) have taken out a big ad in the FT to back the call for an extension to copyright in the UK. Allegedly, that's what the British public wants — although the survey seems to be asking a different, rather biased, question." From the article: "A spokesman for the Open Rights Group, which campaigns for greater digital rights, said: 'The big music firms have done a good job of persuading some artists to sign up to this but anyone who reads the Gowers review will see it demolishes the arguments for extension. An awful lot of content creators are not represented by this and recognise an extension will do nothing for creativity and nothing for the public.'"
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UK Copyright Under Fire Again

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  • by Maxo-Texas ( 864189 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @12:49PM (#17164334)

    Copyright was instituted for society so work would be created. It was not instituted for the creators. It was instituted to encourage them to create for society. I do not see any evidence that creators are boycotting and refusing to create new works because they "only" have copyright for 50 years.
    • by nine-times ( 778537 ) <nine.times@gmail.com> on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:15PM (#17164692) Homepage

      It's not even to encourage the artists to create. Never, during the whole of human history, has there been difficulty in getting people to participate in creative works. There are going to be people who want to make music, paintings, movies, and books, even if there's no reward but fame.

      The purpose is to make it economically feasible to publish works. Without copyright protection, the large investment to bring a work to market would not have been worth it, considering that someone else could simply copy that work and sell it if it actually became popular enough to cover your investment. Therefore, record companies and book publishers would not have been able to make a profit from funding new works.

      Therefore, as the technology improves and the price of development and distribution costs come down, and it becomes cheaper to bring a work to market, it follows naturally that we should become less strict on copyright protections. Should development costs, production costs, and distribution costs ever reach the point where they're free, then it probably means that we'll have reached the point where IP protection is completely obsolete.

      • by Dachannien ( 617929 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:23PM (#17164810)
        I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. The quality of work has probably increased as a result of copyright (okay, if you ignore the past ten years' worth of music...), so there's likely some minimum copyright term needed to maintain that level of creative motivation, beyond which the important motivating factor is protecting the credit given to the original author.

        However, I do agree that copyright terms have been severely extended beyond that minimum (anything beyond the life of the creator comes to mind). In fact, copyright terms are so long now that creative efforts are hindered, by blocking the creativity of people who want to make derivative works or even protect the public existence of original works.
        • And oddly, as the quality increases and the market size increases, then the quality declines since so much money is at stake that the backers only want to go with "safe" bets.
        • The quality of work has probably increased as a result of copyright?

          I would be amazed if you could come up with evidence of that. Take all the works that existed before copyrights, and all those released directly to public domain (or a creative-commons/open-source license), and compare them to those which have been copyrighted, in terms of quality?

          People want to be brilliant artists and rock stars. They want to write the great American novel. You don't need a motivating factor beyond that. Where the

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by C0rinthian ( 770164 )

            I would be amazed if you could come up with evidence of that. Take all the works that existed before copyrights, and all those released directly to public domain (or a creative-commons/open-source license), and compare them to those which have been copyrighted, in terms of quality?

            You are ignoring the context these works were created in. In the example of music, people tend to mention that Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc. had no copyright protection. Why would they need protection if a vast majority of the population had no means to copy their work? The only way to hear a Bach performance was to go listen to him perform, or find someone who was able to play his works at an equal level. Nowadays, you can download high quality recordings in seconds.

            In the past, creators had natural

            • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

              by MrHanky ( 141717 )
              Bach (I suppose you mean Johann Sebastian; there were several others) was an organist and a composer, and hardly the best performer of his solo violin and orchestral works. His notes could be published, and re-published by pirates. Many works were; most of Shakespeare's dramas were published by pirates even years before there was a legit version, by people who memorised or shorthanded the plays and wrote them down afterwards. Those were the "cam" versions of the days. Since proper publishing was a more time
          • Do you really think that what he would have written would be so immensely incredible that we should hold up society and destroy people's lives because someone might download an MP3?

            Probably not, but this kind of argument ignores the culpability of the person who downloaded the file. They very well knew, or should have known, the consequences of their actions but they did it anyway. It also ignores that fact that downloading that MP3 is directly opposed to the content creator's wishes, as evidenced by the fact that he chose to sign a distribution contract with an **AA company. If we are actualy concerned about protecting the artist rather than securing free content for ourselves it

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Blue Stone ( 582566 )
      > Copyright was instituted for society so work would be created.

      As I understand it, originally, copyright was a monopoly handed out by the King, usually in return for money.
      This is the problem - although there have been laudable attempts to bend 'intellectual monopolies' to the benefit of society (limited times for the advancement... etc,) at root, copyright is about restricting dissemination of culture/creativity for the benefit of a few (the monopoly holder of that creative expression): the noble
      • by mabhatter654 ( 561290 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:47PM (#17165162)
        Exactly!! The original term "copyright" was "Copy Wright".. it was the king's authorization to OWN, POSSESS, or even USE a printing press. You had to promise that you'd use your new found press responsibly, not to undermine the king's power. It was a "king sanctioned" thing... like the royal baker or a knight.

