HP's Windows Bundle Trouble 697
narramissic writes "A French consumer group has filed 3 lawsuits against HP, saying the company's practice of selling consumer PCs with Windows pre-installed violates a French law that 'prohibits linking the functionality of a product to another product' — not to mention that consumers wind up paying for an unwanted OS. For its part, HP contends that it is not in violation of the law because the OS is integral to the PC. 'The PC without an OS is not a product because it doesn't work,' said Alain Spitzmuller, legal affairs director for HP France. 'We believe the market is for products that work.'"
Foot, may I introduce... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Foot, may I introduce... (Score:5, Funny)
Unfortunately, it works very well. As a host for botnets, for example.
Re:Foot, may I introduce... (Score:5, Funny)
(since their mothers' basements do not have any)
Isn't that what got IBM into hot water? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Isn't that what got IBM into hot water? (Score:5, Informative)
There is a difference there. OS X and the Mac are both made by Apple. However HP doesn't make Windows. They require you to purchase it, but they don't make it. I think that's what makes this illegal (I live in the US, so obviously I don't know this law). It's the fact that it's two parties. The HP computer won't function without another company's product, but they don't give you a choice as to which company (MS, or buy a Linux distro or something else).
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That seems like it covers pretty much every Windows owner too, eh?
Particularly if you consider preloading as having it set up for them by an it geek.
Heck, for my own anecdotal evidence I can say I dont know _anyone_ at _all_ who has actually bought Windows to install on a PC. I do, however, know quite a lot of people who have downloaded Linux to install. And I do know a whole lot of people who have paid for Windows they're not using, as
It has a bios, doesn't it? (Score:5, Insightful)
It may not have all the functionality that someone wants, but it does work.
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That being said, I do agree that PC manufacturers need to offer choice of operating system at the time of purchase. But it's not entirely HP's fault... HP doesn't want to be put at a competitive disadvantage by being forced to pay higher prices for Windows on their machines, which would drive their prices up. France should be goin
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Tank != 3-year supply (Score:4, Interesting)
BIOS is a tank of gas. Windows is a 3-year gas card to one brand of gas station.
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Yes it does, and I'm outraged! I do not want to be forced to use the products of monopolists like Phoenix and Award.
I want HP to offer me the a choice of open source BIOSs for any PC I buy from them regardless of the implications for function and support efficiency.
I want the bios chip to be blank so I can flash it with the bios of my choice.
That's it, I'm forming a consumer group and suing!
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Reboot and Select proper Boot Device (Réinitialisation et dispositif approprié choisi d'initialisation )
Don't you think he might call HP and say "My PC doesn't work!" ???
Have you ever considered this; Most people want "Windows" - if PC's didn't come with it would Microsoft make more selling retail copies at retail prices vs the couple of extra bucks they get now, with the de facto "Windows tax".
On
Walking the user through starting a live CD (Score:3, Insightful)
but when Joe Sixpack (or, in this case, Pierre 2 Litres) turns on his new PC and it says:
Reboot and Select proper Boot Device (Réinitialisation et dispositif approprié choisi d'initialisation )
Don't you think he might call HP and say "My PC doesn't work!" ???
People don't call Sony when their PlayStation game console says "Please insert a game". Here's what the HP tier-1 phone tech support person would say:
Press the button on your computer's DVD drive to open the tray. Find the CD labeled "Linux Operating System", L-I-N-U-X, that came in your computer's resource pack, and place it in the tray. Press the button again to close the tray. Now press the power button to start the CD. Then just do what the screen says.
Then what's the difference? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes but Joe Sixpack suffers from a common disease when he sits infront of a computer, the dreaded Luv Vacancies Brain Syndrome. Yet he doesn't suffer it from anything else.
Then we have to figure out why Joe Sixpack freezes in front of an empty PC but not in front of an empty game console. Perhaps it's because the BIOS of the PS1 and PS2 game consoles has some sort of user interface, as if it were a Built-In Operating System rather than just a Basic Input-Output System. Adding a friendlier BIOS UI to the commodity personal computer might make it easier for Joe Sixpack to realize that he can put in an OS CD.