        It was the Americans that shifted the idea of copyright as something ANYBODY could get for a small price per document. It was a radical then as GPL is now.. for about the same reasons.

        American's seem to forget Congress is FORBIDDEN to grant "titles of Nobility"... that doesn't just mean Congress can't call somebody "King" or we have to kick a girl out because she marries a REAL prince. A title of "nobility" is something that endures.. you pass on or inherit. Something "abstract" like a knight in service to a queen, or a lord over land... "IP" as a concept is beginning to fall into a "title of nobility" status. Only this time it's not one person that gets the "title" it's a corporation. YUCK! That makes it worse because the corporation never actually DIES. It makes the executives of the RIAA and MPAA like the religious priest class in other cultures. Only they can spread knowledge, entertainment, and even legal documents of the govt because of their "IP" property. Only they have the ability to protect "IP" property.. so you have to pay "fealty" and "prostration" to them to be heard.... that's 100% Un-American!

    • by eldavojohn ( 898314 ) * <eldavojohnNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:21PM (#17164770) Journal
      No, it's not logical they should feel this way.

      I once considered myself a bass player. At bars we would play songs & work 50% originals with 50% covers. We were pretty much illegally performing songs (Don't Let Me Down by The Beatls, Karma Police by Radiohead, Yellow by Coldplay, The Door by The Turin Brakes, etc.). Now, why do we do this? It pleases the crows and shows them that we like their music and that if they listen to ours hopefully they see the influence and elements. Yes, every band borrows these things--you can't deny it.

      It doesn't make any sense that Sir Paul should say this. Look at the line up of The Beatles' first album [wikipedia.org]:
      • 1. "I Saw Her Standing There" - 2:55
      • 2. "Misery" - 1:50
      • 3. "Anna (Go to Him)" (Arthur Alexander) - 2:57
      • 4. "Chains" (Gerry Goffin/Carole King) - 2:26
      • 5. "Boys" (Luther Dixon/Wes Farrell) - 2:27
      • 6. "Ask Me Why" - 2:27
      • 7. "Please Please Me" - 2:03
      • [edit] Side Two
      • 1. "Love Me Do" - 2:22
      • 2. "P.S. I Love You" - 2:05
      • 3. "Baby It's You" (Mack David/Barney Williams/Burt Bacharach) - 2:38
      • 4. "Do You Want to Know a Secret?" - 1:59
      • 5. "A Taste of Honey" (Bobby Scott/Ric Marlow) - 2:05
      • 6. "There's a Place" - 1:52
      • 7. "Twist and Shout" (Phil Medley/Bert Russell) - 2:33
      Ok, so nearly half the songs are covers of other musicians. Now I would like to ask Paul how it is that a starting band (exactly like him) gets enough money to pay the licensing costs to half their songs which are covers. Was it easy for you, Paul? Would it be that easy for bands today? Shouldn't you be honored that musicians are influenced by you and worship you?

      When you look at the irony of Paul's statements considering that first album, it really makes me wonder how much money he'll need before he's a happy man. Does he realize the implications this has on the music in his country and possibly the world?
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Maxo-Texas ( 864189 )
        You are preaching to the choir.

        I'm saying it is logical that they would think things that benefit them are reasonable even if they are not. You ask 4500 artists who are making money off 50 year old copyrighted material if it is reasonable to extend the copyright and change the rules (even for dead people) and of course-- they feel it is.

        It's also logical that as a cover band performer you would feel differently.

        It's very difficult to find what is truly reasonable. Everyone asserts "Well the thing that ben
      • by BeerCat ( 685972 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:57PM (#17165302) Homepage

        When you look at the irony of Paul's statements considering that first album, it really makes me wonder how much money he'll need before he's a happy man.


        Since he is about to have half of it taken away as a divorce settlement, then the answer is probably "about twice as much as he has now"
      • As for U2.. (Score:3, Informative)

        For those unfamiliar with U2, they're the ones who made quite a tidy profit during the "Zoo TV" era, when they based their design ethic upon rapid-fire clips of other people's copyrighted material, courtesy of video cutups by the "Emergency Broadcast Network."
      • We were pretty much illegally performing songs

        Not necessarily. In the US, it's usually the venue's responsibility to get the proper ASCAP/BMI blanket licenses. It might have been illegal, but it's probably not your fault. About all you have to do is provide a songlist to the client, and I've never once been asked.

        You also may be confusing performance and making a record. Here in the US you pay a fee for the rights record and distribute a song to the publisher. This has zero to do with performance.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by monkeydo ( 173558 )
        If you were playing in bars that normally had live music (or a juke box) it's entirely possible that you were already covered under their licensing agreement.

        Mechanical royalties for authors are currently at $.09 per song. In 1963, it was $.02 per song. So $.12 of each copy of Please Please Me was paid to outside authors. Whoopdi do. Plus, since the royalties are only paid on copies sold, there's really no burden at all. In any case it's paid by the label.