Re:It has a bios, doesn't it? (Score:5, Interesting)
At the very least, they should give the user a choice, thereby no longer linking the hardware to that one specific piece of software. Consider one of those online confur-o-matic things. The base PC models should come with a cheaper/free OS like linux, and (as much as I hate and disagree with the phrasing) users could choose to "upgrade" to windows.
We believe the market is for products that work (Score:5, Funny)
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The paper analogy doesn't really work because paper is a consumable, so once you finish off your box of (mandated) Weyerhauser paper, you can buy the rest of your supplies from Scott, or whomever.
This is especially a problem because, nowadays, MS-Windows is a significant part of the price of a low-end PC. This might be more like buying a $200 printer and fi
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Speaking of which, isn't it annoying when you buy a printer and it doesn't come with a USB cable? HP, I'm looking at you. Maybe in France they include the necessary-to-function-beyond-printing-out-test-pa
Complicated things? (Score:2, Insightful)
This sounds like a very confusing and difficult place to do business. Well, considering their unemployment rate, maybe it is.
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that is completly wrong and shows that you have complete ignorance no how computers work.
Hint: you can start a computer without an OS, and it works, otherwise how could you install an OS?
As for your pizza counter arguement, you are missing one important fact: You ASK for onions with your pizza. If HP want to sell the OS seperate it can. They can give you the option for it to come bundled or not, and that's fine to. What they can not do is mandate you must get wi
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A computer without an OS is not functional. An OS without a computer is not functional. It's a stupid law.
How functional is a DVD-player without a DVD ? Or a CD-player without a CD ?
Is it OK if all DVD-players included a a copy of the Lion King. And all CD-players are sold with a copy of Celine Dions greatest hits ?
Insightful? (Score:3, Insightful)
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A computer without an OS is not functional. An OS without a computer is not functional. It's a stupid law.
By that reasoning, since a new tire needs to be on a wheel to be functional, the HP Tire Co can require a customer to buy a wheel from them whenever he buys one of their tires. Even though the wheel was not made by them, and without regard to whether the lug pattern of the wheel that they provide will fit the axle of the vehicle the customer wants to put the tire on. Yeah, there is something stupid h
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Oh yes, the "Microsoft tax". Always a winning argument.
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Or go after MSFT and prevent them from doing shady deals where they can offer mass discounts to OEMs if OEMs sell you a keyboa
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Re:Complicated things? (Score:5, Informative)
In (Soviet) Finland, it's illegal to bind the sales of cell phones to a certain network. It's exactly the same logic as with computers and operating systems.
It isn't really applied to computers though; when I bought my current laptop last year, I made a vague attempt at Windows refund, only to get a reply along the lines that computer+OS is a single product. I'm mainly pissed off of the fact that this probably counts for the Windows market share, even if I never accepted the EULA.
However, there is a recent exception to allow such binding for 3G phones. It's meant to accelerate the adoption of new technology, since the 3G phones are comparatively expensive. So instead of paying the full price of the phone, it's spread over a, say, 24-month service contract.
The honest truth about France (Score:2, Funny)
IBM/Lenovo is worse (Score:2)
More specifically, (Score:5, Informative)
In addition to this while the EULA specifically mentions a refunding process, resellers won't honour it.
Both the ministry of commerce and the bureau in charge of the consumer protection have given advice on the matter to the effect that the OS and the PC are two distinct products and that the sale of one cannot be bound to the other. So normally any PC for sale should have its price listed as X + Y + Z where X is the machine, Y the OS and possibly Z the extra software. However since the resellers won't comply, the courts will have to sort it out.
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Bad analogy (Score:5, Insightful)
better analogy (was Re:Bad analogy) (Score:3, Interesting)
it is not required that you buy a dvd of a movie when buying a new dvd player. Certainly
the new dvd player is useless and performs no function until such a time as you load a
dvd of some content. One can view the pc in a similar manner - it plays content, be
that the windows os, linux, bsd or your own home grown asm os.
"doesn't work" (Score:4, Interesting)
In other news, auto dealers are now obliged to sell cars with all the gasoline they'll ever need to run, CD players must come with the complete works of modern music prepackaged (RIAA fees included), and TV sets have to carry recordings of all future programmes to be aired.
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My Questions to Alain Spitzmuller... (Score:2)
How many cars and trucks are sold in France without a driver? By his reasoning, a vehicle without a driver is not a product because it doesn't work.
How many pastry ovens are sold in France without a heat source? By his reasoning, a pastry oven without gas or electricity is not a product because it doesn't work.
How many wine glasses are sold in France without wine? By his reasoning, an wine galss without wine in it is not a product because it doesn't work.
I can't think of an example involving cheese
Not a bad arguement (Score:3, Insightful)
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So what you're saying is, to paraphrase, "basic computer + user who knows nothing about PCs = PROBLEM" - I'm not sure why you bothered to mention Linux. Unless the parent has a valid point.
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Let me enlighten HP! (Score:2)
I beg to challenge HP on this: -
A PC without an OS can actually work, by allowing the installation of another OS without much hassle. Here, working should be interpreted as the actual PC being able to respond as expected to the user when switched on, instead of displaying Window
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A PC without an OS generally shows a black screen with "No Boot Record Found" or something like that in white letters. Are you really willing to pay $500+ for a machine that can only do that? That seems pretty absurd to me. I've never seen anybody staring at a monitor like that.
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Yes I am willing, for as long as I am paying *no* Windows Tax. In that case, Knoppix and other "Live CD" distros would come to the rescue.
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Yes [knoppix.net]
No! (Score:2)
According to who? To me, a [new] PC would be considered working if on booting, it complains about the absence of an OS, then allows me to go ahead to install one of my liking. To you, I agree it is something else and that's OK.
To some US car manufacturers, their cars are advertised as working, but in some cases, the purchasing public have been disappointed.
I also have trouble with your de
Unwanted OS? (Score:2)
I think it would be more accurate to say that consumers wind up paying for an OS that you don't want.
Great news! (Score:2, Informative)
I'm with HP/MS on this one. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think HP should sell PCs that come with other OSes (or even no OS at all) - simply because I think there is a market worth taking there. However I don't think it's for any government or "consumer group" to try and force this on a company.
To look at it another way, there are plenty of PC manufacturers that solely sell PCs with DVD writers, monitors, keyboards and/or mice. Just like an OS, none of those things are *needed* in the strictest sense, yet nobody seems to be up in arms (or rather up in lawsuits) about that.
While I've greatly enjoyed watching the anti-trust decisions go against Microsoft in the EU in recent years, it seems that those legitimate victories for consumer rights are now being turned into a witch-hunt by various organisations in Europe who see the anti-MS sentiment as a means to get their hands into Microsoft's very deep pockets.
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> consumer.
Only because he has never had the opportunity to learn that it isn't.
Also, A DVD player without DVD is not a product... (Score:5, Interesting)
A DVD player without a TV is not a product, because it doesn't work...
A toy without batteries is not a product, because it doesn't work...
While you need to go to a store to buy batteries and DVD for your non-products,
for an OS, you may not even need to go to the store. You could download one of many free Linux (or BSD or other) OS's many of which do not even need to be installed to function.
Perhaps batteries are not the best comparison.
Re:Also, A DVD player without DVD is not a product (Score:3, Insightful)
yes it does. You turn it on, you get a screen on the TV, and you even get an indcator that you don't have a disk.
"A DVD player without a TV is not a product, because it doesn't work..."
Again, I get little lights on mine, and if I put a dvd in it still sends a signal to it's output. it works fine.
"A toy without batteries is not a product, because it doesn't work..."
Of course it does, children can play with it just fine.
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Assuming HP shipped you a PC with absolutely no O.S. installed, how exactly would you go about downloading this wonderful free O.S.?
A great solution if you already have a PC. A pretty lousy one if you're picking up a phone, squeeling, "Bleep, bleep, blurrrrrrp, bleep" at it, then desperately noting down the bleeps and burps it sends
Surely they can boot from CD or floppy or USB? (Score:2)
Not to mention that saying Windows in integral is saying the PC won't work with Linux flavors, BSD flavors, or BeOS -- all of which have (or had) free distributions ready to be stuck on the hard drive by either the user or HP.