        How does such ignorance get modded +5 insightfu
  • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Friday December 08, 2006 @12:50PM (#17164340) Homepage Journal

    I know that's an inflammatory statement, but law is supposed to benefit the public. If it doesn't benefit the public then there's no reason for a law to exist.

    Copyright benefits the public because it benefits everyone. But extending copyright into eternity benefits only a select few.

    I couldn't care less what 4,500 artists want. It's a tiny slice of the population. Why support their greed? I think we can do without U2 anyway :D

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by HoboCop ( 987492 )
      I care some.. If we don't protect the artists rights then we are effectively discouraging people from creating art. Being a musician today is already a dicey proposition at best. Only a very select few manage to make a reasonable living. I'm sure there are many people who would make excellent musicians who simply decided there were better and easier ways to survive. I feel like an artist should retain ownership of their creations until death, plus however many years the law decides after that.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Duds ( 100634 ) *
        Until death is fine by me, but not one second longer.
      • Survival in the long term surely means reliable provision of future wealth, such as a pension. The creator needs to know that they're going to survive, rather than survive if they get lucky. Besides, to encourage serious, honest art, you need to encourage the artist to take risks that they might never be popular. Long term copyright doesn't do that.

        Property is both an individual right and a social concept. There are forms of property that are not recognised because to do so would bring more harm than
        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          This is not a question of the artists, This is about the British Phonographic Association keeping rights to songs. The article states that they already keep the copyrights till thier death +50 years. The Recording Association wants to extend that another 45 years so They, the Association, can make money off of it, NOT THE ARTISTS.
      • If we don't protect the artists rights then we are effectively discouraging people from creating art.

        Right is a stupid word in this context. Calling it a legal power or some such is saner imo. If we don't have copyright, then they don't have the legal power which we then don't protect. Simple. Taking away copyright wouldn't be a discouragement per se, but rather a lack of encouragement by means of monopoly. I do believe if copyright wouldn't give so much profit to authors they'd be encouraged to produce st

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by fmackay ( 23605 )
        I'm sure there are many people who would make excellent musicians who simply decided there were better and easier ways to survive.
        I doubt it. I want to listen to music made by people who are driven to create great art without regard for the rewards. There is already far too much mediocre music out there created by the careerist types you seem to want to encourage.
        • For the most part art criticism methods that require some knowledge of the artists motivation or intent when creating a work have been rejected on the basis that the art object itself should be judged on its own merits.

          Regardless, virtually all artists seek a reward of some kind. Often it is financial but just as often it is something less quantifiable. Recognition, fame, self expression.

          If all you mean is that more money can be made by selling minor variations of the same crap over and over again versus ne
        • I doubt it. I want to listen to music made by people who are driven to create great art without regard for the rewards. There is already far too much mediocre music out there created by the careerist types you seem to want to encourage.

          Yeah, whatever happened to amazing musicians like Bach? Owait, he wrote his music on commission for various churches. Sellout.

          Creators who can't make a living off their creations either don't create, or don't survive. If you think the great artists of the past created the things they did solely for the artistic value, you're very naive. You think the Sistine Chapel was done as a favor?

      • by Shawn is an Asshole ( 845769 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:18PM (#17164734)
        I agree we need to protect artists rights (I'm a musician, and am currently recording a cd). However, the current copyright is simply ridiculous. Life plus 75 years (US)? 95 for corporate works (US)? That's out of line.

        What I'd like to see is: 25 years. One renewal for an additional 20. That gives 45 years total. If you haven't made enough off of something in in 45 years, tough shit. Do something new.
        • Copyright schemes (Score:3, Interesting)

          One idea I've had is to have maybe 20 years of "free" copyright, after that, the work would have an (owner-stated) value, and be taxed annually at some percentage of that value, and any person or group of persons could, by paying the stated value, "buy" the work into the public domain. There'd be an outside limit on the length of copyright, too, but it wouldn't have to be too short (though shorter than the current US system, IMO), perhaps the greater of 75 years from creation or creator's life+20 years for
        • Personally, I have no problems with artists retaining rights to their works at least until death. Corporate ownership is a load of crap, however.
        • by geekoid ( 135745 )
          based on the number, you could cut that in ahlf, and all but the top 100 artists would get exactly the same amount of money. I say 14 years, then that's it.

      • by Dr Reducto ( 665121 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:19PM (#17164748) Journal
        So if it's really about helping artists not get screwed over, maybe target record companies instead of increasing copyright.

        Record companies are somehow able to sell a million records and still have the artists owe THEM money after all that. That's a much more real problem than lost sales.
      • by Lumpy ( 12016 )
        I care some.. If we don't protect the artists rights then we are effectively discouraging people from creating art.

        you are 100% correct. As we all know art, music, and literature did not exist before copyright laws.

        That is the world you believe you live in.... It's very different from reality where artists create in spite of copyright.

        • by s20451 ( 410424 )
          you are 100% correct. As we all know art, music, and literature did not exist before copyright laws. That is the world you believe you live in.... It's very different from reality where artists create in spite of copyright.

          Get a better argument. DVD burners and the internet did not exist before copyright. Neither did the printing press, nor science as we know it today, for that matter.