Hey HP heres an idea (Score:5, Funny)
WHICH OPERATING SYSTEM DO YOU WANT PRE-INSTALLED
( ) Windows (add $99)
( ) Red Hat Linux (add $39)
( ) Suse (add $39)
( ) NONE
And your point? (Score:3, Insightful)
So he is just trying to imply that the only thing that fits the definition of a PC OS is Windows. I call Shenanigans.
This is great (Score:3, Interesting)
Cell phones that force us to use Symbian OS instead of letting us roll our own. Cars that are bundled with Renault engines instead of letting us install one from Abarth.
hell, why not just make it illegal to assemble anything from components and let us build it ourselves.
Then their system will be as tort happy as ours and we will regain some of the advantages we lost. Viva la France - Libertie, Egalitie, Unbundletie!!!
Sounds like a business opportunity (Score:3, Insightful)
Lies, damned lies, and astro-turfing. (Score:5, Interesting)
-
First is the presumption that a computer (shipped) without an OS is useless... I can pop in a Knoppix disk and do most of the things that people use their computers for without installing any OS -- banking, messaging, skype, word processing, photo editing, etc., etc.,
... His statement is false.
- second is that that that Windows is the only OS that anybody would ever want.
- third is the implicit claim of the (many) astro-turfers that this suit is meant to prevent HP from selling computers with MS-Windows.... From TFA:
Nothing wrong with consumers buying an HP computer with Windows, as long as that's what they want (which will be the case for many -- but not all -- consumers).
It's more like if every major hospital in the country forced children born there to be baptized as Roman Cathoic -- and required that the parents pay a tithe to the Roman Catholic Church for the 'privilege'.Now, yes, you can turn around and have the child declared Baptist, Lutheran, Jewish or Muslim, etc., but you still won't get back the $75 that went to the RC church.... and, for some people, just having the taint of the RC church on their children is almost as bad as being declared pagan. -- and, for some people, explaining to your parents back home why their grandchild's Birth Certificate says Roman Catholic is going to be, uhm, delicate.
Of course you also have the option of having your child born at home, but some people really like the convenience and safety of a large hospital.
[I'm RC, myself, so I can (I hope) get away with this analogy.]
ACCC (Score:5, Insightful)
If simply all computer vendors were legally obliged to itemise the computer and operating system in all advertising, *and* make the operating system optional, it would immediately level the playing field for all competitors.
Our government departments are, indeed, in Microsoft's pocket. Heck, our entire country is in America's pocket.
Product Support (Score:4, Insightful)
If grandma has a choice between:
A) Desktop + Windows for $800
B) Desktop + Linux for $600
At that point, HP's costs increase trying to support Grandma, or HP risks seriously upsetting a customer and possibly getting into further legal troubles. It's a lose-lose for HP and Grandma.
A business should never have be forced to give its customers a choice. If it makes business sense to only bundle Windows, then it should be free to do that. Let someone else sell a Linux box, take the risk, and see what happens.
I want a computer without a BIOS, too.. (Score:3, Insightful)
What if I don't want an optical drive? How dare they bundle a DVD burner (ie. another product) with the computer?
Netboot the PC to prove it doesn't need an OS (Score:3, Interesting)
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Interesting. I had no idea that staring at "O/S Not Found" was that interesting. Do tell me more.
You might not care for HP's choice of OS, but a PC needs an OS or it just doesn't work. You're free to buy your PC from someone OTHER than HP, and the law should not force HP to sell you what they don't want to.
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Yes, you can do something with it. You can take another computer, copy a bootloader to some form of media, boot that computer off of it, and install your own OS. It is functional enough to boot off of CD's, which I consider "working".
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And which laymen consider "not working", or at best "working too hard".
Do you honestly think it should be mandated that computers must come OS-free? And I'm not talking about "should be" in terms of how it would reduce the inept-user population, I'm talking about "should be" in terms of freedom and government non-interference. You are free to go buy a c
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Put another way, if my computer smokes and I already own a valid Windows license, it seems reasonable that I should be able to buy a replacement PC from the same manufacturer sans Windows and install my existing licensed copy. That said, I would hope that different rules apply if the same manufacturer creates both the hardware and software (e.g. Apple, Sun, IBM's server hardware). Otherwise, that could really turn into a mess.