          In distant history, professional musicians were paid by the church, the government, or by wealthy patrons. Would you lik
          • In distant history, professional musicians were paid by the church, the government, or by wealthy patrons. Would you like to live in a world where all art is produced with the approval of these three groups?

            I identified this as a logical fallacy [virtuescience.com] almost immediately but now I'm having a hard time figuring out which one it is. Looks like my bullshitometer is working nicely today, but it's not very specific.

            Look, this is a bunch of horse shit because in distant history, the only people who had any money

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by s20451 ( 410424 )
              Yes, I agree I was being lazy, but so is everyone else in this thread.

              Nobody asks the right questions about copyright. These arguments which revolve around "people will still make art" are mostly nonsense, because they ignore both the quantity, quality, and cultural significance of art. Of course people will still write and perform music even if they can't do it as their day job. But a lot of it might suck compared to contemporary music.

              Again using a historical example, the better question is: how many a
              • These are culturally important people who can't charge for performances or sell T-shirts.

                No, but they can charge artists for their compositions. And the artists can charge for performances and sell T-shirts. If it's not worth it to the artist to pay for the material, then it's probably not worth it for society to support the composer.

                You do not have a right to make a profit. Asking for legislation to protect, support, or create a business model that cannot otherwise succeed is not reasonable in the l

              • by Znork ( 31774 )
                "The answer is almost none."

                Actually, I'd suspect the answer is most. The vast majority of actual artists and writers do not get much out of the current system; the current system is heavily biased towards those who can buy the commercial channels like radio, do media blitzes and appropriate the vast majority of capital flowing in through various copyright related levies. Many artists and artists/composers gain most income through touring; something they'd actually get more money out of if they didnt have t
          • In distant history, professional musicians were paid by the church, the government, or by wealthy patrons.

            ...who in turn used their work and its popularity to advance their own financial, political, or other interests.

            Now, they are paid by wealthy record companies, publishing houses, and wealthy individual patrons, who use the work and its popularity to further their own financial, political, and other interests.

            Copyright sure changed a lot!

      • If you can't profit well from your work in 50 years then 90 years isn't going to help you. I don't see how the possibility of 50 years of profits is going to turn away anyone from creating art. The thing that discourages people is the likelyhood of making any money no matter what the copyright period is.

        IP laws aren't God given rights, they are just laws. Lifetime exclusive ownership is a flimsy proposition and any time after that is corporate gouging.
        • If you can't profit well from your work in 50 years then 90 years isn't going to help you. I don't see how the possibility of 50 years of profits is going to turn away anyone from creating art.
          If you are an artist who is significantly progressive (ahead of the times) 50 years may not be nearly enough for your works to be recognized by the general population. Hell, it's possible noone will notice your work until after you're in the ground. It's happened before...
      • I care some.. If we don't protect the artists rights then we are effectively discouraging people from creating art. Being a musician today is already a dicey proposition at best.

        Have the term of copyright be 20, or 50, or 75, or life+75 years won't change that; the majority of creative works makes most of the money they will make in the first few years after they are created; the ones that continue making money after that tend to also be the ones that are wildly successful initially.

        Whether mega-successful

    • by lixee ( 863589 )

      I know that's an inflammatory statement, but law is supposed to benefit the public. If it doesn't benefit the public then there's no reason for a law to exist.

      I'm afraid the reality is that laws benefits the ones who make them. Until we get rid of software patents and similar aberrations in IP laws, money will keep flowing to the wealthy and lawyers while hindering development.

      Why support their greed? I think we can do without U2 anyway :D

      I can live ... With or without U(2).

      • U2 and Roger Waters are just looking out for the futures of their great-great-great-granchildren and the corporations for which we stand.
    • by Shimmer ( 3036 )
      Why support their greed?

      Is it greedy to want to retain control to your own work? I might disagree with Paul Mcartney on the law, but I wouldn't call his position greedy. I (and you) would probably feel the same way in his situation.
      • Why should he (or his estate) retain any rights after he is dead? He's profited handsomly for many decades. At some point they have to stop sucking on the teet of work they did 50+ years ago. He may not like it but the laws should serve society as a whole and not just the recording industry.
      • You will be retired when your copyright expires, what do you want the money for - to feed the businesses that actually make money out of your copyrighted work? This is just stupid, half the problem with modern musical art is that its warped into appalling crap by the businesses that make money out of the genre. Do we want to put more art into their hands? I dont think so. It may be tough to make money in the music business for the artists but I dont think we are going to help them by handing yet more influe
      • Yes, it is greedy, as the 'right' to control your work is nothing but a construct of the government - supposedly to benefit society as a whole. Taking from the public that which is the other end of the bargain for an additional 40 years is certainly greedy!
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by GeckoX ( 259575 )
      Law is supposed to benefit the public...interesting edict there...The general public? Interested public parties? Random sampling of the public?

      Now, I do get what you're suggesting, however you're ignoring a very important part of your argument...the artist's ARE part of the public. Copyright laws are (intended) to protect THEIR rights...not some magical right of the people that did not create the music to have free access to someone else's work.