You know... probably easier to just change the law.
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I think it should be mandated that computers can be purchased OS-free for a price that is less than the price of one with the OS by a difference of the retail price of the OS. I think people should have the choice.
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
You might not like paying for Windows in some way, but in effect it lowers the cost of your PC, odd as it may sound.
Either pay more (or at worst get no reduction in cost), or just nuke windows off the drive when you get it.
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
That is absolutely ridiculous! HP doesn't pay retail price for every copy of Windows they put on their computers so why should they dock that price?
Having Windows XP on a new computer probably only raises the price $10-$25 if even that much.
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Funny)
That may explain why this French consumer group is suing HP instead of Newegg.
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Re:He's an idiot (Score:4, Informative)
This lawsuit isn't just aimed at HP. Once HP is forced to sell their machines with a choice of Windows or not, all it will take is a whisper from my lawyer to get a similarly egalitarian treatment from Dell, Gateway and any of the other Tier 1 and Tier 2 computer manufacturers.
It's one thing to recommend MS-Windows as the OS of choice. It's something else, entirely, to mandate MS-Windows.
I just shouldn't be punished by HP for not wanting to use the OS that they want to hoist on me. That's what tying is, and it's illegal.Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
No. The difference is that an operating system runs on the computer. It isn't a necessary part. You could netboot the computer, or boot it off of a CD. Both are perfectly legitimate reasons for wanting to be able to buy a computer OS-free.
Re:CAR ANALOGY ALERT! (Score:4, Funny)
You're wrong, but on the right track. (Score:2)
Yes. You can install an OS on it if you want. Or you can use it to test other components.
It might have more common functionality if the OEM installed the OS, but that does not mean that it is useless without the OS pre-installed.
For example, I can purchase rice by the bag. By your "logic", that rice is useless. Or I can buy a frozen rice dish with chicken and curry (sorry, it's getting near dinner time). Both options are valid "products" and both are
Re:He's an idiot (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, one thing I can do with a computer without an OS on it is to install and run an OS on it. The OS is no more integral to the computer than the computer is to the monitor. You could equally well have said "I had no idea that staring at a blank screen with the DVI cord unplugged was that interesting". By your logic, since the monitor is useless by itself, the computer and the monitor clearly can't be separate products.
Thousands of products are unusable unless combined with another product: a flash light delivered without batteries; a trailer without a car to drag it; a bucket of paint without a brush; a fridge without food in it. The list goes on forever.
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You can chuck a Knoppix dvd in the drive and be productive within minutes.
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Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Informative)
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Interesting)
So? His statement is still false.
Even if you make the assumption that the OS is a required part of the computer, there's still no reason they should only bundle Windows. They offer a variety of case designs to choose from. nVidia or ATI graphics cards to choose from. AMD or Intel processors to choose from. So why no choice on operating system?
Re:He's an idiot (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I disagree. Every desktop oriented Linux distro in the world would be scrambling for a chance to be OEM installed on consumer PCs. And given the choice between an HP with Windows for $1000 and an identical HP with Linux for $600, I think most consumers would pick Linux every time. Assuming the in store Linux HP machines weren't purposely rigged to look bad, I think most non-gaming consumers would realize that OpenOffice, Firefox, Gaim, and Thunderbird meet all their requirements.
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Good lord. Even Walmart couldn't undercut OEM Windows on price. OEM Windows is priced for the mass market. Sales in the millions and tens of millions of units.
There is a twenty year backlist of MSDOS and Windows titles that should run just fine under 32 bit Vista. There are few genuine first-time buyers in the consumer market and many very real barriers to migra
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Also, if this winds up going before the whole EU, which I wouldn't be surprised, I can't see them ruling for HP and MS based on previous antitrust rulings.
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Oh, I dunno. (Score:3, Informative)
OS of choice, or OS of coercion? (Score:3, Insightful)
OS of choice, or OS of coercion? Do the majority of the middle class even realize that they have a choice?
People are buying Windows only because nothing else is advertised.
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OK, I can leave this thread now... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Refund? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Please Let us In! Please! I beg of you!
FRENCH GUARD:
Go Avay or I will fart in your general direction!
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