      Don't take that wrong, I'm not discussing the validity of copyr
      • by Abcd1234 ( 188840 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:19PM (#17164742) Homepage
        This is a very important distinction, and I'm shocked that you've been modded to +5 insightful for providing completely misleading information.

        And I'm shocked you misunderstand copyright so fundamentally. The function of copyright is to provide artists with protection for their works. The theory is that this stimulates the creation of new works, thus enriching society. And *that* is the benefit to society at large (the creation of new works). Thus, the idea that "copyright does NOT exist to benefit you" is flat out ridiculous.

        The problem is that extending copyrights will likely do nothing to spur creation of new works. All it will likely do is place more power in the hands of corporations and the rich, who can afford to litigate to ensure their works are suitably protected. Meanwhile, if the extension the retroactive (as was the extension introduced in the Sonny Bono Act), materials from the public domain will be *removed*, which amounts to theft, IMHO.
        • by NormalVisual ( 565491 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @02:46PM (#17165900)
          The problem is that extending copyrights will likely do nothing to spur creation of new works

          It also doesn't allow existing works to become part of the body of art which current and future artists can draw from for inspiration. There's absolutely no good reason that someone shouldn't be able to go out and hack on or cover Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon", for instance. The music is more than 30 years old, the group of people that created that artisic work doesn't exist anymore, and sales from that album do absolutely zero to encourage more works at this point - there hasn't been a Floyd album released in almost 13 years, and there aren't too many visible on the horizon.

          The ridiculous terms do nothing to benefit the greater good, which should have been the only factor to look at when the extensions were considered. The financial well being of any single artist or company pales in comparison to the cultural damage being done to the rest of society.
      • by cduffy ( 652 )
        At least in the US, what you're saying is at odds with the documented intent of those who added the Copyright Clause to the Constitution. Their intent was to encourage creation of new works and inventions -- and by doing so, to benefit the public at large. Do copyright and patent laws benefit artists and inventors? Absolutely. Should they be written with the artists and inventors in mind, as opposed to the wellbeing of the general public? No. The goal, as immortalized in the Constitution (and more extensive
        • I think it exceedingly unfortunate that our lawmakers have forgotten this.


          I don't think they've forgotten it, I just think they don't care.

          Advancing the "arts and sciences" doesn't add to their campaign warchest. Advancing the interests of Disney and the RIAA does.
      • All I'm arguing is that copyright does NOT exist to benefit you, unless you have created something you wish to have protected via copyright. Rather, it exists to protect the artist FROM you.

        I think you're pretty much missing the point of copyright. Having some copyright can benefit you even if you do not create content by providing motivation to other people to create the kind of works that are covered by copyright.

        Yes, the law should protect both the majority and the minority. Copyright DOES protect

    • by cliffski ( 65094 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:08PM (#17164600) Homepage
      I understand your feelings, even though I'm a pro-copyright games developer who relies on the concept for a living.
      The thing is, you don't often hear from people who create content, and will defend it 'up to a point'. The only voices you hear are the 'everyone download my stuff' anti-copyright gang, and the 'its my property for the next thousand years' brigade.
      Judging how long something should remain copyrighted is tricky, and probably should vary depending on the content type. Some things are useless after a few years, some things cost megabucks to make and payoff slowly. The idea that ANYTHING should remain in copyright for over 50 years is just bullshit though. If, as a creative person, I can't come up with another good idea every 50 years, I need to find another flipping job.
      My own field is PC games, and I reckon 15 years is a reasonable length of time. Nobody is making real cash on games on older than this, and if they are, they probably made a shedload at release time.
      If theres a petition from content creators requesting that copyright NOT be lengthened, just point me at it. We need emphasis on shorter copyright periods, but better enforcement (and fair use for format-shifting etc).
      But U2 can just fuck off.
    • I know it's a troll point of view at /. but for every McCartney there's a thousand artists who are struggling and barely make it with the present system. It isn't greed on their part trying to cheat you out of some implied right of free downloads. If you're taking their work who's cheating here? There's always some one making money at it and trust me the day the copyrights run out there will be someone releasing $5 compliations of old classics and making money at it. Who has more right the artists or the on
      • I know it's a troll point of view at /. but for every McCartney there's a thousand artists who are struggling and barely make it with the present system. It isn't greed on their part trying to cheat you out of some implied right of free downloads. If you're taking their work who's cheating here?

        This isn't about taking their work. This is about preventing copyright from being extended past the fifty year mark at which it currently resides in the UK, which is already too long.

        I know it'll get modded do

      • I know it's a troll point of view at /. but for every McCartney there's a thousand artists who are struggling and barely make it with the present system.

        And you think that extending copyright by another 45 years is going to make these struggling artists struggle any less?

        Just because you create content doesn't mean that you deserve a big pile of money set at your doorstep for life. In terms of music, some songs are hits, but a huge majority are forgettable, and won't make the artist much of anything af

      • "out of some implied right of free downloads"

        The right you describe does exist, it is the natural state of things, and is called the right to access ones cultural heritage.

        Think of all music ever written AND released to the public at large as a National Park. In principle everyone should be able to go use the National Park as and when they wish. The big difference is the National Park doesn't constantly just get bigger, as if by magic. But if it could, and we could incentivise people to make it bigger, perh
      • You know, there are people out there who know full well that they are simply being cheap when they d/l tons of music or movies for free. Oh yes, unlicensed anime are not available in my country so I'm justified in downloading them... good corner case. Everything else, though, is pure and simple theft, motivated by a perceived lack of victims and virtual impunity.
        But nobody wants to shaft the artists - in fact, some might even buy special editions of their works after years of piracy, or support them by buy
      • I know it's a troll point of view at /. but for every McCartney there's a thousand artists who are struggling and barely make it with the present system.

        And extending copyright terms helps people who can't make money with a 50-year copyright term how, exactly?

        Extending copyright terms helps (if any artists), the most successful under the current system, and by reducing the need for recording companies and other gatekeepers of the artistic world to make deals with new artists to get exclusive content, hurts

    • Personally, I blame the French. As near as I can tell, it's the French that gave us the concept of "Moral rights to a work." Or, the idea that once you create something, it's wrong for anyone else to ever touch it. That and Mickey Mouse pretty much explains the current state of copyright around the world. Just once, I'd like to see one of those spoiled billionaires come out and say, "The public domain is a good thing. I look forward to seeing the world enjoy my art unfettered by the chains of major med
  • by dysk ( 621566 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @12:51PM (#17164352)
    a host of musicians (over 4,500 of them, including poor, starving stars such as U2, Paul McCartney and Peter Gabriel) have taken out a big ad in the FT to back the call for an extension to copyright in the UK. Allegedly, that's what the British public wants
    I guess the starving musicians have to spend big money take out an ad to tell the public what they already want.
  • by wsherman ( 154283 ) * on Friday December 08, 2006 @12:54PM (#17164388)

    From Lawrence Lessig's blog [lessig.org]:

    As reported yesterday, there was an ad in the FT listing 4,000 musicians who supported retrospective term extension. If you read the list, you'll see that at least some of these artists are apparently dead (e.g. Lonnie Donegan, died 4th November 2002; Freddie Garrity, died 20th May 2006). I take it the ability of these dead authors to sign a petition asking for their copyright terms to be extended can only mean that even after death, term extension continues to inspire.
    • Oh my god, they actually copied Sideshow Bob. Ironically that means they have violated Fox's copyright on the Simpsons.

      Sue em' Digger.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    The question whether they thought UK recording artists "should be protected for the same number of years as their American counterparts" is even more misleading than the article implies. UK recording artists have exactly the same length of copyright IN THE UK as their American counterparts and exactly the same length of copyright IN THE USA as their American counterparts. UK and American recording artists are treated identically in each market. The two markets have different rules but neither discriminates
  • by A beautiful mind ( 821714 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @12:56PM (#17164416)
    That's what the advert says. It's almost correct. Let me fix it.

    Fair use for people.
    • Fair use for people.

      You know, fair use has pretty much gone down the toilet. With the modernization of copyright law things have changed without real public consent. The truth of the matter is that music used to be a free trade type of deal, spread mainly by spoken word. Now the RIAA has taken even the ability to make tabs based on listening to albums and make those tabs public. The RIAA essentially wants to kill word of mouth or folk style passage of music.

      When I began writing a bit of a book I'd bee

  • Tag: copywrong
  • U2 = hypocrites? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by TheWoozle ( 984500 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @12:59PM (#17164446)
    Or will they donate all their posthumous royalties to that AIDS-in-Africa cause that they're always on about?
    • U2's AIDS-in-Africa cause seems to be like the standard answer on a beauty contest: "world peace".
    • I'm for a reasonable copyright term - that is, against copyright extension. But I don't get what you're trying to say here.

      What exactly is it you mean? The members of U2 have been talking about AIDS in Africa a lot, so they should be against copyright extension? The members of U2 have been talking about AIDS in Africa a lot, so they shouldn't want to make more money off their music? Or do you mean that U2 shouldn't care about AIDS in Africa if they want to make money off their music? Or perhaps you mean
  • I'm disapointed that YouGov would agree to carry out a poll like this, I fear they are essentially becoming hired guns in any flame war you need stats for...
  • by A beautiful mind ( 821714 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @12:59PM (#17164462)
    So that I can conveniently never buy _anything_ from them again.
  • by eldavojohn ( 898314 ) * <eldavojohnNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:04PM (#17164546) Journal
    ... from 50 years to 95 years.
    I hate to attack Paul McCartney because I love his music, Beatles & post-Beatles. But I think 50 years is enough. Let's say you write a song at age 20-25 like the Beatles. Well, you'd have the rights for that until you're 70. Ok, so you yourself should have ample time perform and record that song or to license it and profit from it. Paul knows a lot about this last part after suing the other Beatles for many of the McLennon songs & subsequently selling them to Michael Jackson.

    If I were a musician, I would be honored that so many people are waiting after those 50 years to use my music. The reason I feel this way and Paul doesn't is that he's going down in history as the one of the greatest singer/songwriters of all time no matter how long the copyright is held on that song. I'm not.

    But why, in God's name would he want them extended to 95 years? Well, he made quite a bit of music after the Beatles & has been touring with that on and off. Some of it good & some of it quite bad. Either way, if he wants to cash out one last time before he kicks it, the rights to those songs will fetch much more if the buyers have them for 65 more years as opposed to 20 more years.

    So that's what it's coming down to, not this 'fair play' bullshit. Paul's not hoping to be playing his music fairly after he dies ... he's just concerned about the money for these artists. And it's not money they're going to enjoy, it's money they're going to get and maybe try to pass on to their kids or something. Or buy another 1936 Rolls Royce Shadow with.

    Who knows why they claim to need this money. Especially U2, that actually shocks me. Bono used to be all about people and to hell with money. I guess that isn't true anymore though he might try to show that he wants to keep making money to help people in a country less fortunate. At least he's got that going for him.

    I saw an interview with Paul once where he basically said, "Yeah, I sold Michael Jackson the rights to these songs ... and it's too bad, you know, because I just want to play the music for my fans and have fun but I can't since I sold the rights." I guess sometimes I just have to treat them as artists with good music & just severely lacking in other departments. I think he knows exactly what he's doing and what he's done. I honestly think he's implementing publicity stunts just to work an angle of sympathy for a former Beatle. Unfortunately it's most likely going to work perfectly for him.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      From the second article:

      In reality, songwriters already have a 70 year copyright - that is the length of their lifetime plus 70 years; the 50-year rule applies to recording owners like, er, the BPI's major label donors.

      The musicians already have the copyright for their entire lives, PLUS 70 years after they die.
    • Let's say you write a song at age 20-25 like the Beatles. Well, you'd have the rights for that until you're 70.

      Wrong. In the UK, he has the right for 70 years after his death. It's his record company that can only retain copyright for 50 years.

      Actually I see that as a good thing - if they don't sell out to RIAA they can keep making money until well after they're dead, but if they do then hell, let's cut the copyright to 5 years.
    • Paul knows a lot about this last part after suing the other Beatles for many of the McLennon songs & subsequently selling them to Michael Jackson.

      Paul McCartney sued the Beatles to dissolve their partnership because he objected to the other 3 naming Allen Klein as their manager over his objections. Not only did Paul win in court, he was proven right that Allen Klein was a bad choice. Paul McCartney NEVER sued the Beatles over songs he wrote. Making that up doesn't make it true.

      Sigh. Again, you are
    • Who knows why they claim to need this money. Especially U2, that actually shocks me. Bono used to be all about people and to hell with money.

      This is a philosophy which can only be genuinely pursued by two types of people: the obscenely wealthy, and the utterly destitute. Forgive me if I have significantly more respect for Buddhist monks who have eschewed all personal property save the clothes on their backs, than I do for a rich jackass who only doesn't care about money because he has so much he'll never be able to spend it all. The latter is not a transcendence of materialism. It's merely the difficulties of materialism being irrelevant. When

  • Money. And, if Lewis Black has taught us anything, it is this:

    "People seem to think whoever has the most when they die wins...well, your dead fucknut. So...you didn't win."
  • by styryx ( 952942 )
    Fine. Hell, extend it to however long you DON'T want me listening to your 'music'. There are ALWAYS other sources, stunts like this really inspire people to hunt them out. Then what will your copyright be worth?
  • by draevil ( 598113 )
    What is increasingly at risk here is the very important connection between a "right" to protection in law and the reason for the existance of that right.

    The protection of copyright (and other IP forms for that matter) is intended to provide a reward to those who would contribute to the public good; to culture, society, the fine arts and our understanding of the human condition.

    To this extent there is a good basis for creating a social contract whereby we protect in our courts of law the creative work of an
  • by dafz1 ( 604262 )
    Why not make it until death of the artist(or all group members)? Or, in case of sale of rights, a fixed period(like 10 years). If they were desperate enough to sell them, or stupid enough as in the case of Sir Paul, the buyer would have a fixed time in which to benefit. Why would you buy a catalog, unless to profit from it in the short term(except buying the Beatles catalog)?

    I believe artists are entitled to keep the rights to their works for their lifetime. They made it, so they should be able to benef
  • Ian Anderson (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Skjellifetti ( 561341 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @01:32PM (#17164954) Journal
    Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull wrote an op-ed in the Financial Times [j-tull.com] in favor of an extension.

    Best responce was a letter that the FT published that basically said:

    Hey Ian, You want to make more money? THEN WRITE SOME NEW SONGS!

    Honestly, these songwriters, even the great ones, are thick as a brick sometimes.
  • It takes you more than fifty years to profit from a song.
  • These 4500 "artists" know that this 95 years will not create new incentive for them to create or enhance artistic works. (incentive when they are dead?). They know that this only serves to create money-for-nothing for their great-great-grandchildren: Or to create money-for-nothing for the owning corporation. They, themselves are probably also assuming to be rewarded soon for the corporate loyalty.

    One casualty here is artistic creation. Innovation incentive for the heirs is limited due to inherited wealth.
    Bu
  • Why would artists be about setting up copyright beyond their lifetime? To allow their families to inherit those rights?

    All of this goes way beyond the original purpose of copyright. I think before any further changes are made, I think the purpose of copyright should be re-examined. Copyright was originally intended to better assure that artists are compensated for their work, but somehow, non-artists have managed to turn this into an unforseen industry; an industry that seems to harm the quality of artis
  • by russ1337 ( 938915 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @02:46PM (#17165906)
    If copyright is not extended it will have a huge negative effect on the record companies / British Phonographic Industry (BPI) and RIAA groups and content distributors, beyond that of royalties paid.

    Content in the public domain waters down the argument for requiring ALL content is to be 'protected'. If half of the worlds music was public domain, lobbyists would have a hard time persuading lawmakers to put restrictions on ALL devices. This has been evident with the RIAA continuously argue why DRM is required for ALL music to prevent copyright infringement. These arguments usually fail to recognize the existence of non-copyrighted music (Creative Commons etc), and certainly make no provision for it in their argument or 'industry drafted bills' (e.g DMCA). This results in systems like the Zune wi-fi sharing system which applies DRM when transferring songs, whether the media requires protection or not, and with total disregard for other licences such as 'copyleft' which may expressly forbid it.

    We've seen from the Napster and Gokster cases in the 'war on file sharing' argued that "ALL file sharing is infringement of copyright", and fails to recognize the legal uses of file sharing systems. Again, if half of the worlds music was public domain, media conglomerates' argument is significantly watered down. Services like Youtube and Google Video have already been targeted, and we've seen media companies desire to shutdown the service altogether although Youtube and Google video are exceptional in that they've been careful to prevent copyright infringement from the start, and the result has been for the media companies attempts to re-define infringement. (i.e teenagers lip-sinking songs). Again their aim is to prove the majority of content that is free is infringing copyright and the services providing it should be shut-down.

    Big Media have a very huge stake in extending the duration of copyright, well beyond the immediate issue of royalties for artists. (The amount of these royalties that is passed to artists is another issue altogether). The music industry and BPI will likely "pull out all the stops" to prevent an extension of copyright, which we are starting to see it with the use of artists that have done very very well out of record company who may 'win the hearts and minds of the people'. Big Media will be lobbying politicians as fast as they can, and will no doubt us scare tactics where possible. If all this British music is released into public domain, it will make shutting down file sharing networks much harder.

    The BPI (and RIAA) have responsibilities "in the collection, administration and distribution of music licenses and royalties" which relies on a vast library of content being under their control. Music that us currently in their control placed in the public domain erodes their breadth of responsibility and will ultimately affect their cut of the royalties.

    The extension of copyright by 50 years has far further implications than just the royalties paid to the artists. It weakens many of the arguments of the BPI and RIAA groups, and reducing their value and their income. This argument is not about the artists getting more money, it is about the BPI and RIAA retaining their value and ability to "fight the crime of music theft".

    They cannot fight the "crime" if the music is free to copy and share.
  • ...Why did they release those songs then? Obviously they had no problems with the length of the copyright back then, and they released their music with the knowledge that at certain point in time their music wont be protected anymore. And they have had decades of time to profit from their music. And now that the time is up, they feel that the rules should be changed since they obviously have not profited enough.

    Well, fuck them. Seriously. They make it sound like they are getting screwed here. No, WE are get
    • I believe once material is released into the public domain it can be freely copied and made use of in ways completely unforseen by the creator.

      For example, it would be no problem to use public-domain Beatles music as the sound track for a series of sodomy rape movies. While some would consider this to be a form of advertising, it probably would be so utterly negative that all Beatles music would be banned from public playing.

      While you own the copyright, you can sue such folks into oblivion. However, about
  • by Nom du Keyboard ( 633989 ) on Friday December 08, 2006 @03:22PM (#17166330)
    One thing the American revolution changed was the European practice of the time (circa 1776 and back to Gutenberg at least) of Forever Copyrights. Publishing houses of the time owned copyrights in perpetuity, and if they didn't want to republish a book, it didn't get republished. The American Constitution changed that with its grant of rights for a limited period of time only.

    Now the content industries seem trying to push us back to those bad old days once more. It was a bad idea then. It's still a bad idea now. And the worst idea of all is making them retroactive. Those works were already created. They don't need this extension to encourage that creative effort. Even if the laws were changed, they should only apply to new works.

    As for Sir Paul, he should just shut the F* up! He's made his pile and can't claim poverty in my eyes. In fact, I rather like him less today than yesterday due to his participation in all this.

  • I thought the main reason we have extended copyrights was to get them in line with other countries... I personally don't see how the public is served by a term any longer than the original 28 years. If you haven't made enough money off your copyrighted works by then, I doubt the extra you make will further encourage you to create more works.

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